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5:50 AM
@tohecz ok, thats true. Now we have it as a comment and the post stays closed. I think that's right as it is.
@egreg thanks for the link.
@PauloCereda Thanks for the update. When is the release party? And more important, where?
 
 
2 hours later…
7:57 AM
@egreg I've raised both of your issues on the team list: will report back when I get something!
 
8:14 AM
@1010011010 I think I've managed to fix the bug, so I'll upload the new version to CTAN and update my answer. I'm glad you like the package :-)
 
8:29 AM
@JosephWright yes, no point listing every command in a single question, otherwise we just answer that and close the site...
@Manuel you can do that but then (as we see now) users ask how to access it...
@LaRiFaRi wait for service pack 1 :-)
 
8:59 AM
@DavidCarlisle Cool
@DavidCarlisle We seem to have a consensus
 
9:14 AM
@DavidCarlisle The service pack is a party? Cool! That's innovative.
In case I am crying out "bug" to fast (as I really like to do :-) ) you may want to take a look on this here: tex.stackexchange.com/a/203850
for those who are keen in tikz-cd
 
@LaRiFaRi I believe this has already appeared.
 
ah, ok. perfect
@egreg thanks. Than I will leave my answer and search for existing reports
@egreg I do not think it's tex.stackexchange.com/a/170636
because the babel package itself does not cause problems here
 
@LaRiFaRi Yes, you're right: the problem is the babel library of TikZ.
 
9:38 AM
Hello, I just zapped this question, but then I realized that it can be easily reworded to be a good question listing the pros and the cons of one or the other. Any opinions?
2
Q: Large bibtex database

Vikas RawalIs it a good idea to maintain a single large bibtex database or should one split it into multiple files? I have compiled a very large India-specific database (over 100,000 records) from various sources. Should one keep it as a single file or split it up? What is the best practice?

 
@tohecz yes seems like it could be a good qn, there probably are not that many 100K record bibtex databases he can look to as examples, so asking for any experience seems reasonable
 
@DavidCarlisle I'll go on an reword it, I hope it's fine
 
@tohecz it's tagged bibtex and biblatex, might require different answers (not sure how either copes with big files these days:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle well, that could be a part of the question, still not making it too broad I think.
@DavidCarlisle ping (Q edited)
 
9:53 AM
@tohecz voted
 
10:09 AM
@PaulGessler Thank you for the kind words. :) I'm still not sure about the impact of conditionals, so it will be a nice experience. :)
@LaRiFaRi I need the manual. :)
 
10:29 AM
@PauloCereda send me final chapters when you have them! I am a better lector than programmer
 
@LaRiFaRi I am the other way around. :P
 
@PauloCereda "Sie haben Post!"
 
@LaRiFaRi ooh das e-mail ist sehr gut!
 
Haha, for Swiss, perfect, in German it would be die E-Mail
 
@LaRiFaRi Wow, I wrote totally out of luck! :)
 
10:41 AM
really? Not bad. Then it was not the first time you've seen German I guess
 
@JosephWright I saw your foreword in Marc van Dongen's book!
 
@egreg you should do a Meta for the problem of your badge counters :- )
kind of discriminating (and a bit swanky)
 
@LaRiFaRi :)
 
@LaRiFaRi: you got mail. :)
 
ctrl+- ctrl+- in my firefox makes 4-digit-badge-counter visible...
 
10:52 AM
@LaRiFaRi Raised
 
"As it stands, it shows 1609 bronze badges less than I actually have" and 16 more than is deserved
 
user image
3
@egreg: ^^ :)
 
@DavidCarlisle /full volume pernacchio
@DavidCarlisle Maybe you'll learn Italian, one day. ;-)
 
@David: I can't wait to see who's gonna get the gold badge first. :)
@egreg: I will have a section in the manual with hic sunt anates. :)
 
11:17 AM
Good maen ;-)
 
@egreg so difficult to pick up these expressions
 
11:36 AM
@ChristianHupfer Hallo!
 
@PauloCereda: How are you?
 
@ChristianHupfer I'm fine, thanks. :) And you?
 
@PauloCereda: Tired, too much time on computer, preparing this meeting... organzing the catering which my school refuses to do.... Public Relation is a term they never heard of ;-)
 
@ChristianHupfer oh.
 
