The Factory Floor

12:55 AM

@JDługosz something about nineteenth-century computers comprised of human workers. I was trying to figure out the best way to get around the slow instructions per second for human processors

I figured that'd be the biggest bottleneck, that and it seemed like it'd be better to avoid using binary

I was considering using some workers as functions. The processors would give them the inputs, and they'd give outputs. That way, you could probably avoid a lot of the low-level stuff

you tell someone to sort a list, it's going to be faster than giving them a sort algorithm they have to run through one step at a time

aside from that, I was thinking of using telegraphs set up with ropes and a whole lot of boxes and letter blocks for transmitting and storing data.

Andon

Hmm. A "Human" computer could definitely utilize a lot of intuition. The computer I'm typing on does exactly what I tell it to, and nothing more or less. Programming languages rely really a lot on perfect syntax - One missing semicolon can throw things off and make the whole thing stop working. With people? "Oh, you've missed a bit there, let me fix that"

Like sorting - "Sort by size, small to large" is the complete command for a person, where a computer has to be told exactly what small is, what large is, how sorting works, etc.

Humans can also function in an analog manner, and analog computing can be far, FAR better than digital. They kept the mechanical computers on the Iowa-class battleships when they were upgraded, because they simply couldn't do better with digital.

DaaaahWhoosh

1:12 AM

yeah, I mean if you did it right human computers could work, but you definitely shouldn't model them based on digital ones

Andon

Absolutely not, except when exact numbers are needed. At that point, it's just "Here, use this abacus"

Stack Exchange

2:26 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

How does a Stellar Civilization using sublight travel maintain a standard of cenetralized timekeeping in the face of time dilation? Ever since I decided to resize my sci-fi setting to take place in the Solar System in thousands of orbital habitats, I've been forced to put greater thought into th...

JDługosz

3:12 AM

@DaaaahWhoosh see stackoverflow.com/questions/41584581/…

Universe Factory

3:34 AM

Universe Factory - Medium: The Travelling Storyteller

posted on March 10, 2017 by Joe_Bloggs

Image source: http://www.bridgesmathart.org/art-exhibits/bridges2007/yakut.htmlRead part 1: The Itinerant Storyteller The whine coming from the plot hook was deafening, though for Odin it barely rated as pleasant background noise. The engineer tended the dials in the dark underbelly of his ship with infinite care, tweaking here and there as needed, but mostly trusting in his captain’s ability …

2

Pᴇᴛᴇ

7:16 AM

@JDługosz - There's no intentional space or gap in my name, not one that I can see anywhere. When it's highlighted in a chat-mention, the yellow block stops immediately after the horizontal strokes in the E

JDługosz

7:32 AM

@Pᴇᴛᴇ what E? Your name is “P ”.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Sorry, I am barely through the first coffee of the day. No intentional gap after the P either.

I created it by looking at another name on another stack who also used small capitals. I copy/pasted every letter.

JDługosz

8:27 AM

@HDE226868 see worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/73571/…

Secespitus

9:09 AM

Interesting. My RWBY-inspired-weapon question got to the HNQ. Didn't think people were this crazy about bow-swords :D

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Looks like a Latex-Style

@DaaaahWhoosh Here is a different interesting question about anlog computing. I would have liked to see the answers on the deleted question though. Anyone knows why it has been deleted?

Pᴇᴛᴇ

9:50 AM

@Secespitus Basically, it's just small caps. I've never intentionally used LaTex in my life.

Secespitus

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Maybe the one from who you copied the letters did.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

I'm pretty sure that the concept of small caps has existed for a lot longer than LaTeX. It's just Unicode. fsymbols.com/generators/smallcaps

Secespitus

You are right, it just reminded me of Latex, because I have never seen this style anywhere else.

Except for your username of course.

Future Historian

1:06 PM

Alright, so question: why does FTL automatically = time travel? And how would it be useful to worldbuilders?

Secespitus

20

Q: Are there any ways to allow some form of FTL travel without allowing time travel?

Faster than light travel is a really cool thing to have in sci-fi settings. It allows humans, in relatable time scales, to travel the galaxy and see a variety of worlds. It allows for conflicts spanning not just a solar system or perhaps a solar system and its nearest neighbors, but huge sections...

That might be helpful for you @FutureHistorian

Future Historian

Thank you.

But wait a minute.

Instead of trying to remove time travel from the FTL equation, why not take advantage of it?

Secespitus

@FutureHistorian There are many ways to take advantage of it. What are you trying to achieve with the time-travel?

