Game Development

12:24 AM

You know what, fuck all this silly "the right way" stuff. I'll just code networking, and then fix issues as they arise. I really want some networked gameplay going.

Noctrine

Dealing with a the right way problem right now.

Trying to work on this server, and trying to avoid failing at rolling my own auth.

Talon876

@stephelton Oh so what were you LERPing between?

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

12:40 AM

@Noctrine Ouch. That's stuff that needs to be right.

John McDonald

2:04 AM

@WilliamMindWorXMariager Have you tried any game-related networking code before?

I know that my first attempt or two was really bad, although I think you probably have a better handle on it than I did back in the day.

and hopefully you've done some reading on the subject

Gustavo - Gtoknu

2:46 AM

I'm not used to java syntax, just C++. Quick question: If I pass a container as a parameter to some method, edit it in there, will the container be edited also outside? Or will it be copied?

actually, just want to know if it will be passed as value or reference.

just found a reasonable answer: yoda.arachsys.com/java/passing.html

ClassicThunder

3:29 AM

This job searching thing is getting tiring.

I'm starting to appreciate college.

If only because I get to sit around and do what ever I please.

thedaian

job searches suck

jobs suck

2

unemployment rocks

2

except for the lack of money

Gustavo - Gtoknu

@thedaian +1

ClassicThunder

lol this start up prefers I have a knowledge of these protcals

Protocols (TCP/IP, UDP, SOAP, XML/RPC, Diameter-radius/scap, SNMP-trap/mibs).

thedaian

oh, is that all.

protip with job applications: apply even if you don't have all the requirements

ClassicThunder

well half of those are not protocols and I have no clue what "Diameter-radius" is

I don't think they know what their doing

thedaian

3:33 AM

google search says it is a protocol: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diameter_(protocol)

so, yeah, all of those are protocols

ClassicThunder

hmm I actually know SNMP, TCP, and UDP

but its lines like this that make my iffy

Programming (Threading, Synchronization semafores/locks, Shared memory, Message queues, IPC, J2EE, vXML, CSS, Javascript, AJAX, Sockets)

also they say the work under the waterfall methodology :(

thedaian

that sounds fun

they seem to want someone who can do literally everything

ClassicThunder

3:50 AM

Its for a start-up so I wonder if the starter has researched whats needed but has no technical knowledge of how to implement his idea.

thedaian

that's possible. startups that don't exist yet are kind of a warning sign

ClassicThunder

hmm I'd love a job as se for internal tool development

Noctrine

@thedaian No reward without risk :p

@ClassicThunder arena.net/jobs Have you considered this company?

I think the company Tetrad works for was hiring as well.

ClassicThunder

@Noctrine Thanks :) I'll talk to him next time I see him.

arena.net makes an excellent pitch

Noctrine

4:07 AM

From what I hear, the leader of the tools team there drops f-bomb's all the time.

ClassicThunder

sounds like the environment Facebook Hackathons have

which I really liked

Noctrine

4:24 AM

@ClassicThunder lolapps.com/jobs there you go.

stephelton

@Talon876 in a couple cases, it was trivial to LERP between a starting point (for example, the color and size of a font) and an ending point (the exagerated color / size of the font) by using sin. sin is nice because if you map the lifetime of your effect to [0, pi] then you have an aesthetically pleasing transition from the norm to the extremity and back.

John McDonald

5:04 AM

Lol, look what I found hiding on my computer: youtube.com/watch?v=r5zNOZuIboE

And I still have the same epic hair, hah!

Gustavo - Gtoknu

nice :D

John McDonald

5:24 AM

Sweet, I found the exe and it still runs!

Trevor Powell

8:04 AM

@stephelton: Don't use sin!

Use 3x^2 - 2x^3, for 0.0<=x<=1.0, instead of sin(x) for 0.0<=x<=pi. Much faster to calculate, and gives a similar effect.

3

Jonathan Dickinson

@stephelton or use a sigmoid (1 / (1 + e^-x)) - they tend to look 'natural'.

Trevor Powell

I imagine that e^-x would be slow to calculate?

