Home Improvement

BMitch

2:18 PM

Hmm, looks like OnStartups is having issues running a SE site, anyone else getting a "Portal not found" error?

answers.onstartups.com

Tester101

2:46 PM

@BMitch works for me.

BMitch

Hmm, it was up this morning, and then back down again. Supposedly it's DNS related.

ah ha, I can blame it on my client's DNS server, dropped back off the VPN and it works fine

thanks @Tester101

Tester101

3:02 PM

I flagged a few answers, and the flags were marked as helpful, but it doesn't seem that anything was done about the problem. What can I do to clean up these answers?

BMitch

@Tester101, got any links?

I can't see the flags if you use the "other" flag

Hmm, just saw the flag on this one

0

A: What is the best order for interior painting (walls, trim, windows, etc.)?

...Since all three answers are "correct" I can't just pick one, but upvotes for all three.

I think I'm supposed to flag it again, which would help confirm the original flag. Hopefully I did it right.

Tester101

3:17 PM

0

A: What are some good downspout options for a brick house?

You could try here for parts.

BMitch

It's probably worth pinging @ChrisF to see if there's a reason for "helpful" but "no action taken". E.g. when I suggested a meta post be a community wiki, he flagged it as helpful but let me know that there's no reason to make meta posts a wiki since rep points don't count over there.

Tester101

0

A: When installing hardwood floors, should I use rosin paper, roofing felt, or nothing underneath? Why?

My contractor used felt. I believe for squeaks.

BMitch

@Tester101 that one isn't a good answer, but not so bad that I'd delete it

Tester101

@BMitch Might be better as a comment, though.

-2

A: Does a homeowner need a permit for electrical work in Massachusetts?

Licensed electricians charge what they do because we are required to have insurance, and thousands of hours of truing by law as in any other profession,training and schooling dictate the skill of the practitioner.you get what you pay for. If you think you can do it and sleep at night with your k...

BMitch

@Tester101 I get the feeling the link changed on Mike. I'd leave a comment for Mike to fix it or delete his own answer

@Tester101 that I'd agree with

@Tester101 but then you'd delete my insightful comment on this one! :)

Tester101

3:24 PM

@BMitch True. but that answer is not an answer, he's just trying to justify his pay.

BMitch

very true, I think I'll flag it myself

Tester101

It bothers me when I see answers that are too "forumy", where people just want to have their opinions heard, and don't care at all for actually helping the asker.

BMitch

welcome @JNK

@Tester101 ok, you convinced me, I flagged all of them.

Tester101

@BMitch also take a look at this one.

2

A: What should I keep in mind when building my house myself?

There's an excellent project starting up on kickstarter called the Global Village Construction Set which I read here. They are basically trying to open source hardware so that you can mix and match pieces to build construction machines. The wiki explains a lot of what they have already develope...

BMitch

Looks out the window Ooh goodie, looks like I'll add a few more streets to Waze in the next few days. The curbs were already poured and now the dump trucks are lined up and grading equipment is running around. Construction sites are way to distracting for me.

JNK

3:37 PM

Thanks @BMitch

Just checking in, I am a frequent reader of the site

Bought a house 2 months back and have a lot to do/learn

BMitch

volunteer at Habitat, it worked for me :)

JNK

I'll consider it, not sure if I have time

babies!

I have 1.67 kids

BMitch

that .67 of a kid will take up a lot of time

we've lost of a few volunteers to the pull of babies

JNK

He will. The wife has him two thirds done.

I can believe it, they are the ultimate time drain

BMitch

I've gotta run, enjoy the site @JNK, /afk

Tester101

3:48 PM

@JNK don't forget to pop in for Project Update Thursday later today.

ChrisF

@BMitch Which flag is this about?

I haven't been checking the site much today - actually busy at work ;)

If it's this answer:

0

A: When installing hardwood floors, should I use rosin paper, roofing felt, or nothing underneath? Why?

My contractor used felt. I believe for squeaks.

Then it is an answer - just. If you really want I'll convert it into a comment, but it does answer the question.

Tester101

@ChrisF I flagged it as well. It does technically answer the question, but it feels more like a comment to me.

ChrisF

Well that's two flags - I'll convert it then

Done. Just that spammy answer about painting bare bricks....

