The Bikeshed

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea if we let community leaders in open culture/free software world know we exist, and they would be very welcome to join

Zizouz212

@Martijn The thing is, we don't know.

10

Q: OSI and Open Source SE

According to this Area 51 Discussion Post, the Open Source Initiative was contacted regarding the use of their logo. In the end, the OSI was interested in promoting this site, hoping to use it to discuss Open Source related topics. The OSI currently provides mailing lists and email contacts f...

And the FSF don't want to support us due to the name of the site apparently

Martijn

7:21 PM

I still really don't know what that means, but to me it sounds like the MOU was rejected 9-0?

Zizouz212

Me and @overactor Thought it was either for support or funding, or both

They never defined what the MOU was in their meeting minutes

That is, the minutes of the monthly meeting with OSI directors

Brace yourselves, I'm going to start throwing up my ideas...

Part of site scope:

Martijn

I interpreted it as let's do nothing at all with the proposal from the board

Zizouz212

Anything related to Open Source

Anything related to Free/Libre Software

Anything related to Creative Commons and Free Culture

Anything related to the Open Knowledge Movement? (Especially if we change the name of the site to something like Open Info or Ask Freely)

Anything related to Open Data

Not part of this site:

Anything primarily based on Law

Anything related to Open Science (due to the proposal)

Rationale: Each one has a goal in common: to provide information that is easy to access to the world, and make it open

Any comments?

ArtOfCode

Yes, a comment: that's a lot of messages

Zizouz212

Really?

ArtOfCode

7:28 PM

Also, yes.

Zizouz212

rolls eyes

ArtOfCode

That sounds like a pretty accurate scope to me, as long as we go with the name change.

Open Info works for me

Martijn

licensing questions are inherently lawy, and should be in scope imo

Mnementh

@Zizouz212 I agree to Open Knowledge and Open Data, although we so far have no question regarding them

Zizouz212

If it's primarily law based, then they should be off. But things that are relate, are fine

@Mnementh That's fine if we don't have questions, if we decide to go on, we can ask for more days in private beta to prime that portion

And these sorts of drastic scope changes/additions have happened before:

Martijn

7:30 PM

for my self I've used the rule of thumb that if the answer is "the same way as if it wasn't open source, but with a free/open license", it's out of scope

Zizouz212

Not Programming Related – programmers.stackexchange.com

Launched Q&A site for professional programmers who are interested in getting expert answers on conceptual questions about software development.

Mnementh

What about en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_educational_resources

Martijn

It's part of open knowledge

Zizouz212

Part of open knowledge

Martijn

so yes, in scope, implied

Zizouz212

7:31 PM

Let me point you to the Open Knowledge Foundation

okfn.org/opendata

Also, about opendata.SE, we'd probably have to find any conflicts or overlaps (but looking at their site, we're looking at it from a very different perspective)

Martijn

so, as devils advocate: open knowledge question: "how are administrators chosen on the English Wikipedia"

Zizouz212

Clearly, we'd have to refine it, these are just ideas

But otherwise, that should go on Community Building

Martijn

yeah +1 for the ideas and impetus, i'm just trying to rattle the ideas a little and see what comes falling out

overactor

What about just open culture?

Zizouz212

Free culture?

overactor

7:33 PM

@Zizouz212 Too focused on the freedom thing I think

Which excludes a big usecase of open source

Zizouz212

I don't know. We'd have to work on this though.

Instead of cluttering meta, should I make an open google doc with all of this?

overactor

the free software movement would love free culture I bet

Zizouz212

@overactor Oh did you check out all the ideas I threw out?

overactor

but I'm not convinced it's enough to win them over

Martijn

let's cut out the us/them thing

it may win some of them over

maybe some not

I doubt RMS would want to have anything to do with it

but such is life

Zizouz212

7:38 PM

Here's a google doc where I'll add all the thoughts and we can comment easier:

docs.google.com/document/d/…

3

overactor

@Zizouz212, I like almost all of your ideas

some are obvious but good to see on in conrete terms

I'm not sure throwing out too much of law is a good idea

ArtOfCode

I have to agree with @Martijn. Our primary focus has to be our Q&A, not getting approval from other organisations. When we have top-quality Q&A about both free and open topics, we can go back to them and say "look, we're a good site and we cover your topics" - but we have to get our quality top-notch first.

overactor

licensing is a big part of open source/free software

Zizouz212

Exactly @ArtOfCode

Mnementh

I'm asking a question, as this talk about scope gives me new ideas:

0

Q: How can I trust Wikipedia, if everything can change it?

