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5:03 PM
Well, if you want to get it it's aptly called the Geek Clock...
Here's another one:
 
It still has B_L^'
 
...with all the possibilities, I think a clock with detachable faces would be the best thing.
 
I got why the quadratic was used for "8", but it looks a bit awkward there...
 
Hm.
You guys heard on that guy who wrote a proof that inaccessible cardinals are inconsistent with ZF?
 
5:11 PM
Is that a fresh development?
 
Not sure who you mean. I remember the name Belyakin in connection with something similar, but I do not remember exactly what he tried to prove (and how it was accepted).
 
8 o'clock could be -7 o'clock
 
To sum his post, "Oh, inaccessible cardinals are most likely true. I'm actually showing that ZF (and other contemporary set theories) is not adequate for mathematics..."
 
beware when using quadratics to specify a number.
 
5:13 PM
@robjohn and the other solution doesn't work, even when taken modulo 12...
 
@AsafKaragila now ZF has to get serious psychiatric help for its inadequacy issues.
 
@robjohn Set theory was fathered by Georg Cantor, which was a wee bit crazy himself. So it has bad genes to begin with. ZF was a topic of research for Kurt Goedel as well, which was a raving lunatic... so this cannot be a coincidence :-P
 
@JM not to mention 4.00159265358979... o'clock
 
@AsafKaragila But he does that since 1975 or so...
 
@tb Kiselev? I was sure he's a young fella.
 
5:16 PM
@AsafKaragila You imply that some level of nuttiness is required for serious set theory? :)
 
@JM Me? What? Nooo... I would never! ;-)
 
@JM it's a fact with support :-p
 
@robjohn Is this support compact?
 
@AsafKaragila It is even a point.
 
@robjohn Everything is a point.
 
5:18 PM
@AsafKaragila We're talking about this guy, right?
 
@AsafKaragila 0 is a good point.
 
@AsafKaragila Oh, a continuum can be a point? :D
 
@JM Sure. {R} :-)
@tb Indeed so, my good man.
 
Main theorem (ZF): There are no weakly inaccessible cardinals. The proof of this theorem was derived as a result of using the subinaccessible cardinal
apparatus which the author has worked out since 1976, the preliminarily investigations were developed since 1973
 
Ah. I see. Well, I was sure he was just wasting his recent years but apparently he wasted his entire life.
 
5:21 PM
old cardinals never die, they just become inaccessible...
or become the Pope.
 
The pope is pretty inaccesible, isn't he?
I mean, you cannot just go to Rome an knock on his office door.
 
Were there ever a really obese cardinal? I mean, that would prove the consistency of large cardinals...
 
But is he still/necessarily a cardinal?
 
I think that you can't just gain access to a cardinal just like that.
 
Well, an audience is not that hard to get... :)
 
5:22 PM
I'd think that they are weakly-inaccessible, though.
 
"weakly", yes. Some paper is required...
 
@AsafKaragila On the other hand: Great! we found a contradiction in mathematics, now we can all go home...
 
older cardinals are often weak anyway.
@tb I'm glad I still have my day job.
 
yeah, maths is just for procrastination anyway...
 
Is the absence of inaccessible cardinals necessarily a contradiction?
 
5:25 PM
@tb No, not before we can collect some money from Knuth... :D
 
@HenningMakholm Nope.
@JM But he could derive that he paid you as much as you'd like from the said contradiction...
 
@HenningMakholm It would just make a lot of logic and set theory obsolete
 
@Asaf: Yes, that was the rebuttal to that XKCD comic... :D
 
@AsafKaragila Didn't think so. Their presence had better be unprovable after all.
 
@tb like, who studies them anyway?
 
5:28 PM
@HenningMakholm Well, much like the existence of an infinite set cannot be asserted without its own axiom, there is no reason to assume that the existence of anything stronger can be just... provable.
 
On the contrary, there is reason to assume it is not provable. If it were, then per Gödel ZFC would be inconsistent.
 
