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12:45 AM
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Did you decide that any words were so bad in titles that you would contemplate having them blocked completely, or perhaps just warned about?
 
 
3 hours later…
3:27 AM
0
Q: Can the help page be updated?

neilfeinCritique requests have been off-topic on Writers for some time now. Today, I was looking at this site's help pages and came across this: This is not the right site for questions about: Writing advice or critique requests - see writers.stackexchange.com instead. Thanks for sendin...

 
 
2 hours later…
5:13 AM
@tchrist Yes I think it's time for that.
 
 
6 hours later…
11:42 AM
> Rev 1 (OP): Which preposition is better to use in the following sentence?
> Rev 2 (me): Which preposition is better in “There is meat, rice and tomatoes [ in / on ] the plate”?
> Rev 3 (OP): Which preposition is better to use in the following sentence?
> Rev 4 (Maulik V): (same)
> Rev 5 (Brian Hitchcock): **"in"** or **"on"** a plate?
(I use the code format because that's exactly what it looks like on the main page.)
I don't want to start an edit war, but I think we've got a problem.
 
12:21 PM
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I wouldn't even mention edit war - just putting the link is probably fine.
 
@jimsug 5 revs is a good sign.
OK guys, let's concentrate. @Dam you here?
 
It's like shouting "this user posts bad answers all the time, but let's not engage in serial downvoting"
Even if it would've happened anyway, it puts the idea where people wouldn't otherwise have.
 
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Yes, remotely.
 
@jimsug What I've observed on ELL is people won't stop a behavior unless you tell them to.
@DamkerngT. Get closer. We have important things to do.
1. Make a chat ad.
2. Write meta about warning users about bad keywords in the title.
So, let's first make a chat ad.
But I'm warning you, the best you can expect from me is MS paint.
@Dam @Jim
 
What's the best interaction that we've had with a user, that is something we would want more of?
 
12:25 PM
I'm mostly unavailable at the moment. But I can be here remotely for now.
 
We're all here remotely ;)
 
True that.
Anyway, LET'S MAKE A CHAT AD COMMON!
 
Well, I'm three screens away, or something like that. :P
 
Okay, yeah. So, what's an example of a good chat experience?
 
Aha. You meant that.
 
12:26 PM
I don't really mean something like... proofreading, we probably don't want more of that in here... do we?
I mean, chat is ostensibly meant to be on-topic as well.
 
@jimsug Many people love coming here and getting an answer to an ELL question they had that couldn't or didn't want to on the main site.
 
And proofreading... isn't.
 
Chat regs love chat because they're chat regs.
 
We also don't want to divert questions away from main.
Because, well, that's the point of main.
 
@jimsug We never do.
 
12:27 PM
Agree. I think we can help some, but not always.
BTW, MS Paint is fine. If we have a good idea, we can make it look neater later.
 
What's the selling point of chat?
Why would people want to come here and chat?
 
@jimsug Because "how cn i improv mah english kthxbai?"
 
Chief reasons: hanging out; want a quick answer; to practice English
 
I wouldn't want to make an ad that promotes "getting a quick answer" in chat.
 
12:32 PM
(Besides the main site stuff)
 
1) that'll draw bad questions here, and 2) that'll draw questions away from main.
 
nods
 
I don't run shouting "come to chat people!" on chem, because they're chemists and chat isn't vital for them.
 
Hanging out and practicing English.
 
ELLers are looking for chat without knowing it.
 
12:33 PM
Okay, that seems good.
 
One thing is, we're not terribly organized.
There's a load of activities we could do here, while we don't.
 
yeah, but that's mainly because us three would be the main participants.
 
Because guess why . . . Almost all of the regs here are here for the sake of fun or learning advanced grammar.
Yes.
 
It seems so
 
One activity I enjoy in chat is bringing up a question or an answer and chatting about it.
It mostly happens in LO right now, but it could happen in both or more rooms.
K, so what's it gonna be guys?
 
12:39 PM
Let me try something, I'll be back with a thing.
 
Yay!
 
Okay, so it'll be like that but with more styling.
I'll add some gravatar identicon-like things on the left.
I need another line of text, though :P
 
Hmm, something like "have fun!"
Oh, @Jim, an idea.
 
Hmm.
 
12:47 PM
What do you plan the image to be?
 