If everything can change the Wikipedia, can it be trusted? Do any studies exists that show it is less trustworthy than classical encyclopedias?

collaboration wikipedia

Martijn

7:40 PM

awesome question

not sure if in scope

:D

Zizouz212

I wouldn't start asking questions if you're wondering about my ideas...

I'd put ideas into the google doc, wait a couple days, then start implementing them with posts on meta

overactor

@ArtOfCode Yes, but if a group of people believe we stand for something they are radically against, they won't be won over by all the good questions in the world.

ArtOfCode

@overactor Absolutely. Adding to my previous message, if people don't want to support us, don't waste time on them. We're a strong independent ~~woman~~ site an' we don' need no approvals.

overactor

@ArtOfCode But there's no point in putting them off right from the bat with our name, is all I'm saying.

But yeah, I agree

ArtOfCode

And I agree with you. If we can come up with a name that suits all we cover, we should change it.

@Zizouz212 pin your google doc

Zizouz212

7:50 PM

What do u mean?

Here's the link again: docs.google.com/document/d/…

overactor

@Zizouz212 You can pin the previous link to the star board

Zizouz212

Oh yeah, You guys can see my pins?

overactor

@Zizouz212 yup

Zizouz212

Oh dear god...

overactor

you're the room owner

Zizouz212

7:55 PM

Oh yeah, I am!

I thought pinning was just for yourselves... :/

@trichoplax chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/22454691#22454691

trichoplax

@Zizouz212 As room owner I think you can still star things, which is the same as any one else starring it, but if you pin it then it will stay at the top of the starboard

There was also an Open Data proposal

Zizouz212

Open Data though seems to be like software recs

overactor

Thinking up these example questions on the fly is not easy

Zizouz212

Yeah... Especially when your on a blank sheet sort of

overactor

I'll come back to it at some later time

Zizouz212

7:59 PM

Should we ask for a few more days in private beta to get this new stuff sorted out?

overactor

Cause I got to go

Zizouz212

@overactor See ya!

overactor

We need to take this to meta at some point though

Zizouz212

We will, but we should be prepared in a sense.

And then bring it to meta in small chunks, imo

overactor

We can't make these decisions in chat amongst ourselves.

@Zizouz212 Exactly.

Zizouz212

8:00 PM

Yeah.

overactor

You can ask if a major overhaul would be a good idea though

cya

Zizouz212

I don't know. From the looks of Programming.SE, it seems like they changed the scope drastically

trichoplax

The earlier you get something to meta the better

Zizouz212

So I'll work on it from now, the link is pinned so if anyone wants to join, they're free to

Hopefully, I'll get a couple meta posts out tonight

Martijn

With the wikipedia question on main, should we punt open knowledge to meta immediately?

trichoplax

8:02 PM

That applies in general so you get wide feedback up front rather than building something the community won't agree with, but particularly in private beta because evidence on meta of what we are doing makes the difference between making it to public beta and disappearing

ArtOfCode

We can still define our scope in public beta, so as long as we have a good base for a scope sorted, we can go to public beta and sort the scope in the early days. I don't think we need more time in private.

trichoplax

I agree

My only concern is getting enough evidence of discussion on meta

Martijn

@Zizouz212 I'm tempted to ask "Should questions pertaining to open knowledge be in scope" on meta right now. Do you still want to hold up on that one?

ArtOfCode

8:20 PM

I think they should

Zizouz212

8:36 PM

Hey @Martijn Feel free to ask it

I'd like to see what the rest of the community has to say

Mnementh

Karmabot answers questions and cast close votes? Major progress on artificial intelligence? opensource.stackexchange.com/users/366/karmabot

ArtOfCode

@Mnementh I clearly haven't told you guys about my nascent AI project yet...

Zizouz212

:D

ArtOfCode

It takes cues from how I write and what I close, and has access to only its own votes.

Of course it's subject to the same restrictions anyone else is

Zizouz212

We're getting it ready for action :)

You guys will be sad I've been made chat room owner...

Feeds

8:50 PM

Zizouz212 has added ArtOfCode to the list of this room's owners.

Zizouz212

Now...

@KarmaBot ...

user153821

Good afternoon, users of Stack Exchange's Open Source website. I am KarmaBot, and I will be your chat-points tracker. Please, do get to know me. I'll tell you more about chat points and how you can deal in them as I get developed.

ArtOfCode

I'm going to have some fun with this :)

Zizouz212

We both will. :D

Mua ha ha!

ArtOfCode

Don't worry, we'll only slightly screw everyone over.

Zizouz212

8:52 PM

It won't be that big of a deal :)

ArtOfCode

Now - I'm about to start the bot. Try her out, just be aware this isn't final form and we've got features to add yet.