Exactly.
But there is still a gap from not provable to inconsistent. Currently, modulo Kiselev's work, this gap may exist or that the contradiction is still waiting to be found.
 
Yes, yes.
 
How is this not closed as a duplicate yet?
 
5:32 PM
Do you have a good target?
 
@robjohn Beautiful. Now, are those Archimedean or equiangular?
 
Definitely not Archimedean.
 
They look fractal enough to be equiangular.
The best effect would be if the hour hand stood still and the face rotated once every 12 hours.
 
@AsafKaragila Yes, it was asked a few days ago, but we have had a question avalanche since then...
 
@JM I am counting on you/tb to find it. You are both excellent excavators. :-)
 
5:36 PM
Should it be tagged "analysis", anyway? Come to that, what should be tagged "analysis" in general?
 
Well, we already have and and a bunch of other finer divisions...
...so, no idea. :)
 
My instinct was to retag it as "calculus", but now I'm in doubt. "Calculus" is an abbreviation for "the part of real analysis that is usually taught in high school", right?
 
whatever "high school" means...
 
bbl, call of duty: shopping & cooking.
 
5:43 PM
Okay, "high school" is not completely well defined. Point is "calculus" seems to be a subset of "real analysis". I can imagine something being "real analysis" because it is too advanced for "calculus" (e.g., power series). Can it also be "real analysis" rather than "calculus" simply because it involves neither a derivative nor an integral?
 
@HenningMakholm To muddy the waters even more... at my university we teach two semesters of "advanced calculus," which, according to my colleagues, is more advanced (duh) than calculus but not as advanced as real analysis.
Advanced calculus course description: "This course is an introduction to advanced analysis. Topics of study include set theory, the topology of Euclidean spaces, functions, continuity, differentiability of functions and mappings, integration, series, uniform convergence, transformation of multiple integrals, differential geometry of curves and surfaces, and vector calculus."
I haven't taught this course yet so I haven't quite figured out how this differs from real analysis.
 
Sounds like an "overview-of-everything which should be adequate as a general knowledge basis for subjects where you elect not to take the dedicated course" course.
 
"topology of Euclidean spaces" - okaaay... I shudder to think of what would be treated in analysis proper...
 
We don't actually teach a course called "real analysis." Whatever real analysis our students get comes from this course. (We only teach undergraduates here.)
@JM It's only very basic topology.
 
Oh, okay. :)
 
5:51 PM
@MikeSpivey I was quite shocked when Pete told me that this seems to be quite common in the US (absence of real analysis for undergrads).
 
@tb It depends on the institution. And, as I said, I haven't quite figured out how "advanced calculus" differs from real analysis, other than it's supposed to be less advanced.
 
yesterday, by Rob
I AM NOT A TROLL!!!
Hah.
 
@MikeSpivey I don't really know what (advanced) calculus is but I'd say measure theory/functional analysis is probably not part of it.
(at least that's how I understand the word calculus)
 
@MikeSpivey maybe they artificially understate advancedness of the first calculus course?
 
It's my impression that U.S. undergrad math programs (except, I guess, at the best schools, although maybe not even there) aren't as advanced as a lot of the undergrad math programs in, say, Europe. I can't back that up much, other than that it's also my impression that U.S. colleges spend time teaching topics that are often taught in high school in Europe.
Thus, for instance, math majors here often have to take a lot of writing and humanities courses in college, whereas (again, my impression) students in Europe spend more of undergrad focusing on their major subject.
@tb Yes, no measure theory or functional analysis in "advanced calculus" is one of the major distinctions.
@Gortaur That's also true. We don't do much theory in the first calculus sequence, so it gets shoved into advanced calculus.
 
5:58 PM
@MikeSpivey oy vey
 
@Gortaur A large part of the problem is that the high schools in the U.S. aren't all that great. Few of the students we get are ready for theory in the first calculus sequence.
 