Jonathan Dickinson

Maybe, it's the 'x'th root of e

Trevor Powell

Of course, premature optimisation is a huge waste of time, so.. probably not worth worrying about anything I've said above. :)

I just use 3x^2 - 2x^3 because it's the one I've memorized, and it's dead simple. I use it everywhere. :)

Jonathan Dickinson

There are some other sigmoids (sigmoid means a general shape, not a specific function): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gjl-t(x).svg

Jonathan Dickinson

8:53 AM

@TrevorPowell gotta love WolframAlpha: yours: wolframalpha.com/input/…, mine: wolframalpha.com/input/…

Trevor Powell

@Jonathan: You got the range wrong on mine. :) Plot[3x^2 - 2x^3, {x, 0, 1}]

Er.. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Plot%5B3x%5E2+-+2x%5E3%2C+%7Bx%2C+0%2C+1%7D%5D

Jonathan Dickinson

@TrevorPowell oh that is a nice function.

feature request time - we should get wolfram images in chat text (or even better: questions and answers)

Jonathan Dickinson

9:17 AM

Vote for my feature!

0

Q: Wolfram Alpha Results in Chat (Possibly Q&A)

We were chatting about faster alternatives to sin(x) in chat and invariably a few equations started cropping up. A few links to Wolfram Alpha plots (example) were pasted into the chat and I was a bit disappointed that we didn't see the graphs directly in the chat (like you see questions etc.). Th...

feature-request

Stack Exchange

9:47 AM

1

Q: Wolfram Alpha Results in Chat (Possibly Q&A)

We were chatting about faster alternatives to sin(x) in chat and invariably a few equations started cropping up. A few links to Wolfram Alpha plots (example) were pasted into the chat and I was a bit disappointed that we didn't see the graphs directly in the chat (like you see questions etc.). Th...

feature-request

Jimmy

2:50 PM

man, the arenanet web server is fried

I guess a lot of people are interested in Guild Wars 2

thedaian

3:02 PM

makes sense. most of the people who liked the first one would be interested in the sequel

tylerrrr07

3:19 PM

Was there some announcement or something?

Jimmy

yes

well

arena.net/blog/mike-ferguson-on-guild-wars-2-world-vs-world

the site is working again

I'm a huge sucker for MMO territorial PVP

so this is like, the most I've ever been interested in Guild Wars

the system sounds much more fun than whatever WoW has

tylerrrr07

I miss Tabula Rasa :(

It was one faction but the NPCs could take over bases, etc.

Made you feel like you had a purpose in the game.

Was the most fantastic grinding one could ever do

If MMOs weren't so impossible from an indie perspective... I would basically remake that game

GW2 looks promising though based on that post

Jimmy

lol, MMOs impossible from an indie perspective?!?? :P

I guess you are not this guy: gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/12801/…

tylerrrr07

I did enjoy the presentation of that question hehe.

Jimmy

I kid a lot, but I guess I'm also one of "those guys" :P

thedaian

3:35 PM

ok, even just skimming that Guild Wars 2 blog post, I'm excited, because that is what MMOs should be doing to break away from being WoW clone #431

TreDubZedd

4:05 PM

@thedaian link?

Jimmy

arena.net/blog/mike-ferguson-on-guild-wars-2-world-vs-world

John McDonald

@Jimmy Aaannd... back down

Jimmy

summary: decently large scale (100vs 100 vs 100) 3-sided 2-week-long battles

your team is your entire server, which are matched up against each other in 3-way battles on a 2-week-long instanced battle

involving a huge-a** central keep, individual keeps, smaller castles, supply depots, villages etc

so a mix of small and large objectives

holding objectives gains your entire team war points

trebuchets, catapults, seige golems, arrow carts etc.

John McDonald

Nice, so MMO capture-point based. That... actually sounds like a lot of fun

Jimmy

The 3-way system is a good way of preventing a two-week one-sided beatdown if a good server gets matched up against a bad server.

John McDonald

4:16 PM

yeah, it's interesting. The only other 3-team game I can think of is Pirates, Vikings and Knights

Jimmy

wasn't daoc 3-way?

