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12:16 AM
we've had some good questions, we should start posting some of them to Reddit
not all at once, maybe once a week
 
<-- doesn't have account
but that's a good idea
as long as you post :)
 
^ should make an account
 
yeah, probably true
 
it also helps if we can get a few up votes when it's posted
 
I'm curious about the 1024 that keeps popping up in your usernames.
@KyleCronin true.
ok, i'll make an account now
 
12:18 AM
well, it doesn't "keep popping up" so much as I used to use "cronin1024" a lot
I picked it when I was younger than you
 
any particular reason for it?
 
the 1024 is simply the number of bytes in a kilo byte
 
unless you work at Apple :P
 
true
well, the fashion at the time was <word><number>
so for the word I chose my last name, the number I chose because I liked computers
 
k, upvoted
can I see the score on the post overall?
ah, over to the right
 
12:22 AM
this post was submitted on 30 Jul 2011
7 points (81% like it)
9 up votes 2 down votes
 
I've got 9 and 3
I wonder why you would dislike it
 
it's not personal
for every submission that gets more than a few up votes, there's always some downvotes
 
any particular reason why? #imnewhere
 
I suspect that it's some people that are taking advantage of the feature that you can get Reddit to hide stuff you've downvoted
 
ah
 
12:24 AM
no idea, but take any thread on the front page and most of them hover around 66% like
 
I guess that's what happens with no cost to downvote.
 
yeah
 
(and that man page tip is awesome!)
 
yeah
I've apparently been saying "yeah" a lot today
 
12:27 AM
indeed
 
^ ta-da
 
quite so
 
:P
I hear a lot of "And.... yeah."
 
you should try actually using your reddit account
 
I voted on the stuff in your post
 
12:31 AM
they have lots of anti-spam vote detection
 
so I should vote on other stuff to fool 'em?
 
if you post, comment, etc then your account appears much less likely to be a sock puppet
that too
you're not Fredo5227 are you? ;)
 
noop
haha, I like how it automatically upvotes your own posts
 
it sort of assumes you want to do that
and it starts all the posts off at a score of 1 instead of 0 like SE
0 makes sense to a programmer, but most other people are used to enumerating things starting at 1 instead
4 down votes now :/
the inline spell correction in Lion adds a space between "up" and "down" and "votes"
 
Really? Mine isn't...
 
12:38 AM
no?
it doesn't work at the beginning of a sentence
but say something like "I like down votes"
 
Ahh, just not in Chrome.
 
hello @vschum welcome to the Ask Different Chat
 
^ that.
How do you do?
 
maybe he's the quiet type
 
you are doing that too much. try again in 1 minute.
bah.
@KyleCronin It would seem so.
.
Is that a new user restriction, or can you really only comment like once every 5 mins?
 
12:44 AM
hm, I've gotten rate warnings like that before, but usually it says I can try again in 1 second or something like that
 
that was for a comment
 
I don't remember a message blocking me for a whole minute
oh, yes, that's not new
it was added IIRC around the time Robin Chapman was abusing the comment system on Math.SE
 
:P
 
so they decided to make him wait a minute between each comment
 
make sense.
But, it started at 6 mins...
that seems excessive.
maybe it'll go away once I prove I'm not a spambot.
 
12:46 AM
hopefully
though I'm yet to be convinced of that
@Nathan it just occurred to be that you might have been talking about Reddit
if that's the case, I have to say that I haven't come across any instances of rate limiting in my use, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have some limits for new users
which I haven't been in 4 years
 
 
1 hour later…
2:14 AM
yea, I was talking about reddit
 
 
6 hours later…
8:01 AM
A question about official site titles … at discussions.apple.com/message/15773451#15773451 I referred to the 'Apple' area of Stack Exchange. More recently I bookmarked the following:
… and now, this room which seems to have the official title "Ask Different Chat". So, is 'Ask Different' gaining greatest favour? (I do like it.)
 
