The Assembly - 2014-10-09

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3:06 AM

@joshpetrie so... Hyperbole aside, I have an honest question if you're willing to answer it: why do you want a site for Vi[m]?

user4704

Personally, I'd visit a vim site because I think that SO is a useless mess of bad questions where good/interesting stuff gets lost and only visible to the subset of users who aggressively check tag views (thus, I never ask vim questions there since #vim is faster). Further, I fall into the camp that thinks "it's totally fine to cover some of vim on SO, some of vim on SU, some of vim on Unix" is silly and bad.

user4704

I wasn't particularly keen on this proposal -- I didn't even know it existed until it was 100% committed, since I'd given up on vim/emacs proposals after several in a row got shot down years ago. But again, for the record/posterity, my disgust here does not stem from "wanting a vim site," it stems from the way in this which both the vim and emacs proposals were handled, and the response (lack thereof) from SE on the issue.

I agree with all of the above.

@JoshPetrie Wanting a separate site because [vim] is full of trash is a non-starter. Either the site will fail to gain traction (waste of our time) or it'll eventually attract just as much crap - but with fewer people available to help deal with it.

I'm perfectly fine asking my vim questions on AU/Unix and maybe even SU, but I think the way this proposal has been handled, especially seeing emacs was allowed to proceed, to be... I lack the words to describe. I guess the answers to Robert's post sum it up. You guys have 0 evidence that having a site for vim would cause any harm, especially because you let emacs do it. This whole thing reeks of "we let emacs go because we like emacs, not because we thought the proposal could make it" .

user4704

3:14 AM

@Shog9 [vim] is not full of trash, SO is full of trash.

Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard (also called the Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard or the Parable of the Generous Employer) is a parable of Jesus which appears in the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament. According to Matthew 20:1–16 Jesus says that any "laborer" who accepts the invitation to the work in the vineyard (said by Jesus to represent the Kingdom of Heaven), no matter how late in the day, will receive an equal reward with those who have been faithful the longest. == Text == For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in...

Arguing that Emacs got something is also a dead end. Vim didn't get shut down because Emacs wasn't.

user4704

I see your standpoint, but if that is true and vim remains closed, why is emacs in beta?

exactly.

@JoshPetrie are you asking about Vim, or about Emacs?

user4704

Both.

3:16 AM

They're completely separate.

that... isn't really true.

@Seth pretty sure it is

user4704

vim met it's commitments, per Area 51's guidelines, and yet was shut down for the vague reason of "emacs has more of an ecosystem"

You haven't given us a good reason for closing vim and letting emacs go.

Therefor no difference.

user4704

How is that relevant if they are "completely separate?" The proposal should have a chance to stand on its own the way it earned.

3:17 AM

The whole thing reeks of favouritism.

Emacs-as-a-site was pretty controversial, even internally. We eventually decided to give them a try and see what they could do. Jon spent a fairly significant amount of time carefully monitoring the site to see if it could be folded back into SO / divided among other graduated sites; eventually, we decided it wasn't feasible to do so and opened it up to the public.

That is the story of Emacs.SE

(even though I'm fairly hopeful, I think, that it isn't)

Vim did not figure into it.

user4704

So shut it down.

@Shog9 the problem is you didn't give us the same chance.

You closed vim for the same reasons you almost closed emacs.

but you didn't close emacs.

and you seem to be saying it is working.

3:19 AM

@Seth well, the problem as I understand it is that we didn't give it a chance at all - hence my question:

13 mins ago, by Shog9

@joshpetrie so... Hyperbole aside, I have an honest question if you're willing to answer it: why do you want a site for Vi[m]?

user4704

That's not hyperbole, that is an appeal to the apparent process by which Area 51 proposals/sites are supposed to run.

Just because a different site on a different topic with a different audience did well, does not mean the same would apply to this one.

exactly. You are treating two very similar topics differently because.. why?

WHY?

There was a site for Judaism long before there was one for Christianity, which existed well before the site for Islam which chugged along for a long, long time before Hinduism and Buddhism

That is the question.

user4704

3:20 AM

@Shog9 Yes, precisely, so just because emacs didn't do well does not mean vim should be closed unilaterally with no chance

Quite.

So why do you keep bringing up Emacs?

@Shog9 no it doesn't, but what are you closing it on?

"We don't think it will work as well as emacs".. uhh..

user4704

Because emacs was cited in the close reason for vim

@JoshPetrie because we knew y'all would bring it up.

user4704

Because the emacs proposal serves as a precedent for how far to bend the "would it drain uses from SO" rule on Area 51.

3:22 AM

So Robert attempted to head that off by noting that they're not really comparable.

Again, you haven't given us a good reason for closing it.

@Shog9 nothing against Robert but he did a terrible job.

he did the opposite, actually.

