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7:00 PM
Never heard of it.
 
It is a YA book about a boy who lives in a world where anyone can hear whatever everyone else is thinking who is within hearing distance.
 
What's YA?
Sounds interesting.
 
Young Adult literature=)
 
Oh gotcha
 
The 'fun' thing is that there are only male inhabitants in his town, and when he meeds a girl for the first time, he discovers that everyone can only hear mens thoughts, but not womens
 
7:02 PM
The Knife of Never Letting Go is a young-adult novel by Patrick Ness, published by Walker Books in May 2008. It inaugurated the Chaos Walking series, was celebrated by critics, and won annual awards including the Booktrust Teenage Prize, the Guardian Award, and the James Tiptree, Jr. Award. The Knife was Ness's first work for children or young adults. According to The Guardian's coverage of its award, "He turned to children's fiction after he had the idea for a world where it is impossible to escape information overload, and knew it was right for teenagers." == Plot summary == Todd Hewitt is the...
 
It is really well written, if you like reading I definitely recommend it, but it is quite long.
 
FYI for the curious ^
 
Just avoid the spoilers.
 
@flawr I'll check it out. I've been looking for something interesting to read lately. Most of the stuff I have that I haven't read is stuff like Gödel, Escher, Bach. Haven't been in the mood for that.
Other things on my to-buy list: The Martian and I Think You'll Find It's More Complicated Than That.
Hm, maybe I should make a trip to the bookstore today.
 
*bookshop
 
7:11 PM
We call them bookstores in the US.
 
What's a bookstore?
 
Don't tell me you call them bookshops too.
I've only ever heard "bookstore."
 
I believe in the US "store" is where things are sold and "shop" is where things are made, unlike in the UK where "store" is where things are stored and "shop" is where things are sold.
 
US bookshops are the best
 
@AlexA. No, but most of the bookstores around here have closed down. Amazon and all :(
 
7:13 PM
Well Barnes and Noble is great
 
Interesting! Thanks for that @trichoplax.
 
Only been in 1 other
 
@Geobits :( Do you have a Half Price Books or any kind of local used book stores?
Seattle has a bunch.
 
@AlexA. Bear in mind I'm in the UK, so our impressions of what rules apply in the US are limited and may not apply overall
 
@BetaDecay Correction: US bookstores are the best.
 
7:14 PM
@Geobits It finally finished!
13,706,072 bytes though :( A little high
 
Yes, we have a nice local store nearby, but trying to find a full series to read is almost impossible there. It's nice to browse around and find something, though.
 
@trichoplax Well in this situation I think you did an excellent summary.
 
@Geobits That's what Amazon was made for
Literally IIRC
 
Only if you don't want to support local businesses. ;)
 
7:15 PM
Meh in the UK local businesses are dying anyway
 
I try to support them. If I'm looking for something specific, though, they just don't have it too often.
 
@Geobits The Half Price Books near me has full series of many novels. It's pretty nice.
@Geobits Yes, fair point.
 
@Geobits I agree.
2
 
@BetaDecay Which is why you should support them, yeah? :P
@Geobits I second this.
 
I agree with @Optimizer too!
 
7:17 PM
@Optimizer Too bad nobody else does. :P
 
:'(
 
I'm just kidding <3
 
;_;
T^T
 
If anyone likes bookshops:
 
TT.TT
 
7:18 PM
@BetaDecay My computer is running slow enough that I can actually keep reading pace as it prints out the Bible :P
 
TT^TT
 
Well, "genesis"
 
@Shebang Ouch.
 
@BetaDecay four years in the UK and I didn't manage to go once :(
 
∏.∏
 
7:19 PM
I think this work computer is suffering from the 4GB of sub-par RAM, not going to work on this more till I'm home
 
2
Q: Byte counts for machine code

Beta DecayRecently, an answer to my question was given in x86_64 machine code, with a score of 10 bytes. Now I didn't think much of this until Peter Taylor brought up that the program is actually 142 bytes. The author of the answer contested that it was 142 bytes in assembly, not machine code. So who is r...