8:41 AM
@GrahamPerrin though the official name of this site is "Ask Different", it is also sometimes referred to as "Apple.SE" or the Apple Stack Exchange site. This is because that was the name of the site until the public launch earlier this year, and also because most Stack Exchange sites are don't get a different name upon launch and are referred to as <subject> Stack Exchange
"Apple.SE" and "Apple Stack Exchange" aren't wrong per se, but they're not as correct as "Ask Different", especially when referred to outside the network
 
@KyleCronin excellent answers, thank you. Could you post something, maybe a separate answer, under the question? meta.apple.stackexchange.com/q/205/8546
I see your answers above as different from meta.apple.stackexchange.com/questions/205/official-site-title/… only because that answer involved the domain and a different tag line
(I like the tag line 'Answers for your Apple questions'.)
 
the post you reference is a discussion from back before the site officially launched when we were deciding on the name. The top answer, which is mine, is where I put forth the name "Ask Different"
however, you are correct that there is no post or page that explains what the official name of the site is, but since the name is in the logo it should be fairly obvious
and finally, the domain askdifferent.com does work and redirects to the apple.stackexchange.com URL
 
The visual header is clear enough but (personal habit) I always see the title as above everything else. Hence the confusion.
 
8:56 AM
I agree that the confusion is annoying
 
I half-expected a green tick in jin's question. All clear to me now
not annoying :-) just getting my head around it before I begin promoting (I can't imagine finding anything better than … than … what's it called hehehe
Ask Different!
 
I've been pushing for all the remaining places where "Apple" is used to be replaced with "Ask Different", including the domain, but without much success:
9
Q: Please change name of site from "Apple" to "Ask Different"

Kyle CroninThe new "mobile" template, among other things, replaces the site logo with the name of the site in text. However, the Stack Exchange engine still thinks that this site is called "Apple", which results in users visiting Ask Different on their iPhones being served a page that looks nothing like Ask...

 
/me bookmarks
 
maybe if you posted in there how confused you initially were, it might get some additional attention :)
 
I lack the reputation (fairly new) but will certainly do so in due course :)
 
8:59 AM
IIRC, anyone can answer a question
is that not true for the meta sites?
 
At meta.apple.stackexchange.com/q/433/8546 for me at the moment, both > You must have at least 5 reputation on Apple to answer a question.
and > Vote up requires 15 reputation
 
hmm, I was not aware of that. good to know, though it's unfortunate you can't post anything
 
probably better than spam though
 
Hm, I don't think that the site metas would be of interest to spammers
maybe they want to make sure that people posting in the metas are part of the community of the parent site?
but that's just speculation
 
OK, probably my final question for the day …
apple.stackexchange.com/faq doesn't mention Super User in any special way; superuser.com/faq doesn't mention Ask Different in any special way; meta.superuser.com/questions/2967/… ("official policy") seems to clarify that Super User would like more Mac OS X questions.
I understand that nothing should be migrated needlessly. To someone (not me) who's new to the caboodle, what do people think is the best way of steering to one or the other to ask or answer a question?
 
9:07 AM
there is some overlap between the scope of Ask Different and Super User. Mainly, Ask Different is for Apple and Super User is for computers, which means question about Macs fall under the scope of both sites.
 
OK. I guess that I should promote Ask Different, whilst maintaining awareness of Super User and the overlap.
(Promote without poaching ;-)
 
the overlap is only an issue when people try to move on-topic questions from one site to another
 
so for example, people that are trying to move Mac questions from Super User to Ask Different
the moderators are understandably concerned about that happening
but apart from that, the fact that there is some overlap doesn't mean anything
feel free to promote one or the other or both sites
but if you're going to be promoting in an Apple context, like your post on the Apple discussion board, then it would make more sense to promote Ask Different as there's other Apple stuff that we allow (iOS, etc) that Super User does not
 
+1 to that concern, especially if I begin linking to (say) a particular answer under a question. I assume that the permalink to that particular question would not redirect to the answer after the move …
… or when (exceptionally) a question moves, do the answers not move?
 
