English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Also, a man without a beer is just a man who drinks his beer fast enough. Unlike those pseudomen still holding their bottles and not knowing what to do with them.

user19161

"What truly is logic? Who decides reason? My questions take me through the physical, to the metaphysical, to the delusional, and back. And I have made the most important discovery in my career, the most important discovery in my life. It is only in the mysterious equations of love that one can find any logic."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:24 PM

@KitΘδς I'm just saying that "no fear => no faith" is a false statement. Some people lose their fear because of their faith that their god will protect them. Heck, it's Psalm 23!

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 I only drink wine, and you vodka bucketwise.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@JSBᾶngs It's weird because it swaps over. I should be able to at least parse it, just not understand, but it's incomprehensible to the point of being unparseable. To me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy bucketwise is not wise, when drinking any kind of alcohol, I think. You can quote me on that.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I cannot quote a "Mr Shiny and New".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 What is?

@JasperLoy No, you can. You have my blessings.

"Bucketwise is not wise." -- Mr. Shiny & New, 2011, EL&U chat.

user19161

3:26 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Thank you. I am not yet powerful enough to bless others.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy The power was within you all along! Go forth, and bless!

Grace Note

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I think "fear" in this case is the so called "Fear of God".

Not "fear of mortal threats"

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hey don't look at me, I'm on the same page with you on this one.

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Just because it could be that faith -> fearless doesn't make no fear -> no faith untrue.

user19161

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will not fear, for you are with me.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

3:28 PM

@JasperLoy Even in the year 2011, the Bible continues to get rewritten. By Hollywood, no less.

user19161

Fear leads to hatred, hatred leads to anger, anger leads to suffering.

z7sg Ѫ

Beer out of bottles? That's not how a real man drinks beer.

KitΘδς

@GraceNote And yes, I believe that's the point.

@z7sgѪ Tap that keg!

Matt Ellen Д

@z7sgѪ exactly - he drinks cider from a pint glass.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@z7sgѪ No true Scotsman would drink beer anyway.

KitΘδς

3:30 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Hah!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς Let's put aside @GraceNote's definition of fear, which, on reflection, may solve this for a second. If "a man without fear is a man without faith" then that is a statement of fact, which says "no fear implies no faith". But I think it's pretty clear that for some people, faith is what actually removes fear, thus no fear implies faith.

KitΘδς

Except that it is a fear of God, so faith would not remove that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, if the whole quote is "a man without hope is a man without fear. a man without fear is a man without faith" then "no hope -> no fear of god -> no faith"... I don't think that's true either.

Matt Ellen Д

stick a fork in me and call me jack

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattEllenД stabs Matt with a fork

KitΘδς

3:32 PM

@MattEllenД forks Matthew

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Jinx!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

calls Matt Jack.

KitΘδς

@MattEllenД Jack!

Grace Note

@MrShinyandNew安宇 If you have fear of God, you have respect of God's capabilities, which in turn would grant you hope in life.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GraceNote But the inverse is not necessarily true.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@GraceNote I don't see how fear could possibly give hope, sorry.

user19161

3:33 PM

@KitΘδς I can't speak for you because I don't know that much about you, so I just speak for myself if you parsed that correctly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You might have no hope, yet still fear god because of your faith.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

If I fear something, my only hope could possibly be that the fear is unfounded.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Raise your hand if you always thought it was weird that you should "fear god". raises hand

user19161

A jolly discussion has turned into a very deep one here.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Where does it say that I should?

I must've missed a memo.

Mana

3:34 PM

@JasperLoy Such is the way of this incomprehensible room.

KitΘδς

Oh ferchrissakes. Take it up with Stan Lee.

JSBᾶngs

@RegDwightѬſ道 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of all wisdom."

that's in proverbs

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@JSBᾶngs I am glad to have missed that memo, thank you.

I've been happily trying to collect wisdom all on my own.

Grace Note

@RegDwightѬſ道 Note that I'm not actually religious, but my understanding is, "fear of God" is really something of comprehension of the sheer might that God is capable of. In a sense, it's like having a strong bodyguard - you might be afraid of what that power is capable of in understanding how strong it is (you would not want to be on the receiving end), but you have safety because that bodyguard is on your side.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 I was taught it in church.

@GraceNote I understood it as "If you do something bad, God will send you to Hell for eternity".