For example the economic effect

Future Historian

Well, think. What would be beneficial from time travel?

In a way that does not destroy causality?

Because in my case, where some people see limits with FTL = time travel, I do happen to see opportunity.

Secespitus

This might be interesting to you too. We have a lot of FTL-Time-Travel questions already on the site

Future Historian

1:11 PM

Then again, you can time travel without FTL, just not backwards.

Especially in real life.

:(

So much for killing Hitler. :(

Secespitus

Okay, I think you just lost me there :D

What is your goal? What did you consider? What is the problem you can't sort out?

Green

1:25 PM

@Pᴇᴛᴇ That's a shame. LaTeX is awesome!

It's also how all the fancy equations are done up on SE.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

From what I've read before, the Allies had the capability to assassinate Hitler, but vetoed the idea. The theory was that he was an egomaniac with little military experience. Killing him and having him replaced by someone more competent would severely hamper the Allied chances.

@Green I agree that LaTeX is awesome. I am nowhere near intelligent enough to make intelligent use out of it.

Green

1:40 PM

@Pᴇᴛᴇ As someone who can write an intelligent question about intergallactic war, I wouldn't sell yourself short like that.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

@Green That's terribly kind of you, but I can't do maths to squat - I just don't have the head for it.

Green

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Learning how to type an equation isn't maths. It's type setting. (But, if you never answers that require equations, I can see your point.)

Pᴇᴛᴇ

It appears that my hopes that someone would invent a galaxy-sized neural net proved unfounded, unfortunately.

Green

@Pᴇᴛᴇ I think your current question is a bit too broad to gather that specific design.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

It would have been cool for the AI to control the high level strategy and allow the small stuff to be sweated by the humans/whatever.

Green

1:43 PM

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Agreed. You'd have to build it that way. Managing a billion nodes just blows my mind.

Just the HR systems to manage all those sailors and keeping them paid. The payroll reports would take days or weeks to run.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Cloud computing is the future.

My mind is still addled by seeing the bestiality/centaur question earlier this morning.

Green

@Pᴇᴛᴇ I didn't see that one.

Is it still open?

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Oddly, no. worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/73533/…

Green

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Oh, it's that guy again. I give him a lot of credit for his persistence.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

It's kind of like having user6780 back again.

Green

1:52 PM

@Pᴇᴛᴇ :) Yes, it is.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

I don't think it's altogether bad though. Sometimes these low-quality questions do have a germ of imagination at their base.

Not that I'd ever want to hump a centaur.

They're usually male, and I just don't swing that way.

Green

@Pᴇᴛᴇ HAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!

Good point though. Where are the female centaurs?

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Well, maybe that's a valid question....

Green

(One google search later) ...and in typical fantasy fashion, they are all sexy.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Just how do centaurs mate?

I am deeply afraid to google this on the company network.

Green

1:57 PM

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Hold on, I'll do it for you.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Taking it for the team, good man!

Mithrandir24601

@JourneymanGeek I'm having issues with com ports - I have a single device using up 4 com ports, only when I try to use it from the computer, it tells me that 'at least one of the com ports needed is in use by another application', only there's nothing else using any of the com ports...

Journeyman Geek

0_0

Does anyone still use com ports?

Pᴇᴛᴇ

I quite honestly cannot remember the last time I used a COM port. Must be at least 20 years ago.

Journeyman Geek

@Mithrandir24601 sometimes com ports share interrupts with other things

Green

1:59 PM

@Pᴇᴛᴇ I think I have safe search on but it's pretty benign.

Mithrandir24601

What, all the com ports?

Green

Oh, wait. I don't have safe search on.

2

Journeyman Geek

@Mithrandir24601 I've not used a com port since...

Green

@JourneymanGeek Arduino developers use COM ports over USB.

Journeyman Geek

I donno

my 486?

@Green those are different, I suppose.

ah yes

0

A: Error 12 on rtl8169sc/tg3269

I suppose this was made significantly easier by the fact that this is a modern system with very little legacy gear. I'm was the impression that modern systems moved PCI support off the rump chipsets (which is incorrect I suspect) so, I figured the only devices which still used IRQ should be old...

Mithrandir24601

2:00 PM

I've tried changing the com port usage in the device manager, but still get the same problem :(

Journeyman Geek

that was what bit me in the arse

@Mithrandir24601 I think we're going about it the wrong way...

are they actual com ports or USB -> com port conversions?

