The Nineteenth Byte

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

3:00 AM

What does the *_ do?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

* is splat, _ is just a var name.

Helka Homba

allows variable num of args

Leaky Nun

Is there any challenge that does not count on the code length, or the time elapsed, but the space used?

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

Like a "Memory-golf?"

Leaky Nun

@QPaysTaxes I believe you can

what's the context?

Dennis

3:08 AM

Assignments in lambdas are possible, but not straightforward.

Leaky Nun

^

why don't you just use def for that case? It's even shorter

lambda must follow an expression, not a statement

but you can make a statement into an expression

quartata

Because if you're using lambdas like that you are DoingItWrong™

Leaky Nun

what do you want the lambda to return?

because lambda a,b:xxx is same as def c(a,b):return xxx

quartata

Lambdas are for short things. It's fugly to have long inane statements in lambdas. Use an actual function

Leaky Nun

lambda thing, another_thing, dict: dict == (dict[thing] = another_thing)

Does this work?

Dennis

3:11 AM

The whole point of a lambda is to return something. They're not replacements for named functions.

Leaky Nun

^

12

Q: The game of Sevens! Who said what?

The game of Sevens is played as follows: n players sit in a circle, and start counting up from 1, passing to the left (or from player A to player B). When a number p that has a 7 in it OR is divisible by 7 is reached, then the player who spoke the number p-1, after the next player says p, must s...

orlp

interesting observation: parasitic relationships over time will always converge towards symbiosis

Leaky Nun

I may instantly give you the bounty if you write it in J

@orlp For example?

orlp

@LeakyNun mitochondria

quartata

@Dennis that too although I assumed Q was also returning something and had clipped that off

orlp

3:13 AM

@QPaysTaxes that's not a counterexample

Leaky Nun

@orlp I don't think mitochondria were parasites...

Dennis

@quartata Q?

quartata

@LeakyNun they were separate organisms

Leaky Nun

@quartata Doesn't mean they were parasites

quartata

@Dennis guy who pays taxes

Dennis

3:14 AM

OIC

aditsu

@El'endiaStarman that's much longer, not better at all

Helka Homba

@QPaysTaxes Global? Two dozen lines away? Python functions can be nested.

orlp

anecdotes are irrelevant

you have to see it from an evolutionary perspective

a parasite has a positive interest in the well-being of its host

quartata

@LeakyNun Pretty sure the definition of a parasite is thing that lives inside another thing to get some form of advantage

Leaky Nun

@quartata ... that also harms the host

orlp

3:15 AM

there is a selective pressure against parasites that do not help their host survive

@QPaysTaxes at that point it's not a parasite anymore

quartata

@LeakyNun No. plenty of things in symbiotic relationships would definitely qualify as a parasite

Leaky Nun

@QPaysTaxes Not really. Look up ERV.

Some viruses do become symbiotic with the host.

orlp

@QPaysTaxes when I destroy a chicken to rearrange into molecules for my own body I'm not being a chicken's parasite

@QPaysTaxes a virus doesn't live inside another thing

it consumes it

Leaky Nun

@QPaysTaxes I said "some" viruses.

We wouldn't exist if it wasn't for virus

quartata

viruses that do infect eukaryotes have evolved to give slow lingering deaths to maximize the time to spread

Leaky Nun

3:17 AM

blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2012/02/14/…

quartata

@orlp What about retroviruses

Leaky Nun

> If not for a virus, none of us would ever be born.

In 2000, a team of Boston scientists discovered a peculiar gene in the human genome. It encoded a protein made only by cells in the placenta. They called it syncytin.

[...]

What made syncytin peculiar was that it was not a human gene. It bore all the hallmarks of a gene from a virus.

Helka Homba

@QPaysTaxes Why have a lambda in a dict if it doesn't have a important return value? I'm envisioning x = {1: (lambda y:'randomThingReturned')(7)}

quartata

@HelkaHomba it is a dispatch table

orlp

again, counterexamples are meaningless

if a virus mutates such that it can replicate itself without destroying its host cell, selective pressure will favour that virus

Leaky Nun

3:20 AM

^

orlp

@QPaysTaxes yes, it is always true

the convergence is always true

not the end result

and they can still be around for billions or trillions of years

Leaky Nun

@orlp Then why hasn't all viruses become symbiotic, after so many years of evolution?

quartata

Retro doesn't mean old. It means it mixes its RNA/DNA wiith the host

Leaky Nun

Viruses evolve faster than human because their lifetime is shorter

quartata

OK carry on

orlp

3:22 AM

you guys know the harmonic series?

it diverges to infinity

you guys are constantly stopping after N terms and say: look, it's still not infinity

Leaky Nun

@QPaysTaxes His original statement was

> parasitic relationships over time will always converge towards symbiosis

"over time"

orlp

"converge"

do you know what that means?