What image?
It'll look like chat messages.
Sorry, that wasn't clear ;P
 
Oh, I see!
How about make it look like text messages on phone?
 
But chat doesn't look like that :P
 
No, I mean the background image.
You could make it a faded out version of the avatars of the chat regs @Jim.
 
@jimsug That's why it's an ad. :P
 
12:50 PM
Oh, I was just going to use the chat background texture.
I'll try both and see what looks better.
I could even just post both tbh :P
 
Nah, the avatars is better.
 
A-ha!
 
See the 10M background?
 
Does that content look okay, though? I mean, I can change it later, I suppose.
Ah, right.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I understand. I'll still do both, but I know what you mean and I might agree.
I'll try to do a phone chat type of thing as well.
So like that, but with style.
Also I'm not sure we have enough chat regs for it to not obviously repeat
 
Yeah, sounds like a good idea!
Get rolling!
@jimsug We have Snail, you, Dam, me, TCh, Stoney, Catija, Nathan . . .
 
1:06 PM
That'll repeat too obviously, I think.
 
Oh, by repeat you mean that . . .
Well you could also enter @user62 something and @Ahmad and @Arau etc.
How many avatars do you need @Jim?
 
Let me figure that out.
 
1:22 PM
Is that... fuzzy?
 
Stylish!
But still a bit, I dunno.
 
I think having faded avatars would be distracting for this type of thing.
 
I like it.
Scratch that. I love it.
 
This one? Or faded avatars?
 
This one's great.
What would the other one look like?
 
1:25 PM
I haven't done it up yet.
Also I'm hesitant to use people's avatars without their permission.
Technically I would need to attribute it, because of the license.
 
Hmm.
You can use my avatar.
@Dam can he use yours?
 
The other thing that Dam mentioned was having it look like a phone conversation.
I mean a text message conversation, I think.
 
I liked this one's style better.
But yeah, we could also try that.
 
It would look like this.
I mean.
^ this.
But with the text and images alternating alignment.
 
Nah, the chat style is better.
I always favor consistency.
 
1:28 PM
Something like this
(on the left)
and no onebox because google is lame with their g+ image hosting.
I'll just post it to the CPA thread?
Does it need antialiasing, or is it just my screen?
 
I still like the SE chat theme better.
 
> The other terror that scares us from self-trust is our consistency; a reverence for our past act or word because the eyes of others have no other data for computing our orbit than our past acts, and we are loath to disappoint them. ... A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do.
He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every
 
You could use more spaces between the lines of written script.
@tchrist Teehee!
 
I also don't want to follow the SE chat colors too closely.
Because technically the design isn't CC licensed.
It's almost certainly not going to be an issue, but still.
 
You could do anything you like.
Don't worry about our ideas.
 
1:31 PM
I'm just copying the colors and the font :P
I could put more of a gap...
 
Just doodle something, and we'll approve and make it an ad.
 
The text needs antialiasing, right?
 
Yep, a bit.
 
1:55 PM
2
Q: How related should a site proposal be in order to ask for a Community Ad?

BSMPThe closest existing answer I could find to my question states: Broader announcements not really specific to that community — DEBATABLE But that was well over 2 years ago. Has there been a more definite consensus on how related the topic of a proposal and graduated site need to be before re...

Hmm, @snailboat doesn't that mean your proposal is going to be advertised by the system?
Hullo @Pulkownik! Welcome to ELL's Cabin!
 
Okay, I am going crazy, I can't get the text to anti-alias
 
@jimsug It's not half-bad the way you posted it here.
We could probably change the image any time we want.
 
I don't know about that.
 
Superping Grace note and ask?
 
I think the effect is more pronounced because I look at it in PS, then when it exports it's slightly aliased.
That seems like mod abuse :P
I think I'll just put it up as is, for the time being.
If it gets downvoted due to aliasing issues I can always delete and post an antialiased version, if I can ever figure it out.
 
1:59 PM
(╯°Д°)╯︵ǝsnqɐ poɯ
 
Well, there's nothing in the onebox because it's an image-only post :P
 
Yippee!
Dear chatters, please cast your votes in favor of our community ad so it'd appear on the front page.
3
 
All of the other ads are a little aliased as well, aren't they?
I feel less bad
 
2:21 PM
Also, one for Meta
 
Nah, I want the chat's to get more votes.
When it got to 6, post meta's.
 