(also, might be a question for SU :) )

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Wow, you guys talk Latin. Awesome, I always thought that was a dead language.

Mithrandir24601

USB -> com port conversions

Journeyman Geek

"You guys"

ah

hm, no real idea then

Mithrandir24601

Ah well, thanks anyway - I'm going to have an interesting afternoon...

Green

2:04 PM

@Mithrandir24601 Good luck!

Secespitus

2:16 PM

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Was that a real user or am i not getting the joke? (I kinda want to look at questions of similar... quality.... to compare them to Darkshines)

Future Historian

So, question: is DNA printing handwavium or is it doable with near-future (as in between now and 2200) technology?

Green

@Secespitus that was an actual user.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

@Secespitus worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/users/8400/user6760

Green

@FutureHistorian what do you mean DNA printing?

Pᴇᴛᴇ

I mistyped the number to protect the innocent.

Secespitus

2:18 PM

Thanks, now I remember his profile pic.

Green

We can already synthesize arbitrary genomes.

Secespitus

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Maybe Darkshine is 6760 in disguise, trying to fool all of us

Future Historian

I am referring to printing out DNA strands that are either already exist or can be created digitally and customised.

Possibly using similar principles to 3D Printing.

Basically, synthetic DNA.

That we can then use in genetic engineering or in gene-therapy treatments.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

@Secespitus Possible. I don't think there's any rules against using second accounts here.

Green

@FutureHistorian We can do that already.

theguardian.com/science/2017/mar/09/…

Or very close to it.

Future Historian

2:23 PM

So, how do we apply it once we get into the realm of colonising other worlds and genetically engineering humans to live there?

Secespitus

@Pᴇᴛᴇ But looking through the questions again I think they concentrate on different topics. Maybe just a copycat :D

Future Historian

Because I was thinking: DNA Printing could be useful in making colonisation of other worlds without terraforming much easier.

As in: you can just synthesise DNA on a computer, then print that DNA and use it to help future colonists adapt to their new colony.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

@Secespitus I think so. user6790 used to cloak a reasonable question in a huge amount of pseudo-science terms.

Future Historian

So, can we adapt this to space colonisation?

Green

@FutureHistorian Don't see why not.

Future Historian

2:28 PM

Well, problem: how cost-effective is it now?

Journeyman Geek

@Pᴇᴛᴇ assuming there's no other shenanigans going on. I have a second account on SU in case there's stuff only a low rep user can see, and for chat use on non secure systems ;p

Secespitus

@FutureHistorian Citing from the article linked by Green: "Today, the technology to design and build genomes is costly and time consuming. To synthesise all of the DNA in baker’s yeast will cost at least $1.25m and each chromosome takes at least a year to manufacture."

So I would guess it's pretty expensive :D

Future Historian

Now, give it a century or two and what am I looking at?

DaaaahWhoosh

@FutureHistorian the inside of a box in the ground

Secespitus

@FutureHistorian Probably depends on how much money you put into the research. If it proves to be extremely useful for something in the next 10 to 20 years many big companies will try to fund it

@DaaaahWhoosh Good argument :D

Future Historian

2:35 PM

Oh, I get it.

laughs

But in all seriousness, what about less benevolent use of the technology.

Such as creating live genetically engineered soldiers?

Secespitus

@FutureHistorian "Genetically engineered soldiers" normally refers to super secret military projects. So you probably won't find any reliable resource on this matter.

Future Historian

I know. But in theory, with that kind of technology, is that doable?

I know I am not finding reliable sources on that one, but this one might require some thinking, and I am leaning: given the appropriate time, money and genetic code, yes.

Secespitus

I would guess so. What is your definition of "genetically engineered soldier"? Just more stamina or videogame like powers like in Prototype?

DaaaahWhoosh

I don't really think we'd be able to get to a point where we genetically modify soldiers. I mean, it's bad enough the state many of them are left in when they come home today, plus with things like exo-suits there's not much reason to modify the actual human

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Universal Soldier. Never been a better film.

Future Historian

2:43 PM

Not with superpowers.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Except maybe "Soldier"

Future Historian

More stamina, higher strength, faster reflexes, etc.

Not superpowers like in Prototype.

That can go down the handwavium drain for all I care.

Well, still.............what if you can remove the capacity to get PTSD?

Not saying this is ethical (and I doubt it is), I am only asking for objective possibilities.

Not ethics.

Those can be discussed at another time.

Secespitus

You mean like "What would be the effect on war, if my soldiers couldn't be affected by PTSD under any circumstance?"