@PauloCereda: No coffee, no cookies, no apple/orange juice water, no brezels ... it's a mess. I will prepare the coffee tomorrow, having an apron: "Kiss the cook" :D
 
11:41 AM
@ChristianHupfer that's something I like here in Paris: they don't mind spending significant amount of money on good food. After all, having guests feel good at the place is investment worth some permilles of the lab budget I think.
 
@tohecz: Of course... It's the only school I know that behaves like this ...
 
@ChristianHupfer \kiss\the\expandafter\cook\relax
 
@PauloCereda: error: \relax -- unknown command sequence :-P
2
 
@ChristianHupfer I can tell you it's not the only one like that ;)
 
@PauloCereda \kiss isn't a latex command, I suspect you meant \kill, which is.
6
 
11:52 AM
@DavidCarlisle LOL
 
@DavidCarlisle: Beat me, but \cook isn't a latex command, is it? ;-)
 
12:10 PM
@ChristianHupfer \def\cook{\immediate\write18{sudo make me a toast}}
 
@tohecz: That does not count :-P
 
@tohecz Too bad if the current user is not in the sudoers list. :)
Good old times when sudo was not configured for users. :)
 
Hi all. Do you know why the test proposed by Symbol 1 in answer to my question here tex.stackexchange.com/questions/202877/… seams to fail?
Maybe I should ask a question about how to become a good TeX user :(
 
@egreg: I'm ressurrecting our Trello board and found a card on adding a full parameter to frontespizio. Should I implement it?
 
@PauloCereda I can confirm arara v4.0 works if there's a single quote immediately before a double quote :-)
% arara: datatooltk: {
% arara: --> output: customer.dbtex,
% arara: --> sqldb: samples,
% arara: --> sqluser: sampleuser,
% arara: --> sql: "SELECT title, surname, address1, address2, town, county, countries.name AS country, postcode FROM people, countries WHERE people.country = countries.code AND surname='Parrot'"}
 
12:20 PM
@NicolaTalbot Really?! That's awesome!
 
@PauloCereda If you please. ;-)
 
@egreg My pleasure. :) Just to be sure: it's about the front page generation, right? :)
@NicolaTalbot Try breaking the last line as well, I think it should work. :)
(I did a pretty good job on my multiline directive algorithm) :)
 
@PauloCereda I believe that the directive frontespizio should not do the full process, but it should just compile the -frn file. Not a big deal, though.
 
@egreg Got it. :) It's the frn part plus the dvips one as well, right?
 
@PauloCereda Yay! I think that's all my issues/feature requests fixed :-)
 
12:24 PM
@PauloCereda Yes, but this requires knowing the engine used for the main file. So maybe it's not a good idea.
 
@egreg Oh I see.
@egreg: I think it's still doable since the user can specify the engine. :)
@NicolaTalbot: I think you are, by far, the top advocate of arara (more than Chris, LaRiFaRi and Marco). :)
 
@PauloCereda arara's cool :-)
 
@NicolaTalbot You guys make it become cool. :)
@egreg: done. :) Without any parameters (% arara: frontespizio):
[DR] (Frontespizio) The frontispiece
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Authors: Francesco Endrici, Enrico Gregorio, Paulo Cereda
About to run: [ pdflatex, teste-frn ]
with frontespizio: { engine: latex }:
[DR] (Frontespizio) The frontispiece
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Authors: Francesco Endrici, Enrico Gregorio, Paulo Cereda
About to run: [ latex, teste-frn ]

[DR] (Frontespizio) The DVIPS program
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Authors: Francesco Endrici, Enrico Gregorio, Paulo Cereda
About to run: [ dvips, -o, teste-frn.eps, teste-frn ]
and with full: true, everything is processed. :)
And as a bonus, % arara: frontespizio: { engine: potatotex }:
I have spotted an error in rule 'frontespizio' located at
'/home/paulo/Arara/rules'. I could not evaluate the flag
expression of one of the arguments. This part is quite tricky,
since it involves aspects of the underlying expression language.
I will do my best to help you in any way I can. There are more
details available on this exception:

DETAILS ---------------------------------------------------------
[Error: throwError('The provided engine is not valid.'): The
provided engine is not valid.]
potatotex FTW.
 
1:38 PM
There's something I don't like about these two tables :-(
 
@tohecz Vertical lines! /shakes fist
Actually, horizontal lines too! /keeps shaking fist
 
@PauloCereda well, can you imagine that table without vertical lines?
 