@Seth I don't think there is a good reason. Not one you'd be happy with, at any rate. You clearly want the site - I don't think it has legs. That's a pretty big gulf there. Which is why I'm asking, why do you want such a site?

As I noted elsewhere, we already have a multitude of sites where just about any Vim question you might think of can be asked.

user4704

That's not really addressing the issue though.

If you don't like SO, or you're just not a programmer, pick the OS you're using and ask there.

want is a pretty subjective word here. I don't care terribly much if there is a site or not. The point is you gave another (very) similar site a chance but then unilaterally closed ours because.. "reasons" you say. I had hopes the site would succeed. Right now Vim questions are terribly scattered over the network and I thought this would be a good place to learn.

Bug you denied.. because... Because?

Because is a bad reason, as my Mother always told me.

user4704

3:25 AM

You also have a multitude of sites where emacs is appropriate, but what about emacs "has an ecosystem of questions not suitable to Stack Overflow" that does not also apply to vim?

@JoshPetrie that's our impression.

Vim is at face value quite simple, but any user who scratches below the surface will find it is surprisingly complicated:
- multiple 'skins' (gvim, vi-compat, etc.)
- multiple OS's (win, linux, aix, mac, etc.)
- multiple purposes (programming, documents, sysadmin, scripting, even binary files)
- multiple plugins (syntax, compile, mail, etc.)
- multiple demographics (novices, experts, super-users)
- multiple technologies (regex, own language, etc.)

user4704

Especially given that isn't proven out by the actual questions on emacs.

If you believe otherwise, I'd love to hear it.

@Shog9 - each of those 'multiples' spans multiple SE sites.

3:26 AM

@Shog9 So you closed because.. "our impression"? Even after we showed you the Community wanted to try?

vim is scattered to the wind, and would be good to have centralized with one confluence of experts and users.

^

user4704

@Shog9 Your impression based on what measurable data? Certainly not the emacs site, which basically only consists of questions from SO!

@rolfl all of that applies to... many editors. Off the top of my head, Eclipse, Visual Studio and SciTE all fit the same bill. Heck, the ancient DOS SETEdit handled a good bit of that.

You ask: I have an honest question if you're willing to answer it: why do you want a site for Vi[m]? ... that's my answer ;-)

3:27 AM

Even if you just gave me a site with all the vim tags across the network tied in I would be happy.

But this will eternally have left a bad taste in my mouth.

@rolfl are there centralized vim experts?

are you a vim expert?

@Shog9 exactly. So why emacs and not us?

You have no answer!

Except "our impression".

@Seth really don't care about Emacs.

No, becaise there's no vim.se (but there is vim.irc ...).

user4704

You can s/vim/emacs to any of these retorts and have the same problem

3:28 AM

@Shog9 No, but lke many, I have used it for years and know it's potential.

user4704

So there must be some difference, and I want to know what that difference is.

@Shog9 Go back to "no answer".

@rolfl what do you use it for?

@JoshPetrie precisely.

user4704

Because right now it seems like it's "because somebody at SE didn't want a vim site"

3:29 AM

@Seth not even willing to try answering. Because I don't care. About Emacs. Not even a little bit.

user4704

And that is a tragedy beyond recovery for me.

@Shog9 Currently mostly building clusters of servers across massive datacenters.

@JoshPetrie now, that's not really fair. No one at SE wanted a Vim site.

@Shog9 Then you aren't ever going to resolve this issue, because emacs is very much part of it.

It's installed by default on the 1000's of them.

3:29 AM

that's why I'm here asking y'all why you want one

user4704

I am starting not to much care about "fair" since I'm not seeing much evidence of SE operating that way itself, in good faith.

yup.

@rolfl and you wouldn't prefer to ask about it on Server Fault?

@Shog9 - if I am honest, I am comfortable with my vi 'skills' to not need much of a se site for it, but not expert enough to be an answer either.... I've been using vi/vim for... 22 years, and know what I like it for.

@Shog9 The same reason the emacs users wanted one doesn't apply to us? Wow, with that mindset you certainly aren't going to go anywhere.

3:31 AM

@Shog9 No, I would not go to server fault.

user4704

What I want is simple: don't play favorites. Both proposals have their set of flaws and advantages (effectively the same sets). So treat them the same. open vim or close emacs, one or the other.

@rolfl I'm still confused then. What would you do on a Vim site?

user4704

If given the same objective inputs you don't arrive at the same objective output your system is biased and flawed.

@JoshPetrie no. And I'm done with that line of reasoning. I had quite enough of it listening to the Atheism folks demanding a site after we launched Christianity. It's not helping your case, it's just convincing me that you care nothing for Vim as a site or a topic, you're just arguing for empty principles.