 
γ.γ gammas work reasonably well, too
 
@TheNumberOne here's some code that checks that the 135 byte solution gives the same results as the 154 byte one for all programs with length less than 7: ideone.com/oj3hal
 
@MartinBüttner Cambridge University Press bookshop is also brilliant
 
I don't think I've been there, although I went to Cambridge two or three times. well, London has some really nice bookshops as well. :)
 
7:25 PM
@Geobits Now that I've fixed my number parsing (had the same 0-issue) I'm sitting at 601,220 :( Kinda interesting that we're all within 4 bytes though.
 
@MitchSchwartz Wow, you have golfed it a lot. I'll incorporate the changes.
 
Yea, I expected differences to be wider. I wonder what they're doing differently.
 
We should all link to our files (once I post as well) so we can run it though kdiff or something, I'm interested to see what could be causing it
 
@AlexA. I think I even have these as ebooks, if you are interested.
 
I finally went and did it: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/55398/3852
 
7:28 PM
(the patrick ness ones)
 
Also, jeez, I have some gs2 snippets to write for the other thing I should go and do.
Oddly, the snippets and tables in the manual specify GO TO as being two words
(Or, not oddly, because "go to" is two words. Maybe all other BASICs are the weirdos.)
 
@Sp3000 Here are the first 1000 programs: pastebin.com/bGvE16CP
 
Looks like I have to learn SNOBOL3 then :p
 
@TheNumberOne :)
i just was focused on making code that gave equivalent results; i still haven't really looked into why it works
 
-~ is equivalent to +1
 
7:41 PM
i'm trying to see if there's a shorter way to get at len(a)-len(b)-c
 
@flawr As PDFs? I usually prefer paper copies of books to get myself away from the computer for a bit but I'll keep that in mind. Thanks :)
 
if we don't strip the initial '[' we would get the same d, and i think we can get the same c if we use (d>0!=e=='['), but i'm not sure if that helps
 
If you don't strip the intials [s, c+=(e=='[')-(c>0<e>'[') will be missed up.
 
(e=='[') -> (d>0!=e=='[')
cool so that's 128 now
a=input()
b=a.strip(']')
c=d=0
for e in b:d=d*8+'[<>,.-+]'.find(e);c+=(d>0!=e=='[')-(c>0!=e>'[')
print(-~d*8**(len(a)-len(b)-c))
 
What an interesting profile rant: meta.stackoverflow.com/users/103167/ben-voigt
 
7:48 PM
@MitchSchwartz Just tested it, it works.
 
@Rainbolt Oh, it's changed a bit since rainbow day. IIRC it was a bit harsher then.
 
@MitchSchwartz Use this to test your golfs of this.
 
thanks
is numerate / denumerate common terminology? i've heard rank / unrank for similar situations
not that it matters
 
@AlexA. I bought an ebook-reader (or whatever you call those devices in english), and love it=)
 
^ My kindle is great. So much better than an LCD type screen.
 
7:51 PM
@Geobits Glad I missed it honestly. It's more relaxing to read after the fact
(Oh, I'm talking about the post now. I got off topic.)
 
It was definitely an interesting day on meta :)
 
@MitchSchwartz No, I have very little combinatorics experience so I would have no idea.
 
ok was just curious about the terminology, sorry if bad etiquette
 
I didn't notice any, so it's okay.
 
@Geobits Ben and Pat look kind of similar boardgames.stackexchange.com/users/40/pat-ludwig
 
7:57 PM
d>0!=e=='[' --> how about 0<d<e=='['?
 
hmm, maybe find is better
well the issue is python 3 not allowing comparisons between different types
the != is for python 3
for python 2 you can use <
 
Ah, this is py3
 
d>0<e=='['
 
Should I switch to python2?
 
well i view it as a matter of preference, and not necessarily "choose the one that is shortest"
 
7:59 PM
"python3">"python2"
 
there are golf servers where python2 and python3 are separate categories with separate rankings
 
>>> "python3">"python2"
True
2
 
I feel like generally 2 is better at golfing. Shorter print, backtick repr()
but it depends on the problem...
 
raw_input() vs input() is the primary reason I have to switch to 3
Not that I have golfed in like a year or anything...
For all I know people don't take input from stdin anymore and we have evolved to something else
 
@Rainbolt Good point, my program would actually get longer because of that.
 
