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2:12 PM
@Cerberus Come spend a bar in WMT. We've been attacked by an upstart with crummy decks. I'm spent and preparing for sniping. )))
Also, @kit was going to kick some ass IIRC...
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 He's not going to fall for that one again. Not unless you offer some other inducement.
 
2:32 PM
Well actually I was meaning to ask for something for quite some time. Even if you don't have the time to fight, please do at least log in once a day, so that our activity bar goes up. Otherwise it's really hard to recruit new people. They will join, see that we are only half full and only half of us are active, and they will leave right away. @Cer @Kit @Rob @Vit
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 I do log in at least once a day, and normally put in multiple fights on multiple wars.
 
I know. So does Vitaly. I'm just pinging everyone.
You know that we are really laid back and all, and in fact Team AFK got to the top 30 with the same philosophy, but they are full. And that's what I'm trying to achieve: get us to 50 people, then the core people can just completely relax once and for all.
 
My decks are getting stale, though. I have new cards but am not really sure how to put them together into viable forces. I've tried a bunch of things that have failed miserably against plain old def decks. Still getting a lot out of Draconecrosopras, but Gorelesup is just about dead against any really competitive factions.
 
Yeah I find myself surging with LtW most of the time.
 
Same.
 
2:38 PM
I kicked out OPollo from my Gorelesup, in favor of Hephatat, and it does work fine against certain factions, but only against certain factions.
 
Though that's when I run into nasty stall walls.
 
Oh yes.
But anyhow, the idea is to get us to 50 people then for all I care we can all collectively switch to Fight with empty decks.
 
user19161
I feel like I am missing out all the fun. But I really hate gaming.
 
Wills gonna hate.
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 I wonder how it would affect game play to have a Super Surge, in which you would give up two moves before you had to commit to a deck.
 
2:40 PM
Hard to tell.
More people will be running Pathdalia, I guess.
 
user19161
-2
Q: Related to Behaviour Science

RajaI need to know what do you call the person who written always on written things. I have Read in my behaviour Science.Its is something called(kythopatic) but not confirm. Please tell if some know this or heard about this.

 
user19161
Is there any reason why this is not closed yet?
 
Yeah. I wonder if there's anything I can add to my Draconecrosopras to make it more versatile.
 
Cowbell.
Add seven cowbell.
Or even eight.
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 What are the stats on cowbell?
 
2:42 PM
Actually I still don't have Necrogeddon.
@Robusto OVER 9000.
 
user19161
1
Q: usage of up(or down) after a verb

SocarskyThere are lots of instance of using 'up' or 'down' after verbs. Instances: eat up, drink up, meet up, finish up, start up, fill up, clean up, wipe up, tie up What do they add as meaning to a verb exactly?

 
It's pretty nice. I've defeated Pathdalia with it.
 
user19161
Interesting question which I think should remain open.
 
@WillHunting We've had something like that with another preposition. Robusto answered it.
"Speak out" or something.
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 I left myself open for that one.
 
2:44 PM
9
A: What's the meaning of 'out' when it comes after a verb ?

RobustoUsually when applied to a verb involving speech, out involves the addressing of a group, normally a non-specific group, as in "anyone who will listen." John spoke out when he saw injustice being done. Mary shouted out for help. The bailiff read out the charges against the defendant....

@Robusto And don't forget to multiply by eight. Or at least seven.
 
user19161
Checking up in a dictionary gives over 9000 meanings. One can say it is a GR question, or there may be some deep theory behind it.
 
Anyhoo, I'm out for half an hour or so. See you on the front.
 
user19161
See you at the back.
 
@WillHunting It is gen ref or else a list question, because you really have to learn all the uses. To "live something up" and "live something down" are not opposite in meaning, for example.
 
And "give up" has two completely unrelated meanings.
 
