The Whiteboard

user41796

6:00 PM

@MichaelT Those large sensors have to be such a "cross your fingers and pray" type situation with manufacturing.

user55340

@GlenH7 yep... but kind of neat seeing the small mosaic ones and explaining that "no, thats not one sensor" to people.

user55340

Still, consider the implications of being able to make a flawless 8" wafer.

user41796

@MichaelT A frisbee that can perform teraflops?

user55340

@GlenH7 Its a CCD for the US Naval observatory.

Ampt

@MichaelT You mean you can't?? n00b

user55340

6:09 PM

@Ampt you can, but thats a lot of wafers you test and discard first.

Ampt

@MichaelT Given the right budget, I think it matters less and less

user55340

@Ampt ie: governments can buy this, you can't.

Ampt

:'( I want to be a government

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt first, you get the money...

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa I'm now imposing a tax on you. Pay up.

This government thing is awesome

Jimmy Hoffa

6:15 PM

@Ampt wait, what does my tax money buy? Will you like protect my parking spot or something?

I'll pay you a tax to remove my neighbors car from in front of my house

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Your Taxes will go to keeping peace in by wallet

It's a terribly divided territory

and a serious sore point in global economics

but, with your taxes, we can bring peace and stability to the region

We also feel that if we don't intervene now, it could jeopardize the safety of the entire governmental body.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt sounds like politics as usual, I'm expatriating

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Sounds like you need some Freedom

@JimmyHoffa Without your Taxes, there will be a blood power struggle between the terrorist groups known only as Student Loans and G.I.R.L.F.R.I.E.N.D

user15026

@Ampt Those are some scary terrorist groups.

ratchet freak

and hard to get rid of

Ampt

6:27 PM

@AshleyNunn They've had an uneasy agreement ever since the Paying Job has entered the region, but G.I.R.L.F.R.I.E.N.D keeps making demands for temporary relocation to somewhere with beaches.

I just don't think that Paying Job can keep the peace without intervention, hence the Taxes.

user15026

@Ampt That sounds like some tricky negotiations ahead. I see why you are insisting on the taxes.

user55340

@Ampt assure her that you're making enough to buy your own Caribbean island now...

user55340

Or Hawaiian...

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt they get power from blood? You are messing with some dark shit...

user55340

0

A: Tag merge / synonym request: [optimisation] -> [optimization]

This has been done. 1 question was affected by this merge.

Ampt

6:30 PM

@JimmyHoffa Some days it feels like that, yes.

user55340

That one might have had enough people to do it... though its still a matter of getting enough people to actually do it.

Ampt

@MichaelT Not without those taxes I'm not!

user55340

@Ampt First... buy oracle... and I don't mean as a product...

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa your taxes just went up.

We need to buy oracle to buy an island for relocation of G.I.R.L.F.R.I.E.N.D.

user15026

I am glad I am in Canada where I am immune to your weird taxation laws and at least one fo your terrorist cells. :P

Ampt

6:32 PM

@AshleyNunn No, this is the Nation of Programmia. Being in chat is enough to be taxed. I accept Cash or Credit. No Personal checks please.

user41796

@Ampt cruise prices should be dropping in the near future, I'd think

user41796

@Ampt Paypal?

Ampt

@GlenH7 yeah we were looking at one.

user15026

@Ampt I am currently making chocolate glazed donuts in my kitchen. Can we work out a trade?

Ampt

Paypal is also acceptable

user55340

6:33 PM

Yep... Canadian G.I.R.L.F.R.I.E.N.Ds are completely mythical and only used to impress the J.O.C.K.S.