8:02 PM
I would post more challenges but every day I wake up and see that Calvin's Hobbies has stolen my idea
 
@Rainbolt I still can't figure out how @Sp3000 squeezes a massive function into one line.
 
input() in Python 2 is generally fine to use if you mention surrounding the input as quotes.
I used to add the quotes to the byte count, but enough people said I didn't need to for me to stop doing it.
 
input() in Python 2 is best for number inputs
instead of int(input()) or float(input())
 
@TheNumberOne it's ok to use strip instead of rstrip because a valid brainfuck program can't start with ']'
 
Well, if you had to use Py3 you'd probably use eval(input()) for any type over 4 chars long. :P
 
8:12 PM
and the other 2 bytes savings comes from c=d=0 instead of e.g. c=0;d=0 or c,d=0,0
 
@Shebang Is your Fourier golfer ready yet? :)
 
1 moment
 
@BetaDecay No, it's futile trying to test and modify this thing at work :P Once I get home and double-check everything I'll post :p
 
@Shebang Oh sure. Do you have a faster computer at home?
[removed]
Haha SE thought that was a link and tried to load it
 
Yes, I do. Here at work it's a 4GB desktop with VS, more instances of Opera than you can imagine, TortoiseHG and SSMS running
And the 4GB RAM is dying
At home I've got an 8GB RAM laptop with a much better CPU
 
8:30 PM
That should be much better
Especially for Genesis
 
Genesis?
 
First book of the Bible
 
@MitchSchwartz I have finished golfing it.
@BetaDecay It's also The First Book of Moses
 
It's also my workplace
 
@TheNumberOne Ohh that's interesting. Is the Book of Mormon different from the Book of Moses?
 
8:42 PM
There's a few thousand years difference in date written
 
@BetaDecay Yes
@trichoplax Are you LDS ?
@BetaDecay The Books of Moses are the first 5 books in the bible. The Book of Mormon is a book translated by Joseph Smith that was written over a period of about 1000 years and was compiled by an ancient historian by the name of Mormon. The Book of Moses is an extract from Genesis with the parts that have been mistranslated and left out since Moses wrote it introduced back in through revelation.
 
@TheNumberOne Are you religious or is this copypasta?=)
 
religious
 
kudos.
 
9:00 PM
@TheNumberOne Hm. Ever since staying in St George, Utah I've been fascinated about the LDS
 
9:17 PM
@TheNumberOne it's trivial, but you wrote that you gave the first 1000 programs but there are only 999
 
Vi.
Has anybody tried completing MAL in one's favourite esolang?
 
@Mitch Fixed
 
@Vi. This is cute. I should make one in CJam or the likes :)
 
Vi.
I've completed step0 in CJam, but step1 is already difficult (how does one make a tree data structure in CJam?).
 
9:28 PM
I should totally do that in Snowman :P
 
@Vi. array represtation
 
nested arrays
 
is it not a binary tree?
 
Vi.
Is there comprehensive documentation (hopefully not relying on prior stack-based programming experience) about CJam with usage examples for each function or one is expected to RTFS?
 
RTFS seems like a pro in explaining what it means by letting people use its abbv.
 
9:31 PM
@Vi. I started writing something more comprehensive, but only about 3 operators so far
@Vi. also see the fan contributions at sourceforge.net/p/cjam/wiki/Home
 
@MitchSchwartz Are you mitchs from Anarchy Golf?
 
@TheNumberOne i think this alternate 135 is a bit interesting, but maybe not helpful
c=d=C=D=q=0
for e in input():d=d*8+'[<>,.-+]'.find(e);c+=(d and'['==e)-(c and'['<e);q,C,D=(0,q+1,c,C,d,D)['['<e::2]
print(-~D*8**(q-C))
@xnor yeah
 
nice to see you here!
 