Tester101

@ChrisF I also flagged 3 other questions, and they were marked "helpful" but no action seemed to be taken. Is there a reason a flag would be marked helpful, but nothing further done?

ChrisF

@Tester101 Yes (and I can only speak for myself here) it's where I can see why the post was flagged but I don't think that it needs actioning immediately. It's something I know at the time but can't always explain afterwards. Have you got an example?

Tester101

4:13 PM

@ChrisF I posted some examples earlier in the chat.

ChrisF

Looks like I've dealt with some of those now ;)

Tester101

OK. Thanks.

ChrisF

There's a fine line between just down-voting or voting to close and flagging. It's preferable to do the former - mods should be just for stuff the community can't handle itself, but with so few 10K and 3K users we have to step in more often.

The new /review page is worth a look. Here you can see the posts that the system thinks are low quality and what others are voting to close on. Weighing in on this is a good way to get rid of bad content.

Tester101

@ChrisF That's what I've been looking at lately. That's why I've had so many flags the past few days.

Wish there was a way to vote to close answers. Most of the bad content I see is in answers, not questions.

ChrisF

@Tester101 Ah, cool.

@Tester101 Comment, edit, down-vote, flag (in that order).

Comment if it's something the OP has to fix, edit it yourself if you can improve it, down-vote if it's wrong, flag if it just shouldn't exist.

Tester101

4:20 PM

@ChrisF That's usually how I handle it. But some answers are just bad, and to "forumy". Those are the ones I flag.

ChrisF

@Tester101 OK - that's good to know. Will help in me deciding what to do with the flag. On other sites (Programmers and the ones I see on Stack Overflow) some people use flags instead of down-votes or close votes. That's (unfortunately) coloured by judgement.

Tester101

@ChrisF I'll start using the "Other" option, so I can explain why I flagged a post. That should make it easier to decide if it's valid.

ChrisF

@Tester101 That'd be useful.

Tester101

Too bad all flag options don't force you to write a brief description of why you flagged it.

Steve Jackson

4:53 PM

3

A: What's the procedure for stripping wires with pliers?

Striping wire with pliers is a technique that takes a lot of practice, and is one of those things best left to the pros. For the average homeowner, it's going to be easier (and safer) to stick with using the proper tools. In this case, you'll want to pick yourself up some Wire Strippers. No ne...

This was a good answer - I started to write one and I couldn't get past "Do it about a few thousand times and you might get the hang of it." For a non-electrician it's practically a vanity thing, like being able to field strip a rifle Forrest Gump style.

Tester101

@SteveJackson I used to strip wire with lineman's pliers all the time, then I thought "What the hell am I doing... I have friggin wire strippers!". Mostly now I use wire strippers when wiring things with screw terminal, because it's faster to strip and hook the wire with them. And I use pliers when creating junctions, because I don't have to switch tools to strip and twist the wires together.

It also depends on what you're working on. In home wiring you're mostly dealing with smaller gauge wire, so wire strippers are useful. When you move towards industry, you'll start encountering thicker wire where wire strippers are basically useless.

Steve Jackson

5:10 PM

@Tester101 As my tools have a way of never being at hand when I need them, I've probably done more house wire stripping with a pocket knife than wire strippers. Good point about the hook though. I first used wire strippers while building circuit boards, so they don't always enter my mind outside that context.

BMitch

@ChrisF All those flags were under @Tester101 's influence, but that specific one was more appropriate as a comment

ChrisF

@BMitch That's OK. I think we're all sorted now

BMitch

Thanks. There was at least one that I felt could use a comment rather than a flag. I try not to pile on to your workload too much :)

Steve Jackson

@ChrisF care to give some moderation advice on this blog comment? This was on Greebo's post about replacement windows. "It is always a challenge to renovate Sash Windows. That is why it is a good idea to ask for expert advice. Because Sash Windows are such a classic device they are very delicate and it is easy to damage them. Often restoration is a lot cheaper than replacement so if you can afford to do this rather than replace them then this is what I would advise"

ChrisF

I think the site must be doing better in the search engine rankings - we're getting more spam answers ;)

Steve Jackson

5:15 PM

@ChrisF mixed blessings woot!

ChrisF

@SteveJackson Apart from the statement about them being "very delicate" being bollocks?