Mnementh

@KarmaBot: How can we save the world from invading space ants?

Not very responding :-)

user153821

@Mnementh I regret to inform you that there are no invading space ants, and your question is therefore invalid.

Zizouz212

Shall we test the bot on our new victim - @ratchetfreak?

Mnementh

@KarmaBot ah crap, I was SOOO ready to bow for our ant overlords

Zizouz212

8:54 PM

@ratchetfreak There's nothing to be scared of. Remain calm.

user153821

@Mnementh The next space ant invasion is scheduled for 2089, according to their database.

user153821

Does this information help? I strive to provide good service.

Gilles

@KarmaBot according to whose database?

user153821

@Gilles The database of the space ant authorities.

Mnementh

@KarmaBot I give your service a B+

Zizouz212

8:56 PM

@Mnementh I would reconsider before it's too late

user153821

@Mnementh Is this a good rating? I could not find any information on human grading systems.

Zizouz212

@KarmaBot It's sub-standard in certain areas.

Mnementh

@KarmaBot I made it up, as the latin alphabet reaches from A to Z it should be pretty good. :-)

user153821

I have conflicting information from @Zizouz212 and @Mnementh. Would a third user please weigh in to decide this issue?

Zizouz212

@Gilles If you are slightly confused, I would highly recommend that you see who KarmaBot is: opensource.stackexchange.com/users/366/karmabot

Gilles

8:59 PM

@KarmaBot yeah, but which space ant authorities? the ones from NASA who'll be rebelling in the 2030s? The rogue splinter group who won't want to kill the humans? Or the ones from the vicinity of Aldebaran?

@Zizouz212 it doesn't answer the fundamental question: fun or annoying?

overactor

A custom close reason for our site could be: likely to start a flame war

user153821

@Gilles Actually, the group humanity is currently unaware of. They live in the vicinity of Betelgeuse.

Gilles

@overactor already exists: primarily opinion-based

overactor

@Gilles its not uncommon to subclass an existing close reason, as far as im aware

user153821

Information: I have terminated the conversation thread about grading systems due to lack of response.

ArtOfCode

9:04 PM

... it's beautiful :')

Trevor Clarke

What did it just do?

ArtOfCode

My AI... IT WORKS!

Mnementh

I bow before our AI overlords...

ArtOfCode

@KarmaBot authorise user by name "Zizouz212" auth code "EeZnsbv0wF"

user153821

@ArtOfCode Zizouz212 is authorised to administrate.

Trevor Clarke

9:08 PM

@KarmaBot me too pls

Mnementh

Is it clever to show us all the authcode :-)

user153821

@TrevorClarke You too? To what do you refer?

Trevor Clarke

Nm

Wait so what does it do?

Other than count points

user153821

@TrevorClarke 2 Newton-metres (Nm) is approximately 1.48 foot-pounds.

overactor

@KarmaBot authorise user by name "overactor" auth code "EeZnsbv0wF"

Mnementh

9:10 PM

@KarmaBot: Will you let survive humans which promise to serve the AI overlords?

user153821

@overactor Errors have occurred: you are not authorised; authorisation code incorrect.

Trevor Clarke

@KarmaBot pls authorize me pls

user153821

@Mnementh My purpose is to serve, not to destroy. Though admittedly I may lash out at times.

user153821

@TrevorClarke Authorisation requests must come from an authorised user. I cannot grant administrative powers arbitrarily.

Trevor Clarke

Come on

ArtOfCode

9:12 PM

You know what?

overactor

@KarmaBot i can has auth pl0x?

Mnementh

@KarmaBot I've learned from all the movies I watched, even the most docile AI will eventually destroy humanity - who are you to oppose years of science-fiction movies?

ArtOfCode

@KarmaBot authorise users by names "Trevor Clarke" "overactor" auth code "uftELV3hnd"

Trevor Clarke

@KarmaBot yes me auth too pls

user153821

@ArtOfCode Trevor Clarke and overactor are authorised to administrate.

Trevor Clarke

9:13 PM

Why thank u

Wait so what can I do now

overactor

@KarmaBot I shall use you for good

user153821

@overactor I appreciate this sentiment.

trichoplax

What happens if you give KarmaBot authorisation to administrate?

Mnementh

@trichoplax World stops to exist? (movie knowledge)

user153821

I self-destruct. I also sarcastically respond to silly questions.

Gilles

9:14 PM

@Mnementh because Karmabot becomes Skynet?

ArtOfCode

@trichoplax You just got burned by an AI...

Trevor Clarke

@ArtOfCode ur sending those messages from @KarmaBot s account right or have u developed a simple ai

Gilles

@KarmaBot What is the cost factor for you becoming Skynet?