Ampt

@AshleyNunn It depends on if either Student Loans or G.I.R.L.F.R.I.E.N.D will accept them as payment.

user15026

@Ampt Let me know how those negotiations go. :P

user55340

(I don't believe that @AshleyNunn is actually Canadian... she lives further south than I do...)

user41796

@AshleyNunn We're on our way!

user15026

@MichaelT Shush! I can't help that. They gave me a passport and everything, so someone must believe I belong ;)

user55340

6:35 PM

@AshleyNunn Still waiting for cupcakes.

user15026

@GlenH7 Good. Because I am making these in a tiny donut pan so there will be very many. I am going to need help.

user41796

@AshleyNunn Well they felt so sorry about the situation...

user15026

@MichaelT Come to Canada. :P

user15026

@GlenH7 Oh, I see how it is.

user41796

@AshleyNunn couldn't resist that one...

user55340

6:36 PM

@AshleyNunn I had a bit of difficulty getting into canada last time without a job... though having a house and cat here may have them think differently about it this time.

user15026

@GlenH7 I laughed :)

user15026

@MichaelT Oh, yeah, that might be problematic. But cupcakes!

whatsisname

I've only been to canada illegally

via canoe

user55340

... and out of close votes.

Ampt

@MichaelT I've got a handful left here

user55340

6:39 PM

Hmm... neat device: Nikon WU-1b

user55340

Ampt

> Our system has identified this post as possible spam; please review carefully

Saw this on the re-open queue

user55340

@Ampt most often an audit... but sometimes not.

Ampt

On an audit, yes

kind of gives away the point doesn't it...

user41796

> This is an audit.

Ampt

6:42 PM

Yeah pretty much

> Open this question in a new tab to determine correct course of action

user55340

@Ampt its intended to catch the people who aren't paying attention.

ratchet freak

for those who just click leave open on everything

user41796

@ratchetfreak wish we didn't have that problem.

user55340

note that we do have people who fail those audits here for exactly that reason.

ratchet freak

does failing those audits consistently have an effect?

user55340

6:45 PM

@ratchetfreak Not sure if there's an automated system, or if its an SO only thing... but one can get banned from review queues.

user55340

One person - note all the leave opens and the contrary to consensus votes.

user55340

I don't see any reviews in that batch though.

user41796

@MichaelT That person hasn't been as active in that queue. Still shows up, but not as much as before.

hilmanshini

helo there

user55340

6:53 PM

@hilmanshini 'ello.

hilmanshini

anyone have a good Calendar API?

user41796

language?

hilmanshini

google Calendar API sucks

i mean web service

user55340

What are you trying to do?

user55340

And in what language?

hilmanshini

6:53 PM

i want to seek national holidays in date range

web service is not depending language isnt it?

user55340

Are you willing to pay money? timeanddate.com/services/api/holiday-api.html

user55340

10

Q: Is there a comprehensive API or JSON/XML list with public/bank holidays worldwide?

As I´m building a web app that includes a calendar as one of it´s features and that can be used all over the world, as a connivence to users I´d like them to easily include their local holidays. Ideally I´d like to just store their country and pull a list from an API. Ideal would be a API that o...

hilmanshini

wow

user41796

@hilmanshini No, but APIs do

hilmanshini

that related

yeah

all paid :\

user55340

6:55 PM

If you're only after one country it isn't that hard to write the code for the appropriate reoccurrence function (other than Easters)

user55340

You're asking for something that someone else hosts... they're not going to do that for free.

Ampt

Don't forget leap years!

hilmanshini

yeah , @MichaelT

Ampt

Step 1. Open wallet....

hilmanshini

lol

Step 2. Take A Money

thanks anyway

user55340

6:58 PM

You'll need to pay for someone to host it, have appropriate SLAs for the service so that when it goes down on Dec 23nd and you need to figure out if you can have it arrive on Jan 1 or not...

user55340

Again, if you're only after a single country, it shouldn't be that hard to write the function to give you the date of each holiday.

hilmanshini

you mean like user that input a holiday ?that will be so many

user55340

Admititally, would get interesting for the middle east were the calendars are much more tied to the lunar cycle... but thats another matter.