:P
I've put meta's up as well already. I could delete it.
hmm
there's too much space between to and meta
 
Noooo! Whatever. ELL does need meta participation.
 
@jimsug keming
Actually, letterspacing and wordfit, but still.
 
kerning was fine, there was actually a double space between to and meta :P
The bubbles could stand to be slightly larger.
ugh, now I can turn my dark theme back on.
 
2:28 PM
Something is wrong in "the".
The "th" is smashed and the "h e" is splat apart.
 
I think that's just helvetica's kerning.
It must have been manually adjusted for the Math Ed logo
 
That's basic unadjusted Helvetica kerning.
And yes, it looks bad, but not as bad as in your example for some reason.
 
2:44 PM
yeah, I don't know.
 
That's a bit hand-tweaked.
@jimsug Hm, those examples with "the" are fine. Weird.
 
fixed, I think.
thanks for the spot.
 
Good enough. Doesn't distract any longer.
It’s a curse of mine.
 
It's probably a little too small now, but otherwise fine.
 
Did you use optical kerning or straight font metrics?
 
2:53 PM
metrics
 
That's why then. :)
 
mm
 
I usually get better results out of optical.
> Helvetica almost always requires custom kerning to bring out the best. That's something that you cannot do for every word you ever wrote on web.
> Helvetica Neue was recreated for web. It is much better than bare Helvetica; but again it is not as great as many other typefaces crafted for web. And availability is a big problem on Windows.
This is pretty good, although more as a general overview.
 
3:44 PM
It is distressingly easy to go all obsessive on silly little typographic matters that at small display sizes are easily unnoticed by casual readers.
 
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Of course.
@jimsug Cool!
 
Hi @DamkerngT.
Good evening @tchrist
 
Hi! Long time no see!
 
I sometimes visited the ELL, and left some answers, but had little time to chat :(
how r u guys doing?
 
@Man_From_India Hullo!
Great!
 
3:55 PM
I noticed that. Glad to see you around anyway.
Good!
 
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Hi...how r u doing?
 
I left an answer to this question, but not very sure about OP's second sentence. I think using that there is incorrect. How do you see it?
0
A: "As" and "That"

Man_From_India Such boys as/that/who obtain good marks will be rewarded by the principal. This is idiomatic. Such here is a determiner, to be precise a pre-determiner. And the head noun is boys. The noun phrase here is Such boys. The part - as/that/who obtain good marks - is modifying the noun phrase. Th...

> Such was the condition that/as was the treatment.
 
I think it's okay.
I'm thinking about the 'as'...
 
I am unsure about such use of that :(
 
3:59 PM
That should be okay, syntactically.
 
Is it a relative pronoun in that sentence. I mean that?
 
It sounds like something in a very old book with as.
@Man_From_India I read it that way.
 
Ah...I am not very sure about it. But with that I don't have any idea what that sentence mean. With as it's fine.
I feel as there is a conjunction, as it is in here - She is beautiful as was her mother.
 
@Man_From_India That's why I think it's okay syntactically.
@Man_From_India nods -- I just wonder who still writes that way nowadays.
 
Ah I had a quick glance in other answers there... Most of them find the second one strange.
 
4:04 PM
I haven't read any. :D
 
@DamkerngT. :-)
Oh OP is another man from india :P and he cited those examples from a book that I am not sure everything there is correct. Because I have seen many such exam guide books are full of errors :(
 
I thought he was from maybe Iran or Egypt.
 
He wrote in a comment that that book is found in India. So I guessed that he might be from India too :)
 
@DamkerngT. When in doubt, they're always from India.
 
A-ha! I haven't seen that comment, I think.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Hah!
 
4:08 PM
And the background of his DP is Taj Mahal :D
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M :D
 
Oh, really! (looking)
Yes, you're right!
 
BAD TITLE ALERT: Please provide proper grammar for sentence below
 
Facepalm prolly proofreading.
 
’Twas.
 
4:13 PM
@TCh people don't seem inclined in imposing bans in titles.
Warnings are okay tho'.
 
@tchrist Bad question as well :-)
 
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Didn't you have a list of terms you looked for in titles to put them on the list of titles needing revisions?
 