@tohecz Perhaps the data representation could be in other format. :)
 
where do pgfpages@box@2 and pgfpages@box@3 come from ?
 
@PauloCereda any ideas? because I'm lost with ideas here. Remember that it's for a journal, so I don't quite have many options w.r.t. colours and stuff
 
1:43 PM
@tohecz I'm trying to find the name, I always forget. :) Just a minute. :)
 
@greendiod I suppose that they store logical pages 2 and 3 on the physical page, but I can be wrong
 
From the name, it sounds like it but I dn't understand something in this line \ifvoid\csname pgfpages@box@2\endcsname\pgfpagesshipoutlogicalpage{5}\vbox{}\fi
It's not working as intended
 
@greendiod neither do I, sorry
 
@tohecz it's all right.
 
@PauloCereda and after all, there's the 2nd table: lines are (and need to be) ordered by b first. But isn't it ridiculous to have the b column before the a?
 
1:56 PM
What is the meaning of expandafter?
 
@tohecz: I was thinking the first table could be represented in terms of a binary plot, but there is a third element in there. :) Maybe a Hinton plot, but I think it might be a misuse (an people won't probably understand). What if you replace 1's by darker gray and 0's by lighter gray, while * is white? Then a nice caption might suffice.
@tohecz: the second table, perhaps, you could remove the horizontal line and add some vertical space to indicate it's another block. Or perhaps with a dashed line instead of a solid one.
 
I saw a similar question here tex.stackexchange.com/questions/53505/… which uses \expandafter
 
@SeanAllred Thanks, I'm going to try to understand it as I'm not so familiar with TeX hacking ..
 
@greendiod You and me, both :)
 
1:59 PM
@SeanAllred :)
 
@PauloCereda well, I do like my horizontal lines like this :)
 
@tohecz <3
 
@PauloCereda how do you make a tableau with square cells, as easily as possible?
 
@tohecz Good question. :) You once wrote me a code that creates a table with equal columns, I think that might help, after all the code is ready. :) Oh and there's ctan.org/pkg/eqparbox and ctan.org/pkg/tabstackengine. :)
 
@PauloCereda or use picture mode :)
 
2:06 PM
@tohecz David would be proud. :)
 
9
A: how to create new symbol like shown in figure

egregA version lighter than using TikZ: \documentclass{article} \usepackage{pict2e} \DeclareRobustCommand{\kumarsymbol}{% \begingroup\setlength{\unitlength}{\fontcharht\font`A}% \begin{picture}(.5,1) \roundcap \put(0,1){\line(2,-1){.25}} \put(.25,.875){\line(0,-1){.75}} \put(.25,.125){\l...

 
@egreg Let's see if @David will try to top TikZ. :)
 
2:25 PM
@egreg any ideas on the table, please?
 
@tohecz Sorry, I wasn't following. The first column in the upper table should not participate to centering.
 
@egreg sounds quite right, yeah
 
@tohecz Use @{}r for the first column and then add \hspace*{\dimen0} before \begin{tabular}, having previously set \settowidth{\dimen0}{$b=1$}
 
@egreg you mean in order to center the table? I think that an extra column with `\phantom{$b=1}$ is enough ;)
 
@tohecz That will most likely cause an overfull box
 
2:32 PM
@egreg not quite :) (remember that the caption is padded in amsart)
 
@tohecz Pure luck
 
@egreg and as well, if this caused an overfull, then the table cannot be centered, because even b=1 would stick out, wouldn't it?
 
@tohecz That's unimportant
 
@egreg really? You would have text getting out of the frame?
 
@tohecz Nobody would notice
 
2:39 PM
@egreg but depending on how tight the pages are, it might be a problem (my last work was an a5 booklet and the margins were really small)
so I think I managed to tame the first table. Now about the 2nd one :-/
 
@tohecz A few points in the left margin with much white space around is hardly noticeable, the attention is to the table; of course it can become noticeable and in this case a different solution should be found. For instance $b$ and $a/b$ in a row above the table.
@tohecz They should have the same width; remove left and right padding
 
@egreg you mean the two parts of the 2nd table? I'm actually really unhappy about the last row needing to be longer :(
 
2:54 PM
@tohecz That's why the two tables should have the same width.
 