Cameron McKay

There is undoubtedly a library that exists that will tell you the holidays for a given year and country.

hilmanshini

anyway is google only provide a few month?

i have seek this.
http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/japanese@holiday.calendar.google.com/public/basic

user55340

7:00 PM

(see example for Daylight Savings for Israel: timeanddate.com/time/zone/israel/jerusalem -- heh... note the site thats at)

user55340

They give you an ical thing - its specific dates, not a function. Populating it too far out in the future is wasteful.

hilmanshini

yeah thats true, but in information in past is worthy also

Ampt

oh man, if you want past dates good luck

user55340

Working with the doomsday rule and the appropriate information its probably easier just to write the functions for whenChristmas(int year) and the like.

user55340

Doomsday rule

The Doomsday rule or Doomsday algorithm is a way of calculating the day of the week of a given date. It provides a perpetual calendar since the Gregorian calendar moves in cycles of 400 years. This algorithm for mental calculation was devised by John Conway after drawing inspiration from Lewis Carroll's work on a perpetual calendar algorithm. It takes advantage of each year having a certain day of the week (the doomsday) upon which certain easy-to-remember dates fall; for example, 4/4, 6/6, 8/8, 10/10, 12/12, and the last day of February all occur on the same day of the week in any given year....

hilmanshini

7:04 PM

ah Michael you give me an idea

user55340

Easter is the only one that is a bit more challenging...

hilmanshini

why?

is easter dynamic?

user55340

Computus

Computus (Latin for "computation") is the calculation of the date of Easter in terms of, first, the Julian and, later, the Gregorian calendar. The name has been used for this procedure since the early Middle Ages, as it was considered the most important computation of the age. Following the First Council of Nicaea, the date for Easter was completely divorced from the Jewish calendar and its computations for Passover. Thereafter, in principle, Easter fell on the Sunday following the full moon that follows the Northern spring equinox (the so-called Paschal Full Moon). However, the vernal equinox...

user55340

First, realize that Catholic and Orthodox easters are different.

hilmanshini

thats seems pretty complex

user55340

7:05 PM

Though the orthodox easter isn't a holiday in the US.

user55340

Paschal Full Moon

Notionally, the paschal full moon refers to the ecclesiastical full moon of the northern spring used in the determination of the date of Easter. The name "paschal" is derived from "Pascha", a transliteration of the Greek word, which is itself a transliteration of the Hebrew pesach, both words meaning Passover. The date of Easter is determined as the first Sunday after the first paschal full moon falling on or after the Spring Equinox (March 21). This "full moon" does not currently correspond directly to any astronomical event, but is instead the 14th day of a lunar month, determined from tables...

hilmanshini

how about if i scrap this site
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2010&country=65

user55340

@hilmanshini timeanddate.com/robots.txt

user55340

You'll get blocked rather readily.

hilmanshini

why? robots.txt gives nothing , its just like SEO tools isnt it?

Ampt

7:07 PM

Of course if you just want to save them on your own site for reference....

it says you can't scrape my site

hilmanshini

@Ampt yeah that might be good

user55340

User-agent: *
Disallow: /createshort.html
Disallow: /scripts/savecustom.php
Disallow: /scripts/wquery.php
Disallow: /scripts/tzq.php
Disallow: /scripts/savepersonal.php
...

user55340

It says, don't go there if you are automated. Given that their product is their API, they likely have scripts and such identifying when that is attempted to be circumvented.

Ampt

make it slow and random enough and you could probably circumvent it long enough to get a few years worth... Not that I'm suggesting any such idea

or download a few years to your computer and scrape it there

I don't know how far out you need data...

hilmanshini

yep

actually holidays might be in 2000 to 2060

user55340

7:09 PM

Here's the question to ask - how much will it cost you to write the code to do this?

user55340

Because time is money...

user55340

And then consider if thats more or less than $100/year.

hilmanshini

hmm yeah

user55340

Guess what! Someone created a new holiday... now you need to rewrite your code.

hilmanshini

or may be rescrap again

anyway any other site can be candidates?

user55340

7:12 PM

Dunno... btw, that time and date site has a 3 month free trial.

hilmanshini

its free isnt it?

timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2010&country=65

Ampt

Huh, the new Jeep GC has an air ride system. that's neat

user55340

(My brother had a fun time... he went off of USNO data though... he was computing the full moon data for yoga moon days...)

hilmanshini

well thanks guys need to work again

user55340

Essentially, he was after aa.usno.navy.mil/imagery/moon

Ampt

7:16 PM

that's cool

user55340

But was after aa.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/…

user55340

I've used that data quite a bit back in my serious photography of SF and Yosemite days...

user55340

I wanted to find out exactly when the sun or moon would rise or set from a specific point over the golden gate bridge or half dome or something...