2:48 PM
Also you can screw something up, sweeten it up, mark it up, look it up — all different in meaning. You can knock someone up and knock someone down. Unrelated.
The question really is unanswerable in our SE format.
 
look someone up, look someone down, look someone up and down
 
There could be an etymological pattern though. I'm really on the fence.
 
user19161
We can also do it sideways, like a crab!
 
The most common ground is using up as an intensifier. But it's not common enough to make a general rule.
 
Yeah...
 
user19161
2:51 PM
I thought you are going out?
 
@MattЭллен How do you look someone down? You can stare them down, but that's not the same thing.
 
@WillHunting I am going up so you can sort it up.
Or down.
But now I'm out.
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 Speak up, if you're going to speak down to him.
 
@Robusto hmmm I proabbly meant stare them down
 
Listen up: you guys should take this transcript, clean it up, then write it down as an answer
 
2:52 PM
Actually, @Reg is over and out.
 
but you can look down on someone
 
Then it can be voted up, or voted down.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Let's not out the ante on this one.
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 Ok. It's up to you.
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 Why do people insist on bringing up things that only bring me down?
 
2:54 PM
@Robusto lighten up! you knew what would happen when you came down here
 
My son brought something up last night while he was sleeping. I had to clean him up then put him back down.
 
@Robusto You know, if you are going up, why not go up in style?
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 Because I would only go down in flames.
 
@Robusto You mean annihilation. From another galaxy.
 
user19161
Reg is not over and out but still in.
 
2:55 PM
I have to be in to make up for your being out.
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 I'm still not going to make out with you.
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 WTF?
 
user19161
You can make it up to your partner by making out with him or her.
 
user19161
Just be careful not to make extra stuff.
 
I wake up, I make up, I take my time and I don't feel I have to hurry, I no longer need you.
"For No One" is a song written by Paul McCartney (credited to Lennon–McCartney) that originally appeared on The Beatles' seventh album, Revolver. A baroque pop song about the end of a relationship, it was one of McCartney's most mature and poignant works upon its release. Mostly performed by the composer, the track is distinguished by its French horn solo, performed by Alan Civil and used as an obbligato in the final verse. John Lennon said of the song, "One of my favourites of his—a nice piece of work." Writing and recording McCartney recalls writing "For No One" in the bathro...
 
2:57 PM
@RegDwightѬſ道 Woke up, fell out of bed, dragged a comb across my head ...
 
user19161
I have no idea what we are talking about anymore.
 
"A Day in the Life" is a song by The Beatles, the final track on the group's 1967 album Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. Credited to Lennon–McCartney, the song comprises distinct segments written independently by John Lennon and Paul McCartney, with orchestral additions. While Lennon’s lyrics were inspired by contemporary newspaper articles, McCartney’s were reminiscent of his youth. The decisions to link sections of the song with orchestral glissandos and to end the song with a sustained piano chord were made only after the rest of the song had been recorded. The supposed dru...
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 OK will do my best!
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 Don't they mean "For Noöne"?
 
2:58 PM
They do mean, they just can't spell.
And now I'm upside out. Laters.
 
You are upside down and inside out.
 
Bye!
The only match I won was against an empty deck.
 
Actually, a couple of people should vote up Socarsky so he can see the chat transcript.
Or maybe he can, but just not talk.
 
Whom?
 
@Robusto indeed - he can see but not participate
20 reps required to talk
 
3:01 PM
19 mins ago, by Will Hunting
1
Q: usage of up(or down) after a verb

SocarskyThere are lots of instance of using 'up' or 'down' after verbs. Instances: eat up, drink up, meet up, finish up, start up, fill up, clean up, wipe up, tie up What do they add as meaning to a verb exactly?

 
user19161
I have run out of votes today. I gave three people presents today.
 
thanks @WillHunting :)
 
@WillHunting Ooh, what did you get me?
 
Ok I voted him even though I'm unsure about the question.
 
user19161
@Robusto Oh, sorry. I did not give you any presents because I felt you did not need any.
 
