I don't think your comment on the meta thread is fair, as I edited your question once, after it already had 3 VTCs as exact duplicate.
It's a recommendation question and not a good fit for Q&A format.
I discussed it with a couple of others, and decided to place my VTC, I'm sorry that 4 VTCs had already been placed. You know as well as me that it can be reopened or you could rephrase the question.
You edited the question back to its original revision, which caused these VTCs. Regardless of which, the point of closing a question is to allow it to be edited to better reflect the answer desired. I'd already done that. And you undid it. In my opinion, because you didn't actually read the question.
If you wanted to ask, "Is there a good source of tutorials aimed at beginners?". Then that is what you should of asked. Instead your question was quite specific in finding a tutorial related to bluetooth. That may not have been how you had intended it to be read, but it still reads like that.
You took that out of the question entirely, focused on the 2 examples I used on the type of information I was looking for, and then used your edit that to say it should be closed.
"Are there step by step tutorials for beginners on things like setting up bluetooth or SSH?" is the title of the question.
No, it doesn't. And if your opinion is that it does, that does back up my opinion that you jumped in to *"fix the question" without taking the time to read it.
I could ask those questions. But they would be closed as duplicates of poorly written questions already on the site. As your response to this one indicates.
Here's a thought: If you had time to discuss it with others, how about discussing it with the OP?
The edit, back to a revision that was a poorly written question, is my problem.
But if you are that reactive, I don't think you will make a good mod, and that is why I posted in Meta.
I never asked "I have 2 problems, can you help?" READ THE TITLE!
That inflexibility is aexactly what I am talking about.
Look, I'm pissed at you over this, and I'm not going to have a constructive conversation with you about it right now. Table it. We can discuss it again in a week, or something.
No, the body elaborates on the title. But you can have your opinion, and I'll have mine. But I will not support you as a mod if this is how you deal with people you disagree with.
Later.
Listen, I would be happy to ask for a tutorial on each topic, and I likely will do so. But that wasn't what I was after, because that requires someone to sit down and duplicate work that has very likely already been done elsewhere. I wanted a ready source of info, which I was denied, because you didn't want me asking for non SE sites.
Or at least that's the way I read your comments. And according to you, it's what you read, and not what I wrote that matters, right?
And I wanted it, because I had a limited amount of time to try to get started on this project, before I had to get back to work. Waiting for someone to write a tutorial is not conducive to speed.
Perhaps I could add my 2 cents. For what it's worth.
It was decided early on that we would follow the Stackoverflow ideology of not allowing recommendation questions. To the most part they are deemed non-constructive, as they solicit debate with no identifiable answer.
However this idea evolved into its current form of allowing recommendations, so long as they are Raspberry Pi specific. For example, what piece of hardware should I buy that is known to work with the Raspberry Pi.
The problem with your question, in my mind, is that it is not Raspberry Pi specific.
I don't believe it was closed for the correct reason, as it is not a duplicate.
It might help if you think about it like this... What kind of answers were you expecting? Because to me, it appears most answers would be links. Either to other questions, or off-site. That is not the sign of a constructive question. As questions and answers should be able to stand alone.
@zenbike I hope that helps, and that you haven't been put off. We're still working through the kinks of what a Raspberry Pi community should be like. It would be extremely helpful if you could follow some of the Raspberry Pi Meta discussions and add your opinion, as we need more minds to help shape the site into the best it can be.
No, that doesn't help. An answer that consists solely of links is generally a bad answer because it is poorly explained or not at all explained. Which can be repaired by explaining why you think a particular place to look will meet my needs.
And one thing that you fail to differentiate is that SO's recommendation policy is designed to prevent brand based flame wars. That is why is is a product recommendation policy. As in, No "lets-go-shopping" questions. It certainly doesn't apply to recommending sources of knowledge, or procedures for tasks, or else every question would violate it. I appreciate your input, and that you appear to be genuinely trying to help.
But in my opinion, this kind of thing is exactly what prevents sites from getting out of beta. Because if a small group of early users get all the say in what makes a valid question, then anything they don't find relevant gets closed. ven if they have to make up a reason to do it.
And since my question was clearly not a duplicate, either those who voted to close didn't bother to read it, or they were choosing a reason to get rid of something they didn't find valuable. Unfortunately, in a learning system like this one, it is the LCD's opinion of what is helpful that matters most, because they need the most help.
An expert's opinion is often colored by the "but that's obvious" knee jerk response. Which prevents non-experts from ever becoming knowledgeable, because they need that information that is obvious.
> Because if a small group of early users get all the say in what makes a valid question, then anything they don't find relevant gets closed. ven if they have to make up a reason to do it.
This is something I'm working hard to avoid.
@zenbike It clearly wasn't a duplicate. I agree with that. It was closed far too hastily in my opinion.
Due to the beta, there are a lot of users with privileges that they are not used to, which is why votes can accrue more quickly than perhaps they should.