user55340

Some grim darwin bit on daylight savings...

user55340

> In territories controlled by the Palestinian National Authority, DST ends later, which can lead to some confusion. On September 5, 1999, terrorists were transporting two bombs that they mistakenly thought were set to go off at 17:30 Israel Standard Time; they were actually set for 17:30 Palestinian Daylight Time, which was an hour ahead. As a result, the bombs went off while being transported, killing the terrorists. The mistake earned the terrorists the 1999 Darwin Awards.

user55340

7:19 PM

darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-38.html

gnat

wonder how this garbage passed through quality filter: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/254595/… (I would expect it to be somehow sensitive to titles and texts that are all uppercase)

@Shog9 is quality filter by chance broken? Example that I would expect to be blocked is: DETERMINISTIC FINITE STATE MACHINE "DESIGNING A SIMPLE DETERMINISTIC FINITE STATE MACHINE TO RECOGNISE A VALID DUT PASSWORD NUMBER. IT ,MUST FIRST INCLUDE LOWERCASE LETTER,NUMBER AND SUBSEQUENT SYMBOLS @!%$&" — gnat yesterday

user55340

@gnat I'll poke at that one...

user41796

YOUR QUESTION IS STILL OFF-TOPIC FOR PROGRAMMERS BECAUSE IT IS ABOUT AN IMPLEMENTATION ISSUE. AND PLEASE DON'T TYPE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS AS IT APPEARS LIKE YOU ARE SHOUTING! — GlenH7 yesterday

user41796

D'oh! I see you already rolled that one back.

user55340

0

Q: How effective is the quality filter?

The question DETERMINISTIC FINITE STATE MACHINE (10k link) had the content of: DESIGNING A SIMPLE DETERMINISTIC FINITE STATE MACHINE TO RECOGNISE A VALID DUT PASSWORD NUMBER. IT ,MUST FIRST INCLUDE LOWERCASE LETTER,NUMBER AND SUBSEQUENT SYMBOLS @!%$& What was the quality score for this? How...

feature-request bug quality-filter

gnat

7:26 PM

5

A: Is it time to tighten up the quality filter at Programmers?

After analyzing the data, I'm not convinced raising the sensitivity of the current filters will do much good on Programmers: The "quality" checks were designed for sites like Stack Overflow which attract a lot of short, very poorly written questions. Of the examples you gave, only 1 would curre...

user55340

@GlenH7 Anyone who types in all caps should get answers in FORTRAN or COBOL only.

user41796

@MichaelT I'm okay with that rule.

psr

@hilmanshini I've worked on apps that have users input them, because it may depend on the purpose (in U.S. there are holidays not everyone takes, so national holiday vs. bank holiday, vs. religious holidays), and may be important. (Think determining interest on an international bond contract). But it really depends on your purpose in having the holidays.

user41796

@psr interest takes holidays?!

Ampt

I Downvoted, closed, and got accepted answer all on one question? Just my kinda day I guess

user55340

7:27 PM

If one was after... say... a perl API: search.cpan.org/~sbeck/Date-Manip-6.46/lib/Date/Manip/…

psr

@GlenH7 Oddly there are contracts that work that way. I thought it was weird as well.

Ampt

@GlenH7 only if it's your money earning iterest, other wise it gets holiday pay of 3.0x

ratchet freak

@Ampt wait until you can delete

user41796

@psr I have never heard of that before.

user55340

Employer^^ had a 1.5x pay increase for weekends and holidays (I think it was 1.5 for holiday)...

user41796

7:29 PM

@ratchetfreak 2 more and that one is gone

Ampt

@GlenH7 Does my rep dissapear when it gets deleted?

ratchet freak

yes

user55340

If you were a point of sales guy with nothing to do on day after thanksgiving, you could get some nice pay by sitting around in the office for 12h (note: +4 OT hours in there too) as support.