@MikeSpivey So much for NCLB...
 
@JM Yeah. There are so many explanations for the poor state of U.S. public education and so many proposals for fixing it. Don't get me started. :)
 
@JM don't get anybody started today please ))) oh no... Alex has come. Smth will start right now )))
 
@MikeSpivey In my time the usual rule-of-thumb was that the last year of Danish high school corresponded to the freshman year of an American college. So the level at the end of our 3-year bachelor degrees would be roughly equivalent to a 4-year American degree.
 
6:04 PM
@Mike: I'm good; I've a bunch of books and pamphlets... :)
 
@MikeSpivey I don't know about all of Europe but judging from what I know about central Europe studying at universities is pretty much confined to the specialtie(s): except at "technical universities" where you focus on one subject right away you usually have a main subject and one or two second subjects (like math/physics or history/germanistics+pohilosophy chemistry/biology) for example. General culture and writing are trained marginally at best unless you focus on them.
 
@Mike: my colleague is from Poland and he told me that there they have in the first semester general topology to get rid of those who isn't abstract enough. I would prefer starting with metric spaces though - quite general and still easy to motivate young students.
@Alex: do they really introduced obligatory theology in secondary schools by the way?
 
yes they did
 
Thanks to the Europeans for chiming in on their experiences. Virtually all universities in the U.S. have breadth requirements (literature, history, fine arts, basic math and science) that account for most of the first year. I suppose that lines up with Henning's description of how Danes viewed their system vis a vis the U.S.
 
i'm planning to leave the country in the next couple of years <_<
 
6:09 PM
your eyes look in the right Western direction )
(though its left)
 
@AlexeiAverchenko Did you already pay a visit to christianity.SE?
 
@tb he's still not burned ;)
 
@Gortaur good point :)
 
@Gortaur In defense of christianity.SE.... I have visited there a couple of times and was surprised at how civil the discussions were, given the emotional nature of the subject matter.
 
I wonder how they can have any questions that are not immediately closed as "will likely solicit opinion, debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion"?
 
6:12 PM
@HenningMakholm measure theory I would include in real analysis, but not calculus
 
@tb indeed i had :)
 
@MikeSpivey please do understand me correct, it just happened some times to some scientists. But I'm happy about what you've said
 
they removed all my previous questions and comments by that time, it was weird
 
@robjohn Agree there.
 
@AlexeiAverchenko rewriting smth is usual for them, don't bother
 
6:14 PM
@10k+ users: I see an undelete vote here. I don't like when people delete their questions after getting hints/answers, so I'm tempted to add mine. What do you think?
 
@Gortaur Yes. Not Christianity's finest hour. :(
 
@tb i delete my questions if there were no answers for a long time
game theory makes me do it!!!
 
@AlexeiAverchenko ?
 
@AlexeiAverchenko Sure, nothing wrong with that (unless you got good comments)
(this one has an answer)
 
@tb I'd go with you on that one.
 
6:15 PM
@tb I think that's not polite to mention that there is somebody not 10k ((( give-us-po-wer!
 
@Gortaur it boosts my acceptance rate
 
@robjohn Okay, I added mine.
 
@AlexeiAverchenko I also did it - or sometimes I answered my own questions if I found the answer. But why game theory?
 
@tb I've added mine, too, so now it is officially undeleted.
 
@Gortaur well, i'm a rational reputation whore
 
6:17 PM
@tb It was undeleted by the time I clicked it
Ah it was Mike
 
@AlexeiAverchenko excuse me, who're you?
 
btw, here's the question i asked
3
Q: What is the basis for Christian disapproval of creation of artificial life?

Alexei AverchenkoWe can now design bacterial genome from scratch, as mentioned in this thread on skeptics.se, and this opens up new and exciting possibilities for solving many problems the humanity is facing today, from efficient generation of drugs and fuels to pollution and world hunger (although the latter mig...

i got a pretty good answer, all things considered
@Gortaur who-who, who-who
 
@AlexeiAverchenko Karaganwho? )
 
oh, they didn't delete my previous question after all!
2
Q: How could Cain have built Enoch?