3:03 PM
@WillHunting I see how it works. No, I don't need presents. But everyone likes them. Especially pie.
 
user19161
My presents are usually given in threes.
 
user19161
There are not many Santa Clauses here.
 
@Cerberus Gosub is totally different than goto
 
user19161
So if you get three presents, it's probably me.
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 And I thought there couldn't be anything creepier than the late Michael Jackson.
@MrShinyandNew安宇 As we've noted, you can goto hell but you can't gosub there.
 
3:06 PM
@Robusto I have up-voted the question and left you a comment.
Better not close questions on me in the morning.
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh?
 
@Robusto Hm, true. otherwise you could just end sub and return whence you came
 
@Cerberus does it make you cranky?
 
@MattЭллен It is rather that I already am cranky. A tiny bit. Getting up just sucks.
 
@Cerberus yes it does
 
@Cerberus goto just branches to an arbitrary statement in the code; over-use of goto leads to code that cannot be reliably understood because you don't know under what circumstances the control-flow reaches a certain place. gosub is just a way of branching to a function then coming back when the function is done. The code is still structured.
brb
 
user19161
3:09 PM
Socarsky needs one more vote to reach 20, pseudo-Santa Clauses shine!
 
@Cerberus Unless I'm going to do something in the day worth getting up for
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 And what is a "statement"?
@MattЭллен I don't know, even then...
 
I'm more a fan of the comefrom statement.
 
@Cerberus really? That's a little sad. If I'm going to see someone or something and I've been looking forward to it getting up is easy :)
 
@MetaEd Quoi?
@MattЭллен Hmm then you're no hard-core un-morning person!
 
3:13 PM
You're not familiar with the comefrom statement?
 
user19161
@MattЭллен You might not even be able to sleep the previous night from the excitement.
 
@MetaEd Not at all. Unless it is a kind of mollusc.
 
@Cerberus :D I suppose that's true. I'm a mediocre unmorning person. I do work better in the evening/night than during the day.
 
@MattЭллен I wish we could trade places!
 
@WillHunting That's possible, but I've not had that problem since I was a child :D
@Cerberus I wish I could grant you wishes
 
3:15 PM
I have to set my alarm clock 365 days a year.
 
@Cerberus A basic unit of code, such as "print X".
 
user19161
In Soviet Russia clock sets you!
 
@MattЭллен I guess you're no fairy.
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Okay, so like an un-concatenated line?
And how does one refer code to an arbitrary statement? Not by line number, I hope??
 
user19161
The hairy fairy loved dairy.
 
@Cerberus In many languages, you can only have one statement per line. And yes, GOTO is often implemented by line-number.
The line numbers are actually just labels, only the labels have to be numeric strings that are numerically monotonically increasing
In more modern languages that don't have numbered lines, but still have goto, you have to declare a label at the point where you want to jump to. This reduces the harm that GOTO can cause because you typically don't see labels on each line in those cases.
 
3:18 PM
It's a branch statement that appears at the destination instead of at the origin. Consider this BASIC code:
10 COMEFROM 40
20 X=X+1
30 PRINT X
40 END
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 That sounds horrible. Guess what, AHK has a Goto command, but it actually goes to a Label, not a command. In the Help file, there is no indication that a label could be a line number, so it is suggested that Goto does the same thing as Gosub (both entries have an example where the command leads to MyLabel). So either Goto has been sabotaged by AHK's maker, or its true function is undocumented on purpose.
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Right, but, if you have to declare a label for Goto, then what's the difference with Gosub?
@MetaEd So what does that do? The code loops to 10 after 40?
 
This is why we created methods, so we wouldn't have to use Gosub or Goto.
 
What are methods?
Functions?
 
Methods are functions that are members of an object class.
 
methods are functions that are part of a class
jinx
 
3:22 PM
Jinx.
 
metajinx
 
Damn, I got my jinx in first, but yours popped in anyway.
 