RegDwight Ѭſ道

3:36 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Funny things you people get taught in church. I am saying that as an Orthodox.

user19161

@GraceNote Sounds pretty much what I have heard.

Grace Note

In as such, your fear and your hope are in opposite directions - your fear (comprehension, rather) is what leads you to have hope because your hope is supported by your fear. If that makes any sense, which I imagine it doesn't.

KitΘδς

@GraceNote I've always thought of it as though it means feeling the awe-full power of God.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 i'll raise my hand at that, but i've come to a conclusion that a large part of my problem is a different cultural frame with how fear is understood. it was common in the ancient world to approach e.g. the king "with fear and trembling", while this is not something that we normally thing of as required for meeting presidents, etc.

user19161

@Mana Mana interjects with his deep presence.

Grace Note

3:37 PM

@KitΘδς That's roughly the way I figure it.

KitΘδς

@GraceNote I was agreeing. grins

Grace Note

Ahha, heh

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@KitΘδς Yeah, like that one time, someone tried to win over the hearts and minds by shock and awe. Look where it got them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs But the king could be cruel and have you beaten or tortured or whatever, on a whim, if he thought you offended him, which is why a peasant would fear the king. It's a real, physical fear.

JSBᾶngs

@RegDwightѬſ道 well, you were saying the other day that stoopid catholicism != orthodoxy, and protestantism is even more different

KitΘδς

3:38 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Hey, we fought back with "hope-y change-y" stuff (and things, @JSB).

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway. That division by zero isn't going to divide itself.

KitΘδς

Bai! Have fun!

Much love for you!

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 i actually don't think that's it. perhaps an expert on the ancient NE could correct me, but it's much more like fear = obedience and respect, both in the case of the king and the case of God

user19161

Division by zero does not give infinity, it is simply undefined. That is how it should be taught in schools.

JSBᾶngs

@JasperLoy that is how it's taught in schools. at least the schools i went to

RegDwight Ѭſ道

3:40 PM

@KitΘδς It's funny, though, how people went with change they could believe in, rather than, you know, actual change.

user19161

@JSBᾶngs Then you are lucky.

KitΘδς

@RegDwightѬſ道 bubble bursts

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That's what beliefs will do to you.

KitΘδς

crestfallen

JSBᾶngs

@RegDwightѬſ道 actual change is most likely impossible under the current electoral system

RegDwight Ѭſ道

3:41 PM

Bingo.

KitΘδς

wilts prostrate

RegDwight Ѭſ道

But I'm just pointing and laughing at the slogan.

JSBᾶngs

but no one wants to listen to me rant about how democracy and universal suffrage are bad ideas again

user19161

By the way, cot should be defined as cos over sin, not 1 over tan. There is a subtle difference.

KitΘδς

@JSBᾶngs Oh, but it is such fun.

user19161

3:42 PM

@JSBᾶngs I am voting this Sat for the president.

JSBᾶngs

@JasperLoy vote for none of the above!

user19161

The four candidates have the same last name.

JSBᾶngs

democracy, like socialism, is a great idea for a small, homogenous group like a village or a religious commune. it sucks balls for huge, diverse industrial nation-states. (@Kit asked for it)

@JasperLoy LOL

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs What should we have instead?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@JasperLoy the more time passes, the less last names remain. The larger the population, the faster this process.

KitΘδς

3:44 PM

@JSBᾶngs Yay! cheers up

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 i honestly don't know. i have some random ideas, but none of them are very realistic and they probably have huge flaws that i haven't thought of yet

KitΘδς

@JSBᾶngs sags slightly

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs Democracy is like how a man has testicles on the outside. It's not the best way to do it, but it's a compromise over worse ways.

user19161

Their last name is a trigonometric function: Tan.

JSBᾶngs

but what i hate even more than democracy is these stupid tests that never work properly

RegDwight Ѭſ道

3:45 PM

@JSBᾶngs Well, the original democracy kind of took the best of two worlds. Everyone could vote, but only for very small values of "everyone".

JSBᾶngs

honestly, i think that the problem is not so much democracy but the nation-state. most of our governmental problems go away if we scale everything down by a factor of 100 or so

user19161

If only everyone could agree perfectly and live happily forever. Sounds like heaven.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

yesterday, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

@JasperLoy a) you stole that proposal from Lennon, b) look what happened to him.

