The Nineteenth Byte

12:00 AM

@wizzwizz4 really, the problem here isn't IP, but BGP

IP is the routing protocol for people who trust each other, it works fairly well

whereas BGP is the routing protocol invented to ensure that companies who are actively trying to sabotage each other usually get at least some data through

wizzwizz4

@ais523 My protocol is like IP, except for paranoid people.

ais523

introducing a new protocol is unlikely to help because it won't prevent the major Internet providers messing with each other

(for reference, the most common cause for rifts in the Internet is providers playing chicken with their BGP settings, each daring the other to back down and compromise first)

Pavel

Many, smaller ISPs?

flawr

A network that does not rely on central providers would be cool. But probably too slow.

wizzwizz4

@ais523 The new protocol eliminates ISPs.

ais523

12:03 AM

it's nearly always the big ones; the reason is that small ones nearly always pay a big one to handle "all other traffic"

wizzwizz4

Sort of.

ais523

and so if they get in a row with each other, then they end up paying in Internet usage fees, rather than just having the connections break

whereas if the tier 1 providers get in an argument, there's nobody to pass the buck to

Pavel

Best artist is actually pegboard nerds

quartata

They haven't made anything good in like 3 years.

A shame.

Pavel

i know

It was so great tho

ais523

12:11 AM

hmm, seeing a closed homework question reminded me of a reverse homework question I had (and solved) a while back

which would probably be ontopic here if not for being language-specific

Pavel

I think my favorite is Hero

Which is actually only two years old now that I think about it.

ais523

(it was a reverse homework question in that I'd written a sandbox for marking other people's homework, and then needed to do some operations inside my own sandbox as part of the marking)

the problem was to convert a character to a string in OCaml without using the standard library (or any other library; the restriction was syntactic, i.e. no module names anywhere)

Wheat Wizard

Does anyone know why str(i**2 for i in range(30)) returns '<generator object <genexpr> at -Memory location->'?

ais523

and with help from IRC, I figured it out in the end

Pavel

@WheatWizard Which language?

Wheat Wizard

12:13 AM

@Pavel Oh python

Pavel

I did not know you could python like that.

quartata

@WheatWizard You're stringfying a generator expression

Pavel

I think it's because i**2 for i in range(30) isn't a number or array or anything similar

Wheat Wizard

@quartata Why is that different from str([i**2 for i in range(30)])?

Maltysen

@WheatWizard cuz parens instead of brackets make generator instead of list

the parens are implicit in a function

quartata

12:16 AM

Because that's a list not an iterator

yeah ^^

Wheat Wizard

Ok I didn't know you could make generators like that

so you can do [x**2 for x in y**3 for y in range(12)]?

quartata

Oh man you're one of today's lucky ten thousand. Generator expressions are the bomb

Pavel

So am I

Wheat Wizard

I have used generators before I just never knew that the list comprehension syntax was a generator

but now that I know I have so many questions

Maltysen

@WheatWizard if you use [] that's still a normal list

quartata

12:19 AM

No no list comprehension syntax makes a list. If you use parens it makes a generator.

gah ninja'd

Wheat Wizard

Oh ok

ATaco

Is codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/107193/exit-code-golfing even possible..?

I mean, most if not all languages don't have an exit code for every possible crash.

And some exit codes, such as 2 aren't caused by the code itself unless as a return, and are caused by the system.

Destructible Watermelon

exit(int(input()))

python3

Mistah Figgins

You just need to support a minimum of exit codes 1 and 0. You just get a significantly better score if you support more codes

Destructible Watermelon

python2 is shorter

Mistah Figgins

12:32 AM

@DestructibleWatermelon "You may not call anything which is intended directly for exit code output"

Destructible Watermelon

huh

ATaco

You need to get it to error or crash with that error code.

New Main Posts

1

Q: Exit Code Golfing

Inspired by this default for IO. The Task Write a program that, given an input integer x between 0 and 255, crashes with exit code x. Restrictions You may not call anything which is intended directly for exit code output (System.exit(x), returning from main, etc.). Instead, your program must...

code-challenge

Destructible Watermelon

python2 answer, covers 0 and 1

[0][input()]

quartata

@VoteToClose Is signal allowed?

ATaco

12:36 AM

Hmm...