@Robusto Oh...and what is an object again?
 
I met a jinx and it was you!
 
3:23 PM
@Cerberus An object is a woman who is not treated as a human being. Cf. "Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man!" from The Big Lebowski.
 
methods are better understood as behaviours. If you think of a class as a type of agent then it's methods are the behaviours it can perform
 
@Cerberus The difference is that when you're in a sub, there is a stack of subroutine calls. You can end your subroutine and return to the original point.
10 print "hello"
20 for i = 1 to 10
30 gosub 100
40 end for
50 end
100 print "Now you're in a subroutine"
110 return
 
objects are instances of a class
 
@Robusto So objects are good. OK. Got it.
 
Objects make modern programming possible. And the best programming languages treat functions as first-class objects. The best of both worlds.
 
3:25 PM
indeed
 
In my sample program, (who knows if it works?) the lines 10-50 represent a well-formed routine which does something, then loops and does something else 10 times. The body of the loop is not inline, but is rather contained somewhere else, in a subroutine
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh, Goto end the ehm main routine when it's done? I see.
 
@Cerberus If instead we did "goto 100", then on 110 there's no way to return to the original calling point unless you put "goto 40"
and then you have two problems. One, your goto-subroutine can only be called from one place, and two, your code is really hard to maintain
and three, you can't look at a random line of code and understand how you get there.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Really! In AHK, the main routine gets interrupted by a Gosub, then magically returns to the point of interruption when the subroutine is finished.
 
@Cerberus yeah, exactly. if you goto, you probably can't goback
 
3:28 PM
@MrShinyandNew安宇 And with Gosub, you don't automatically go back either, right?
 
Basic also has a little known procedure known as GOFUCKYOURSELF. It comes up a lot when programmers use too many GOTO and GOSUB statements.
 
@Cerberus no, you DO automatically go back... well, it depends on how the language works. In BASIC, you have to explicitly return. In some other languages, the source code isn't valid unless it indicates the end point of the procedure/subroutine
 
Oh man. You guys are reminding me too much of the time I had to TA for the 10 a.m. sections dives back into coffee
 
I see.
 
In languages where the end of a subroutine is known, then when you reach that end you have to go somewhere or else the program would terminate. The only logical place to go is where you came from.
 
3:30 PM
Isn't it funny how I use all these things without knowing what they are called?
 
@Cer @Rob @Kit new active war.
 
@Cerberus funny like a clown shooting puppies
 
@RegDwightѬſ道 I just spent all my energy in the existing war...
 
I know.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yay!
 
3:31 PM
@RegDwightѬſ道 Huh? Instead of sniping?
 
Yes. 900 behind.
And they are active.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 It shows the main benefit of AHK: it is extremely accessible to newcomers, has a very flat learning curve.
You don't need to know anything to start.
 
@Cerberus I think you're probably underestimating your potential.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hardly. I got bored with Javascript after the Hello World box. I couldn't get it to do what I wanted to, so I quit.
 
The kind of person I consider a "beginner" or "newcomer" is not the kind of person I consider to write scripts, in any language, to bind two programs together so that when you wiggle the mouse a certain way and then type a magic incantation the first program tells all its dirty secrets to the second program
@Cerberus You just lack the motivation
And Javascript is a challenging first choice for programming because it usually lives in a complicated environment.
 
3:34 PM
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Heh, well, the only information my mouse-gesture program sens to AHK is a hotkey.
 
@Cerberus Depending on the language. Typically: when you reach 40, the branch occurs. So the END does not execute; instead, you branch back to 10.
 
user19161
If I want to learn programming what is the first language I should learn?
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Then how come I did pick up AHK without lack of motivation?
 
@WillHunting Logo!
I'm so not even kidding. I adore the turtles.
 