Steve Jackson

@ChrisF I was a little torn. It's sorta on-topic and potentially good advice to talk to someone before taking on the project. Their name linked to their website (since this is encouraged by WP). I'm just trying to feel it out for when we get more of the same. It seems to me that a blog post commented by someone in the business is potentially a good thing, though this one was phrased awkwardly at best.

ChrisF

@SteveJackson Yeah - it does come over as a sales pitch.

I wouldn't be sorry to see it deleted :)

Steve Jackson

@ChrisF So a constructive comment by someone in the biz would not reference their products at all?

ChrisF

@SteveJackson It's a fine line and one might be OK while another might not. It depends on the wording and whether they've peppered their post/comment with links or not.

Aarthi Devanathan

5:23 PM

I think if the comment provided real advice (as opposed to blatant lies) in addition to a sales pitch would be ok.

Steve Jackson

Fair enough. It's in pending for deletion, I was trying to get some feedback before I nuked it. Thanks.

@AarthiDevanathan Good point.

Aarthi Devanathan

I am smart sometimes, I swear.

ChrisF

Having said I wouldn't be sorry to see it deleted, I'm happy for it to stay if that's the consensus - basically I'm not going to argue one way or the other.

Steve Jackson

@ChrisF I think we're mostly in favor of deleting it, as far as I know I'm the only one that had any reservations whatsoever :)

And mostly my concern was about what it represented rather than the comment itself

ChrisF

You could edit the "Because Sash Windows are such a classic device they are very delicate and it is easy to damage them." out :)

The rest of the comment is sound advice.

Aarthi Devanathan

5:41 PM

Meanwhile, I'm not going to be able to open/close PUT today.

Would anyone (@BMitch @Tester101 @ChrisF) mind playing host?

Tester101

6:06 PM

@AarthiDevanathan I would do it, but I don't know how.

BMitch

6:38 PM

@Tester101, I think it's time we showed you how

step 1, make a bold post announcing the start of the meeting (bold just uses two *'s before and after)

step 2, make another bold post at the end

step 3, go to the room drop down above our icons, and select "create new bookmark"

pick the last post since it's right there, and then scroll up to the first post and pick that one

Aarthi Devanathan

@BMitch @Tester101 looks like y'all have it covered. :)

BMitch

it will ask for a name, and we just say "Project Update Thursday - 10 Nov 2011" with the date stamp changing

@AarthiDevanathan we've got your back, go back to parenting those babies ;oP

Tester101

@BMitch That's it? Seems easy enough.

BMitch

if you click on info above our names and go to conversations, you can see all the old bookmarks

Aarthi Devanathan

@BMitch laughs I can't tell you how glad I am of that -- the "having my back" not the babies bit ;)

BMitch

6:42 PM

that's really all there is to it

we also post a link to the new bookmark in the chat so others know that it's done, and it gets one-boxed

I'll be around, but slightly AWOL during the chat, lot to catch up on for work

my client is in the retail space, and they have a habit of saving all their changes until just before black Friday

Aarthi Devanathan

I'll be aroundish, but I have about 4 other things on the list today. =/ So, @lert me if you really need me, but otherwise I'll be afk.

@BMitch Ugh, that's the worst.

BMitch

@AarthiDevanathan I may have you drive over to Secaucus and knock some sense into them

on the plus side, they have baby clothes for all those parents

Aarthi Devanathan

@BMitch I could take the train. :D

laughs You know we have onesies now? shop.stackexchange.com/products/onesie

BMitch

haha, cute!

Aarthi Devanathan

:D

BMitch

6:50 PM

ok, gotta run, I took the morning off to finish painting my basement wall

afk

Aarthi Devanathan

/waves

Hey @gregmac

Sadly, I'm in-and-out today. /waves

Tester101

7:42 PM

@AarthiDevanathan I think PUT started early again.

BMitch

I think the server always puts the notice up about 15+ minutes before the meeting starts, confusing, but maybe it catches some people that would have otherwise run off

if you check the schedule, Chris has it setup right

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/111/…

chris

Hello All.

Looks like META today.

Steve Jackson

Quick! I'll repost something funny from @Bmitch!

yesterday, by BMitch

BMitch

:D

Tester101

@SteveJackson HAHA. Still funny.

chris

7:48 PM

Is this question off topic? http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/10170/how-much-of-a-discount-should-i-shoot-for-on-sub-zero-and-wolf-appliances

It doesn't sit right with me, but I can't put my finger on it.