@xnor I don't know how he gets these to so few characters.
 
9:36 PM
@Vi. also, in general, one is expected to know golfscript :p
 
Vi.
Is there one step-by-step CJam debugger that can trace commands, showing the stack and variables?
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

xnorUndo the Fundamental Transformation on permutations code-golf A permutation like [3, 5, 1, 4, 5, 6] 1->3, 2->5, 3->1, 4->2, 5->4, 6->6 can be written as a union of cycles: (31)(542)(6) There's many ways to write these cycles, but we fix a canonical form by requiring that: In each cycle...

 
Vi.
Is GolfScript more documented compared to CJam?
 
yes, unless the golf script website is down.
 
@xnor i think you meant [3, 5, 1, 4, 6] instead of [3, 5, 1, 4, 5, 6] ?
 
9:41 PM
@Vi. not really, but you can insert ed anywhere you want to see the stack
@Vi. currently, yeah
also, you can ask questions in here, there's someone who can answer almost anytime
 
intellij embedded terminal is not working :(
 
Vi.
Is CJam like "GolfScript-ng" or there are technical drawbacks compared to GolfScript?
 
@Vi. CJam is to Golfscript as C# is to C
 
I think I called it once "GolfScript on steroids"
 
or [3, 5, 1, 2, 4, 6]
waited too long to delete my earlier message
 
Vi.
9:49 PM
How can one iterate array (for example, produced by l command) in CJam?
 
:(command) maps or reduces
 
what do you mean by iterating?
 
Vi.
For example, to do something with each character and maybe store (push) to array in other variable...
 
@TheNumberOne 124 bytes now!
c=d=C=D=0
for e in input():d=d*8+'[<>,.-+]'.find(e);c+=(d and'['==e)-(c and'['<e);C,D=(-c,C+1,d,D)['['<e::2]
print(-~D*8**C)
 
the most general form is {...}%
or {...}/
the first one collects the results (if any) in an array, the other one leaves them on the stack
 
9:52 PM
@flawr Are you?
 
@MitchSchwartz How?
 
@Vi. the block is executed for each array item
not sure what you mean by "storing to array in other variable"
 
well, we process the whole string, but remember the state of things as of the last non-']' character
 
@Geobits My mom has one of those. Doesn't read regular books at all anymore. I haven't embraced digital book reading yet though. :)
@flawr That's great! What kind is it?
 
my version above with q corresponds more closely with the original calculation
but since we only need q-C we don't need to keep track of C and q separately, we can combine them (into C in the new code)
maybe the letter C is a little misleading, could choose another letter instead
since D holds a previous value of d, but not the case for C and c
 
Vi.
9:56 PM
Is whitespace a comment in CJam? (except of multichar operations, obviously)
 
No, e# is
 
ninja'd
 
it's just whitespace, like in regular languages
 
Vi.
Means is space or tab character a "nop" command that does not modify anything?
 
"Nop" == "no-op"?
 
Vi.
9:58 PM
Yes.
 
Okay, just checking
 
it's not really a command
it's skipped by the parser
 
@MitchSchwartz I count 126 bytes...
 
do you have dos/windows newlines?
 
mothereff.in/byte-counter counts newlines as one byte.
 
10:02 PM
copy and paste error? it's 124, and i get that with your link as well
maybe if i use backticks it will help?
c=d=C=D=0
for e in input():d=d*8+'[<>,.-+]'.find(e);c+=(d and'['==e)-(c and'['<e);C,D=(-c,C+1,d,D)['['<e::2]
print(-~D*8**C)
 
Indent by 4 spaces.
 
yeah that was my next try
 
Vi.
Documentation about CJam's ? is a bit short: ? - if (ternary). Does it pop 3 blocks from stack and executes either second or third depending on result of the first?
 