Alexei AverchenkoGod cursed Cain to be an eternal wanderer, so he went to a (probably figure-of-speech) land of wandering, the land of Nod, this much I understand. But then he builds the first city, Enoch. How is it compatible with being an eternal wanderer? UPD: The principal source on which I base the claim th...

 
@AlexeiAverchenko You do know that Francis Collins, the director of the Human Genome Project in the U.S., is a fairly outspoken Christian, don't you?
 
6:21 PM
it's very easy to ask upvoted questions on christianity.se, much easier than on math.se :)
 
@AlexeiAverchenko troll me tender, troll me sweet
 
@MikeSpivey no, i'm not generally interested in those sort of things
 
@AlexeiAverchenko Just thought it might be relevant to your question...
 
@MikeSpivey it kind of is, but then again HGP was not aimed at creating a life form from scratch
 
@AlexeiAverchenko Fair enough.
 
6:24 PM
i have to get back to churning exercises in Hatcher :)
who knows, maybe i'll be able to get into a decent grad school in a few years if i'm diligent enough :)
 
@AlexeiAverchenko I wish you good luck. It's really sad when smart and creative people do not have this change. I really hope it's not your case
 
@Alex have you thought of a particular school?
 
not yet
stanford maybe :)
vakil's students' theses look good
but i'm not really familiar with the system
 
unfortunately me too, but the earlier you start being familiar the better
 
6:36 PM
does it matter what education i got beforehand? what are the conditions for receiving financial aid? how much living there would cost? these kinds of questions, they are just not explained very well
what are the academic prerequisites?
what kind of research is expected from me?
i'm clueless :(
how am i going to write the statement of purpose if i don't have a coherent idea of what i'm going to study and research?
do i have do research before i even get a chance at applying?
 
Stanford has an online application system for grad school. You can find all the admission information on their website. Make sure your writing is good, in particular you will have to write a motivational letter. Publications will increase your chances. And most importantly you need a good score in the GRE test, both subject and general. The latter should not be a problem, maybe except for the part with the vocabulary test.
 
i don't understand what is expected from a motivational letter :)
 
You tell them how awesome you are and why, it needs to make them want to have you there.
 
'hi, i studied as an applied math undergrad and then pure math grad in a school in a small town in Siberia, but then i realized i'll have to study again because that one was worthless. i'm interested in ag, at, ct, ha, and potentially qft.' something like that?
 
@AlexeiAverchenko Sketch a heuristic argument that they'll probably get more out of admitting you rather than another applicant.
 
6:51 PM
well, the problem is that i have nothing boast about. i read a lot of books, i did exercises, i really love math - that's about it
 
Not quite. Find someone to help you with it.
 
@AlexeiAverchenko That's your motivation for wanting to be there, not a motivation for them to want you.
2
 
Then think harder.
@HenningMakholm: Yep. Well said.
 
i scored 127 IQ, i am very thorough reader
 
Lasagne time, sorry, bbl!
 
6:52 PM
:)
 
@Matt sounds good.
 
so i'm guessing i won't get anywhere without doing some research first
 
7:10 PM
@robjohn: Yes, but it wasn't, I'm traumatised. Ready to eat lasagne: never again : ( If only making a proper one wouldn't take half a day.
 
@Matt: You at Stanford?
 
@ZhenLin: No. I'm at ETH.
 
Ah.
 
Nothing cool, but I don't think it matters.
Actual skill, which I don't have yet, is more important than the name of the school.
But there are funny people out there who believe in "elite schools"... oh well!
 
ETH is equally famous, is it not?
I mean, I've heard of it, at least. :p
 
7:15 PM
Where are you from?
 