9:11 AM
when a question moves, the answers move with it
 
but I believe that if you permalinked to an answer, that the permalink would redirect to the question on the other site
however, most moves happen very soon after the question is asked and before any answers are added
 
hmm I wonder. The one thing I stumbled across today that was 'migrated', I didn't gain that impression. But I'm making my head spin thinking too much on day #2 :-)
 
there has not historically been much of a problem with established questions with good answers moving between our sites
do you remember what question it was?
 
one moment … I'll edit this line
 
9:17 AM
ok so that looks like someone asked a question about Stack Overflow on Stack Overflow
questions about Stack Overflow go on Meta Stack Overflow, so it was migrated there
and judging by the times, it happened 3 minutes after it was asked
 
back to iOS for a moment … user might view iPad as a computer, but Super User would prefer iPad questions elsewhere because iOS was primarily phone-oriented, yes?
 
yes
I think it's kind of an odd distinction too, but that's what the community has chosen
if you were to ask a question about your iPad on Super User, it would very quickly be migrated to Ask Different
 
That level of oddness I can accept with pleasure. With pleasure compared to … endless blah about leatherette UIs ;)
 
OK, something else. There's probably a meta question somewhere about this but I'm not sure how to seek the question. Is there on someone's development calendar, a way for the related items presented by Ask Different to show some related items from another vertical (say, Super User)?
 
9:27 AM
that feature does not presently exist
 
I imagine a small subset (below what's related in Ask Different) rather than a mix from the two stacks
 
yeah, because of the relatively small overlap in relation to all of Stack Exchange, I don't think that it would be a high priority feature
 
If the question/feature has been asked/proposed, am I most likely to find it in meta.stackoverflow.com ?
 
yes
 
Agreed, not a priority, I'm just curious.
 
9:28 AM
I was about to suggest looking there
 
OTOH … a widget for Apple Support Communities to show quality related content from other domains would be a welcome addition. I doubt that ASC would buy it though!
 
yeah, I doubt that Apple would allow for something on their site they don't completely control
well I'm getting tired, but if you have any further questions you can just post them here and I'm sure someone will be able to answer them eventually (it may not be immediate, there's not always people in this room)
 
Nothing more today, you've been great, thanks!
/me is accustomed to long waits in IRC
 
glad I could help, and thanks for your help in promoting the site!
 
pleasure
 
9:56 AM
For anyone, a basic question about this 'Ask Different Chat'. Is this chat area: (a) focused on, or oriented to, the Stack Exchange aspects of Ask Different; or (b) more broadly a place for any reputable user of Ask Different to chat about questions that are (or might be) within the Ask Different area?
Info for this chat chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/38/ask-different-chat doesn't answer the question; and from the foot of the page chat.stackexchange.com/faq answers more broadly (without reference to Ask Different).
A glance at chat.stackexchange.com/search?room=38&q=products suggests (b) but I'd like to check before promoting. Thanks.
 
 
5 hours later…
2:49 PM
@KyleCronin Hey, nice! We're near the top on Reddit.
 
 
3 hours later…
5:23 PM
I broke my streak again :/.
@Nathan The install DVDs (Leopard, Snow Leopard) have always been ridiculously slow.
@Nathan 1024 has never been the amount of bytes in a kilobyte. that's 1000. 1024 bytes are in a *kibi*byte.
which, fyi, is short for kilo binary byte, IIRC
 
5:49 PM
@VxJasonxV yeah, but this was even worse!
It took at least 30 secs just to show me the list of disks (using option key)
 
@Nathan (it seems that the answer to my question above is (b))
 
@VxJasonxV xkcd.com/394
@GrahamPerrin Yep, definitely B
 
Sure.
You got any questions in particular?
 
@Nathan nope I think everything is answered for this newcomer :-)
 
5:53 PM
Well, stick around :)
Hey, has anyone had luck virtualizing Lion?
 
just curious, are you booting from a home-produced bootable DVD for Lion?
 
@GrahamPerrin Yeah. I burned it from the App Store download.
 
/me has experimented only a little with the most recent VirtualBox
 
@GrahamPerrin Did you get it to work?
Mine wouldn't boot...
 
5:55 PM
@GrahamPerrin Do you have a source for that?
 
@Nathan re: not bootable, I'm not sure why but in some environments the burn may fail. Your burn succeeded?
 