John McDonald

just looked it up, and yup

Jimmy

IMHO, 2-faction warfare is really stale

thedaian

See: WW1

John McDonald

@Jimmy well, depends on the genre

TreDubZedd

4:20 PM

I'm looking forward to the days of n-faction warfare in MMOs

Jimmy

well, I mean, in terms of the level of intrigue and high-level strategy

@TreDubZedd same

TreDubZedd

I suppose "guilds" are an attempt at that...

Jimmy

there's still plenty of tactical decisions you need to make in 2-faction warfare, as well as things like positioning etc.

thedaian

mmmm, infinite faction warfare

Noctrine

Except most games just have guilds as subsets of larger factions

tylerrrr07

4:21 PM

Darkfall ftw then?

Jimmy

see, even when you have N-factions, in a largescale conflict, people will kind of coalesce into a handful of major alliances anyways

TreDubZedd

@Noctrine so it's poor implementation, then.

Jimmy

so at a given point in time, the major conflict is still roughly 2-faction

TreDubZedd

The fact that there are other (n-2) factions there to subvert the conflict, though, makes it interesting.

John McDonald

@Jimmy yay! Back up

Jimmy

4:23 PM

agreed

the third parties will either wait for a good opportunity to sweep in, or negotiate to jump in on one side or the other, or will sit out entirely, depending on the situation, but it's a highly dynamic situation

Noctrine

1

Q: Which Side Was Hit?

I am working on an Android game and I have two objects A and B (both rectangles) and when they collide I simply want to know which side of B was hit. I have detected the collision fine, but I am having trouble figuring out which side of the rectangle B took the hit? Any ideas? Thanks!

android java collision-detection physics graphics

On the fence with that one.

TreDubZedd

@Noctrine GDSE chat is no place for puns.

Noctrine

lol, didn't even notice.

thedaian

You could even say.... he was blindsided.

YEEEEAAAAHH!

TreDubZedd

It burns...

thedaian

4:28 PM

However, Cooking.SE is the place for buns.

And Christianity.SE is the place for nuns.

Jimmy

.............................................................................

thedaian

Firearms.SE is the place for guns.

(ok I'll stop now)

ClassicThunder

5:14 PM

linkedin is scary

how does it know I know these people?

John McDonald

friends of friends of friends that used to work at the same company as you in a different department

tylerrrr07

You mean outside of people who are connected through workplace or education?

ClassicThunder

I found a girl a dated 3 years ago but haven't ever worked with or added on FB or G+

We shared 1 class as a freshman

tylerrrr07

I have a theory that they imported their address books but never added you

I had a weird thing happen to me too and I never imported my address book

One being my landlord and one person I did some freelance work for in high school

So unless linkedin imported my address book without my permission...

or I gave it indirect permission by not opting out of something...

thedaian

yeah, it probably does a reverse address import thing

that makes a lot more sense than randomly stalking you

ClassicThunder

5:23 PM

hmm makes sense

linkedin is very aggressive in its linking in

accidentally emailed my entire address book with invites

thedaian

yeesh

ClassicThunder

didn't notice I did it too until a couple of IT ticketing systems confirmed they had created tickets for my requests

thedaian

haha

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

6:09 PM

@JohnMcDonald I have, but it wasn't something that needed to handle high latency.

John McDonald

Ok, cool

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

For now I'll accept some visual oddities in favor of getting something to play around with.

John McDonald

yup, something to work with. As long as you keep it as decoupled as possible, and you have a rough idea of how it should fit together, you should be alright

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

@JonathanDickinson Can't edit your meta post, but the second log(n) link is broken. Victim of a CnP I bet.

Jonathan Dickinson

6:38 PM

@WilliamMindWorXMariager indeed a victim of CnP. Odd that you can't edit it. Thanks for pointing out the error.