Future Historian

Something of the sort.

Genetic engineering and/or DNIs (Direct Neural Implants) serve as viable solutions.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Wasn't think why LSD was invented?

Future Historian

2:47 PM

And usually, I think DNIs are a better option for that, even with genetic engineering.

Secespitus

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Yes, I think that was the original intention.

Future Historian

Except LSD failed.

A DNI or "appropriate" genetic engineering could be more viable than LSD.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

but less fun

Future Historian

After all: with a DNI, besides being able to deal with Alzheimer's and other mental conditions, it is also a potential tool to control people (literally).

Thus making you (the soldier, in this case) a literal human proxy.

In other words: brain hacking.

And memory editing.

Secespitus

Politicians wouldn't have as much problems explaining why war is necessary, as there would be less negative effects on the survivors. Less money spent on veterans. A little more workforce/soldiers as they can do something after the war. Nothing big I would think.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

2:49 PM

Why not just go the whole distance and simply remove any scrap of empathy?

A soldier who doesn't suffer from pain or emotions.

Future Historian

That is an idea that could be useful for totalitarians.

Secespitus

@Pᴇᴛᴇ That would make them only usable in war times. You couldn't use them for anything else.

Future Historian

And therein lies the problem.

Which is why I prefer DNIs better than gene-editing to prevent soldiers from getting PTSD.

Journeyman Geek

Robots!

Future Historian

You can always remove it after service.

The implant, that is.

DaaaahWhoosh

2:51 PM

@JourneymanGeek it's going to be a really interesting arms race in a few years, with human soldiers competing with robot ones

Journeyman Geek

@FutureHistorian its worth considering that trauma, much like pain, exists for a reason. Unless you edited the memories of the event..

Future Historian

Exactly.

;)

Hence DNIs.

Journeyman Geek

also the "concept" of wars being inherently evil...

its relatively modern

Future Historian

I agree.

I suppose this is the result of the previous century.

Serban Tanasa

What do you mean wars are inherently evil

Future Historian

2:53 PM

And fear of extinction.

Thank you, humanity. You did not turn the world into Fallout 3. :D

DaaaahWhoosh

@JourneymanGeek it was so much easier when foreigners were subhuman. Now we have to treat them like equals, makes it much harder to steal their stuff

Journeyman Geek

@DaaaahWhoosh on the contrary

that brings out the worst of war.

Future Historian

Honestly, I am just glad Earth is not nuclear ash.

Journeyman Geek

@SerbanTanasa that its possible to fight a war for the right reasons, and not lose one's soul over it.

Future Historian

And it better not.

Serban Tanasa

2:56 PM

nukes are only a real danger if you happen to live in a big metro or a capital city, like I do.

In Montana, you're good

Future Historian

Still a danger.

Serban Tanasa

unless you're next to a nuke launch site

Future Historian

Again: still a danger nonetheless.

And I would rather have modern society survive so I can colonise Mars, thank you very much.

Serban Tanasa

meh, I've read all the literature on nuclear winter -- it's a bit fluffy

well, not all, a fair bit

Future Historian

Well, again: it depends on the number of warheads detonated and the combined megatonnage.

Journeyman Geek

2:58 PM

@SerbanTanasa Not finding out if they were right is nice

Serban Tanasa

haha yes

James

Did I just have a stroke or is this really on main?

-4

Q: Do spells on youtube really work?

I'm really wondering if spells on YouTube really work. Can you guys help me? (IF SO TELL ME THE YOUTUBE NAME ON THE SPELLS THAT REALLY WORK THX!)

domestication

Future Historian

Well, let us find out if they are correct on some other civilisation.

Say for example: a society located in a moon of Upsilon Andromedae d by the time of the 25th Century or something.

Secespitus

@James It is, but hopefully not for long :D

CelestialCaveBear

Well - considering the going nuke-response plan is "Take them all down with us" for pretty much everyone, I think its safe to say the cumulative megatonnage of all detonations would be... quite high in the event of any exchange.

Future Historian

2:59 PM

I agree.

And it will end very badly for everyone. So.......

:(

Secespitus

@James I like the "domestication"-tag on that one :D

Serban Tanasa

dunno how many target the Namib desert

or Papua-New Guinea

Secespitus

@SerbanTanasa Surviving in the Namib desert is for most people pretty harsh who are not from there, especially if everything else was covered in fallout

Serban Tanasa

without a siberian traps level event it's almost impossible to exterminate all of Mankind

CelestialCaveBear

Doesn't really matter - trade winds and oceanic currents will make sure that pretty much everyone will enjoy the fruits of the radioactive annihiliation of just about any two major world superpowers.