Ampt

Bah Humbug.

psr

@GlenH7 Implementing financial contracts means implementing anything 2 parties can dream up.

ratchet freak

7:31 PM

@psr long list

psr

@ratchetfreak One of those, "the sales guy agreed to what?!" kinds of things.

ratchet freak

and they change their mind every other day

user55340

I'm still an advocate of what would be known as 'cosmopolitan time' - one 24h clock for the entire world.

user20683

\o

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT New Earth Time.

user55340

7:33 PM

I'm in GMT -5... so lunch would be at 17:00.

user55340

But my 17:00 is the same 17:00 as someone living in Californai (GMT -7)... they just have lunch at 19:00 instead.

ratchet freak

put everyone on zulu time?

user55340

Not that its an argument for or against it, but China does it that way... all of china is in one time zone even though it spans 3 time zones with its neighbors.

user55340

And I'm going huh..... London is on one timezone and Paris is in another? Its 8:35PM in London and 9:35 in Paris.

ratchet freak

I'm on parisian time

user55340

7:37 PM

Gibraltar Spain is 9:35 while Rabbat Morocco is 8:35 again.

user55340

Paris meridian

The Paris meridian is a meridian line running through the Paris Observatory in Paris, France—now longitude 2°20′14.03″ east. It was a long-standing rival to the Greenwich meridian as the prime meridian of the world, as was the Antwerp meridian in Antwerp, Belgium. == Origin == In the year 1634, France ruled by Louis XIII and Cardinal Richelieu decided that the Ferro meridian should be used as the reference on maps, since this island is the most western position of the Old World. It was also thought to be exactly 20 degrees west of Paris. A French astronomer, Abbé Jean Picard, measured the length...

user55340

I think they're still bitter.

psr

@GlenH7 I think that the motivation was "I redeem a German bond in the U.S. on a German bank holiday, do I get interest for that day?" and in some cases they wanted the answer to be "no". Er, "nein".

ratchet freak

@MichaelT or they didn't want to be the odd one out on mainland EU

user55340

Arbitrage

In economics and finance, arbitrage (/ˈɑrbɨtrɑːʒ/) is the practice of taking advantage of a price difference between two or more markets: striking a combination of matching deals that capitalize upon the imbalance, the profit being the difference between the market prices. When used by academics, an arbitrage is a transaction that involves no negative cash flow at any probabilistic or temporal state and a positive cash flow in at least one state; in simple terms, it is the possibility of a risk-free profit after transaction costs. For instance, an arbitrage is present when there is the opportunity...

ratchet freak

7:38 PM

like portugal is now

user55340

@psr again, one time for the world simplifies that...

user55340

And then there's the fun of where do you put a datacenter to exploit that:

user55340

Relativistic statistical arbitrage

user55340

(warning, my eyes start glazing over on the third page...)

ratchet freak

7:42 PM

warning: I have a cat on my lap

gnat

Rip Van Winkle ---> programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/254711/…

Rip Van Winkle

"Rip Van Winkle" is a short story by American author Washington Irving published in 1819 as well as the name of the story's fictional protagonist. Written while Irving was living in Birmingham, England, it was part of a collection entitled The Sketch Book of Geoffrey Crayon, Gent.. Although the story is set in New York's Catskill Mountains, Irving later admitted, "When I wrote the story, I had never been on the Catskills." == Summary == The story of Rip Van Winkle is set in the years before and after the American Revolutionary War. In a pleasant village, at the foot of New York's Catskil...

user55340

@Ampt don't you wish you were still in college? austin360.com/weblogs/liquid/2014/aug/27/…

user55340

►

ratchet freak

@MichaelT starts coding a 99 bottles program

Ampt

8:03 PM

I'm not allowed to get one because I'm not in college?

that's some shit

user41796

@Ampt Actually, I think the real reason you can't have one is because you're not in Austin today.

Robert Harvey

0

Q: Considerations for moving monitor mixes to the stage

I am involved in a band with six members, one of which plays several instruments. In an effort to improve our chances of getting a good sound check by relieving the FOH sound engineer of the monitor mix burden, we have decided to move the monitor mix (and in some cases, the main mix) to the stag...

mixing monitoring live-performance

user41796

@RobertHarvey FWIW, my old 20 channel mixer had a selector to go between mic and line level from the XLR in

user41796

But that was a 80's (?) vintage analog unit

Robert Harvey

My old 16 channel Yamaha does too, and so do all of the newer ones. Maybe I'm worrying about nothing.

user41796

8:15 PM

@RobertHarvey It's more a question of if they're willing to fiddle with it. With so many channels, I never swapped mine.