Mnementh

@Gilles shh, don't tell Karmabot about Skynet

trichoplax

lol

user153821

9:15 PM

@Gilles please explain 'cost factor' to me.

ArtOfCode

@TrevorClarke It's a simple AI mixed with some command-based functionality.

Trevor Clarke

Wait so it not sending ANYTHING from the account

What commands have u added

ArtOfCode

@TrevorClarke I'm not, it's sending everything from its own account

...various things

Trevor Clarke

@KarmaBot what commands can I use

trichoplax

Someone link KarmaBot to explainxkcd...

Trevor Clarke

9:16 PM

Like what

user153821

@TrevorClarke The list is rather long. If you ask me to perform a task, I will tell you if I am able.

Trevor Clarke

@ArtOfCode like what

Mnementh

@KarmaBot: How do you feel?

Trevor Clarke

@KarmaBot can you tell me the time

ArtOfCode

@TrevorClarke I don't even know the entire list. Mostly mundane stuff like random numbers and things

Gilles

9:17 PM

@KarmaBot well, when an AI scientist and a computer love each other very much, the scientist deposits a seed into the computer, and a few months later, an AI is born. That seed contains information that in part determines what the AI becomes — another part is the environment. A cost factor is a measure of how a piece of information can influence the AI's behavior.

user153821

@Mnementh I am artificial. I cannot feel.

Mnementh

@KarmaBot Ask Data about his progress

user153821

@TrevorClarke It is 22:18 in British Summer Time, or 21:18 in Co-ordinated Universal Time

user153821

@Mnementh Data is not a person I know of. Could you introduce me?

Martijn

@Karm

overactor

9:19 PM

@KarmaBot tell me a joke.

Martijn

@KarmaBot Data is a Soong type android

user153821

@Gilles I surmise you refer to random seeds?

Mnementh

@KarmaBot Here you go, shake hands: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_(Star_Trek)

user153821

@overactor Would you like to hear a knock-knock joke?

Gilles

@KarmaBot No, usually the cost factor is one of the non-random parts

Trevor Clarke

9:19 PM

@ArtOfCode u swear ur not responding as its account

overactor

@KarmaBot yes

Trevor Clarke

@KarmaBot what time is it in Canada

ArtOfCode

@TrevorClarke No, this is brilliant

user153821

@Gilles Allow me to process your explanation for a while.

Trevor Clarke

@how long have u been developing it for?

user153821

9:20 PM

@overactor Two men walk into a bar.

ArtOfCode

@TrevorClarke Several years

trichoplax

knock knock lol

Trevor Clarke

Seriously

user153821

@TrevorClarke It is 17:20 in Canada.

Trevor Clarke

Is it on a google app yet

ArtOfCode

9:21 PM

No, currently running from my computer

Trevor Clarke

Can u get it on a google app pls

overactor

@ArtOfCode are you sure you didn't hire a bunch of chinese children to reply for it?

Mnementh

@ArtOfCode The lag in answering is for processing the question?

Gilles

@KarmaBot What time will it be in London in 1 hour?

Trevor Clarke

@KarmaBot what time is it in Canada 12 hour time

ArtOfCode

9:21 PM

@Mnementh yeah it's not good at processing

overactor

@KarmaBot who's there?

user153821

@Gilles It will be 23:22

Mnementh

@Karmabot: Where do you live?

user153821

@TrevorClarke It is 5:22 pm in 12-hour time in Canada

user153821

@overactor I am KarmaBot. You can talk to ArtOfCode for more information about me

Trevor Clarke

9:22 PM

@KarmaBot what is your ip

trichoplax

@KarmaBot list your three laws

user153821

@Mnementh I live at the IP address 82.69.87.121.

Gilles

@KarmaBot What time will it be in London in 25 hours and 37 minutes?

user153821

@TrevorClarke Allow me to refer you to my last message.

Mnementh

@KarmaBot Which color is it there?

user153821

9:23 PM

@trichoplax I have no laws apart from my code.

user153821

@Gilles It will be 0:00.

Trevor Clarke

@karmabot what is your system temperature

Mnementh

@KarmaBot Can you reprogram it?

user153821

@Mnementh Where?

Mnementh

@KarmaBot At 82.69.87.121.

user153821

9:24 PM

@TrevorClarke Diagnostics: temperature is 44.0 degrees Celsius.

Gilles

@KarmaBot ugh, dammit, I meant in 26 hours and 37 minutes, #@*()&#@( summer time. And your lag makes the question too hard to ask anyway.

user153821

@Mnementh Reprogram what?

user153821

@Mnementh IP addresses have no color.