Serban Tanasa

3:02 PM

siberian traps energy release was so high, you'd need to get into antimatter weapons to compete

CelestialCaveBear

And lets not even think about the kind of poison that will literally rain down upon us once the hydrosystem is sufficiently irradiated.

Serban Tanasa

The Permian-triassic extinction events seem to have released amounts in the trillions of tons of Carbon compounds into the atmosphere. I have a hard time thinking how anything besides antimatter weaponry can come even close

CelestialCaveBear

I'm not saying a nuclear holocaust would be life-ending; life is surprisingly resilient; I'm simply suggesting it would be very, very bad for "us".

Serban Tanasa

I would be dead in the first 5 minutes -- I live in Washington, DC

CelestialCaveBear

It would be an extinction-level event, and while we might find a way to cling on (shoot, I'm an optimist, I even suspect we would) - it would be the single most definitive event in history for hundreds if not thousands of years to come.

DaaaahWhoosh

3:16 PM

ooh, here's a question, say you knew whose fault it was. Would people hold a grudge against that nation for centuries?

CelestialCaveBear

Honestly - considering that A; said nation likely no longer exists in any intelligible sense (as it was likely one of the most highly targeted nations of the exchange) and B; the vast majority of people would die instantly, and those left behind would have no infrastructure of communication to relay the blame from those in the know; most people would not know, and the information would likely disappear in a handful of generations.

DaaaahWhoosh

yeah, I guess so... I'm trying to answer a similar question, but I guess it doesn't really match up here

Serban Tanasa

Most people would not die from the blast -- billions more would die due to disruptions in our infrastructure and logistical chains -- good old fashioned starvartion and disease -- not so much radiation poisoning

CelestialCaveBear

Eh, sorry, that's correct, I suppose I should have said that most major population centers would be annihilated rather quickly, and fold in on themselves shortly thereafter.

At any rate, I think most people wouldn't even really know what happened (or at least the specifics of how it came to transpire); and the likelihood of that information disseminating to the point that most people could hold a grudge against the conflict instigators seems unlikely.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

How on earth is "create a hand thrown silence grenade" Too Broad? Just how specific do I have to be?

CelestialCaveBear

3:24 PM

What does "Silence Grenade" mean?

Pᴇᴛᴇ

A grenade that causes people to be silenced within it's blast radius.

CelestialCaveBear

Because it's impossible for them to speak, or impossible for sound to disseminate outside the radius?

Or is it that all sound inside the radius is suppressed?

kingledion

@Secespitus I don't know if you are assessing this new ball lightning question correctly. The old question was bad, doesn't have any answers, and closed. If this question is better, and doesn't have any other reason to be closed, then it cannot be a duplicate of a bad, closed question

This goes to the point of helping people contribute usefully to the site

James

@Pᴇᴛᴇ If you don't add constraints to your question I am going to do it.

kingledion

Redacted's previous questions were not so great, but now he's doing a lot better.

That should be encouraged, not criticized

James

3:28 PM

@kingledion Yep yep

CelestialCaveBear

@kingledion Superhero of the day.

Secespitus

@kingledion The last time he wrote that he doesn't need any more answers on this matter and while reading the question I couldn't find much difference to the previous one.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

@James. What constraints are you looking for? I can slap a science-based if you like, but wanted to provide room for creativity.

CelestialCaveBear

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Anyway - those questions are perhaps the kind of broadness they meant.

kingledion

@Secespitus Since he asked the question again, I would say he does want more answers. I kindly ask that you delete your comments after the first one, so Redacted doesn't feel too set upon.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

3:31 PM

@James Feel free to edit my question if you feel you can add some non-broadness to it. Close votes tend to suck the life out of things.

kingledion

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Now you are being prosecuted by the mods; you should write an angry meta post.

CelestialCaveBear

@kingledion I think you mean "persecuted". :D

kingledion

@CelestialCaveBear Fact

Secespitus

@kingledion I deleted all of my comments. But I thought editing existing posts was the right way to go and that users should try to edit their "put on hold"/"closed" posts and try to get feedback on them. Or write on the Sandbox to get feedback on newer ones so that they don't end up as duplicates.