I wanted a source of beginner tutorials which could get me past the setup issues which prevent me from using the RasPi at all. In my case, I need a usable keboard and mouse, and I need to SSH into the RasPi from my iPad, so that I don't
have to buy a monitor immediately, or use my other wise occupied TV.
I have a bluetooth mouse and keyboard, but i can't get the sstem to recognize it, and I can't test whether it's hardware compatible with the info I've found, because if it's plugged in, my alternate keyboard doesn't work, so i can't run the commands I have found..
I'm trying to avoid buying additional keyboards (partly because if I do, I will have 3 keyboards on my coffe table, and the wife is going nuts. :))
@zenbike Perhaps add all the information to the question, such as what you've tried etc
@zenbike Back to the original point of this discussion, there have been a few incidents like yours and I have attempted to address them in this meta discussion:
Currently, we don't have a centralized set of rules or general rule that we can refer to if a question is off-topic or not. While we do have the proposed FAQ, not a lot of people link to it or use it when discussing why a question is on- or off-topic. Which is why I'm proposing that we have a sit...
These questions and answers get me to the things I need now, but not to the answer I needed yesterday. Which was where to look for those answers, especially when you guys aren't here to chat with'
I would be ok with there being a list page of places to look, or it being a CW question, but if I need an answer, then the question is necessary (for me).
I also think that had i posted the question originally in the form I edited it to, then it would still be open.
Instead, people got caught up in the word bletooth, and VTC'd without paying attention to what was asked.
FWIW, one of those who voted toclose was the OP on the other question, and she accepted an answer which was only a prduct rec, and which didn't answer her question at all.
If you were already live, I'd have simply deleted my account and gone elsewhere, since I haven't the expertise on the relevant topic to contribute to the growth of the site, if this type of thing is standard.
Aah. Because I wanted an second example to show that I wasn't interested in just one topic. Rather, that I was interested in a place to find more general info. So I grabbed an example of something else I needed to know, to try to take the focus off of just the bluetooth thing.
That's also why I changed the title. Part of the point of a question being closed is to allow an OP to edit into a better form, to get the answer they need, or make it fit the Q&A format better. In this case, every time it was edited, someone rolled it back to the original form.
No, I don't. The point of an SE site is to be able to find the knowledge. How many questions on StackOverflow redirect the OP to a Microsoft Knowledge base articel, or something similar?
I don't really agree with that. Answers may recommend, but the questions themselves don't tend to ask where to find something. What I'd like to try and avoid is being a replacement for a search engine.
I can see your thought. I disagree. Asking people where they get their existing knowledge, so that you don't need to ask them to duplicate existing material 50 times over is a valid question.
Agreed. In most cases that is valid. BUt I also guarantee that if I ask every noob question I am going to have in the next week, I will get hate mail for spamming the site.
Possible Duplicate:
Bluetooth keyboard/mouse for surfing internet on my TV
Is there a step by step for using a bluetooth keyboard and mouse with RasPi? Or SSH?
I've seen the forum posts regarding using BT, and they are not complete enough for someone like me, who is very new to Linux....
Yes, there is a beginners guide for Raspberry Pi. It will give you answers to all of your questions, and if answers don't exist then you can request them.
Point is not everyone will have the time to wait for some to write a good answer, and generally, people don't enjoy writing answers for the very basic stuff.
Not really. I was looking for something that would have got me rolling last week, so that instead of still discussing it today, I would be trying to learn and advance myself.
This discussion is going in circles. I don't need an intro to SE sites. I appreciate your time, but I'm getting annoyed again, so i'm going to sign off.
Really, I'm good with you, and I appreciate the time. But you understand what I'm looking for, and just don't want people to go elsewhere for info. I get that, but it isn't helpful. Talking around it for hours doesn't change it, and I tend to get mean when stuff like that happens. Since I know that, i try not to be online once negative comments(that have no point) start popping up in my head. No offense. It's just how I manage to stay civil online.
I really will see you around, and i look forward to other, more fruitful discussions.
Why not? It wasn't a duplicate. I had edited the question to be nothing like the one referenced. It made no sense. It's exactly what I'd have done on the site I mod, and it was my question, so I could.
6) If an edit war is starting, try not to participate in it-- after one rollback, leave it as is and start discussing. Even if it leads to it being closed.
As it originally stood the question was a duplicate. As it was edited it became not constructive. If the question is edited to become constructive, I will vote to reopen, I can't do more than that.
Ignoring content of the question and concentrating on the current question title Are there step by step tutorials for beginners on things like setting up bluetooth or SSH? you are either asking for two tutorials or a link to a site that can provide them, neither is a good question for a stack exchange site.
I've noticed the following happen a few times:
A user posts a question.
The question is closed as a duplicate and the usual "Possible Duplicate" links are added at the top.
The user promptly removes the duplicate links, even though the question is still closed as a duplicate.
(excessive use of ...
Ignoring content of the question and concentrating on the current question title Are there step by step tutorials for beginners on things like setting up bluetooth or SSH? you are either asking for two tutorials or a link to a site that can provide them, neither is a good question for a stack exchange site.