Destructible Watermelon

!.(1' )

Turtlèd answer covering 0 and 1

ATaco

I think I can get 2

Pavel

Question about earlier discussion: when would you use a generator over a list?

Destructible Watermelon

the interpreter errors when the grid is empty and it is cutting away the empty lines and stuff

it's not a bug its a feature

quartata

@Pavel Do you know how generators work?

Pavel

12:37 AM

not really

Destructible Watermelon

wait, I have shorter thing I think

VoteToClose

@quartata Whot?

quartata

The idea is that it only calculates the list when you need it.

Destructible Watermelon

wait something is wrong with my first program sorry

quartata

@VoteToClose Like kill.

Destructible Watermelon

12:39 AM

!.(1' d)

this one works

VoteToClose

@quartata Well, the intent of kill is to end the program with a certain exit code, no?

Destructible Watermelon

shorter Turtlèd answer covering 0 and 1 only still

!.(0

it looks like a golfing lang! :P

quartata

@VoteToClose No merely to send a signal.

The name is misleading at best.

VoteToClose

@quartata Hmm. If it isn't causing the exit code, then I don't see an issue.

quartata

Not directly at any rate.

VoteToClose

12:41 AM

Yes. :P

That's what I meant.

Destructible Watermelon

time to find if there are other ways my interpreter can error...

Pavel

Division by 0?

quartata

kill -$(128 - $1) $$ is the winner I think

I have to find out which signals cause crashes though.

Pavel

You can't actually call kill.

Destructible Watermelon

ooh, I found another length 4 answer for Turtlèd

VoteToClose

12:42 AM

@quartata Can you explain this code to me? :P

Destructible Watermelon

' ?;

quartata

Signals that cause crashes usually cause an exir code of 128 + signl number

TrojanByAccident

Anyone care to compare their golflang with pgs?

quartata

So 128 - n

VoteToClose

@quartata Yeah no that's basically calling an exit with some code.

Destructible Watermelon

12:44 AM

wow, I'm finding length 4 answers all over the place

VoteToClose

That is the intended effect of the command. :P

quartata

Except not all signals cause exit codes. It's a side effect.

Off the top of my head this only gets 7 exit codes

Pavel

Wait, how can it not have an exit code?

VoteToClose

@quartata I'm a little confused by what you mean. Is it purely coincidental in implementation?

quartata

@Pavel Well non zero.

Pavel

12:46 AM

But the intended purpose is to exist with a certain code.

quartata

@VoteToClose No but kill is not responsible for it in any way. It's up to the kernel's implementation.

New Main Posts

2

Q: The Eratosthenes Shuffle

Challenge Write a function or program that accepts a line of input, performs a very specific and oddly familiar shuffle on its characters, and outputs the result. The required shuffling can be described using the following algorithm: Label each character in the input with a 1 based index. Wri...

code-golf

VoteToClose

@Pavel The program must support exit codes zero and one. Further exit codes improve the score significantly, though.

@quartata That's scary. But cool. :D Post ahead.

Not one hour. Sixty minutes exactly.

quartata

I have to add an if for 0 but no handling is needed for 1 luckily. Pretty sure kill itself will exit with 1 on an invalid signal num

VoteToClose

Would I rude to make an error tag?

I know that it fits in with other challenges, so it wouldn't be unique to my challenge.

quartata

12:55 AM

@VoteToCode Actually on second thought it appears there are 19 terminating signals in POSIX currently.

ais523

@VoteToClose Not rude (although don't retag posts at a high rate because it bunmps them); however, challenges involving errors tend to lead to disputes

quartata

So 34/(21!).

Oops.

VoteToClose

@quartata Geez

ais523

this is a good example, does throwing the error from outside count?

quartata

Actually 37. Forgot the fi :P

ais523

12:57 AM

in Linux, signals have a field specifying who threw them, you could disallow signals specified as being thrown by the user

but that's probably OS-specific

quartata

@ais523 Yeah not so sure anymore.