@egreg yep, probably yes
and do you agree on centering $\gamma(\beta)$ only w.r.t. the digits and not the whole cell?
 
THanks @SeanAllred I'm pretty lost now! ;)
 
3:24 PM
@tohecz No idea.
 
4:01 PM
@DavidCarlisle While I was groping blindly for an answer to the red-blue noun-verb permutation question, you had the solution right at your fingertips. Amazing!
 
4:23 PM
@AndrewCashner yes well I've written the occasional latex loop before:-)
 
Hello everyone! I have made some improvements to the moderncv banking style, and I would like to make them public. But being not very experienced in LaTeX matters, I would be happy if someone could give a look beforehand, and tell me if something in my code is embarrassingly stupid. Any takers?
 
@greendiod ;)
 
4:48 PM
Good maen
@Nicolas: I have not looked into the moderncv class/style file, but is there a license? Are you allowed to do changes to it and publish it?
 
@ChristianHupfer anything that gets into texlive has an open licence (lppl here)
 
@ChristianHupfer As David said, it's LPPL and on launchpad. Plus, I did not even change the core, I just load their banking style and change things around.
 
@DavidCarlisle: Ok, I forgot that's it on TeXLive. I never used it so far
 
 
1 hour later…
6:01 PM
Recognizing handwritten formulae, is this possible in any kind? Seems to be impossible to me.
 
@Johannes_B detexify?
 
@TorbjørnT. Well, this works at least for single characters/symbols. Thanks.
@TorbjørnT. But whole formulas?
 
Not directly LaTeX-related though.
@Johannes_B In Windows, with the Inlage-editor, you can use the Math Input Panel it seems: youtube.com/watch?v=8ZorOCyBgX8
 
@TorbjørnT. Wow, wow, i didn't know this is possible. Seems i've been stuck in time a little bit.
 
6:36 PM
@Johannes_B AFAIK ipad has something like that too
 
@PauloCereda What software did you use to set alpha channels? GIMP? ImageMagick?
For that logo earlier...
 
@tohecz @TorbjørnT. Wow, how could i miss stuff like that?
 
anyways, 9pm, gotta go home, see you later
 
6:54 PM
@tohecz See you
Have a nice evening
 
7:13 PM
@Johannes_B Actually looks awesome. I would star, but it kind of doesn't seem relevant in relation to TeX. :-(
 
@1010011010 It is not, but still. I wouldn't have been able to read parts of that.
@ChristianHupfer I am sorry, but this makes me laugh every time. img01.lachschon.de/images/74873_deutschmeister.jpg
 
@1010011010 I use GIMP. :)
 
7:29 PM
@Johannes_B: Deutschmeister San was not very good in translation ;-) 50 runde Sofas = 50 Kugellager :D :D :D
 
7:46 PM
@ChristianHupfer I can see the guy in my head: Was will der? o.O
@ChristianHupfer If you are interested -> das kleine lesebuch fürs klo. Lot's of funny stuff in there.
 
This is now active:
289
Q: New three-tiered badge idea: Explainer -> Refiner -> Illuminator

Tim PostThe difference between a poor or meh question and a stellar question can often simply be someone understanding it and providing it a great answer. I can't begin to count the number of times I've justified re-opening a question as a moderator by saying: Look at the answer it got, though. This ...

Strange though that the awarded silver Refiner badge didn't come with an automatic awarding of the bronze Explainer badge...
 
@Werner I already got one in Math.SE, where editing questions is almost always necessary.
 
@egreg Sorry they didn't agree with your disinterest in the proposal.
 
@Werner :)
 
tex.stackexchange.com/help/badges/421/explainer @Werner just mentioned the strange behaviour
 
7:53 PM
@Werner I got it also on TeX.SX.
 
@Werner yes I got one too, did I really edit 50 questions in 12 hours?
 
@DavidCarlisle I think the 12h range is limited to every single question.
 
@DavidCarlisle Yes, this thought really scares me. I got one too.
 
oh its 50 q you've edited and answered, that makes more sense
 
@DavidCarlisle Whew.
 
8:06 PM
@Werner Probably Refiner badges will be assessed later
 
@egreg I guess so.
 
How come we didn't get the brown one ?
But got the gray one
 
@Werner On Math.SE there are 1700 Explainer badges; I got one too.
 