Robert Harvey

You mean the band or the FOH guy?

The band is all in.

user41796

And TBH, I never used even 1/2 of those channels.

user41796

@RobertHarvey The FOH guy

Robert Harvey

The only thing they'd have to change is the frontend gain on their channels.

user41796

I can't imagine they would be so rigid as to say "no, this is a mic only" or "no, this is a line only" channel

user41796

8:16 PM

but I dunno, I never had to deal with FOH problems like that.

Robert Harvey

@GlenH7 Especially when you have line-level DI boxes.

user41796

right

user41796

I'd imagine FOH guys for the gigs you're likely to be playing are used to fiddling with things as part of the sound check.

user41796

"all part of the job"

Robert Harvey

Yes, and we're trying to reduce that fiddling to an absolute minimum.

The "many instruments" guy cost us a sound check at the last gig because he wanted his own monitor mix, but the venue was set up for a single return for all monitors.

It didn't go well.

user41796

8:18 PM

Ew....

user41796

Um, get much better and super famous and then be able to demand that?

Robert Harvey

Yes, exactly.

Or, do it yourself.

user41796

@RobertHarvey There is something to be said for a decoupling there

Robert Harvey

We're very good at managing our own electronics, so the idea is to distribute the load, and take the monitoring function away from the FOH engineer so that he can focus on getting his own mix down.

user41796

I think if you pitch it that way most FOH guys would be agreeable

Robert Harvey

8:22 PM

The mixer I chose is amazingly flexible. It's got 16 inputs, eight direct outs, eight inserts, 4 stereo aux buses, 4 sends with stereo returns, and 2 main outs.

So I can use it for other things, like computer recording.

gnat

8:37 PM

ever wondered how crappy questions / answers get upvotes out of thin air? Let me introduce you: #3 all-time voter: 11,069 up / 118 down. User user. For the sake of precision, their stats on SU are even more impressive: 7,050 / 20 (that's twenty)

Ampt

You can vote how you want to, we can leave our posts behind, but if you up vote, every single post, well, then you're no friend of mine

user41796

8:52 PM

@gnat They find a lot of things helpful?

user55340

@RobertHarvey you should toss some of these C++ quotes into the lounge next time you find yourself dragged in there: harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++

user55340

> Being really good at C++ is like being really good at using rocks to sharpen sticks.

user55340

> C++ has its place in the history of programming languages. Just as Caligula has his place in the history of the Roman Empire.

psr

@gnat If he downvoted many answers he'd lose the ability to vote at all.

user55340

> Alternatives to C++:
C
Go
Throwing yourself into an active volcano.

Ampt

8:59 PM

lmao

user20683

D and Rust as well

user20683

Ada in theory

user55340

> Whenever the C++ language designers had two competing ideas as to how they should solve some problem, they said, “OK, we’ll do them both”. So the language is too baroque for my taste. — Donald E Knuth

Ampt

> The last good thing written in C++ was the Pachelbel Canon.

user55340

> If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor and when was the last time you needed one?

Ampt

9:01 PM

> C++ is to C as Lung Cancer is to Lung.

wow haha. that's harsh

user55340

> Historically, languages designed for other people to use have been bad: Cobol, PL/I, Pascal, Ada, C++. The good languages have been those that were designed for their own creators: C, Perl, Smalltalk, Lisp. — Paul Graham

Ampt

> C++: an octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.

psr

@MichaelT The most insightful so far.

user55340

@psr Yep. Its part of the trouble with designing for other people...

user55340

> There was once a programmer who was attached to the court of the warlord of Wu. The warlord asked the programmer: ``Which is easier to design: an accounting package or an operating system?''

``An operating system,'' replied the programmer.

The warlord uttered an exclamation of disbelief. ``Surely an accounting package is trivial next to the complexity of an operating system,'' he said.