@Shog9 The "rolfl-20-years-ago" would not know whether to look for how to build a SQL syntax highlighter for transact-sql on server fault, dba, SO, or ..... unix&linux

he would want a vim.se

3:33 AM

@rolfl so, now we're getting somewhere: why?

because, for a start, I am not a user of many of those sites, so I would not know where to start.

it's not a programming question.

user4704

I cannot believe you think the principle of objectivity is flawed.

user4704

That is shocking

it's not a database question.

it's a vim question.

@JoshPetrie and now you're putting words in my mouth. I'm here because I'm pragmatic and if there's a real need for a site I'll support it 100% even if it's a topic I care nothing for. You're here to argue. Either say something constructive, or leave.

3:34 AM

So it's not an editor configuration question you could ask on SU either?

@Shog9 - here's a recent example, I had to re-indent a hundred or so files that were tab-indented.... I knew it was possible to do it 1-file-at-a-time with "set expandtab .. set ts-4, retab" in vim... but, how to do it for 100 files in a folder?

I ended up writing a perl script... but, regardless, where would I ave asked that?

See, you can't answer our questions. All you can say is "you don't really want a vim site". We just showed you we did and you closed it because you say it isn't any different from SO. How is emacs different from SO? We showed you we had the community and the support and the questions. What more do you need?

user4704

Okay, so what "empty principles" do you think I'm arguing for? Because I am under the position I am arguing for an objective handling of these proposals and I'd like to know how I am not communicating that.

(FWIW I'm not familiar with the history of atheism proposals, but that doesn't sound like the same thing to me)

@rolfl Interesting question. I would've probably asked that on Stack Overflow, but that's because I'm comfortable there and I know indentation is a common task. If you were unfamiliar with the entire network, chances are a search for "vim reindent multiple files" would turn up SO results, and lead you in that direction as well.

You don't think this would've ended well for you?

3:37 AM

I for one would not be comfortable asking that on SO.

@Seth ok, so, why?

It's not a programming question at all.

it's maybe a super-user?

reindentation is a common task for programmers. Vim is a common tool for programmers. Unless you said "this is not a programming question", I'd be fooled.

but, given the machines were all ubuntu....

exactly what rolfl said. Not a programming question

3:39 AM

16

Q: Indenting in VIM with all the files in Folder

I have a folder containing hundreds of TTL (TeraTermLanguage) files. Now I wanted indent all these files. I have created teraterm.vim for indentation and I open a file using VIM and do "gg=G" and whole file gets indented properly. But is there any way, where I can indent all the files in fol...

vim indentation

first Google result

I've seen enough of SO to know I do not want to walk the border of on-topic on that site.

<insert intensifier here>, I must admit SO sometimes even scares me!

@Seth ok, that's fair - SO can be scary.

user4704

I would still like to know what "empty principles" I appear to be arguing for. :| and I'd still like answers to the actual questions I'm asking, which I'm getting elsewhere at the moment so pipe down until you're ready

and not just "scary" in a "get over it way". Scary for a reason.

0

Q: Linux emulate arrows vim-like manner

I use gvim. Also vifm, vimperator, zathura ans terminal in vi mode. Is there any way to map CTRL+H,J,K,L to arrow key presses to make vim-like Linux. I want to work in all application in vim-like manner and don't carry about config files.

user4704

3:41 AM

...wow.

Again (for the bagillionth time) you have given us zero good reason for closing the proposal and you refuse to give us a good answer.

yep.

I don't want to deal with that.

@rolfl that's a bit sketchy, but I see your point - you think that'd be allowed on a vi[m]-only site?

Yes... or perhaps a more general 'editors'? Not sure.

You asked if I can see a reason for a site, I can.... I just don't know how to express it succintly.

@rolfl so take your time.

user4704

What about the proposal itself is not a reason people want the site?

3:43 AM

I really wanted to join and help form a community around this and learn a lot in the process, but you closed it while you let an almost duplicate community go on.. for the same reasons!

@shog - this is an interesting read: stackoverflow.com/search?tab=newest&q=[vim]%20closed%3ayes

0

Q: Emulate arrows in a vim-like manner in Linux

I use gVim. Also vifm, vimperator, zathura and Terminal in vi mode. Is there any way to map Ctrl+H,J,K,L to arrow key presses to make vim-like Linux? I want to work in all applications in vim-like manner and don't care about config files.

@JoshPetrie the proposal clearly indicates that lots of folks think they want a SE site on which they can ask Vi[m] questions. It doesn't indicate why they can't use one of the many sites where that's already an option. Most of the proposals closed in commitment are closed because they do not appear to be viable - covering a topic that's already a subset of a larger topic is pretty damning.

I don't want to have to troll 5 sites to ask and answer and learn about vim.

@Seth why would you need to?