Leaky Nun

@QPaysTaxes Counter-examples don't disprove the trend

orlp

always converge

don't take it out of context

Leaky Nun

are not always converging

orlp

3:25 AM

@QPaysTaxes that's just a self-fulfilling definition

by definition that species will not change

because that's the species

if it mutates, it's a new species

Helka Homba

Anyway...

You guys should relax and have some 🍣

quartata

@QPaysTaxes I think his point is that viruses will eventually be forced to adapt when our immune systems evolve and that the only possible outcome will be symbiosis of some sort

orlp

mmm, I love square

@quartata that's not my point

my point is that evolutionary pressure prefers symbiosis over parasitism

and if at some point a species mutates into symbiosis, that species will have the advantage over the parasite version of it

quartata

That is kinda what I am saying just me poorly wording

orlp

ah

Dennis

3:29 AM

codegolf.stackexchange.com/help/badges/42/… \o/

orlp

I don't like the word "adapt" in evolution though

Leaky Nun

38 secs ago

Helka Homba

@Dennis :D

quartata

On mobile so I can't really articulate very well

orlp

holy

quartata

3:30 AM

@orlp "select for" would be better phrasing

orlp

on stackoverflow I have 20 golden badges

@QPaysTaxes evolution isn't an algorithm - it doesn't say what happens, anything could happen through sheer chance

look at the panda

it's useless and refuses to have sex

yet it exists (for now)

Leaky Nun

@orlp Doesn't the "fit" in "survival of the fittest" mean "adapted to the environment"?

orlp

@LeakyNun no, it means "survived while those not fit died"

Leaky Nun

@orlp Only because we kept it. We affected the evolutionary pathway lol

quartata

Not quite though since evolution has to work with existing traits. Humans won't sprout wings because they have no extra limbs to utilize as wings

Helka Homba

3:31 AM

@Dennis Welcome to the club :)

Leaky Nun

@quartata looks at bats who turned their hands into wings

Dennis

@HelkaHomba :)

Leaky Nun

@orlp What does "fit" mean?

quartata

Yeh, hands they already had

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

@HelkaHomba One day I will join this club!

orlp

3:32 AM

@LeakyNun good chance of survival given the circumstances (fitness function)

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

Maybe not soon, but hopefully eventually.

Helka Homba

@Dennis Now go beat Martin in rep!

Leaky Nun

@orlp So who survives is the fittest and who is the fittest survives?

quartata

If we evolved into having wings they would replace our arms most likely

That would be interesting.

orlp

@LeakyNun no, who survives is whoever survived, and who is the fittest has the best chance of surviving

fitness is a prediction

Leaky Nun

3:33 AM

@quartata This is exactly what happened to birds and bats?

Dennis

@HelkaHomba Working on that. :P

Leaky Nun

@orlp And how do you know who have a better chance of surviving?

orlp

@LeakyNun that depends on a lot of factors

quartata

Yeah. It was just an example though. Maybe it would have been better to specify "wings in addition to arms and legs"

orlp

for example, you might have white and black scorpions in a desert

black scorpions might be spotted more easily by predators vs white ones

and overheat more easily

s/beetles/scorpions/

so you'll likely see more white scorpions in a desert

you argue that a white scorpion is more fit

Leaky Nun

3:35 AM

"you might have yellow beetles and black beetles"

"easily by predators vs white ones"

bangs head against wall

orlp

yeah oops

Helka Homba

@LeakyNun minor typo I'd say...

quartata

You get what he means though don't get mad salty over semantics

Leaky Nun

@orlp I call that "adapted to the environment"

orlp

but just because a species is more fit does not guarantee survival

@LeakyNun but there is no adaption

adaption is an active process

Leaky Nun

3:37 AM

adaption through natural selection?

orlp

it also implies a reasoned being that executes the adaption

Leaky Nun

I see

orlp

don't get me wrong

the term is not wrong

it's often used by biologists

but I feel that it causes people to misunderstand evolution

Leaky Nun

I see

orlp

evolution isn't a process or something that's done

Leaky Nun

3:38 AM

evolution is a theory lol

orlp

not even that

Leaky Nun

What do you mean?

orlp

"different species on earth came to existence through evolution" is a theory

Helka Homba

@quartata "mad salty"? ._.

orlp

evolution is

that's what I meant

not the first origins of life

Leaky Nun

3:40 AM

@orlp That's exactly the theory of evolution

evolution has at least 3 meanings

orlp

yes

note the distinction

"theory of evolution" is a name for the theory I mentioned above

that's a proper noun

quartata

oh boy let's not open the religion can of worms please

Leaky Nun

evolution: the mechanism of evolution, the theory of evolution, and the theory of universal common ancestry

orlp

"the theory of evolution"

Leaky Nun

@quartata evolution has nothing to do with religion

Geobits

3:41 AM

@LeakyNun One of which is doing a glowy transformation at level up .