@percusse This is so you! Brown, Gray and Yellow instead of Bronze, Silver and Gold. Ever the subversive. :)
6
 
@AlanMunn :D
 
@DavidCarlisle Clear as mud...
 
@AlanMunn :) Colorblindness can be affecting too
 
@AlanMunn Wow, i think many many manny many papers can come out of this (in general, not this particular clip). After all, all humans are animals.
 
Timothy Gowers finally managed to get a hold on to the mind-boggling costs of journal subscriptions (sans IEEE-Elsevier) in UK. 75 M£ only in 2010-2014 to six publishers!!

Extrapolate that to Europe and US. Reminder; publishers force universities to undisclose how much money they pay to the publishers to keep the bargaining power.
Oh and the mandatory disclaimer; He is a Fields medal winner and many other astonishing bling bling. So credibility is assured :)
 
8:41 PM
@percusse Odd
@percusse I wonder how he managed that: FOI requests don't necessarily mean NDAs can be ignored
 
@JosephWright He has been trying since the last two years together with a few other people. Has been rejected a lot but used the Shawshank Redemption technique I think; Annoy until you get a response.
 
@percusse The publishers do tell you how much they charge, at least the 'list price'
 
@percusse The University of Chicago just received a $100 million gift for their endowment, but they can't afford the $582 paper+electronic subscription to the Journal of Early Modern History. It took me over two years to publish an article with them and in the end just got a PDF (purchasable for only $30!) I could have made for free with LaTeX.
 
@JosephWright Not (academic) library prices.
@AndrewCashner Do it anyway. I've placed everything I published online on various places. By changing the documentclass and a few modifications you are out of copyright binding.
Because you are allowed to put preprints elsewhere.
 
@percusse Well, you can get an upper limit. For example, I'd look at things like rsc.org/images/…
 
8:47 PM
@AlanMunn brown and yellow, like here?
61
A: Toilet flush buttons

Bart GijssensOK, how about this? Should be understandable by everyone, irrespective of culture.

 
@percusse Yes, the preprint PDF is on my website legally, per agreement with the publisher.
 
@JosephWright Libraries are forced to buy in batches. So you can't cherrypick the journals but instead they sell you a bundle of journals.
 
@percusse I just couldn't believe that in the end they really are just producing PDFs. If the U of C can't afford the paper copy, then few other institutions will, either.
 
@AlanMunn Holy duck!
 
8:49 PM
@tohecz Well that fits with @percusse 's view that badges are (mainly) bullsh*t!
 
@percusse No, I think you can cherry pick but it costs more per journal once you get a few
 
@PauloCereda Indeed.
 
@JosephWright I don't know all the details but if you do that you can't get a campus license online as far as I know. Only the hardcopies.
 
@AlanMunn LOL
 
@JosephWright If you have time have a look at this gowers.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/elsevierstatementfinal.pdf
 
8:50 PM
@percusse I'm aware of this
@percusse It's a lot less clear-cut in chemistry: industry puts in a lot of money at the moment for journal subscriptions but they make relatively little contribution as authors. Quite a few chemists are worried about how that will fall with an open-access model, especially as almost all the top chemistry journals are owned by learned societies.
 
@JosephWright Hang on there is a video somewhere from Elsevier official
 
@percusse Elsevier publish Tetrahedron Letters: I'm not going to panic about them
(Tet. Lett.is largely worthy but not exciting work: my first paper is in there)
 
@JosephWright sometimes I'm happy for purely theoretical topics. At the same time, we really watch the situation in another fields with some sort of fear. After all, it's research money that goes there mostly.
 
@JosephWright A far more detailed of the FOI story is here gowers.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/elsevier-journals-some-facts
 
@percusse using the words "fair competition" and "hiding information" in one sentence is just hilarious :)
 
8:57 PM
@tohecz In English he is saying otherwise we'll loose money for no reason
 
@percusse thanks, I wasn't quite understanding it, I've got a very bad speakers here
 
@tohecz My subconsciousness censored most of it
 
By the end of the year, iArara will be available for purchase in AppStore, as well as its counterpart ararandroid available in PlayStore. :)
 
@percusse I'm not saying I like the smoke-and-mirrors business, but then again I don't really believe in price negotiations (you don't expect to got to the supermarket and not pay the list price, so why should it be different with anything else: everyone should pay the same and it should be public)
 
@JosephWright Pirated papers, yay!
Oh wait, I shouldn't have said that out loud!
 