@tchrist Yes, but people are against bans for some reason. :/
 
On SO, words like help, problem, question are banned in titles. Certainly the last could not be made to work on a language site, since questions are themselves valid things to ask about.
And the first two do not come up all that often in titles.
I’m going to ask for a complete ban on only grammatically and correct in titles, because questions containing those are more often closed and deleted than not, and because they very, very, very nearly always signal a trivial Boolean yes/no question that is poorly framed and which will never be of any benefit to any future visitor to the site.
SO banned problem in titles for getting just 22% closure rate. Grammatically gets 56% and correct gets 51%. I don’t know the composite metric, though.
 
The user will be informed immediately when they type those words in their titles, right?
 
4:23 PM
There are infinitely many proofreading questions that ask whether some new sentence is grammatically correct.
@DamkerngT. Almost. They have to leave that input box for the pop up to occur.
 
Maybe we should open a meta post and ask people which ones to ban and which ones to give a warning to.
 
The problem with warnings is that they may do little enough good, especially if they are long.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Yes, that is the only way to start.
 
nods
 
4:25 PM
Cracks knuckles Let's chip in.
@TCh could you please ping the ELL mods so they'd know about it?
 
The shorter the warning, the more likely it is to be read, and the more likely read the more likely heeded.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Naw. All meta posts go right to their inboxes.
 
@tchrist esp. when it gets to ELLers.
@tchrist Eh? Good.
 
I have the evidentiary data for ELU, courtesy of Jon Ericson.
 
I think the word "this" is probably a better signal.
(and "below")
 
@DamkerngT. It's a signal for improvement, not ban-worthy. Yeah.
 
4:28 PM
I am also contemplating a tag warning for grammar and for grammatically. If those were the same tag, they would be the most commonly used tag on ELU. However, they are strictly meta tags of no great usefulness. Moreover, grammar is very often used wrongly.
 
Not sure if it should be banned-- yes, that's what I thought.
 
@DamkerngT. Agree.
 
@tchrist Exactly.
 
Subcontinentals seem especially prone to using the below. I don't know why,.
 
People tag something with "just" and that's really broad.
 
4:30 PM
It is not a useful tag in any way.
 
Neither are and company.
 
Um.
 
We have word-, sentence-, phrase-, idiom- etc. meaning.
 
You know, you cannot write "So isn't/aren't", and I can't quite tell you why. That needs to be "Neither are".
It's some sort of negative polarity thing.
 
Yeah I used to 'know' that.
 
4:33 PM
Arguments in favor of title or tag warnings over bans is that they never stop false positives, are less draconian, and perhaps lead to better labelling.
However, it’s possible that they don't, and that people just don't read them anyway.
In which case they just make things untidy.
 
Almost everything is untidy on ELL IMO.
Let's add more entropy!!!!!!111!!!111!!!oneoneone!!!
 
4:52 PM
You know.
You guys have used the wicked grammar tag almost as many times as ELU has, for like only one sixth the total questions.
That means that you have the problem like five or six times as bad as we do.
Right now I'm looking for examples of good uses of the grammar tag. Can anyone please help me find some?
Either on ELL or ELU is fine.
I am trying to find "the exceptions to prove a rule".
 
@tchrist There is nothing does better than one of its sub-tags do.
2
 
My conjecture is that questions with several tags, one of which is grammar, should simply have grammar removed, and that questions having only grammar as a tag should be relabelled completely.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M jinx :)
I have not yet found any obvious cases where my conjecture would not apply.
There is a lot more energy on ELL for site maintenance than on ELU.
This saddens me.
And yet, imagine SO!
 
I think it's because questions that really deserve are off-topic. :P
 
@tchrist It's 'cause the problems are more evident on ELL.
 
Perhaps.
I’m not even sure that the grammaticality tag is of much value.
One thing is for sure, the correct tag needs burnination and blacklisting.
 
4:59 PM
Agree.
 
5
Q: Please either burninate the “correct” tag or merge it into “grammaticality”

tchristWe have 38 questions tagged correct. This is a horrible meta-tag that does no good. It should either be removed altogether and put on the blacklist, or possibly merged into the grammaticality tag.

There are just 38. I could do the removal myself. But I can't blacklist or syntag it.
 
 
2 hours later…
Anonymous
7:14 PM
Wow! I had no idea there was a tag, either.
 
Anonymous
At least it helps us distinguish the questions about correct from the questions about incorrect.
 
8:10 PM
Pretty sure that correct should be title-banned.
 

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