@Manishearth: Right. Expected not to abuse it. But if you edit the question, and it isn't a dplicate, is it abuse to remove the link to an unrelated question?
@Jivings - As to my casting a close vote without thinking I object strenuously to to that. I always think carefully before casting a close vote. The question as posed is a rank, there is no place for commentary in questions - that's what Raspberry Pi Meta and [chat] is for. If you take out the commentary then the question becomes a dup of the referenced question, which - through my intervention now has at least one useful answer.
That's how you improve the quality of Q&A, but pointing out problems and suggesting solutions, not duplicating your whine and forcing people to deal with the mess left behind.
After chatting with zenbike for the last hour I understand what he was trying to achieve. With that in mind the new question is not a dupe. It displays some anger, but does that make it worthy of close?
@MarkBooth Having reread her question, she has a few conflicting sentences one of which says how do I set it up, but then she accepted an answer that was "Use this keyboard."
Can I get directions for installing a generic Bluetooth dongle, so that I can use an existing bluetooth mouse and keyboard?
I've seen the question here, and that is not what I'm asking.
@zenbike It is better to improve a question than duplicate it, so your most recent q would have been better off as an edit to @MariaZverina's question. But I shouldn't be trying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs, she should already know that.
The difference between hers and my original? I needed a step by step answer. A tutorial. I read her question, and the answers, and the answer she chose, and it didn't provide anything close to my needs.
@MarkBooth: Just because you take something personally, doesn't make it not a real question. I was asked, by @Jivings and @AlexChamberlain to ask it again, as a specific request for a tutorial, so i did. The only commentary was to exlain that it wasn't a dupe, and why I was asking it again.
@MarkBooth: If I was after a specific bluetooth answer, and if she hadn't already marked an answer, I might have. Since neither of those were the case, I went another way.
@Alex, I've been asked to leave the Q&A on the question part of the site. I'm not where I can check an answer now, but if you answer the question there, I will try it tonight. Part of my problem is that if I plug in the BT adaptor, I lose my keyboard, and so can't run commands.
@Mark, perhaps you are right. But I disagree. And there are questions all over SE sites which specifically explain why they are not des in the question, to avoid knee jerk close votes, especially when they are similar to another question that doesn't have an answer for them. And honestly, i doubt that you wouldn't have objected.
des = dupes
I'm done arguing about it.
I will ask specific questions, and hope that the answers are better than the one for your "duplicate" question.
Peace.
@AlexChamberlain: Thanks. I'll look forward to seeing it.
@Manishearth I would still like an answer to this: @Manishearth: Right. Expected not to abuse it. But if you edit the question, and it isn't a dplicate, is it abuse to remove the link to an unrelated question?
zenbike - I'm not doing this for the sake of an argument, I just want to make raspberrypi stack exchange a better place. I was surprised that someone who was a mod on another site seemed to be taking an attitude that I rarely see on any of the stack exchange sites I frequent (check my profile).
Finally, I always think carefully before casting a close vote, but in your case should know better was part of my reason for casting my close vote sooner rather than later, I will try to be less judgemental in the future. We all have to adapt to new SE sites as they evolve, even mods on other sites.
@MarkBooth: Of course we have to adapt. But as this is a beta, and is far from set in stone what is acceptable or not, perhaps you should be less inclined to assume your way is the right way? And by the way, this convo is part of that adaptation process...
I still think that the question would not have been closed if I'd posted it without the word bluetooth in the title. That knee jerk response is part of why I didn't ust let it go. And sorry, but it is, and was a valid question.
@zenbike Just logged back in, sorry to keep you hanging. One answer coming riiight up. (Would you like fries with that?
I do consider it abuse: you ought to wait for it to be reopened. (flag it if you want). The issue with removing the dupe header is that it confuses the reopeners
See, until the question is reopened, you can't get an answer
Obviously
So, if you plan on it being reopened, leave some breadcrumbs for people
Make it easy for them to see that the question was closed wrongly. Don't make them go to the revision history
That way, it gets reopened
Since nobody can answer it anyway, the existence of the dupe header doesn't really affect the answering situation
In the "closed" phase, you want reopen votes. Make it easy for the voters, you'll be more likely to get votes
Besides, you have access to TL--you can ask a comm team member to help handle it
If s/he feels that its no longer a dupe, you get an instant reopen vote :)
I may ask meta for community consensus on removing the dupe header
(I think that's it, ping me if you have questions/want to yell at me :p )
Possible Duplicate:
Bluetooth keyboard/mouse for surfing internet on my TV
Is there a step by step for using a bluetooth keyboard and mouse with RasPi? Or SSH?
I've seen the forum posts regarding using BT, and they are not complete enough for someone like me, who is very new to Linux....
I've noticed the following happen a few times:
A user posts a question.
The question is closed as a duplicate and the usual "Possible Duplicate" links are added at the top.
The user promptly removes the duplicate links, even though the question is still closed as a duplicate.
(excessive use of ...