3:45 AM

Pick one and trawl it until it bleeds

I'm sorry, but that is a stupid question.

user4704

I think, as I stated originally, that having to look at multiple sites to potentially post on/search on is a problem.

@rolfl yeah, we looked at that... Including deleted questions, the all-time close rate is about 8%

which is not high

The best argument for splitting off a topic is that there's no single site where the entirety of it is already welcomed.

The next best argument is that there's a unique audience that isn't welcomed on any existing site.

user4704

Which seems to be true of vim and emacs both. The first point at least.

and where does emacs fit into that? Oh, I forgot, emacs doesn't matter at all.

3:49 AM

Be careful though, because there's a difference - perhaps subtle - between a topic that has no home, and a topic that's at home everywhere.

user4704

Right, and this is where there is a fundamental divide.

user4704

Whether you think the latter (a home everywhere) is good or bad for that topic.

a home everywhere is good. But even if you disagree, it doesn't matter - there are no provisions, even if a site specifically for a widely-welcomed topic, to force it off of all other sites.

oh, now we're forcing it off of other sites.

You can't ask Ubuntu questions on Super User anymore! Nor Unix & Linux!

@Seth no, you're not. You can't if you wanted to, but of course you don't really even want to.

1

Q: How to uninstall all related packages to a specific one? / Ubuntu

Recently I asked to my hosting provider to reload the OS to Ubuntu 12.04 64 bit minimal assuming minimal would have the minimum required packages installed, but I realized that mysql was installed so, as I don't need it, I want to uninstall all packages related to it. What I did was: $ sudo ap...

ubuntu mysql uninstall

lot changed in the past 10 hours

3:52 AM

Ubuntu moved to their own site because they wanted to deal with posting bug reports every other day

Ubuntu moved to their own site because we had an entire organized Community moving it.

I haven't seen anyone else manage that.

Point is, "oh no, this topic is welcomed everywhere - I can't look just one place!" isn't a good argument for the creation of yet another place

Fortunately, the charging one has been solved now that we've all standardized on mini-USB. Or is it micro-USB? Shit.

and tbh I think it was good in the long run, I don't think U&L would want to deal with some of our questions.

@Shog9 you just said that...

so software recs should be closed because SU and AU allow them?

SU does not allow them

oh. When did that change?

3:54 AM

@Seth no, I said it's not a possibility. If it was, then there's some slim hope that creating yet another site would unify the information. But it's not. So that argument is a non-starter.

@Seth SU stopped allowing for recommendations after the first year. And then it keeps chipping away at those that slipped through.

well you really need to blacklist that tag then (maybe you already did?)

It would have made sense to kill the Emacs proposal before it got to private or even public beta. The problem here is really that they didn't. Having let Emacs get to public beta, they've acknowledged that an editor-specific proposal has a good chance of succeeding, but then they went and aborted the vim proposal, which is topically analogous and had at least as much support. — Kevin 13 mins ago

software-recs is used on SU to find things to close. Eventually it'll be killed off

again, you have an answer?

user4704

@Seth This.

3:57 AM

@Shog9 I've reread that message 3 times and it still looks like you are saying we want to push vim questions of SO.

@Seth nope.

As I said, there are two good reasons to launch a new site for a topic that's already being handled by an existing site

"there are too many sites where it's being handled" isn't one of the two.

user4704

Then can you explain the emacs site?

well I'm in this room every day, if you ever decide to answer our concerns go ahead and post it here or on the Area 51 post, I'll see it.

user4704

I am still struggling to understand the difference.

For now I've got a life to attend to.

4:00 AM

'nite

@Shog9 - if I scan queries like: [vim] closed:yes duplicate:no on SO, SF, SU, ASkUbuntu, there are a number of questions that would be good for a general vim site.

Then, you say: The best argument for splitting off a topic is that there's no single site where the entirety of it is already welcomed.

@rolfl make a list

it is clear that there's no single site where the entirety of it is already welcome for [tag:vim].

user4704

@Seth Aye, me too.

@Shog9 Here, or somewhee else?

4:04 AM

@rolfl area51 would be a good place

K, will do.

thanks

I appreciate y'all taking the time to help me understand this

FWIW I wanted to come back and apologize for getting somewhat emotional about this. I've had a bad day and this whole thing seemed so absurd I couldn't hold it back anymore. It still seems absurd, but that isn't an excuse for even starting to get emotional. Have a good night all.

4:50 AM

@Shog9 DOme: discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/a/18196/97655

0

A: Closing the Vi/Vim Proposal

@shog9 suggested I put together a list of questions scattered around SE that would have been successful on a vim.se site. Part of the motivation for this is that it has been suggested: The best argument for splitting off a topic is that there's no single site where the entirety of it is alrea...

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