Noctrine

Free-editing is disabled on site-metas

Gajet

8:19 PM

-1

Q: Question regarding engines, specifically UDK vs. Unity

I am a an aspiring artist who recently has been very interested in game development and design. I am not working with a team of any kind, starting from the ground-up, and only have access to free tools (i.e. Blender, UDK, or Unity Free). I am just wondering if you could give me insight into ...

engine unity udk unreal

this question is closed as expected,

but I guess people should be able to ask questions to compare to technologies.

I mean it should be OK to ask "what are pros and cons to choose between UDK and Unity"

John McDonald

That's a discussion, there's no right answer, people will get votes based on popularity rather than correctness

Stack Overflow Blog: Gorilla vs. Shark

Posted by Jeff Atwood on August 15th, 2011

Who would win in a fight between a Gorilla and a Shark?

OK, maybe you’re thinking that’s a ridiculous question. Perhaps it is. But various forms of this question get asked all the time. Consider this now-ancient Stack Overflow question titled Python v. Perl:

Okay, so I’m finally making the jump into scripting languages and I have decided to focus on either Python or Perl. The problem is: I don’t know which to cut my teeth on.

Most of my programming experience is in C, Java, and C++. There’s no specific task I would be learning Python/Perl for, other that possibly applying it to my dev work to make life easier in general. …

Gajet

I've already read that link,

John McDonald

Well... I couldn't tell by the way you were talking

Gajet

but it's saying it's pointless to direct asker to one direction, since it's something based on people experience.

but there are many different useful question out there

John McDonald

Where does that say to give links to related non-questions?

thedaian

8:25 PM

simply put, comparing two technologies or whatever else is considered off topic on all StackExchange questions

Gajet

check this quesiton :

2

Q: Load state / continue game based on user input

I'm working on a rather simple 2D game, with a pretty small set of values that will need to be preserved for a user to pick up where they left off last time they played. Rather than saving/loading the state of the game for users to leave/return, I'm considering something akin to what MegaMan did...

game-design algorithm savegame

this one is also comparing to approaches

but it's OK since he didn't ask which one I choose, he asked about what are good with each method

we can have question like that one, I mean it's not about which technologies to use but about what are good with each technology.

John McDonald

So you'd like to have one giant question that describes the good and bad about C, C++, Java, Javascript, HTML, HTML5, ASP, PHP, C#, VB, Different versions of .Net, Haskel, Prolog, Logo, Perl, Delphi, Smalltalk, Objective C, F#, ASM, common John, you can do better... JSP, SQL, LINQ, Ruby, BASIC, ...

thedaian

golf claps nice language list

Gajet

@JohnMcDonald don't be insane, you know what I mean!

John McDonald

People ask about pretty every one of those, even ASM

Gajet

8:33 PM

there are quite a lot of such a lists when you try buy a cell phone.

site will compare two model, tell in which features they are same, and in which one, they are not.

thedaian

yeah, but that's completely different

Gajet

and if they are not same, which one is doing better.

thedaian

and it's not the job of stackexchange to do that

Gajet

one can ask the same thing about c++/perl.

and he get answer one is good performance and one is good for data management (if I'm not wrong)

tylerrrr07

Is it just me... or are the Gorilla and Shark high fiving? I think its because the match is rigged but I could be wrong...

John McDonald

8:36 PM

I just read a great quote on the elevator today: "I don't know how to be successful, but I know how to be unsuccessful: Try to please everybody"

Gajet

it's completely different from that blog.

thedaian

@Gajet except that's not something for stackexchange to do

also they are totally high fiving

Gajet

then where can I find such a comparing lists?

thedaian

i don't know

not here, though

might have to make your own

John McDonald

yeah, not here

Wikipedia has some pretty good comparison lists

Eg: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Gajet

8:38 PM

I'm not agreed to that. as my point of view, comparing questions are constructive

thedaian

it's not a bad idea, but it's not what this site is about, and that's basically what the blog post is saying.

tylerrrr07

In Gajet's defense this site is incredibly inconsistent in what it closes and what it doesn't.

Just followed a link from one question to another

20

Q: Good GUI for OpenGL

I am starting to learn OpenGL with FreeGLUT using the Superbible and the knowledge i have from my elementary graphics to brush up on my skills. To get more from this experience i want to integrate a GUI to overwrite the one FreeGLUT uses, now my question is this: is this thing possible and what ...

c++ opengl gui

Is this question not a "which technology to use" (from the FAQ) question because it has 3 specific bullets?