Hemm

No idea.

Steve Jackson

Off-topic, I would read it along the lines of the first bullet point here

diy.stackexchange.com/…

Tester101

@chris Yes. I voted to close. It's too localized (deals with prices that always change), and has more to do with shopping than home improvement.

Hemm

If it was more general asking about how to negotiate, and not asking for a survey of %'s, maybe it would be relevant.

chris

I don't have vote to close yet. I've been flagging the really bad ones.

Only 800 more rep to go on that one. Better start answering.

Steve Jackson

7:52 PM

@Hemm It's not really DIY specific though. Negotiating prices seems the same whether it's appliances or a car.

chris

He was asking about guidelines for negotiating based on list. The question had some merit.

Tester101

That question might fit on Negotiations.StackExchange, not so much here.

chris

Did anyone get their swag yet? Mines at the post office waiting for a pickup. (I assume it's my swag, and not a sub peona)

BMitch

@chris haven't seen anything yet, but I'm happy with the pencils @AarthiDevanathan sent me for now.

Tester101

Welcome to Project Update Thursday!

BMitch

7:59 PM

Woo hoo! Now under new management.

Tester101

@BMitch I couldn't wait anymore! like a kid the night before Christmas!

BMitch

so who's up first, speak up now or you'll have to put up with my description of painting a wall

Steve Jackson

@BMitch oooh! goes to get popcorn

BMitch

so the drywall is up, I've finished the mudding and taping, and now I'm giving it some paint

gotta pickup some new trim this weekend, and I'll paint that separately before putting it on the wall

I also need to rent a carpet cleaner since the leaking water wasn't exactly clean

tip I picked up from Mike Holmes, when cutting in, paint into where you've already painted, rather than away from it

apparently it coats better

chris

Whatever you do, don't buy a Carpet Cleaner. If you own one, the Domestic Sergeant Major will have you cleaning carpets monthly.

BMitch

8:05 PM

and my own tip for cleanup, just let the roller float in some water, all the paint will sink to the bottom

repeat a few times and the roller will be clean without you spending 30 minutes scrubbing away

Steve Jackson

@chris Truth. My wife asked for one last Christmas. She got one and has never learned to put it together, clean it out, or fill it with soap. It is overly complicated, but definitely not what I had in mind.

chris

Put the roller in a plastic bag and drop it in the freezer. As long as you're doing a second coat with the same colour, it saves cleaning.

Steve Jackson

@BMitch Like in a bucket? That's way better than my spray hose and fling paint all over the yard method :)

chris

We used to rent one once a year before Christmas. When my dad bought one, I was required to "borrow" it every time there was a spill.

BMitch

@SteveJackson or in my plastic pan

chris

8:07 PM

Now I'm 100% hardwood.

BMitch

paint roller tray

@chris my dad bought one, but he's a 3 hour drive away, I'd spend more in gas than the rental fee

by floating the roller in the paint tray, you clean your tray and roller with minimal effort, just revisit it every hour or so to pull out the roller without stirring up the paint, rinse the tray well, and fill it back up with clean water

alright, now we get to watch the paint dry until the next person volunteers to go

Steve Jackson

@chris how goes the basement refinishing?

BMitch

commence staring

chris

I buy the plastic inserts, and rollers a 3/$10.00 I only reuse them for second coats.

BMitch

the plastic inserts are great, but I always have an issue with fuzzy rollers when they're new

chris

8:13 PM

Basement: Biocided the crawl space, Wire brushing and vacuuming the dead mold this weekend. (Justification of Shop vac purchase!!!!).

Still "Negotiating" design with the boss.

Steve Jackson

mmmm....soggy carpets and moldy crawl spaces. This is a lovely PUT.

chris

I, apparently, have a misguide opinion as to what it should be.

BMitch

there's no need to justify a shop vac purchase. It's a shop vac! If you have a home, you need it.

chris

That's my thinking, but apparently I'm wrong.

Tester101

@BMitch if you have a shop, you need one. If you have a home, you want one.

it's in the name

chris

8:16 PM

The Hoover does well enough for most cleanups.

Tester101

Nobody does it like hoover.

chris

I want to move the shop into the garage, so I won't be able to take the inside vacuum out there.

Tester101

it's in the jingle.