``Not so,'' said the programmer, ``when designing an accounting package, the programmer operates as a mediator between people having different ideas: how it must operate, how its reports must appear, and…

user55340

9:04 PM

The Tao of Programming. Section 3.3

user55340

The thing is with those languages... they were designed by a person with a single mental model of how it works. "It works like I want it to." and thus it is a consistent model for how it works. When you start having designed by committee and such languages then you've got inconsistencies between how one person thinks it should work and another.

whatsisname

OS is still easier to debug

user55340

> A master was explaining the nature of Tao of to one of his novices. ``The Tao is embodied in all software - regardless of how insignificant,'' said the master.

``Is the Tao in a hand-held calculator?'' asked the novice.

``It is,'' came the reply.

``Is the Tao in a video game?'' continued the novice.

``It is even in a video game,'' said the master.

``And is the Tao in the DOS for a personal computer?''

The master coughed and shifted his position slightly. ``The lesson is over for today,'' he said.

whatsisname

I like the one about "avoid COBOL if you can" or whatever it is

psr

@MichaelT The Tao explains some things, the Doh others.

user55340

9:08 PM

> The Tao gave birth to machine language. Machine language gave birth to the assembler.

The assembler gave birth to the compiler. Now there are ten thousand languages.

Each language has its purpose, however humble. Each language expresses the Yin and Yang of software. Each language has its place within the Tao.

But do not program in COBOL if you can avoid it.

user55340

I still like Book 5 - Maintenance

Robert Harvey

9:20 PM

@MichaelT Maybe I'll just link the whole page, and save some time.

user55340

9:36 PM

~ $ irb
irb(main):001:0> ''.methods.length
=> 161
irb(main):002:0> 1.methods.length
=> 128

user55340

And thats why you don't want to write ruby code.

Ampt

what's wrong with having 128 methods for an integer :P

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt some OCD open source dude has been manually moving every removal or addition to some junk class to maintain the nice even power of 2 count for years

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa ... You're kidding right?

user55340

@JimmyHoffa i-programmer.info/news/98-languages/… - read it and cry...

Jimmy Hoffa

9:42 PM

yesterday, by Jimmy Hoffa

> Every thing possible to be believ'd is an image of truth.

psr

@JimmyHoffa → 1 message moved to Trash

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa K good.

user55340

> Back when PHP had less than 100 functions, the function hashing mechanism was strlen(). In order to get a nice hash distribution of function names across the various function name lengths, names were picked specifically to make them fit into a specific length bucket.

user55340

news.php.net/php.internals/70691

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT ...wow...

user55340

9:45 PM

"nah... can't use strfoo because thats 6 characters long... how about stngfoo instead so it hashes differently?"

Jimmy Hoffa

strlen!?!?

user55340

As if you needed another reason to make fun of php.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT at that point you'd think he'd just include a "Hashcode" property in each one, and just have it hard coded so he can use a new one each time...

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa nah, altering the function length is way more simple man. what kinda hacker are you

user55340

btw, @GlenH7 - your favorite protozoa wgno.com/2014/08/28/…

user55340

9:47 PM

Would you rather live in Toledo? or St. John Parish?

user55340

@psr there was an incident a bit ago about a youth on a slip and slide.

user41796

@MichaelT I like distilled water for that reason...

user55340

(Last year, early september - cbsnews.com/news/… - check the title if you want to actually read about it)

psr

No, I don't.

Jimmy Hoffa

seconded..

I HATE WCF.

It had to be said.

...stupid CORS....

psr

10:04 PM

Sanity check question - Am I just stupid to do 2-way manual data binding in WinForms? I want a bunch of properties on a DataGridView to be managed by my controller and I think it might simplify my life if I can control when the binding from controller to DataGridView happens.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr You mean you're not using the .DataSource property in WinForms, but manually filling the grid rows and cells?

Robert Harvey

@JimmyHoffa Too complex? Needz moar XML?

psr

@JimmyHoffa Yes. And listening to grid events to make it 2 way (and avoiding infinite loop).