VoteToClose

@ais523 If you're directly throwing errors in your own written code, it's an issue.

quartata

Although I do know of lanuages that throw signals on exceptions so

I think using signals directly should probably be banned. I feel cheaty

It isn't a terrible ingenious solution and it goes against the intent of the challenge IMO

VoteToClose

@quartata I'll disallow it before any get posted.

quartata

Also it's pretty implementation specific since I don't know if exiting with 128 + signal num is part of POSIX

@ais523 Do you know if that's always the case?

ais523

1:02 AM

it's surely got to be, loads of portable programs assume that (including Perl)

although "exit code" is ambiguously defined

wait (which lets you get at exit codes) returns a bitfield

seven bits are used for the code itself, and one as a tag that determines whether the code is an exit code or a signal number

lots of programs, such as bash, interpret that as an 8-bit integer

but I don't know whether it's correct to call the whole thing the exit code

and the exact packing is implementation-dependent

actually, I just looked up POSIX; it specifies the use of macros to unpack the exit code

hmm, I'm really tired and not 100% sure any of the above is correct

quartata

But not the implementation of the macros themselves? So it could really be any bit not just leading?

ais523

especially as POSIX is defining WEXITSTATUS as 8 bit

VoteToClose

@DestructibleWatermelon You can use <s></s> for strike through unless the --- is for irony.

quartata

brb inventing kernel that uses second msb for signal bit

ais523

I'm fairly sure that POSIX doesn't place constraints on how the macros work though

Destructible Watermelon

1:07 AM

@VoteToClose it was an accident removing it

VoteToClose

@DestructibleWatermelon Just checking. :P

Destructible Watermelon

I was editing it at that time

VoteToClose

I had figured, but I couldn't tell.

Destructible Watermelon

ok

Pavel

Bastion — The Pantheon / Ain't Gonna Catch You (russian ver.)

►

reddit.com/r/The_Gaben/comments/5olhj4/hi_im_gabe_newell_ama

quartata

1:12 AM

Saw it in the Bridge already

is that legit

Oh yes

o_o

"The number 3 must not be said" -Gaben, 2016

quartata

Gabe has done AMAs in the past you know

I think my personal favorite quote is "Robin, we found the Ricochet fan"

6 Treants and Gabe never having heard of VNN are runnerups

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

1:27 AM

wait he hasn't heard of VNN?

Pavel

It was a joke

quartata

Not until today apparently.

ATaco

I actually like Ricochet

quartata

@Pavel ?

Pavel

Didn't he then also reply to a comment by VNN with feedback?

quartata

1:28 AM

Yes.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ah ok

quartata

That was after.

aditsu

yay, Chelsea Manning is going to be free!!! Freedoooooom!! \o/

quartata

I can't say I'm surprised -- VNN was tiny until about 6 months ago.

Pavel

Wait, who is chelsea Manning?

VoteToClose

1:29 AM

What is this VNN you speak of?

Pavel

Valve News Network

quartata

(insert haha I was there from the beginning gag)

Pavel

(I was tho)

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Pavel transgender ex-soldier accused of treason

VoteToClose

Oh okay I was getting white supremacy networks

aditsu

1:30 AM

@Pavel a soldier who revealed how the US was killing civilians in Iraq

VoteToClose

They chose a really poor acronym lol

ATaco

I love how Jelly casually uses all 257 unique values of a byte.

VoteToClose

@ATaco O.o

ais523

@ATaco it only uses 256 values, but one of them is used for two different purposes

ATaco

I know.

But I love the concept.

¶ and \n are the same byte, but mean two different things.

ais523

1:33 AM

I have a likely-abandoned golflang which has a 6-bit character set with 128 different characters in it

it determines which of the two possibilities for each character is being used from context

quartata

@Pavel orly

@ais523 Is this the Prolog one?

ais523

was an early plan for a golfed-Prolog

yes

ATaco

I want to try to write a Tacit language now.

ais523

but I'm now more interested in making a sort of cross between Jelly and Prolog, which would be more reliable in beating records

quartata

That would be so cool. I had plans for a golfy version of Erlang that really put emphasis on making pattern matching concise but it never panned out

ais523

1:37 AM

I've already started writing parser documentation (the parser itself is unstarted, though), and I already have a working and tested character encoding

Conor O'Brien

@ais523 that's actually quite cool

ATaco

What about a MultiByte Jelly with just more predefined functions.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

soooo mathematica?

ATaco

JellyMatica

A 16bit Codepage.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

eh

quartata

1:40 AM

@ATaco Jelly already has two byte functions

ATaco

Only kind of.