The thing is, with AHK, you can make a simple but useful script in five minutes if you've never programmed anything in your life.
 
user19161
3:36 PM
Logo is a multi-paradigm computer programming language used in education. It is an adaptation and dialect of the Lisp language; some have called it Lisp without the parentheses. It was originally conceived and written as a functional programming language, and drove a mechanical turtle as an output device. It also has significant facilities for handling lists, files, I/O, and recursion. Today it is remembered mainly for its turtle graphics, though for tertiary level teaching it has been superseded by Scheme, and scripting languages. Logo was created in 1967 for educational use, more so ...
 
user19161
I thought aedia was talking about lego bricks.
 
@Cerberus your motivation is laziness: you wanted to automate your computer. You probably started really small, like just binding mouse gestures to keystrokes or something, something that isn't really programming, but then you read the manual and started finding new ways to be lazy by first being not lazy
 
All good programmers are motivated by laziness
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 True. But the transition is extremely smooth, and the language remains quite simple even with more complex things.
 
@WillHunting What do you know already? Anything?
@Cerberus most languages are quite simple.
 
user19161
3:37 PM
@MrShinyandNew安宇 No, hence first.
 
@WillHunting Well, you know TeX, right?
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Javascript wasn't simple enough for me to get it to do what I wanted.
 
@WillHunting do you know html? any JS at all?
 
user19161
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah but it's only pseudo.
 
@Cerberus Javascript isn't the problem. Javascript in HTML is the problem
 
3:38 PM
There's another really cool thing but I can't remember what it's called... Scratch, maybe?
 
I really think AHK is special.
 
user19161
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Nope, I am actually very bad at computers.
 
@WillHunting Depends on the purpose.
 
Yeah, here it is: scratch.mit.edu
 
@WillHunting So pick a goal. What do you hope to achieve? just "learning programming concepts"?
 
3:39 PM
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Javascript is awesome.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Could be. I followed a tutorial, but it didn't work as it should. I guess another thing about AHK is that it has an extremely well-written help file that really explains everything.
 
user19161
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Mm, something useful and applicable in the real world.
 
@Robusto yeah the more I use it the more I like it.
 
Scratch is interactive, it's very cute, good for kids, but you don't really learn much about how to write a good program.
 
@WillHunting it helps to have a more concrete goal.
 
user19161
3:40 PM
@MrShinyandNew安宇 I see, I guess it's NARQ then!
 
@MetaEd Well but it's good for learning a few concepts. It's good to get interested, to see the results of your actions, with something like that; we used to have to install things like the Toogl library for C++ for people to have that opportunity...
 
@WillHunting in any case, you could do worse than learning python, or java, or C#. There is so much to learn right off the bat that it hardly matters which language you choose. I'd avoid anything that doesn't have a garbage collector at first, so avoid C, C++, etc.
@Robusto yes, function pointers, exactly. But that's a bit advanced for people who need to first understand loops, and arrays, and if statements.
I remember when I first saw a function pointer in university. It blew my mind.
It took me a long time to even understand what was happening.
 
user19161
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Er, what do you mean by garbage collector?
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 How are if-statements difficult to understand?
I still don't truly understand objects or arrays.
 
3:46 PM
@WillHunting in some languages you have to manage memory yourself. Other languages have garbage collectors, so you don't have to manage memory. I recommend starting with those. But you're not a real programmer until you've spent at least a little time managing memory. However, you can get bogged down doing that and miss the real lessons. Hence, I recommend python, java, c#, etc.
 
@WillHunting Some languages manage memory for you and others don't - they require you to make sure the stuff you're no longer using is freed up.
 
@Cerberus You have no idea how hard they are to understand for some people.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 But why? They are like natural language?
 
@Cerberus bzzt, programming is not at all natural to many people. I used to bash my head against the desk in high school trying to explain this stuff to some of the students.
 
If x=10, then destroy earth
How is this not natural ^?
I'm only talking about if-statements.
 