John McDonald

yeah, that question was converted to CW, and really, CW questions should all be closed

tylerrrr07

ok

IMO - CW pages should look at least somewhat different than a question because I completely missed that. Is there a reason it doesn't?

Gajet

@JohnMcDonald CW is there because it's talking about technology,

tylerrrr07

8:46 PM

All I see is the little grey text "community wiki"

Gajet

it's not about ones knowledge but about global knowing about some matter!

all comparing questions could also be defined as CW.

I'm also against "gorilla vs. shark" but I think "what is gorilla good for when we have shark!" is a good question.

John McDonald

yeah, here at SE, they are trying to foster an environment where Experts on the subject will enjoy hanging out and answering well-written questions with fact-based answers. I don't think "Which technology do I use" questions really interest those target "experts"

Gajet

"which technology do I use" is not, but "what is good with this technology" is.

John McDonald

CW is used for historical purposes, but today, we won't convert questions into CWs unless we first discuss it at length in chat/meta

@Gajet usually those questions can easily be covered by reading the FAQ or doc for the tech in question

Gajet

for instance, do you get bored if you see a question with title "why people use c++ to develop games"

John McDonald

8:52 PM

Like: "What is the good part of OpenGL?"

Gajet

yeah.

it has completely different nature,

like we already discussed it's like the difference between singleton and global variable. while they are really close, they are totally different

John McDonald

Does that mean it makes a good SE question? No

There's no answer, it's a discussion, which is why it happened in chat

tylerrrr07

11

Q: Purpose of Community Wiki?

I am very confused as to the true/original/intended purpose of community wiki? Based on my experience, questions are turned into community wiki on 'iffy' questions that are borderline allowed or somewhat-argumentative/subjective...I also have observed that questions with a lot of answers or will...

community-wiki discussion

Found that

Gajet

@tylerrrr07 exactly as I expected

@JohnMcDonald chat is good for "which one should I use".

John McDonald

Well... if you created a question, it would just get closed. If you asked it here, the worst that would happen is that you'd be ignored

Gajet

8:58 PM

basically because he needs answer right away, and the discussed materials are not usable even one month later.

John McDonald

And because it's of no help to the next person, period

Everyone needs something slightly different

Gajet

but "what is good with X" is usable almost no matter how much time passes.

every one could see if the listed features match their needs or not.

John McDonald

I was trying to say that questions Like: "What is the good part of OpenGL?" are bad because those questions can easily be covered by reading the FAQ or doc for the tech in question

Gajet

yeah, but it's not bad because it's subjective.

when one is looking between "UDK and unity", there is no such a doc to cover the differences

and there are also less common technologies out there that are used but doesn't have any summarized documentation with them.

for example to choose between "andengine, libgdx, and cocos2d-android"

one should read more than 200 pages of manuals, since on the outside all are same good game-engines, written in java, with lots of games released.

you'll notice the differences only when you have tried both(or all three).

John McDonald

You're back to the comparisons. If you go to UDK's website and Unity's website, I bet they both have a point-form list somewhere that says what they do best

Gajet

9:06 PM

you can check both now, I've search between engines many times. they all say they are best at everything

John McDonald

each person's answer is going to be different, each have their own strengths and weaknesses, and it also greatly depends on the OPs experience

Gajet

check the link @tylerrrr07 provided, that's the reason CW exist.

John McDonald

It is not

An excuse to post subjective question
An excuse to post polls
A get out of jail free card for posting questions that does not meet the criteria for a specific site

How is a technology question not subjective?

tylerrrr07

I think "A get out of jail free card for posting questions that does not meet the criteria for a specific site" is the real kicker

Gajet

check this one:gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/24066/cinematic-in-2d-games

how is this question different from what I'm trying to say?

even tetrad, didn't even downvote that question.