ETH = institute of technology of Helvetia?
 
yes
@ZhenLin: My partner is from Cambridge and they had never heard of it before :=)
 
I must admit, the only reason why I know it is because Einstein was a student...
 
: )
 
man... math is so frustrating!
i have been for the last two hours to solve this exercise... to no avail
how can I show for a) that it is a cauchy-sequence? math.stackexchange.com/questions/82682/…
i dont really get it
 
7:22 PM
@Clash What's wrong with pharmine's and Aryabhata's answers? The former seems to contain a detailed proof while the latter contains an excellent outline. AM-GM is this by the way.
 
pharmine says we can prove some conditions with induction, I can't prove it :(
and we havent seen squeze theorem at the classes, so i guess we are not allowed to use it
havent seen AM-GM either in classes, not sure if allowed to use it
 
@Clash If x_n \geq 0 then the inequality x_{n+1} - \sqrt{a} \geq [1/x_n times (something)^2] shows that x_n+1 \geq \sqrt{a}, right? in particular x_{n+1} \geq 0. This is the induction step.
 
where did you get x_{n+1} - \sqrt{a} \geq [1/x_n times (something)^2] from?
the induction step is to do, if x_n >= 0, then x_{n+1} >= 0, also, right?
but I didn't understand how you get the sqrt a and the other stuff
 
@Clash Oh, sorry it was an equality and I missed a factor of 2. I just took the first and last part of the equality after "we note that" in pharmine's answer.
And yes. It's for that.
 
I guess you mean x_{n+1} >= 0 >= 1/(2*x_n) * (x_n^2 +a)?
 
7:31 PM
I mean
 
but then I still have "a" in the formula, and I dont know if its positive or negative
 
 
thanks for the image! why did you subtract sqrt a?
aren't we trying to prove x_n >= 0?
or did i missunderstood you?
 
Made a typo again: this should be okay now. that's what I meant. The first and last part of the equalities that are displayed after "we note that"
 
@Clash my guess is it's positive, you're searching for \sqrt{a} after all :)
 
7:34 PM
@Alexei, but I haven't proven it's sqrt a? i really need to get another book, this isn't helping me much
 
Assume x_n \geq 0. Then the right hand side is \geq 0, so x_{n+1} - \sqrt{a} \geq 0
 
ill brb, dinner
 
so x_{n+1} \geq \sqrt{a}
 
@t.b.: completely unrelated but just to put my mind at rest: did I send the email to the right address?
 
@Matt I didn't get it. I'm having spamming trouble with that address. Didn't get around to taking care of it (and won't anytime soon).
 
7:38 PM
@t.b.: Good job I asked. Need to figure out something else then.
what about the address from the school you graduated from?
maybe with "alumni" in it?
 
(with a dot between the names)
 
@t.b.: I wonder if it worked.
 
@Matt: yep, got it
@Matt: Okay, I'll write back, promised.
 
Reading The Shape of Inner Space, I've come to a realization. The difference between a layperson and a mathematician at heart, is that the former gets bored seeing math in science books and the latter quietly thinks to themself while reading pop-sci books, "This is getting boring; where are the equations?"
4
 
@t.b.: Good. I hope you don't think I'm a suitor now. No worries about writing back soon, I just needed to know whether it got there or not.
@anon! Hey, how are you? You got me thinking. It really bothers me that there are clever people out there, with education, who have to pawn their laptop : (
 
7:49 PM
@Matt No worries, and next time choose the language you prefer: D/E/F. I'm fine with all of them.
 
@t.b.: English suits me best at the moment but I speak Peasant, too.
 
Eh, alright. Like I said I put all my files on an external so this is just temporary. (In theory.) The bigger problem is the Wii, whose past games and hours of save data I have to get back :)
 
: D
@anon: Hey, what's your progress towards resolving the situation? (if any)
Can you write code? If not, have you considered teaching yourself?
That would sort you out for good, I think.
 