9:01 PM
@PauloCereda No, paid for but not at different cost to different users
 
@JosephWright Ah. :)
 
@JosephWright But unfortunately it is not public. Two different libraries pay different prices for the same subscription
 
@PauloCereda Like Sherlock Holmes: a fixed price unless it is waived entirely
 
And they cannot negotiate in that terms because Elsevier threatens to cut off the digital acceess right away.
 
@JosephWright I can hear that in Basil Ratbone's voice. :P
 
9:02 PM
@JosephWright @Paulo this is the whole point: by making the prices private, you twist the market, because this information has a value in the market suddenly.
 
@percusse It would probably be best to block negotiation, e.g. Universities UK here in the UK should do negotiation for all of them (same as a union does for salaries)
 
@JosephWright Check the Excel file, the numbers and the variabilities are shocking
 
@JosephWright but that's of course frowned upon by the publisher
 
@tohecz Done for database services from the same people, so I don't see the issue :-)
 
@JosephWright db's are in general much cheaper, and have always been
 
9:05 PM
@tohecz Erm I'm not sure that is true (I'm on a committee for some of these in the UK, and they are not cheap)
 
@JosephWright well, are they millions to tens of millions of pounds?
 
@tohecz Probably not, but then neither is access to say one publishers chemistry portfolio as I understand it. I'm seeing the two cases as comparable.
 
@JosephWright I think I've confused my argument so it's not converging. My logic is as this :
- Publisher promotes bundles as opposed to cherrypicking by unacceptable price differences
- Then universities are bound with nondisclosure items such that you cannot declare how much you have paid for the journal bundles (by law)
- If you try to break the price by mentioning the prices of other universities paying, they leave the table and send you a court order threatening that this is a violation of the current contract.
I don't know you but this is basically ponzi scheme in purple colors with TeX on top.
 
@JosephWright Well, they lost one part of the high incomes, and they won't be willing to lose another one I think :-/
 
Oh by the way, they send a court order to the other university for leaking sensitive information.
 
9:11 PM
@percusse I can only say what I see: there is value added by the copy editing and typesetting done in my area, as reading the 'raw' submissions one sees nowadays as 'advanced articles' is often quite painful
@tohecz Probably true
@percusse No TeX involved in my neck of the woods
 
@JosephWright well, this is somehow the point. There is true work behind the process. But it shouldn't cost that much. On the other hand, it's difficult, and if I had to estimate the costs in our journal per article, I don't think it would be a small chiffre
 
@JosephWright I can appreciate that angle but I don't think it is powerful enough to counter the major issue.
 
I'm not saying it's worth the money (current 'gold' open access charges are around £3k), but there is a value
 
@JosephWright I completely agree but it's not worth of 18 million pounds a year for something stored digitally.
 
btw, can I know for which post did I get the Explainer?
@percusse how many articles is that?
 
9:15 PM
@tohecz Good question: no idea!
 
@JosephWright because it's not shown here: tex.stackexchange.com/help/badges/421/explainer?userid=11002
 
@tohecz UK total average amount paid to only 6 publishers by the universities.
for open access
per year (approx)
 
@percusse still, I ask how many articles is that? What is the cost per article? Because without this information, 18M pounds is a number that doesn't say anything.
 
Elsevier is allegedly half of that singlehandedly
@tohecz They are usually around $31 on IEEE
 
@percusse For 'gold' access?
 
9:16 PM
@JosephWright Most probably.
 
@percusse that how much you pay for publishing, right?
 
@tohecz That's how much you pay to get an online access if you are within the campus network to certain journals.
 
I wonder how much they recieve altogether on average per article, because that's the relevant information.
 
depending on your university subscription
 
@percusse I've just been involved in getting two articles published 'gold', both with learned society owned journals although one is published by Wiley. We've paid I think £3500 for one and about £2500 for the other.
 
9:18 PM
@JosephWright oh my god!
 
@JosephWright Oh sorry no it's not gold.
These numbers are for campus licenses
 
@percusse Ah
 
Gold publishing is per-author basis
 
@percusse Yes
 
Keep in mind the authors are paid nothing. So the publisher adds considerable value, but what about the primary value of the research by the author?
 