***unrelated*** oooof, for just a one minute this page was filtered (I guess because it had chat in URL!).

@ClassicThunder I just order robots to build my robots, it's easier this way.

ClassicThunder

9:39 PM

Any good 2D skeletal animation systems in C#?

I started making my own. But I decided its too much work.

Tetrad

The reason this site is "inconsistent" with what it closes is because the moderating philosophy has changed

anything from the last few months of last year is a lot more prone to be closed than questions from before then

gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/3617/good-gui-for-opengl is from more than a year ago

Other sites are dealing with similar issues: meta.scicomp.stackexchange.com/a/180

In general @gajet, I think that any "which tech to use" questions are bad simply because they're either too general or they're too specific. "UDK vs. Unity" isn't a good question simply because it's impossible to figure out what information the asker really wants to know because they don't have experience with the tools.

The needs for a specific project are usually so varied and complex that the only person who can really answer "which tech should I use" is the person asking the question.

If you want proof that moderating style has changed, just look at this question: gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/2029/… It was one that I wrote way back in the day that I later decided was a bad question for the Q&A format, so I closed it.

Also, for the record, "being subjective" isn't necessarily a reason to close a question: blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/09/good-subjective-bad-subjective

stephelton

9:59 PM

@TrevorPowell thanks, i'll give that a try. this is being calculated in lua, so i imagine the overhead involved may outweigh any performance gains, but i'll definitely play with that.

Trevor Powell

That's a completely fair point!

stephelton

anyway, the concept of using mathematical functions like this to create aesthetic effects is very interesting to me; i'm nowhere near done playing around

so thanks for the tip :)

Jimmy

lua seems to be decently fast

it's Jitted isn't it?

stephelton

doesn't look like it. there's a LuaJIT project out there...

thedaian

read that as Jilted. got confused.

stephelton

10:03 PM

i haven't had performance problems with it, but i took this into consideration from the beginning

Trevor Powell

Ease-in Ease-Out: 3x^2 - 2x^3. Slam-in Ease-Out: (x-1)^2. Ease-in Slam-Out: x^2

Jimmy

oh, i thought LuaJit was the default implementation

shows how much I know about Lua :P

Trevor Powell

My performance testing with Lua (about six years ago) was that it averaged about 1/20th the speed of native code. Which was still vastly faster than any other runtime scripting language I tested.

stephelton

that sounds about right. my rule of thumb has been to use native code anytime i'm doing something multiple times per frame

Jimmy

@TrevorPowell luajit.org/performance_x86.html

that seems to indicate JITted Lua is about 20 times faster than regular Lua :P

coincidence?

Trevor Powell

10:08 PM

(I ran those tests on a PlayStation 2, incidentally. No clue how those results compare against a PC. There were definitely a few things I had to do to get Lua working on PS2 to get it to operate nicely there)

(I assume that luajit wouldn't run on PS2. ;D )

John McDonald

@Tetrad, well put

Trevor Powell

Whoops, my 'slam in-ease out' formula was inverted. Should really be double-checking those before posting them. :) Should have been 1 - (x-1)^2

Trevor Powell

10:24 PM

Those are all simplified versions of a more generic spline interpolator, which (with arbitrary starting position pos1, ending position pos2, starting velocity vel1 and ending velocity vel2) looks like this: ((2x^3-3x^2+1) * pos1) + ((x^3 - 2x^2 + x) * vel1) + ((-2*x^3 + 3*x^2) * pos2) + ((x^3-x^2) * vel2) (That works for any floating point math type that supports +, -, and scalar * operators. So most multi-dimensional vector implementations will work just fine, too)

Jimmy

10:35 PM

looks like I chose a wise career path. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment_theorem

stephelton

10:53 PM

@TrevorPowell Interesting

Trevor Powell

Also, OMG math. xD

(If you substitute 0 for 'pos1', 'vel1', and 'vel2', and 1 for 'pos2', the math simplifies down to the ease-in ease-out function I gave earlier. 0 for 'pos1' and 'vel2', and 1 for 'pos2' and 'vel1' simplifies down to the slam-in ease-out function I gave earlier, etc)

Transcript for