It has the two byte functions which use the prefix functions.

ais523

come to think of it, a golfing language which used Mathematica as its standard library would do pretty well

ATaco

But that doesn't take use of the potential of a 16bit codepage.

ais523

i.e. the language itself has nothin to do with Mathematica, but you can "shell out to" a Huffman-encoded Mathematica to access its functions

Pavel

@ais523 That exists, it's called mthmtca

Qwerp-Derp

1:40 AM

Tips and Tricks for asking Processing questions on SO: Put the java tag into the question, otherwise you won't get an answer.

ais523

Burlesque has a 16 bit codepage

Pavel

github.com/LegionMammal978/Mthmtca

quartata

@ATaco 16-bit codepage is a waste of space. Jelly just does it by appending a character at the front. æ_

Pavel

No one uses it 'cause it's really hard to work with and Mathematica is expensive.

quartata

They haven't gotten close to depleting those yet

Conor O'Brien

1:44 AM

Jolf has like 5 different multibyte character thingies

ATaco

A 16-bit codepage is a waste of space if you don't have 63k commands.

But think of the possibilities!

Qwerp-Derp

TIL Processing if made for tiny projects and can't properly support anything larger than 4 or 5 files

ATaco

But it's really good at Genetic Algorithms.

Qwerp-Derp

@ATaco Pls why

3

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

2:09 AM

@mınxomaτ :/ you killed Browser Disapproval?

> The false information lasted for six years in Wikipedia and came to be propagated by hundreds of websites, several newspapers (one of which was later cited as a source in Wikipedia)

ATaco

Great, I made a Tacit language based on lua.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

> lasted... in wikipedia... later cited as a source in wikipedia

ATaco

Citeosis.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

I just read a pop-science book by a respected author. One chapter, and much of the thesis, was based around wildly inaccurate data which traced back to ... Wikipedia. To encourage people to be on their toes, I'm not going to say what book or author.

citogenesis

ATaco

That one.

It's an actual term used by Wikipedia now.

[Citation Needed]

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

2:20 AM

what, '[Citation-needed]'?

are you saying that was based off xkcd?

ATaco

That Citogenesis is used by Wikipedia.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

and 'citogenesis' is not fwiw, the usage dates back a while

ninja'ed sorta

New Main Posts

0

Q: Display OEIS sequences

The On-Line Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences (OEIS) is an online database of integer sequences. It contains nearly 280000 sequences of mathematical interest. Examples of sequences: positive integers (A000027) prime numbers (A000040) Fibonacci numbers (A000045) Your task is to write a prog...

sequence restricted-source

user165474

Hey, I finally have 1k rep! :D

Pavel

nj

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

2:36 AM

congrats

2

user165474

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Thanks

Pavel

Who starred "congrats" >_>

2

user165474

Not I.

Pavel

Presumably the same person who starred my message, I suppose.

user165474

It could be DestructibleWatermelon, wat, VoteToClose, or ATaco. Or me, if I'm lying to you.

Nathan Merrill

2:44 AM

I'm here too :P

TrojanByAccident

@Pavel Different person, actually

Nathan Merrill

but it wasn't me

user165474

Okay, there are more people here than I thought.

Pavel

Well, now we know one the people was Trojan.

El'endia Starman

And me!

TrojanByAccident

2:44 AM

lol

user165474

The thingy bar on the side doesn't behave the way I expected...

Nathan Merrill

I've got an idea for a control flow to replace exceptions, but I'm unsure what to call it. Basically, a function can have "cases" that are declared, and the caller needs to handle them.

TrojanByAccident

Many of us practice an ancient technique known as "lurking"

Pavel

If it's faded, it means the person is here but hasn't said anything in a while.

user165474

Cool.

El'endia Starman

2:45 AM

@AlexL. It only shows you how long it's been since that person posted a message. It tells you nothing about whether or not they're looking at the room (or starring stuff).

user165474

So it could be Geobits, Mego, Dennis, Doorknob, etc......

user165474

@El'endiaStarman Oh okay.

El'endia Starman

@AlexL. Theoretically, yes. They don't usually star such stuff though.

Doorknob

@AlexL. But probably not.

TrojanByAccident

it could be Andrew Savinykh

El'endia Starman

2:46 AM

@NathanMerrill How do you mean?

Nathan Merrill

fun parse(xml: String): Obj case InvalidXML

Pavel

It was probably Dennis' fault. We all know he's a massive troll.