JSBᾶngs

plus, that's the worst song that lennon ever wrote

at least Happy Christmas (War Is Over) is catchy

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 Well, John Lennon = JL = Jasper Loy.

KitΘδς

3:48 PM

@JSBᾶngs claps happily

Powerlord

@RegDwightѬſ道 I expected to see the massive sarcasm quotes on the first "Everyone" not the second. ;)

KitΘδς

It's the modern problem. Everyone has the notion that bigger = better, but it is simply not true.

user19161

@JSBᾶngs I love Imagine.

user19161

And I love that David Archuleta too.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Powerlord That way my statement wouldn't have made sense.

JSBᾶngs

3:49 PM

@KitΘδς yes! and things like the EU and the UN just make the problem worse by trying to "globalize" everything.

Powerlord

@KitΘδς Exactly. For instance, fried bacon is better than uncooked bacon, despite it shrinking during cooking.

KitΘδς

@Powerlord high fives Yes!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@KitΘδς How is that problem modern?

Grace Note

@JasperLoy Pssh, David Cook is cuter.

JSBᾶngs

@Powerlord plus the cooking is how you get the all-important grease for your grease can, which can then be repurposed for vegetables

KitΘδς

3:50 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Because I've only just thought of it.

Jez

> Comedian Nick Helm has won an award for the best joke of the Edinburgh Fringe.

KitΘδς

@JSBᾶngs I am so happy right now!

Powerlord

@JSBᾶngs Or french fries if you're McDonalds.

Jez

> He won for the joke: "I needed a password eight characters long so I picked Snow White and the Seven Dwarves."

user19161

@GraceNote If I were a girl, I would go for Archuleta.

Powerlord

3:50 PM

No wait, that's beef fat.

Jez

<.<

Powerlord

<3 McDonalds and their "100% Pure Vegetable Oil" french fries, which were actually cooked in beef fat.

Grace Note

@JasperLoy He has his appeals but I prefer KCDC.

JSBᾶngs

@Reg has a point that this isn't just a modern problem (though it gets much worse in modernity). the problem, if you can think of it as such, is to come up with suitable incentives to counteract the human power-seeking impulse, which drives empire-building

KitΘδς

@Jez Ha ha ha.

@Powerlord Well, to be fair, it was vegetable oil with beef fat in it.

Powerlord

3:53 PM

@KitΘδς Then it's not 100% Pure, is it? :)

Oh well, McDonalds got sued over that and lost, hence why they don't advertise that any more.

KitΘδς

@Powerlord It's 100% pure vegetable oil with beef fat in it. What's hard about that? joke

user19161

MOS Burger > Burger King > McDonald's for taste.

Powerlord

For what it's worth, most of the time I go to McDonalds or Burger King, it's to get something with chicken in it.

Which seems backwards, I know.

JSBᾶngs

i visit fast food as rarely as possible, but when i do Burger King definitely wins out over all other competitors

user19161

I only eat Big Mac at McDonald's and Mushroom Swiss at Burger King.

KitΘδς

3:55 PM

@JSBᾶngs Are you sure we're not the same person?

The only reason to visit McDonald's is the Playplace.

user19161

MOS Burger

, doing business as (Japanese, "MOS" or "Mountain Ocean Sun"), is a fast-food restaurant chain (fast-casual) that originated in Japan. It is now the second-largest fast-food franchise in Japan after McDonald's, and owns numerous overseas outlets over East Asia, including Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Thailand, Indonesia, and until 2005, Hawaii. It is also the name of the standard hamburger offered by the restaurant, being its first product when the restaurant was founded in 1972. Its headquarters are in the ThinkPark Tower in Ōsaki, Shinagawa, Tokyo. At one time its headquarters were in...

JSBᾶngs

@KitΘδς having seen pictures of both of us, i'm pretty sure i have more beard and less boobs

KitΘδς

Stupid Not-Having-Playplace Burger King. Makes me sad.

@JSBᾶngs ...goo...oo...d...?

It's so hard to make funny vocalizations in here.

JSBᾶngs

@KitΘδς do your kids make you go to the playplace? mine haven't been to fast food often enough to ever ask for it

KitΘδς

@JSBᾶngs They don't make us. It's just more convenient if we want to sit down.

user19161

3:58 PM

I love the Teriyaki Chicken burger at MOS.

KitΘδς

Of course, we feed them fast food every day.