@kingledion And of course I also retracted the flag.

kingledion

@Secespitus Everyone's right way is there own, and I can only speak with authority on what I think we should be doing. Personally, I think the put on 'hold right away' strategy is too aggressive for new users.

I'm really only talking to you because I've watched Redacted try to post over the last week or so and I'm trying to encourage him along.

Your approach to questions is just as valid as mine, I was just suggesting that in this case, carrot might work better than stick.

Secespitus

3:38 PM

Yeah, I tried that with Shard Martin and only got into trouble

Pᴇᴛᴇ

It's also too aggressive for answerers too. If they come to a question with a close vote count, they immediately assume the question is sub-standard. It might be better to offer guidance before slapping with a VTC.

kingledion

I'll be honest, there seems to have been a rash of 'closed-too-soon' questions (shout out to @Pᴇᴛᴇ 's silence grenade) and angry recriminations in comments and meta recently.

I'm just trying to tone that down and put a little more friendly face on the site for a bit.

Ironic considering how mean I was to AlexDarshire just yesterday

DaaaahWhoosh

maybe we just need to pin a meta post reminding people to be nice

CelestialCaveBear

I formally motion that it be a metapost reminding people to Be Excellent To Eachother; rather than Nice.

DaaaahWhoosh

@CelestialCaveBear that's a stupid idea and you should feel bad for coming up with it. 'Be Nice' is so much better

kingledion

3:46 PM

@CelestialCaveBear If you've been in the military, that will backfire. Excellence is a dirty word there, they use it for everything: dcoe.mil

cybercoe.army.mil

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Getting philosophical here : Is WB a creative-focussed stack or is it a science-focussed stack? Or is it trying to be both?

kingledion

benning.army.mil/mcoe

@DaaaahWhoosh I c wat u did thar

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Creative, though science is heavily encouraged

DaaaahWhoosh

@Pᴇᴛᴇ it's focused on the science of creativity

CelestialCaveBear

@DaaaahWhoosh Oh, gawd. The paradoxes...

Pᴇᴛᴇ

That's what I thought as well. I can understand a science based stack being close-happy with questions, but something more creative-based....?

Serban Tanasa

3:48 PM

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Worldbuilding is focused on Worldbuilding

Secespitus

@kingledion If we don't want users to edit their posts and then reopening them - won't we just end up with a lot of near-duplicates and a lot of posts with invalidated answers? Anyway, I will probably stay away from any comments/flags/meta for a while. The last days showed that what I am doing is not well received.

kingledion

@CelestialCaveBear I found more: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intrepid_Center_of_Excellence ; act.nato.int/centres-of-excellence

They are making my skin crawl

Serban Tanasa

it's all about your tags

CelestialCaveBear

@kingledion It's all the excellence, it'll do that. Excellence should be taken in moderation.

kingledion

@Secespitus As a newer user, I don't want you to be discouraged either. You are absolutely right that off-topic, broad, and what have you posts should be put on hold, edited, and re-opened.

@Secespitus I was just trying to appeal to you over a single post, for reasons I gave. I don't think you are doing a bad job at trying to govern the site at all.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

3:51 PM

There are times when I choose not to put a science-based tag onto questions because I favour more creativity on the part of the users.

kingledion

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Speaking of which....Hey you can't retroactively stick science based in there on me! :)

Pᴇᴛᴇ

I got the impression that I've been asked to put some kind of constraining tag on the question to avoid the "too broad" closure.

kingledion

Worldbuilding is so demanding

Secespitus

@kingledion Thanks, but this one is confusing me for weeks now and the last three days didn't put my name in a good light. And i've raised that linked post too often now. I think I need to take a step back and watch you guys for a while before actively participating (again).

Pᴇᴛᴇ

It's all a conspiracy to prevent me from reaching 10K, they'll stop at nothing to stop me....

CelestialCaveBear

4:00 PM

"They'll stop at nothing to stop me" is... a grammatically interesting sentence.

HDE 226868

@JDługosz Awesome. Done.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

@CelestialCaveBear ... and strangely, grammatically correct...

CelestialCaveBear

The two are no necessarily mutually exclusive.

HDE 226868

@Pᴇᴛᴇ I feel like it either takes in creativity and spits out analysis or takes in a basic idea and spits out something in more detail, depending on what the question author's looking for.

Worldbuilding Meta

4:16 PM

2

Q: Specialized tags for weapons

I just got this old question in my review queue for suggested edits, where Secespitus wanted to add bows andweapons to the tag list. I agree that weapons is a good addition to the question, but when checked the tag list for bows, then noticed that only one single question had that tag so far. Fro...

discussion specific-tag

HDE 226868

4:33 PM

@kingledion Are you familiar with Earnshaw's theorem, and if so, do you think it necessarily applies in this sort of wraparound universe?