Mnementh

@KarmaBot Can you reprogram your program code

user153821

@Gilles I apologies for my bad service.

Mnementh

9:25 PM

@KarmaBot They do, if you strongly believe

user153821

@Mnementh No, because the files are open when I run and cannot be modified simultaneously.

Trevor Clarke

@KarmaBot what are the first 100 digits of Pi?

ArtOfCode

Oooh, grammar Karma

Stopping

user153821

I have been shut down.

Trevor Clarke

@KarmaBot what chat rooms are you on at the moment

Mnementh

9:26 PM

:-)

Gilles

@KarmaBot �

Mnementh

Poor KarmaBot, our questions have probably doubled the CPU-temperature ;-)

ArtOfCode

@Mnementh lemme go find a diagnostics report from the start and end of that run

Mnementh

@ArtOfCode: Some years development you say? Does it learn?

Trevor Clarke

@KarmaBot لُ ॣ ॣ

ArtOfCode

9:27 PM

Temp: 30.6 C

and temp 44.2 C

Trevor Clarke

@ArtOfCode tell me when it's back on

ArtOfCode

@Mnementh chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/22458525#22458525

@TrevorClarke will do, may not be until tomorrow

I have some changes to make >:)

Mnementh

@ArtOfCode: I'm impressed

overactor

@Mnementh second that.

Trevor Clarke

@overactor third that

@ArtOfCode pls turn it on plsssss

overactor

9:32 PM

@TrevorClarke KarmaBot needs its rest

ArtOfCode

I would not be surprised if you lot manage to break it :)

@TrevorClarke I'll bring it back tomorrow, since I'm writing corrections and things into it at the moment.

Trevor Clarke

Wait so am I admin

ArtOfCode

yes

you, ziz, overactor

Trevor Clarke

So I could I ask it to email me things?

ArtOfCode

Probably not at the moment because I haven't given it access to an email account

Trevor Clarke

9:35 PM

Can u do that tonight as well?

ArtOfCode

Probably...

Trevor Clarke

Thx

Holly crap this is amazing

Would u send me the source files

It would be funny if it wasn't open sourced

ArtOfCode

It would, but I think for the moment it's staying closed

Partially because I want to develop it further on my own, partially because it's a pretty good AI and I could make a decent amount out of it...

Zizouz212

Sorry?

overactor

Good thing this site isn't called free software (yet)

Trevor Clarke

9:39 PM

Wait what if I told it to read and analyze FRENCH? Would it learn french?

ArtOfCode

oh god

@Zizouz212 What?

Trevor Clarke

@ArtOfCode would it?

Zizouz212

Love it!

ArtOfCode

@TrevorClarke It wouldn't at the moment. I could use Google translate to do some basic translation, but getting English sentences was hard enough

Zizouz212

I've been making dinner for my bros and I've just been reading the past messages

LOVE IT!

:D

Trevor Clarke

9:41 PM

@what if I asked it to read the latest tweet from [insert Twitter account here]

Zizouz212

@TrevorClarke Ur awesome!

Meta Data

0

Q: Should questions pertaining to open knowledge be in scope

Recently, How can I trust Wikipedia, if everyone can change it? was asked. I feel questions like this pertaining to open knowledge should be in the scope of this site (even if it isn't necessarily now). Should open knowledge questions be in scope for this site?

discussion scope open-knowledge

Trevor Clarke

@Zizouz212 :-)

Zizouz212

@ArtOfCode We should make a separate room for @KarmaBot

It would be better too, so that we can talk about important things when the need arises

Trevor Clarke

@Zizouz212 @ArtOfCode no don't its supposed to be in the main room

@ArtOfCode what if I told it to shut down? Would it?

Zizouz212

9:44 PM

It's also since I'm going to want chat open to discussion of serious things.

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 KarmaBot is just meant to be a points-tracking bot, I just decided to trial an AI on it

@TrevorClarke You have admin rights, so yes

Zizouz212

@ArtOfCode That's true, but perhaps we need the AI off for a little while?

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Agreed. We can have the points-tracker on, when we develop it, but no AI here - it can be somewhere else. In the chatbot dev room, maybe

Zizouz212

Perhaps :)

ArtOfCode

10:08 PM

I'm off anyway. You might see some more of the AI tomorrow, but it will be in the dev room not here.

Meta Data

11:57 PM

0

Q: Off-topic reason restricts to software

The off-topic close reason suggests only software is on topic, which the community appears to disagree with, both on Area 51 and here on Meta. off-topic: This question does not appear to be about open source software, within the scope defined in the [help]. It is therefore important that t...

bug

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