JSBᾶngs

@KitΘδς of course i shaved my beard now, so i'm full of doubt.

user19161

@JSBᾶngs I know you shaved it in Casino Royale.

KitΘδς

"Object reference not set to an instance of an object." Oh right. I was doing something.

aedia λ

@KitΘδς Getting me coffee?

KitΘδς

4:00 PM

@aediaλ Yes! Here!

user19161

@aediaλ coffee for Aedia

user19161

Jinx!

KitΘδς

@aediaλ smooches Hi!

aedia λ

@KitΘδς kisses

Thank you both for the coffee! I'm sure I'll make it through the afternoon now.

KitΘδς

I haven't had much aediatime lately. You been busy, or just me?

aedia λ

4:03 PM

@KitΘδς Yesterday was a long, long day. It felt like two. Or maybe that was the one before that as well. Have yours been like that?

KitΘδς

Yes. Very much so.

Stoopid project.

And I'm trying to work and have a vacation at the same time.

aedia λ

That doesn't sound like a vacation.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς That sounds like a way to ruin both work and vacation at the same time!

KitΘδς

Well, it took me a few days to figure out why I wasn't getting either one done.

;)

So what's your story, @aedia? Bogged down on a project as well?

Anybody off the top of their head remember if .Net has an IsNull function like the SQL function that replaces a value if it's null?

Jez

What the heck is that

RegDwight Ѭſ道

4:09 PM

Gross-o-bun.

KitΘδς

@Jez Oh god. blargh

aedia λ

@KitΘδς Well, I was in Cape Cod for a week. And now't I'm back, they seem to have saved all the problems for me.

KitΘδς

@aediaλ Well, I hope you enjoyed the Cape.

smiles encouragingly

JSBᾶngs

@KitΘδς what do you need compared against null? usually you can just do == null

aedia λ

KitΘδς

4:13 PM

@aediaλ So tranquil, so relaxing.

aedia λ

I keep meaning to post more of my pictures publicly but in the meantime you will have to make do with this picture I took at the beach (where I typically bring an older camera). There are seals on that sandbar, all seals.

All the black dots. It was awesome.

There were little baby ones.

KitΘδς

@JSBᾶngs I know how to compare. I wanted to replace the value if it's null. You can do that it SQL using IsNull(thiscolumn, newvalue).

@aediaλ Sweet.

aedia λ

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

How about (sandwichName == null ? "No sandwich name" : sandwichName)

KitΘδς

@JSBᾶngs But my logic was faulty anyway. I just added a second conditional to my if statement.

aedia λ

4:15 PM

This is someone I don't know fishing on the bay side where I stayed.

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 What is that?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς an expression using the ?: operator, which tests "is sandwhichName null? if yes, return a string, otherwise, the sandwhichName"

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Right. What syntax is that? I don't recognize it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

basically, (boolean_expression) ? value_if_true : value_if_false

KitΘδς

Language.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:17 PM

It's in C, C++, Java, and I assume C#

any C-like language, I'd expect

KitΘδς

Really? I don't remember that at all and I used to program exclusively in C/C++.

How funny.

Maybe that's why I could read it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

?:

In computer programming, ?: is a ternary operator that is part of the syntax for a basic conditional expression in several programming languages. It is commonly referred to as the conditional operator or inline if (iif). It originally comes from CPL, which equivalent syntax for e1 ? e2 : e3 was e1 → e2, e3. Conditional assignment ?: is used as follows: condition ? value if true : value if false The condition is evaluated true or false as a Boolean expression. On the basis of the evaluation of the Boolean condition, the entire expression returns value if true if condition is true...

aedia λ

@KitΘδς It was really really cool. The picture with the seals is from one of the times we went over to the ocean beach, which was nearby, but the bay was visible across the street from our cottage. I went in it nearly every day. I wish I were still there...

KitΘδς

@aediaλ Do you get to go much?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's like a mini if-statement in one expression. But you could always just write a function to do the same job.

KitΘδς

4:19 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I like its compactness.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς The wikipedia page shows the syntax for the same idiom in other languages that don't do it the same way.

Anyway, time to beat up some gnocchi. Then eat it.

aedia λ

@KitΘδς My parents try to go to the Cape every year at least for a weekend - been going since I was a kid. But since I was in college I haven't always been able to join them. This trip was great because we got my husband's parents and my grandfather there for part of the time too.

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Go get it!