That's 124 bytes.
 
i don't see any difference between that and the other one on my end
 
10:06 PM
Maybe a hidden character or two added by SE?
 
i don't know, you're in a position to check, by copying and pasting locally into an editor and looking for a difference
i can't check, because for me they are the same
 
@Vi. the first value is just truthy/falsy (not a block). the other two can either be values or blocks. if they are blocks they will be executed.
the middle one is for truthy, the last one for falsy, same order as in a normal ?: ternary
 
@MitchSchwartz You've helped me too much. Thank you :)
I'm mainly a java golfer, not a python golfer.
 
:)
well i'd rather help out golfing your approach which is very nice for golfing, instead of mine which can't compete :)
 
I like my approach mostly because it is not recursive.
@BetaDecay I'm 50 away from 4000...
 
Vi.
10:12 PM
Is there CJam example that, for example, makes a tree and traverses that tree afterwards?
 
@Vi. yes, but they don't have to be blocks; see golfscript
 
@aditsu "yes"? popping a block as the truthy/falsy value doesn't seem to work.
 
Vi.
So the best way to get examples of CJam is to look at GolfScript?
 
@Vi. I don't think there is any tree example
@MartinBüttner right, the first one must not be a block
@Vi. you can find some examples in the wiki and also in the online interpreter
just none for trees
 
Vi.
OK.
 
10:17 PM
It would be simple to make a binary tree
 
@Vi. plus hundreds of examples on ppcg, there might be something that implements a tree somewhere
 
123 bytes by avoiding the -c
c=d=C=D=0
for e in input():d=d*8+'[<>,.-+]'.find(e);c+=(c and'['<e)-(d and'['==e);C,D=(c,C+1,d,D)['['<e::2]
print(-~D*8**C)
 
10:31 PM
@TheNumberOne 117 now
c=d=C=D=0
for e in input():v='[<>,.-+]'.find(e);d=d*8+v;c+=(c<0<6<v)-(d>0==v);C,D=(c,C+1,d,D)[v>6::2]
print(-~D*8**C)
 
Wow, it just got a little simpler.
 
I'm enjoying watching Mitch golf :)
2
 
It's like reality TV.
 
Clearly code golf should be a spectator sport
 
> 443 158 155 154 134 131 128 124 117 bytes
 
10:42 PM
haha
 
I golfed it from 443 to 158. @Sp3000 golfed it from 158 to 154. @Mitch golfed it the rest of the way.
 
xnor has been kicking a lot of ass on anarchy golf lately
not sure if i'm allowed to say that
going to dinner
 
11:05 PM
@TheNumberOne I don't happen to be, no.
 
@Doorknob :O It sure would appear that way.
What is it supposed to be in English?
 
"bbo"
 
if not "pokettokoirumattoresu"
 
It's not a real Korean word.
So the transliteration (i.e. the pronunciation) is "bbo."
 
Oh. (Btw do you speak Korean?)
 
11:19 PM
(It's my cousin's dog's name. :P)
 
Haha
 
I don't speak Korean fluently, but my mom is Korean and I know how to read/write it.
 
Very cool!
I have no Asian heritage but my dad's family lived in Korea for a while.
 
@Doorknob I know a couple korean kids.
But they were born and raised in America
 
손잡이
Doorknob
:D
Oh
I guess that's just "knob"
문 손잡이
 
11:25 PM
알렉스 A.
 
@MartinBüttner did you remove my $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ comment?
 
@AlexA. The literal translation of that is "hand catch," haha
 
I thought it was just a funny joke :(
 
알렉스
 
@Doorknob So is the other one "door hand catch"? :P
 
11:25 PM
Sir Alex
 
번호 하나 <-- The Number One?
 
@AlexA. It would appear so. :P
 
Excellent.
 
/me makes a mental note to rename myself "door hand catch" for April 1 next year
 
/me laughs
 
11:27 PM
@MitchSchwartz @TheNumberOne Wow 117, nice work :P
 
@orlp yes, it got flagged as not constructive and I thought the flag had a point.
 
@Doorknob You mean for the month of April? Reminds me of what happened to Digital Trauma.
 