Leaky Nun

ohai @Geobits

quartata

evolution vs creationism does not end well I meant. Sorry it just looked like the conversation was heading there

Leaky Nun

@Geobits which one?

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

@LeakyNun Except that it kinda does.

In the opposite way

Leaky Nun

@quartata I believe there's no creationist in this room

Helka Homba

3:42 AM

@quartata One of them is secretly Marky2.0 I bet

Geobits

@LeakyNun Oh lots of pokes evolve upon reaching a certain level.

orlp

"evolution" is a name for the phenomenon that favourable traits are more likely to survive, and a post-evolution observer will tend to observe mainly species which had those traits

"the theory of evolution" is a name for a theory that attempts to explain the differences in species through a reasoning of favourable traits and survival bias

quartata

Post- a specific effect of evolution that is not evolution as a process

Leaky Nun

^^

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@LeakyNun no, but I am christian.

orlp

3:44 AM

you can argue against the theory of evolution

Leaky Nun

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Doesn't make you a creationist.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

> no

orlp

but you can not argue against evolution

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

So please don't be rude about people you don't agree with.

orlp

it's not a theory, or something to be proven/disproven

Leaky Nun

3:44 AM

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ When was I so?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

I personally belive in both the christian god and evolution and parts of the the threory.

Leaky Nun

parts of the theory

which parts you don't believe?

orlp

it's just a phenomenon - the thing being argued is whether or not it's the explanation for biodiversity on earth

quartata

@LeakyNun that isn't really a polite question since it is loaded

Leaky Nun

how would I phrase it politely?

orlp

3:46 AM

@quartata why?

it's a literal restatement of what easterly said

Helka Homba

@Geobits I choose you! to break up this interminable conversation.

Leaky Nun

let's break it up like this:

Leaderboard (evaluated):
Jelly:       !¡
05AB1E:      F!                (swaps order)
Actually:    `!`n
MATL:        :":p
CJam:        q~{m!}*
Pyth:        u.!GEQ
Pyth:        Mem=.!GH
Jolf:        e+*j"!Y                (swaps order)
Mathematica: #!&~Nest~##&
J:           4 :'(!^:y)x'
J:           4 :0\n(!^:y)x\n)
J:           ".@($&'!'@[,":@])
UGL:         iilRc%l$d:_l*%:%rd:_o
Haskell:     f 0 y=y\nf x y=product[1..f(x-1)y]                (swaps order)
Ruby:        ->a,b{eval'a=(1..a).inject:*;'*b}

Chat mini-challenge: given positive integers x and y, output the result of the application of factorial to x for y times
For example, 3,2 -> (3!)!

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

It's nice to see my answer near the top since I'm a terrible golfer.

=)

Leaky Nun

which one was yours?

orlp

@LeakyNun is this inspired by my discussion of meta-meta-meta operators?

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

3:48 AM

MATL

Leaky Nun

I see

@orlp perhaps

Doorknob

why is Ruby below Haskell when it's shorter :(

Leaky Nun

It isn't

the haskell has a newline

the Ruby postdates the haskell

Doorknob

oh, okay

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

Or we can break it up with another chat mini challenge. Given a character in a-z0-9, output the row of the keyboard it's on.

Leaky Nun

3:51 AM

which row is the first?

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

"1234567890"=1
"qwertyuiop"=2
"asdfghjkl"=3
"zxcvbnm"=4

quartata

Ooh I should add a modified l mode to cinnamon gum for char in string

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

I'm gonna go get ice cream while you guys are figuring out the challenge.

Geobits

@HelkaHomba I tried and failed :/

orlp

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ can I use my keyboard?

then I'll reprogram my keyboard to be abcdefg....

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

3:53 AM

What keyboard is it?

I think that would count as a standard loophole.

quartata

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ ooh what flavor of ice cream?

orlp

Helka Homba

standard loophole flavor

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

orlp

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ nah, you just gotta specify QWERTY keyboard :)

@quartata I <3 green tea flavoured ice cream

it's the best

quartata

3:55 AM

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ ahhhh the joys of having a disposable income

@orlp never tried that

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

Lol, I have more disposable income right now then I ever have in my life, since I live at home and work 30 hours a week at a non-food job.

orlp

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ I believe all of us live at home

unless someone here is homeless?