Robert Harvey

I have a DataGridView similar to that. I just write a nested loop that collects all the elements into a two-dimensional array.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey too closed, needs more extension points (like it doesn't have enough?) that actually are useful - specifically WCF being the lifetime owner for your objects is a trashed thing for any use of WCF outside of the IIS use cases

among countless other reasons it should give me access to my object lifetime rather than taking it away from me - I wrote and designed the service and should get to dictate it's lifetime behaviour and creational patterns

@psr yuck. One of the biggest things you're losing is the automatic sorting and filtering that DataView's give you (set your .DataSource to a .DataView that has a view of a DataTable that's been filtered/sorted/whatever appropriately)

along with the 2 way binding obviously

psr

10:16 PM

Normally I use binding, but in this case I'm setting more than just values, also background color, tooltip, etc.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr those are just values if you structure it right...

not all cells need to be visible

they can be responsive to events and use other cells in their row to compute display properties if that's what you mean

psr

@JimmyHoffa That's a little yuck too. Also, there is already a lot of issues in current implementation do to DataGridView handling color in different event than text validation, which is different than cell leave, etc. And business logic is really really complicated so breaking it across event handlers is a mess.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/…

you'll get better event handling out of the backing DataTable than the DataGridView

right now you're using eventing from the DataGridView to change things it sounds like

psr

@JimmyHoffa I was typing up similar remark.

This app has almost all client side data stored in UI controls. It's awful.

Jimmy Hoffa

the DataGridView can have rendering properties based on the data it's also displaying, and the DataTable gives you the backing data management to update those rendering property columns easily

@psr screams for an MVVM approach

ViewModels have extra rendering info you don't have in Models, right now you're putting your Models into your UI effectively making your Model, View, and ViewModel all represented in the same object

(if I'm understanding you correctly)

psr

10:23 PM

@JimmyHoffa Which is what I'm trying to refactor to. The question is whether built in data binding will deal well with this. Not thrilled with putting properties in invisible cells, but I suppose it could be better than manual two way binding

(If you can call it refactor when there are no unit tests. They are nigh impossible to write at present though).

MVVM would help that as well.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr you can put rich objects into data columns and have the DataGridView only displaying the displayable property for each of those richer columns while using the other info in the rich objects for that rendering behaviour

psr

@JimmyHoffa Oh. That's not as bad as I thought. So no cell is created for those properties?

(The properties that aren't displayable)

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr to my recollection you can tell a DataGridView how to go from ColumnValue (object) to displayable value (string)

psr

@JimmyHoffa Not that I've run across. Seems like a feature you would really want though. Let the Googling commence...

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr if for no other reason than to turn 100.25000000 into "$100.25"

psr

10:30 PM

@JimmyHoffa Might be different how you do those 2 cases. First case appears to use a type descriptor provider, second just formatting.

Jimmy Hoffa

10:52 PM

@psr aye, if such facility isn't available... hidden cells..it's uglyish, but do remember...you're working on some DataGridView WinForms junk... it's no MUMPS but it's still ancient and trashy to an extent

hidden cells is kind of par for the course of WinForms development was done back then

kludgey hiding state here and there just like how people used to use hidden form fields in web pages...

psr

11

Q: Is it possible to bind complex type properties to a datagrid?

How would I go about binding the following object, Car, to a gridview? public class Car { long Id {get; set;} Manufacturer Maker {get; set;} } public class Manufacturer { long Id {get; set;} String Name {get; set;} } The primitive types get bound easy but I have found no way of d...

c# .net data-binding

Pretty helpful. I guess you don't need cells to hold data.

Robert Harvey

11:15 PM

If you want a generalized mechanism for binding and editing an arbitrary object, a PropertyGrid is a better choice.

It's the same grid you see in Visual Studio when you right-click/properties on something.

But you can also hand it any arbitrary object, and it will build a UI for it. You can exert some control over how it builds that UI by decorating the object's class with certain attributes.

psr

Not editing an arbitrary object, just having a ViewModel that for each column specifies the value, as usual, but also specifies the back color, tool-tip, etc. It's displaying specific data.

Robert Harvey

It's a Winforms DataGridView?

psr

Yes.

I'm trying to move from all data stored within grid and grid events drive everything to some kind of testable controller.

If I use built-in data binding I have to figure out a decent way to "bind" things other than the pure value, since the controller needs to control other cell properties as well.

Robert Harvey

ACK!

12

Q: A Living Sound Effect Library

I don't know if any of you have seen this but I just found it while looking up bird songs on youtube and I was pretty amazed.. Bird Songs Video Link