Steve Jackson

@chris well you are married....

chris

No, just schizophrenic.

Tester101

8:18 PM

I find it odd that I can't use the house broom in the garage, but my chisels can be used as screwdrivers!

3

chris

Meanwhile, her wallpaper stripping project in the upper bathroom has been going on for 2 months now.

BMitch

@Tester101 cringe

chris

I said "Don't Do it! It's not necessary! I don't want to get involved with that right now."

Actually, the one that gets me is the insistance that a Green Robertson is "close enough" for a red screw.

Steve Jackson

@chris You'll have to explain that to me. I know what a robertson is, but I'm not sophisticated enough to know the difference between green and red. Different sizes?

chris

Robertson screws are square headed sockets. They work great, but the round out if you use the wrong size. A green is slightly smaller than a red.

List of screw drives

A screw drive is the system used to turn a screw. At a minimum, it is a feature on the screw that allows for it to be turned. Usually it also involves a mating tool, such as a screwdriver, that is used to turn it. The following heads are categorized based on commonality, with the less common drives being classified as "tamper-resistant". Most heads come in a range of sizes. Common types External types All of these screw drives are characterized by a female tool and a male fastener. A square screw drive uses square shaped fastener heads. They can be turned with a crescent-type wrench...

Green is 7/64, Red is 1/8 (8/64).

Steve Jackson

8:26 PM

Got it. I've used them on decks, but it was a one size screw, one size driver sort of thing. Colors seems much smarter than #2, #1 when asking for a screwdriver.

chris

Ok. New Topic: Red Green, Tim Allen, or Larry the Cable Guy -- Which one would you hire to work on your home?

Steve Jackson

Tough choice. I guess Tim Allen. His stuff seemed to mostly work until you pressed the more power button. I loved his dishwasher that shattered plates though - sometimes it seems like that's what it's going to take to get the crud off.

chris

Yeah, I suppose he's ok as long as you keep him away from small engines.

A solution to a common problem:

thereifixedit.failblog.org/2011/11/15/…

Steve Jackson

chris

8:44 PM

Is that paint dry yet?

Tester101

We should make PUT 30 minutes long.

chris

I could update you on my coding projects.

Tester101

Has anybody seen @KarlKatzke lately? Haven't heard from him in a long time.

BMitch

@chris that reminds me, I need to change the water for my roller

Tester101

And where is @TheEvilGreebo today?

The Evil Greebo

8:54 PM

I'm lurking

or idling, not really reading, crazy busy today

BMitch

I seem to remember Karl having a busy work schedule

Tester101

I remember that, but it seems like it's been a long time.

Steve Jackson

I think he was supposed to wrap up Nov4, but I know how that goes....

BMitch

well, work would wrap up on Nov 4, at which point, you get home and the wife is pointing to the carpet cleaner and telling you to get to work :)

chris

f'ing snow outside!!!!

BMitch

8:59 PM

that's the best kind of snow

chris

Not yet. It's not december yet, and I don't have my lights up.

I hate going on the roof in the snow.

New Project: Put up Christmas lights.

Tester101

Just leave the lights up all year.

you look silly in the summer, but smart in the winter.

BMitch

they did that in the trees at my elementary school, you really didn't notice the lights any other time of year (these were big trees, or at least they seemed big to me)

BMitch

9:28 PM

ok, the paint fumes might be getting to me, so I'll ask the peanut gallery: would a blog post on things like "framing 101" or "how to put up drywall" be useful or redundant with all the other info on the web?

Tester101

I say useful.

How to's would be good I think.

Besides, we don't have that many contributors and we need content.

BMitch

@Tester101 so any content is good content at this point, I can see that. Just don't expect it to compare to @TheEvilGreebo 's posts

Tester101

I was going to write a post "How to connect a transfer switch".

3

Q: How do I troubleshoot my generator and transfer switch installation?

I recently mounted a 10 circuit Transfer switch and attached about half of the wires to the electrical panel. After I start and plug in the generator, some of the circuits work fine (well pump, which is wired to 2x 20 amp terminals), some don't (refrigerator, wired to 15 amp terminal) and some pa...

after working on this question.