44 mins ago, by TheNumberOne
I golfed it from 443 to 158. @Sp3000 golfed it from 158 to 154. @Mitch golfed it the rest of the way.
 
Yeah I saw :P
I didn't expect a full 37 bytes from when I last saw it
 
공간 파일럿 3000
 
11:29 PM
エスピー3000
 
@Sp3000 Wrong language :P
 
1
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Alex A.Fond Memories of Past Primes Consider a prime number p, written in base 10. The memory of p is defined as the number of primes less than p that are contained as substrings of p (without leading zeros). Challenge Given an integer n as input, find the smallest prime p such that p has memory n. T...

 
I don't Korean D:
 
Me neither, but Google does
 
@AlexA. uhh, "Start pilot 3000"?
 
11:30 PM
마틴 있음 Büttner
 
translate: 공간
(from Korean) Space
oh
 
:P
What do people think of my sandboxed post?
 
@TheNumberOne "Martin that Büttner"
3
@Doorknob why would anyone star "oh" ಠ_ಠ
 
@TheNumberOne how does your BF answer work?
I don't understand it
 
11:32 PM
@AlexA. Any rules about termination time?
 
@Sp3000 I didn't have any in mind.
Should I add one?
 
I dunno, how much brute force do you want to let people have?
 
I guess I don't care that much.
Should I?
 
You don't have to, was just checking :P
 
Does it seem like a decent challenge? Any issues with the spec?
 
11:39 PM
can anyone explain this answer to me?
8
A: Enumerate valid Brainf**k programs

TheNumberOnePython 3, 443 158 155 154 134 131 128 124 117 bytes c=d=C=D=0 for e in input():v='[<>,.-+]'.find(e);d=d*8+v;c+=(c<0<6<v)-(d>0==v);C,D=(c,C+1,d,D)[v>6::2] print(-~D*8**C) Several bytes thanks to Sp3000 and Mitch Schwartz :D How this works: This maps all valid BF programs into all possible, ...

I don't understand how removing the prefix [s and postfix ]s help anything
 
It's using the mapping to ignore the matching brackets criteria
 
I don't understand how
it only looks at the prefix and suffix brackets
 
Look at 9 to 16 - they are all 8 possibilities of < followed by a char
 
but I can take an arbitrarily complex brainfuck expression
and turn it into .BLABLABLA.
 
Except since <[ and <] are invalid, they get mapped to <[] and [<] respectively
 
11:43 PM
@Sp3000 if the strategy in the answer works, I should be able to get the same result by turning X into .X., encoding it, and then removing the .s again
since the answer only cares about prefix/postfix []
and obviously that doesn't work, so I don't understand how the answer could work
 
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean - would you have an example?
 
The answer only ever removes prefix [s and postfix ]s, right?
 
It doesn't remove all postfix ]s though
 
fair enough
but it never touches them in the middle?
 
Yeah
 
11:45 PM
ok
so take an arbitrary brainfuck program X
and turn it into .X.
this removes all prefix [ and postfix ]
since the program begins and ends with .
now, the encoding should still work - .X. is perfectly valid
but that can't possibly work
because now the encoding is effectively only doing octal encoding
 
Why not?
 
because octal encoding is not dense
it adds 3 bits of data for every brainfuck character, but sometimes only log2(7) bits are needed
on top of that
adding . to the ends of the expression, encoding it, then removing the .s is basically a no-op
 
No, that's not a no-op, e.g. .[].
 
@Sp3000 but I can remove those .s from the encoding after encoding, no?
 
Why should you be able to?
 
11:50 PM
because they are in a fixed location?
it's base-8 after all
just remove the first and last octal digit
 
Adding the dots changes the encoding entirely, so .[]. <-> .[]. and [] <-> ]
Also re: 3 bits of data - the encoding isn't nondecreasing in the length of the BF program it encodes as n increases, e.g. program 9 is three chars long and program 10 is two chars long
So in a sense some longer programs get "pushed down" into the lower numbers
(should also mention: not quite octal - octal except the first digit, which only has 7 possibilities due to being not [)
 

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