Helka Homba

home = with parents rather than at school I reckon

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

^

orlp

it's just an interesting part of perspective

Leaky Nun

3:58 AM

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ Jelly, 20 bytes: ⁵R’ŒṘ€W;Øqz⁶FF€i’%4‘

orlp

"home" to you means "my parent's home"

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

That's a common idiom, right?

Or at least, I thought it was.

orlp

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ definitely not

home is just where you live

that's why I mean it's an interesting part of perspective

because living at your parent's home is so ingrained into your life and your peers up until now, that's what it means to you

while those who haven't been living at their parents' home for most of their lives do not share that perspective or meaning with you at all :)

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

I suppose.

I still have heard people say that though.

orlp

sometimes it can have the appropriate meaning

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

4:00 AM

And Helka understood me.

orlp

for example, a college student often does not possess his/her own home

so when a college student says - in a conversation - "I live at home" it means as opposed to living in a dormitory

growing mushrooms

Helka Homba

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ Sure. Maybe "idiom" is not the correct term but many would understand what you mean (especially if it was known you went to college)

Leaky Nun

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ Jelly, 17 bytes: ØDW;Øqz⁶FF€i⁸’%4‘

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

I'm actually not going to college right now.

I took a couple classes last semester, but then I decided I'd rather be able to work more hours this semseter.

And by "Last semester" I mean fall and "this semeseter" means spring, since it's still not in my brain that this semester is over.

orlp

Mozart Lacrimosa, from the Requiem - Yevgeny Sudbin

►

Dennis

4:06 AM

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ Jelly, 7 bytes: Øqf€TḢ‘

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

@Dennis Damn.

How does it?

orlp

@Dennis does jelly have a qwerty builtin?

Jester Tran

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ not yet, haha. O(1) space usage is a huge problem

Dennis

@orlp Yup.

orlp

ah

Øq

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

4:08 AM

@orlp That's beautiful.

Dennis

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ Filter each string in “qwertyuiop“asdfghjkl“zxcvbnm” by the input, get all truthy (1-based) indices, retrieve the first (0 if list is empty), increment.

Leaky Nun

@Dennis That's clever, I spent all my time trying to get the digits inside...

orlp

@LeakyNun I mean...

Helka Homba

meh

orlp

it's basically using a builtin directly aimed at this challenge

cool, sure, but clever? I think dennis has done a lot of clever things, and calling this clever would be an insult to those :P

Leaky Nun

4:11 AM

@HelkaHomba Jelly, 3 bytes: r×/

Completely ignores the fact that they are placed on a standard keyboard

Helka Homba

Right... :S

Dennis

@LeakyNun rP

Leaky Nun

@Dennis oh... right

@HelkaHomba Jelly, 2 bytes: rP

@HelkaHomba Pyth, 4 bytes: *F}E

.

orlp

http://testing

[.](orlp.me)

Leaky Nun

it almost worked

orlp

4:14 AM

:(

apparently .com works, but .me doesn't

Leaky Nun

[ ](testing.com)

U+00A0 automatically converted to U+0020...

Helka Homba

Better mc: Given two digits 1-9 print their min distance in vertical/horizontal jumps on a standard numpad. e.g. 7 5 -> 2, 8 9 -> 1, 1 9 -> 4, 3 3 -> 0

Leaky Nun

You mean taxicab distance

Helka Homba

yes

Leaky Nun

is 0 undefined?

Helka Homba

4:17 AM

only need to support 1 through 9

Leaky Nun

nice

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

Isn't 0 below 1 and 2?

Helka Homba

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ You can allow 0 if you really want :P

like ^

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

That would actually be a decent challenge on main.

Helka Homba

Feel free to post it

Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

4:19 AM

Lol, this feels like a repeat of what conor did.

Helka Homba

>.>

Leaky Nun

wait, it's invalid

@HelkaHomba Pyth, 12 bytes: Lj+8b3saVyEy

orlp

Pyth, 11 bytes saMCm.Dtd3Q

Leaky Nun

ah, the mighty divmod

Pyth, 11 bytes: L.Db3saVyEy

Pyth, 10 bytes: saMCm.Dtd3

@orlp The final Q

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Dr Green Eggs and Ham DJ

4:30 AM

0

Q: Calculate the Numpad Taxicab

Credit goes where credit is due Given two integers, x, and y, calculate the shortes number of horizontal or vertical jumps to get from x to y on a standard numpad, e.g. 789 456 123 00 You can safely assume that all inputs will be 0-9, and you do not have to handle invalid inputs. The input ...