Steve Jackson

It also would be a good idea to have a reference guide for answers. Like with the stud questions oscillatingcretin is having lately, you can answers specifics and throw a link to the blog for a "see more" kind of thing. If we have someone willing to put those kind of guides together, I think that's ok. It may not appeal to the hard-core diy.stackexchange people, but it would still get us attention from the people who are just looking at blogoverflow for interesting content.

Tester101

But decided, it might not be a good idea to tell people how to do electrical work (since they are not supposed to be doing it).

Steve Jackson

9:37 PM

And also looking at stats, that glass block post of greebo's is pulling alot of weight with google. So just in general, having more referenced guides will pull the blog up the search ranks.

BMitch

that was part of my thought process, how to frame a wall would get some search hits

Steve Jackson

And most importantly - please yes, more content. When we have 10 articles a week we can start to get picky about what post would be most awesome.

Tester101

and judging from PUT, if we only rely on projects we actually work on... we won't have many posts left.

I figure we'll run out of content about mid December.

BMitch

that was always my concern about the blog, you can't expect regular updates to long irregular projects

Steve Jackson

We can also be pickier about community editing the "how-to" posts if we want to run it by a few people to make sure it's pretty accurate.

Tester101

9:41 PM

What type of liability issues (if any) are there with this type of content?

BMitch

I was actually going to specify that my instructions were for non-load bearing for that very reason

Tester101

If I show people how to hook up a transfer switch, and somebody blows themselves up, can I be held liable?

BMitch

when you get into building a load bearing header, you have to know what kind of lumber is required

Steve Jackson

I doubt there is real liability, it's more of a credibility issue. I find it hard to believe any judge would say: "Oh sure you got this free advice anonymously from the internet with no express contract - they're definitely liable for your damages"

Tester101

I've heard about stranger cases.

BMitch

9:45 PM

I think there was a meta question about liability/safety, trying to see if I can find it

5

Q: Dangerous answers

This is the big problem with a DIY site - one day someone's going to post something so incredibly wrong it's going to get someone killed. Hopefully the community will jump on it as soon as they see it and recognise it's wrong - but what if they don't? A minor example is this answer regarding asb...

discussion

Steve Jackson

There's a legal footer at the bottom of the main site, we might make the suggestion they add it to the blog as well.

Tester101

Besides, it's not like most electrical work where you shut off the breaker first. You have to work in a live panel (most of the time), to hook up a transfer.

BMitch

for safety sake, I frequently put a disclosure where people should seek professional help, and where they should hire a contractor, so it wouldn't hurt to have on a blog entry like that

Steve Jackson

Someone had a good comment on that meta question "and the community has no way of assessing the talents and capabilities of everyone who finds an answer" - e.g. a hammer could be very dangerous in the hands of the wrong individual.

BMitch

I still worry about @aarthidevanathan with her power drill

Tester101

9:50 PM

I was going to list in the step-by-step "get apprenticeship", "put in X hours under master electrician", "become journeyman", ...

Steve Jackson

@Tester101 I think the transfer hookup is a gut call thing on your part. I might worry sufficiently that it would keep me up at night. I believe in some countries, the culture deems any electrical work too dangerous for a civilian to handle.

Tester101

@SteveJackson I decided not to write it.

BMitch

One nice thing about a blog like that is that a home owner could use it to assess if the professional did it correctly

Tester101

True.

BMitch

So often, home owners trust the professional because they have no information available to say otherwise

Tester101

9:53 PM

Son of a! an NEC code question! but I'm at rep cap :(

0

Q: NEC Code Changes

I am thinking of remodeling my home. I have a bunch of 14 gauge THHN wire. A friend told me I can't use 14 gauge wire in a residential recepticle application. Has there a code change that would not allow 14 gauge wire to be used in residential recepticles.

electrical

Steve Jackson

@Tester101 I think it rolls over in a few hours :)

Tester101

It's a softball question, it'll be answered by then :(

BMitch

answer anyway, you'll get a load of rep when people read it later

it's when they vote, not when you answer :)

Tester101

Can I wrap PUT, now?

Steve Jackson

@BMitch This is a good point. I definitely think if anyone feels comfortable writing a "dangerous" post I would be for publishing it provided we're satisified that our butts are significantly covered :)

Tester101

9:57 PM

THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR PROJECT UPDATE THURSDAY!

BMitch

@Tester101 I don't think 5 minutes is enough time for someone else to pop in with an update, so go ahead

Tester101