Nathan Merrill

its like mixing exceptions and enums?

but you can have multiple cases

and they don't just have to be error cases

user165474

That looks kinda like the java syntax for a method: void something() throws Exception{}, but I'm not sure if it's the same thing as what you're referring to.

Nathan Merrill

right, its somewhat similar to that

user165474

2:48 AM

Okay.

El'endia Starman

So it's like syntactic sugar for switch statements blended with multiple try-catch blocks?

Nathan Merrill

except that there's no such thing as making an exception class

right

"cases" have a name, and have to be declared in the function definition

if you don't handle them in your function, you have to declare them as well

H Walters

You don't need exception classes in C++

user165474

Is this a language you're making?

Nathan Merrill

yes

user165474

2:49 AM

Sounds interesting. Is its syntax similar to any common language?

Nathan Merrill

I don't know the syntax yet

nor a term to use

user165474

Okay.

Nathan Merrill

I'm still trying to flesh this out, and I'm curious if there are other languages that do something similar

(outside of exceptions, which I'm familiar with)

user165474

As far as I'm aware, it's just Java, but that's with exceptions, so not what you're looking for.

Qwerp-Derp

I'm disappointed at Processing :(

I can't even import Processing files

user165474

2:51 AM

I guess the files can't be processed

user165474

sorry that was really bad

Nathan Merrill

also, cases are ...function specific. Like, you can declare a case and handle it in the same function

El'endia Starman

Yeah, as I understand it, Nathan is figuring out how he wants his language to work, then designing the syntax from that.

Nathan Merrill

kind of like a in-function goto

Qwerp-Derp

@AlexL. :(

Nathan Merrill

2:52 AM

or a label jump for goto-haters :P

TrojanByAccident

welcome @EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

er thanks I got the ping notice

I'm outta here now though, got stuff to do

TrojanByAccident

lol

user165474

bye

Pavel

@Qwerp-Derp To import java files, you have to give them a package declaration

TrojanByAccident

2:53 AM

who enters a room and then just leaves it right away

Pavel

tee-hee

El'endia Starman

Please don't ping people for no reason.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@TrojanByAccident ne

Nathan Merrill

oh I totally do. I open chat, then think "I need to get work done", and immediately close it

user165474

ok sorry

user165474

2:54 AM

I open it and then leave it in background for 10 hours.

Nathan Merrill

I can't do that anymore with chrome's blue dot

TrojanByAccident

@NathanMerrill I open chat, then think "I need to get work done" and continue chatting

Nathan Merrill

I now know instantly anybody chats,

which is very distracting

TrojanByAccident

?

Nathan Merrill

@TrojanByAccident do you use chrome? do you pin tabs?

El'endia Starman

2:55 AM

@AlexL.: If you haven't already, read the Chatiquette. Pinging people unnecessarily is one of the "don't"s.

Might as well learn what the other "don't"s are.

TrojanByAccident

@NathanMerrill I use chrome. I'm not sure what you mean by pinning tabs.

Pavel

right click tab->pin tab

TrojanByAccident

interesting. never used it

Pavel

Pinned tabs have the functionality of reopening after you close chrome

TrojanByAccident

ah

Nathan Merrill

2:56 AM

pinning tabs is so useful. It lets me keep certain windows open without using up a bunch of space for other tabs

TrojanByAccident

I never close chrome

Pavel

Or restart your computer

Nathan Merrill

like, I always have my email pinned

Pavel

The point is, if the title of the tab changes, it will display a blue dot on the icon.

El'endia Starman

@Pavel There's also a "reopen tabs after closing" option somewhere in the settings, which I chose.

TrojanByAccident

2:57 AM

I just restore from the previous chrome session

Pavel

So you know something has happened.

Nathan Merrill

right, so if I were to pin TNB, anytime somebody chats, the title changes (with an asterisk), and I get the blue dot :)

Pavel

@El'endiaStarman I personally don't use it much. I'm just explaining what it does.

Nathan Merrill

@El'endiaStarman (back to my language, sorry!) Can you think of a good name besides "case"? I want to avoid exception-based words, because I want to expand people's minds to what is possible

user165474

So, can you provide a snippet of what a function with the "case" syntax might look like?

El'endia Starman

2:59 AM

@NathanMerrill Simple solution: leave it unpinned, like I do. :P (With it unpinned, I can also see how many messages have been posted since the last time I saw it.)

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