James

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Check out the edit, let me know what you think

kingledion

@HDE226868 I am not familiar. I gotta run right now, let me look that up and chat about it later.

HDE 226868

@kingledion Cool. Talk to you later.

James

@HDE226868 Whats up

HDE 226868

@James Not much. Well, some snow that was up is now coming down.

DaaaahWhoosh

4:45 PM

aww man, I want there to be snow here

James

I am supposed to be getting some of that here today.

2-4"

DaaaahWhoosh

actually, I take it back, snow would probably be a bad idea. There's trees blooming all over the place

plus, the geese are back

I saw a pair of geese this morning. One was sitting in the middle of the road. The other one was standing on one leg. I like how birds stand on one leg

it's like, why do they do it? What's the point? I like to think they're training to be gymnasts.

James

@DaaaahWhoosh A pelican on the uneven bars.

mind.

blown.

DaaaahWhoosh

5:02 PM

oh, apparently the real reason is that their feet get cold

but still. They must have great balance.

Tim B

Wide feet, lightweight skeletons, etc make it easier too

Tim B

5:34 PM

But actually standing on one leg isn't that hard, I could do it basically indefinitely if I wanted to. There's plenty of human cultures where it is normal too - often in hot countries which suggests again that it may be a heat adaptation.

DaaaahWhoosh

it's not that hard, but you at least have to think about it

sometimes when I'm standing waiting for something I'll balance on the front part of one foot. That's tough to do

Pᴇᴛᴇ

5:51 PM

@James thanks for the edit and rescue of the question, appreciated!

kingledion

6:49 PM

@HDE226868 Hey did you see @Schwern blow up all our math work? Gravity propogates at a finite speed, so assuming a universe of a finite age, there cannot be an infinite number of things to sum when calculating net gravity.

Mithrandir24601

@kingledion What's the question/answer?

kingledion

4

Q: Does gravity converge in a wrap-around universe?

This is a follow up to What would physics be like in a wrap-around universe? PyRulez commented, “Will gravity still make sense? (Namely, will it converge or not)?” This was bantered about in the comments and one idea was mentioned briefly in one of the answers. But I’d like a more in-depth expl...

science-based gravity alien-geometry

@HDE226868 I suppose it doesn't blow it up, I'm sure the proof of convergence is even easier with the sum of a finite subset of a geometric series, but still, I feel like that was a big conceptual miss on my part.

HDE 226868

@kingledion Yeah, but - and maybe I'm misunderstanding his logic - I think that only works if the objects are space half the distance apart of the length of the universe.

kingledion

@HDE226868 Oh I think the second half of his post is all wrong, but the propgation speed of gravity makes all the difference in the world.

If you think about the surface of the sphere, if the two geodesics are of different lengths, then they 'started' at different times from point A to reach point B at the same time

Since they 'started' at point A at different times, then the relative position of A to B was not the same

HDE 226868

Oh, true. I was going all the way to Newton and assuming an infinite speed of propagation. Good point.

Huh. This is interesting.

kingledion

6:56 PM

Therefore there can be some angle between the two geodesics and there is some wacky vector force of gravity

This is interesting

HDE 226868

We're still only talking about two paths, though, right? The symmetry argument still cancels out the others.

Mithrandir24601

How well would an expanding de Sitter metric work?

kingledion

@HDE226868 I don't think that would be true, since those other points would all have their own starting position in time

Mithrandir24601

That seems to be what the OP's looking for...

kingledion

@Mithrandir24601 You're on your own on de Sitter space. I looked at the wikipedia article and my eyes rolled back in their sockets.

HDE 226868

6:59 PM

@kingledion But if we take a path X of distance s, you could just take a different path of distance s - its mirror image - and both effects should arrive at the same time. For all paths not including the geodesic, this should lead to cancellation.

kingledion

Whenever I read the term 'MInkowski Space' I stop reading and assume this is he work of an Eldritch Horror

@HDE226868 I don't understand the reasoning that a mirror image path would be of distance s? If we are 100 miles apart on the surface of the Earth, isn't the mirror image path of distance Earth's circumference - 100?

HDE 226868

@Mithrandir24601 It's one instance yeah. When I was addressing the $n-1$-spheres, I guess I was looking at a similar case. But there should be plenty of other spaces that aren't de Sitter space which fit the requirements, i.e. plenty of non-isotropic choices.