@aediaλ That sounds great. We do something like that here, except down on Eggemoggin Reach. That's why I am at work and on vacation at the same time.

Most of the extended family comes for a visit.

aedia λ

I don't get to go to the beach much beyond that. It's kind of a pain down here to get away for even a weekend, because of the traffic. I've been to Ocean City (MD) once, last fall, and that was nice.

@KitΘδς Eggemoggin Reach is somewhere I'm going to have to look up... oh, that's farther north in ME than I've ever been!

Looks nice though.

KitΘδς

Mental note: Do not use "AndAlso" when you really mean "Or." Do not use "<" when you mean ">."

@aediaλ It's similar to the Cape, from what I've been told, only quieter and more sheltered.

z7sg Ѫ

4:26 PM

@KitΘδς I worked at a place where they banned use of it in case it confused people.

KitΘδς

@z7sgѪ OMG. Dolts.

JSBᾶngs

here is my writerly advice for the day: a good noun is worth a dozen cheap adjectives

KitΘδς

@JSBᾶngs A dozen cheap, tawdry, smutty adjectives?

@z7sgѪ I worked at a place where the project lead wanted everything documented "to the level that [they] could modify the code later, if needed." Keeping in mind that the people he expected would modify the code were secretaries and accountants.

z7sg Ѫ

that is a great noun right there: smut

JSBᾶngs

@KitΘδς they're just sluts.

KitΘδς

4:29 PM

Trollops.

JSBᾶngs

hussies

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

floozies

KitΘδς

@JSBᾶngs I love Hussy.

z7sg Ѫ

@KitΘδς manager's dumb idea 42323 of a gazillion

KitΘδς

@z7sgѪ I told him that I had documented it the level where if you couldn't understand the documentation you shouldn't be tampering with the code.

JSBᾶngs

4:32 PM

@Kit that's a good answer

KitΘδς

@JSBᾶngs :-) Are you going to upvote me?

z7sg Ѫ

@KitΘδς accountants tampering with my code??!?!? nooooooo imagine the hell that would break loose if i were permitted to tamper with the company's books

@KitΘδς i've starred you instead ;)

aedia λ

@KitΘδς I've been to the ocean near Brunswick, but not farther north. Popham Beach, I think. That was really nice. Interestingly full of big rocks.

KitΘδς

@aediaλ Most of our coastline has big rocks. Little ones too. Not so much sand, hence "Sand Beach."

z7sg Ѫ

@KitΘδς Not so much sand, hence "Sand Beach" is that a playfully ironic name then?

KitΘδς

4:40 PM

@z7sgѪ Oh, no. I mean, it's actually a usefully descriptive place name.

"Which beach?" "Sand Beach." "The one with the sand?" "Yeah. Duh."

aedia λ

@z7sgѪ It's not tampering. It's making sure your contribution is valued and included in the product design.

z7sg Ѫ

@aediaλ Hmmm... I beg to differ!

aedia λ

Everyone's contribution is valuable. We must come to consensus before we move forward on the important topic of whether this month's bank balance is positive or negative.

JSBᾶngs

today is CAKE THURSDAY? why didn't anybody tell me there would be cake?

aedia λ

Then, going forward, we will schedule a meeting to discuss whether bold italic or all capital letters are better for emphasizing our FREE deals on the website.

KitΘδς

4:48 PM

►

@aediaλ Don't forget to assign your action items in the approved meeting notes!

JSBᾶngs

1

Q: Is it always ok to use the verb "to say" after a question?

Does it sound strange to use the verb "to say" after a question? For example: "'Why is it called a memorial?' said Laura." If I were to have written this, I would have used "asked" instead. Am I alone in feeling that it sounds a little strange with "said", or am I just imagining it?

word-usage

^ belongs on writers.se

KitΘδς

@JSBᾶngs You speak and I obey.

aedia λ

@KitΘδς Should I put the action item of approving the meeting notes in the meeting notes? Or should I send a separate round of emails asking if the meeting notes are approved? Hmm. I think it's too hard. A separate meeting to approve the meeting notes!

KitΘδς

@aediaλ Nonsense. What kind of place are you running there? You should have a standing committee for the assignment of action items that reports to the sitting chair of the committee for the approval of meeting minutes so that they can coordinate the joint approval of the inclusion of the approved, assigned action items in the approved meeting minutes. tch Duh.

4

(The frightening thing is that the whole sentence actually makes sense.)

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…