9:19 PM
This is the access part not the publishing part
@AndrewCashner Reviewers and AEs too
 
@AndrewCashner that's supposedly covered in another ways in science
 
@tohecz At the moment there is a block grant here for most articles coming from government, who are keen to go all open-access
 
@tohecz Gold means you pay a lot of money and the publisher removes the paywall specifically from your article. Other articles on the same issue are still behind paywall.
 
@JosephWright interesting. But they do so by paying lots to the publishers
 
Oh, sorry, EUR 3500 not £3500 (wiley-vch.de/util/em-forms/…)
 
9:20 PM
So publisher is saying OK if you pay me this much of bulk money I will give away my right to sell this article.
 
@percusse Depends on the journal: if it's a gold one then everyone pays if accepted
 
@percusse that's just too much. The true cost of publishing one paper is surely no more than like $500.
 
@tohecz I wouldn't like to say
 
@JosephWright ?
 
@tohecz Gowers et al. don't argue that it should be free. They argue that the cost of being a journal and the cost of having a subscription to that journal are impossible to justify
 
9:22 PM
@percusse yep, sounds correct
 
@tohecz I don't know what the figures actually look like nor have any real idea of what might be realistic
 
Given that the crucial part relies on reviewers, authors and editorial part, the journals are practically leaking money from this system under the cloak of being the mighty publisher who embodies the history of science.
 
@percusse Editors are paid, though
 
Which is also not true. Anyway long story short, Elsevier finally pressed under the boycott and opened every article that is at least 5 years old on certain math journals.
 
@JosephWright I've got some experience "from behind the walls". We're a small journal and open-access, which might make a difference. But we basically run a journal with something like 100 articles on 600 pages per year. I'm a part-time, my boss is a part-time, the language editor is a part-time. Then only the printer has to be paid, which could be avoided if we switched to online-only.
 
9:24 PM
@JosephWright Which is also a hot ethical debate still ongoing
 
@percusse Huh?
@percusse Editorial offices need staff, they need money, they need electricity/printers/...
@percusse Huh?
 
@JosephWright which ones? For TCS for example (Elsevier) AFAIK only like one editor is paid, all the other ones do it for free.
 
@JosephWright Paying editors is practically against commerce rules, ethical code of conduct, scientific code etc.
But let's not go into that
Especially in medical domain, journals editors and pharma companies make a deadly triangle about promotion of research articles
 
@tohecz That's pretty small scale, I guess
 
9:27 PM
@JosephWright but it gives the idea: you need in average something like 1 full worker per 300 pages per year.
and another thing: money journals spend almost nothing on typesetting and copy/language editorial, but that's anotther story
 
Plenty of tasks require hard work but still have no economic value. Research has its own kind of value within the academic community, but this depends on how rapidly it can circulate. So by pursuing economic value of research we are killing its intellectual value.
 
@tohecz I want my tikzpictures as they are, I don't care about the content :P
 
@tohecz I'd base costings on the RSC (rsc.org/Publishing/Journals/OpenScience/Fees.asp) as I know that there is a keenness to support open access, etc. from the top and as while there is profit made it goes back into the wider profession
@tohecz So about 10 people for an average journal, then?
 
@JosephWright depends on what your average journal is. I would, for instance, spend much less time on typesetting if we were more strict in it (and forbid word)
 
@AndrewCashner Amazing critique here for your evening reading crypto.junod.info/2013/09/09/…
 
9:31 PM
@tohecz I'd say around 3k pages per year is typical nowadays in the places I look
@tohecz One worker has to be at least £50k once you allow for on-costs
 
@JosephWright By the way, RCS is not exactly the pure evil mentioned in Gowers' posts :) AMS and a few others such as MIT are pretty acceptable
This is more towards Elsevier, Wiley, Springer( a little less), Sage
 
@JosephWright well, 50k per worker, one worker per 300 pages, that's like 150 pounds per page, so yes 1000 pounds per article seems like a good figure. Because as I say, we are probably very inefficient, I would be able to do much more than twice as much as I do now as a full time.
 
@percusse Yow
 
@percusse In chemistry, Elsevier are a small player for the 'core' stuff (and mianly the 'also ran' journals) while Wiley mainly publish journals owned by learned socs, with the two biggest players being learned socs themselves (RSC and ACS). So it's much less of an issue from where I look.
 