Yeah, I burned and booted from my DVD just fine.
But my VirtualBox Lion VM wouldn't boot.
 
@Nathan re caution, (linked from the answer) identi.ca/conversation/76905136#notice-79505996 the gist of it is, digging deep enough reveals the likeliest explanation (from Apple) for me happily hosing my FileVault 2 installation through **re**installation from a hacked USB flash drive
I tested just one thing, with that hunch. Suspect that promoters of the hack have not tested in a wide range of environments … make sense?
@Nathan a hint re: bootable DVD, for VirtualBox purposes it's now possible to use .dmg files for boot purposes. But here I found that …
 
Hmm, interesting thread.
I have tested mine, and it's worked fine.
We'll see, I guess.
 
:-) early days of Lion, I guess that the majority of people have used their home-produced media only for installation, or for reinstallation without FileVault 2. FileVault 2 just one example of where, for reinstallation, Recovery HD must be not external. Maybe other examples will arise, I haven't had (probably will not have) time to test.
 
6:04 PM
Hmm, I haven't tested reinstallation with FileVault.
good point.
 
The FileVault 2 example had, for me, a very blunt and unmistakable effect: system unusable. Didn't bother me, as I was prepared with a quick workaround.
 
What was the workaround?
 
Defocusing from FileVault 2 example: my concern is that there'll be a whole 'generation' of installations that may have far more subtle, less blunt side-effects of not following Apple's method.
 
Well, since the recovery disk downloads the OS from the Internet, I don't think that'll be a big problem.
 
Results from my test suggested that damage arising from use of the hacked USB flash drive was not simply undone by a subsequent reinstallation using Apple's method.
 
6:08 PM
When you say "hacked", what do you mean?
 
In an ideal world I'll never need to post the workaround as an answer to a question in Apple Exchange :-)
 
Mine (a DVD) isn't hacked...
 
hacked in the nicest sense …
 
how so?
 
6:10 PM
ok, but how is your USB drive hacked?
 
many people (not just you, Nathan) are hobby-hacking something out from the .app and testing "the limits of what can be done"
 
Ohhh, you're referring to getting inside the .app bundle.
I see
 
it's so simple that people don't think of it as a hack. One moment …
In Apple Support Communities, which I'm mostly stepping away from, I used a rocking chair metaphor:
(I'm a little terse in that conversation. Tsk tsk.)
 
Thanks for the link.
I totally get what you're saying and agree that everyone should be careful.
I do think I'll stick with my DVD for now, as it's worked fine in my testing (under my system) and it's better than nothing at all.
 
(Hurrah for Ask Different Chat!)
What's the black star? A favourite by someone other than me?
 
6:19 PM
Yep
"star as useful/interesting"
 
Uh now I'm confused I see gold stars in the sidebar. And white stars.
 
Gold is stuff you've starred. White is "pinned" by a moderator.
 
perfect ty
@Nathan back to Lion VirtualBox guest, you still have headspace for that?
 
Yeah
got any ideas?
 
wuala.com/grahamperrin/public/2011/07/31/e/?mode=gallery screenshot 001 just a hint that since the most recent VirtualBox can work directly with .dmg files, it's probably unnecessary to include a burn to DVD as part of your experiment
However AFAIR I had no joy with booting a Lion VM from that particular .dmg
 
6:29 PM
Yeah, I gave it the .dmg as a source disk.
 
/me thinks out loud … somewhere in the VirtualBox area I shared a hint that might help some users to get started with a Snow Leopard Server VM … let's see if I can find it, maybe a clue to kickstarting a Lion guest … also consider setting the guest to something other than a Mac for a while; it almost certainly will not work whilst in that state but the change back to Mac might trick something … some of these memories are vague (sorry)
 
It started booting, asked me for language on the CL, and then died.
(7.5 mins and running on booting from the DVD)
Ah, done at ~8.
 
virtualbox.org/ticket/8700 Mac OS X 10.6 Server still waiting for root device issue — a comment from me there let's set that aside for the moment
… done as in, starting a Recovery OS that might be good for installation?
 