3:48 PM
@Cerberus The fact that it's natural to you suggests that you can be taught how to program.
 
x=10
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Everybody uses if-staments in daily speech.
 
Hey. Nothing happened.
 
@Cerberus yes, me too. people maybe understand the sort-of idea, but have no idea how to express it to a computer
 
Oh. I bet it's a syntax error.
x := 10
 
3:48 PM
@MetaEd error in function: destroys Ed Sorry, pal!
 
Dammit! Still here!
 
No, I've still got a pointer to earth here, so the GC hasn't collected it yet
 
@WillHunting How's your mathematics?
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 But once they see "if x=10, quit program", they should normally easily get what it is about, right?
@MetaEd Oops then the entire code is faulty.
 
user19161
@MetaEd Average.
 
3:50 PM
@Cerberus yes, sometimes.
Reading code is sometimes easier than writing it.
 
Okay ... then how's your interest in mathematics? Recreational mathematics, say?
 
Sometimes harder
 
@MetaEd Does one really need much mathematics for simple coding?
 
@Cerberus No but one needs mathematical aptitude.
 
@Cerberus Coding is pretty much nothing but mathematics.
 
3:51 PM
@MrShinyandNew安宇 In any case, I think objects and arrays are much harder, as evidenced by the fact that I don't understand what they are good for yet at all.
 
user19161
@MetaEd Also average now.
 
@MetaEd I don't know, I rarely use it.
 
Well then maybe it's a bit of a long shot, but I will still recommend: projecteuler.net
 
Oh yes!
 
Pick a language and try the first problem or two.
 
user19161
3:52 PM
@MetaEd Ah, heard of it.
 
Here's an object in Javascript:
var myObject = {userName:"Cerberus", gender: "male", nationality: "Dutch"}

Now, we can reference the properties of the object so:

var aUserName = myObject.userName

aUserName now is set to "Cerberus". And so on.
 
user19161
Hehe.
 
@Robusto Okay, and how is this different from just declaring a bunch of variables, namely myObject_userName, myObject_gender (and store "Cerberus", "male" in them, respectively)?
I see what you did with "my", by the way.
 
@Cerberus yeah, objects and arrays are really easy. they are just containers for data.
 
user19161
Socarsky now has 20, yay!
 
3:54 PM
@Cerberus convenience is the difference
 
@Cerberus: In that script I gave you for Greasemonkey, I used the location object of your browser window. location.href is the URL the window is currently showing.
 
Some objects have lots of things inside them. An object can usually contain numbers, text, other objects, etc. You can refer to complex structures with a single pointer.
 
It's ugly, but isn't it much the same?
 
@Cerberus It's different because it lets you store a whole bunch of variables in ONE variable, where they won't conflict with other variables at that namespace.
 
3:56 PM
@Cerberus I don't understand exactly the semantics of that program.
But it looks like %first% is an object or map of some kind?
 
I refer back to the variables like this:
 
Also, a property of myObject might be an array:

myObject.colors = ["red","blue","green","yellow"];
 
Now, in addition to all the other properties of myObject, we have added an array of colors.
 
@Robusto Mine don't conflict either. Perhaps I'm doing the same thing.
 
3:57 PM
myObject.colors[2] would yield "green"
@Cerberus You're not really doing the same thing. You're just using a naming convention to simulate it.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 It is the key "a", for example; the variables "second", etc. are other characters that are behind "a", that is, I want to type them when I press "a" at certain times.
@Robusto That's what I thought; but then what is the advantage of dots over underscores?
 
@Cerberus: Let's say you wanted to pass all of your variables to a function. You would have to list them all, every single one. With an object, you just pass the object and all the properties go with it.
 
@Cerberus The advantage is structure. An object can only have certain properties in it. A naming convention can have any number of variables that meet, or appear to meet, the convention
 
@Robusto Why? I don't have to. I just use %A_Thishotkey%_char0%Keycount%
 

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