@JosephWright I see. Indeed there is a colored noise from each field point-of-view
 
9:35 PM
@tohecz I suspected it might: they are not making massive money although clearly it's a viable business
@percusse Indeed
 
@JosephWright We have mainly IEEE and Elsevier and the practice is unfortunately very bad.
 
@JosephWright well, very likely it is, once you optimise, cut down the costs (such as a qualified language editor), etc.
 
@percusse I'd always assumed that maths stuff would mainly be published by the AMS, LMS, etc.
 
Extra page cost on IEEE is 375 dollars. And you don't even get a printed copy as a decade ago
 
@JosephWright that's what we do. But there are math/TCS/CS fields where it's not the standard
 
9:36 PM
Basically nobody gets printed copies
but still they charge for it
 
@percusse $375 per page is a lot, at least twice.
@percusse because as I explained before, there's a true cost per page of editing
 
@tohecz I had to pay 3 pages due to some nonnegotiable reviewer
Insisted on some stupid proof
 
@percusse publish the proof on arXiv and link it? :D
 
@JosephWright I wish it was so. But SIAM for example is another major journal bundle
 
@percusse 'Extra page'?
 
9:39 PM
@JosephWright We have a 12 page limit per article. If it goes above IEEE charges you costs
 
@JosephWright there's a page limit in each IEEE journal, varies from 6 to ~30 AFAIK
 
@tohecz Ah
 
@tohecz Depends on whether it is a tutorial, technical note, invited paper etc.
 
@percusse I'm only used to limits for communications, and there it has to be inside the length
 
@percusse yep. the review can be long, but they reject yours instantly simply because your H-index or whatever is not the top 10% in the field.
 
9:41 PM
@JosephWright Yes, it is similar
 
btw, I have 3 articles in the queue, I should shove off at least one tonight ;)
 
@tohecz Tell me about it. When my former supervisor left, I had to submit everything as a single author. Let me copy paste a review I got because of this fact
This paper is practically useless. It needs to go to control theory conferences.
Then it got published on IEEE as a recommended paper when I had another supervisor
 
@percusse Very poor reviewing
 
@percusse priceless
@JosephWright quite typical for IEEE, FWIW
 
Unfortunately so.
They might be hanging around on SO as far as I recognize this behavior :P
 
9:44 PM
@percusse Of course you do take a quick look at who the author(s) are, but that's mainly for interest. Then you read the science and it doesn't matter who wrote it.
 
@JosephWright I like the double-blind approach a bit more because of that but it opens another can of worms
 
@percusse Tricky to make workable in any area where you get a pattern of underlying 'stuff'. I don't think it would fly at all in chemistry.
 
@JosephWright Moreover, if you cite your own stuff then it breaks down quickly.
 
@percusse That's one of the issues, yes
@percusse It's normally hard to avoid that!
 
@percusse make double-blind reviews standard and people quickly develop tools for cross-checking the vocabulary, quality of English etc.
 
9:48 PM
@JosephWright I think academic system is not scalable and we are stuck with this. Many irrelevant traditions are mistaken as rigor. I can't shake of the bitterness of the practice even after I got out of it.
 
@tohecz I'd just need to look at the molecules involved :-)
 
@tohecz I successfully guessed the identity of one of my anonymous reviewers based on subject-matter expertise and British spelling.
 
@JosephWright well, that's the point
 
@JosephWright There is another well-written article here about machine learning but applies to many items jakevdp.github.io/blog/2014/08/22/hacking-academia
 
@percusse I meant that if you have a series of papers ongoing on a subject then quite apart from the fact they are yours they have to be cited in a good paper anyway
 
9:50 PM
The author is a well-versed Python contributor by the way
 
@AndrewCashner I know experts on guessing the reviewers, their success rate is above 50% for those cases where they were able to verify the name in some way.
 
@AndrewCashner @tohecz Most of the time, they approach to me in the conferences anyway
 
@percusse Some people like this sort of thing: I prefer to be in the lab making molecules :-)
 
@JosephWright Yes, follow-up is very difficult in double-blind
 
@percusse that's not the case for us, we tend to keep things correct
 
9:52 PM
@tohecz @percusse In the humanities our work is so customized to our personal niches. Almost to the point of "branding."
 
user image
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Well at least appreciate the typography :P
 
good night
 
@AndrewCashner Good night
 
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