Sent out some applications, will send out a lot more tomorrow cause I'm free. Friend who owes me 150 says he'll try and get it today/tomorrow and I get paid tomorrow too (but not much). The only code I every knew was BASIC a la TI calculators and Microsoft Visual, but I've long forgotten all of that. Teaching myself properly would require a laptop :/
 
I know : (
 
7:54 PM
But I'm compiling some math expressions to put on a little tutoring-note to put on local campus bulletin, for fun.
 
When I went to work for my last employer I basically learned C# on the job... and only on the job.
 
@anon: The problem with tutoring is that the work and therefore the pay is not always there.
 
Because, well, Visual Studio only runs on Windows and I don't have a Windows machine.
 
@Matt: True, but they pay better than minimum. Anyway, I may be a bit idealistic. I was once tutoring the son of a CEO back home and got hella money that way... heh.
 
So not having a personal computer is no great hindrance to learning programming. But you do need to convince someone to hire you first...
 
7:56 PM
@Zhen: Yes, convincing someone to hire me would be a problem. I'm not exactly a good interviewee in person, but who knows.
 
@anon: Why?
I assume you're thinking "no work experience".
 
Well, groceries, kitchen, phone surveys, math tutoring. That's about it.
 
You'll have to be clever about selecting potential employers. Look for ones who have an intensive interview process. My last employer had me doing tests and exercises the whole afternoon before giving me an offer...
 
@anon: The question is: would you even like to work as a software engineer?
 
Dunno.
 
8:02 PM
You'll have to figure that out first then. The pay is awesome and demand is high.
And many mathematicians who leave academia end up as programmers.
You need to have some perspective, mate!
 
Whatever it is you decide, remember that we all die eventually.
 
@anon: Have you tried to get an internship position? They might be easier to get.
 
@AsafKaragila eventually always
 
@AsafKaragila: I don't think you have to remember that once you are happy.
 
No, I've only ever shot for low-hanging jobs. Maybe I'll look into jobs like these online in my city.
 
8:06 PM
Fact is, giving away his wii with all the save files made him unhappy.
@anon: Shoot as high as possible, it doesn't matter if you miss.
 
hi tb, are you still there?
@tb
 
Bye for now, I'm not getting anything done while logged into this chat. Good luck @anon! And @Clash: I think getting the privilege of private tutoring and then having dinner right in the middle doesn't show much appreciation for other peoples' time.
 
I'm sorry, I didn't know was going to be ready soon, of course I'm very grateful for the help I've been given though
*that it was going to be
 
8:32 PM
@ZhenLin What kind of machine do you have?
 
@robjohn Not a Windows one.
 
@AsafKaragila thanks, I got that much :-p
 
@robjohn Just wanted to make sure.
 
@AsafKaragila and I can appreciate that.
 
@robjohn You can, but you won't. This is a delivery business!! Not a prom limousine, dammit!!!!
 
8:38 PM
@Clash: yes, I'm around for a moment
 
@AsafKaragila Not a spaceship?
 
Nice catching on the Futurama reference.
Kif Gets Knocked Up A Notch.
 
the web is a marvelous reference ;-)
 
Shame. :-P
I thought that you are familiar with the tiny details of Futurama.
 
I had no idea, but it sounded like a movie quote, so I found the Futurama quote.
Sorry
 
8:41 PM
I can recite most Futurama's original run. I may miss the exact wording, but not by much usually.
 
Star Wars (4,5, and 6) and Monty Python for my group of friends. Futurama is too recent for us.
 
Well, I know many a reference from those as well. Although not verbatim like I do with Futurama.
 
8:56 PM
@robjohn so you love SW? so do I
 
@Gortaur not surprising, is it?
 
@Robjo not at all
 
Robjo??
Gorto, why would you call him Robjo?
 
@AsafKaragila If he says @Rob it goes to someone else
 
@robjohn To Mr. "I AM NOT A TROLL"
 
8:58 PM
the new chat member Rob
 
Gorta, I suppose.
 

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