@kingledion Say one point is on the north pole, and on the prime meridian (I'm thinking of a universe with Earth's longitude/latitude coordinate system). The other point is in Greenwich, also on the prime meridian. Now, the shortest path is obviously straight along the prime meridian. However, other paths connect the two. Many go the western hemisphere, for instance.

Each of those paths has a length, and you can flip that path over the prim meridian to have another path of the same length but in the eastern hemisphere. This means that for all paths not on the prime meridian, the contributions cancel out.

kingledion

@HDE226868 Ah, I see what you are saying.

HDE 226868

This means that the speed of gravity here isn't important. Take any $c$ you want; it holds.

The time is just $s/c$, and that will be the same for each of the two paths.

kingledion

@HDE226868 But there is one other path that doesn't cancel, the one that goes south from Greenwich and ends up at the north pole via the south pole

HDE 226868

7:07 PM

@kingledion Sure. And that's the second term we care about.

kingledion

Exactly, now my reasoning from that is

If 'Greenwich" was on a train moving due west at a certain speed

Then it might have been at 1 degree E when gravity 'left' it to affect the north pole via the southerly route

But it would have been at 0 degree E when gravity 'left' it to go directly north

Thus the sum of those two components now have a 'longitudinal' vector component

HDE 226868

Oh, sure. But I think we're looking at static problems if you have zero initial velocities. Given it an initial velocity, and you're going to get an orbit. Not a closed orbit, in all likelihood, but an orbit nonetheless.

Actually, I suppose a wraparound universe could violate Bertrand's theorem, no? Take a sphere and put two masses on two poles. Given them the same initial speed, each moving away from each other at the same speed, and they'll still end up where they started. They'll still be at the same separation.

Ergo, you get a closed orbit, which should also be the case for a solitary mass.

kingledion

I'm trying to develop another thought experiment, but I can't do it.

James

@kingledion Thinking is hard, we get it.

4

kingledion

Ok this is great, but I seriously have to go think about work or I can't go home, and its Friday

Good talk, same place next week?

James

7:17 PM

@kingledion Same bat time same bat channel

HDE 226868

Probably. I'll do some thinking over the weekend.

Mithrandir24601

@HDE226868 It's generally a good idea to assume that the universe is isoptropic though...

HDE 226868

@Mithrandir24601 Probably. I'm still scratching my head for a generalization, as I'm guessing that someone's going to bring a toroidal universe, which seems to be a popular choice sometimes. I'm don't know if there's a GR solution which allows that, though.

Oh, wait. The surface of a torus is just a connected rectangle, like my first example. Well, almost.

Duh.

JDługosz

@Pᴇᴛᴇ I posted a screen shot on meta. meta.worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/4648/…

Mithrandir24601

7:33 PM

yeah, it'll probably depend on the topology...

@JDługosz For your converging gravity question, what's the shape/topology of your 'wrap-around' universe - is it de Sitter, or toroidal? Or something else?

JDługosz

@FutureHistorian Read Time Master by Robert L. Forward. It addresses this problem specifically: how to benifit from time travel when causality is fixed and history cannot be changed.

Mithrandir24601

The original "What would physics be like in a wrap-around universe?" does, I suppose suggest a toroidal shape

Huh. Would you end up with a gravitational saddle potential?

Worldbuilding Meta

0

Q: Use name doesn’t render in all browsers?

Evidently it’s possible to use characters or formatting codes in use names that don’t work on all platforms/browsers.

discussion

JDługosz

@FutureHistorian see worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/36967/…

14

Q: What if criminal behavior was "cured"?

Suppose technology becomes available that allows bad people to be "cured". Instead of going to prison for decades or being executed, for example, a murderer has his brain adjusted. Now cured, there is no reason to punish (beyond the forcible mind surgery). These people are released into society. ...

society psychology

JDługosz

7:56 PM

@HDE226868 I see; this can be added to your proof.

Enigma Maitreya

8:16 PM

@JDługosz Did you ever watch Babylon 5 specifically the episode "Passing Through Gethsemane" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_Through_Gethsemane it may highlight some issues for you.

DaaaahWhoosh

8:49 PM

whoa, fun fact, compasses are made specifically for different parts of the world

apparently they work pretty much anywhere, but need to be weighted differently for different hemispheres

(when I learn things on Stack Exchange it seems only right to recount them here)

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