Done as in done booting from my DVD.
The console looked good, except for one line:
Bug: launchtl.c:2408 (24957):30: (dbfd = open(g_job_overrides_db_path, 0_RDNLY | 0_EXECLOCK | 0_CREAT, S_IRUSR | S_IWUSR)) != -1
 
suspect that some lines presented as bugs may be negligible, not specific to a VM environment
so you now have Mac OS X Utilities?
 
6:47 PM
That was from the DVD, not the VM.
I only paid attention because it hung for like a minute after that.
@GrahamPerrin Utilities? Not sure...
 
@Nathan Mac OS X Utilities as pictured at macworld.com.au/help/hands-on-with-lion-recovery-33873 — if you have that then you're probably a happy home hobbyist hacker
 
Oh yeah, I've got that. It's working fine there.
 
/me pulls visage of sulk at a yellow shell prompt in his VirtualBox … forgetting that he had set the guest to be not a Mac
 
7:07 PM
@Nathan if following installation the guest is eating more CPU than expected, see the Snow Leopard Server hint re: AppleIntelCpuPowerManagement.kext at forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31176
 
Hmm, cpu looked fine.
Oh, wait, you're talking about the virtualized one. (duh)
Well, I didn't get far enough to see.
No boot.
 
I can boot from a nohidden copy of
/Volumes/Recovery HD/com.apple.recovery.boot/BaseSystem.dmg
but AFAIR the Apple software will balk at some point …
 
@Nathan it's definitely doing much better than I ever hoped it would
I'm going to make this a regular thing
 
7:25 PM
@Nathan wuala.com/grahamperrin/public/2011/07/31/f/?mode=gallery shot 006 using BaseSystem.dmg the result today hints at damage, which may be true; I had some trouble with a Disk Utility-created copy of the installer .app
 
7:36 PM
looks like someone submitted it to HN as well: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2828778
 
8:15 PM
It's cool that people start discussing it in the threads.
 
I think that's a necessary component to making it popular
which is fine
although when this dies down I want to go back through the threads and post anything that was mentioned on SE if it wasn't already
It's surprising how many sites insist I need Flash to view their videos, yet they work just fine in Safari once I pretend it's an iPad. Why not just serve up HTML5 video to all Safari visitors? The once-ubiquity of Flash is long over - OS X doesn't even ship with it anymore, and Windows (IIRC) never has.
 
 
2 hours later…
10:48 PM
Please, what reputation is required to enable (a) commenting on a question, (b) commenting on another user's answer?
 
you need 50 reputation to leave comments on answers, questions, and answers on questions that aren't your own
(you can see the full list of what the reputation levels are here)
 
@KyleCronin: thank you — I had looked at the FAQ, didn't expand that answer because I knew what reputation is. Expected find the answer re privileges under apple.stackexchange.com/privileges
OK I see it now
d'uh
 
the /privileges page shows how far you are %-wise from getting a particular feature
 
11:21 PM
I asked a question earlier, now can't find it. About Core Storage, meta.apple.stackexchange.com/search?q=%22Core+Storage%22 doesn't find the question. If the question was deleted, would there be a signal to me?
 
users are not notified when their questions are deleted
however, your question has not been it's right here: apple.stackexchange.com/questions/19429/…
not sure why it wasn't coming up in search
oh, I know
you were searching meta.apple.stackexchange.com, not apple.stackexchange.com
 
Oh that's a massive relief
 
it does seem like it might a programming-ish question, have you tried Stack Overflow?
 
We've gotten tons of traffic from reddit and hackernews these last few days.
Actually, more from HN than reddit.
 
yeah, HN really drives traffic
but I'm just amazed at how popular it got
I didn't even post it on HN - I didn't think it would take, but I'm glad it did
 
11:35 PM
We should definitely do this more often.
Not spammy often, but maybe every other week or so?
 
that sounds about right
 
@KyleCronin I'll search there (and Super User). I aimed that particular question at Apple Exchange because someone might suggest that it can be done with Activity Monitor or something else not programmer-oriented
 
yeah, that sounds fine. it's not off topic for this site, but I just thought I'd let you know that there might be a programming solution
 

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