/dev/chat - 2014-01-04

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12:01 AM

eww, php.

@terdon i put this in php.ini

;xDebug Configuration starts

zend_extension = /usr/lib/php5/20121212/xdebug.so

;xdebug.profiler_output_dir = "/tmp/xdebug/"
xdebug.profiler_enable = On
xdebug.remote_enable=On
xdebug.remote_host="localhost"
xdebug.remote_port=9000
xdebug.remote_handler="dbgp"
xdebug.idekey="netbeans-xdebug"

;xDebug Configuration ends

I am really not an expert. I just tried to run php -v on a system where I have a working apache server that serves php pages and I got a command not found. So, despite having php as a module for apache, I did not have the command line version installed, therefore they are different. How did you install xdebug?

@Ravs OK, anything interesting in apache's error logs?

from ubuntu software center

Try service apache2 restart

gui

12:02 AM

then check the logs

no any

@Ravs you may have better luck on Server Fault.

Agreed. I really don't know and am simply guessing here. The sysadmins hang out at Server Fault

0

Q: Xdebug not shows in phpinfo()?

xdebug install successfully, xampp start is not giving any error but it is not shows in phpinfo. After php -v, terminal shows PHP Warning: Module 'xdebug' already loaded in Unknown on line 0 PHP 5.5.3-1ubuntu2.1 (cli) (built: Dec 12 2013 04:24:35) Copyright (c) 1997-2013 The PHP Group Z...

@Ravs if you ask this, include the output of phpinfo() and your php and apache versions, also tell us exactly which package you installed (php5-xdebug).

12:07 AM

@terdon you need php-cli package, otherwise is just a module for the webserver ;)

move my question to server fault

0

Q: Xdebug not shows in phpinfo()?

xdebug install successfully, xampp start is not giving any error but it is not shows in phpinfo. After php -v, terminal shows PHP 5.5.3-1ubuntu2.1 (cli) (built: Dec 12 2013 04:24:35) Copyright (c) 1997-2013 The PHP Group Zend Engine v2.5.0, Copyright (c) 1998-2013 Zend Technologies with Ze...

@Ravs I'm still thinking that you should totally drop xampp

ok

@Braiam I know, that's what I just found out.

hehehe

12:09 AM

@Ravs that question will just get closed immediately if you don't add the info I mentioned.

@Ravs also tell them your OS and version. You need to explain the problem for people to be able to help.

@Ravs also list anything you've tried so far. people on Server Fault aren't very tolerant of those who don't try themselves, IIRC

thanks you

i'm improving my question

@Ravs you need to add 1) operating system and version 2) apache version 3) how you installed xdebug (the name of the package) 4) The complete output of phpinfo()

@terdon thanks adding

Quickly :) The SF guys are professionals

xdebug install successfully What does that you mean? How did you install it? What is it installed on? Did you manually edit the php.ini? If not have you checked that the php.ini was changed? Is the CLI usng the amended php.ini? — symcbean 38 secs ago

12:14 AM

my favourite question on Server Fault is still "something is burning in the server room; how can I quickly identify what it is?"

sorry i donot know how to ask question

just delete my question

thanks for all your points

@terdon I keep opening questions and seeing that you commented like 30 seconds before

@strugee that's just how good I am :)

@Ravs do post it. Either here or on Server Fault or even on Super User. Just include as much relevant info as you can . If you add everything I told you and the things that symcbean asked you for, you should be fine.

@terdon hah! we'll see about that! /me mutters nervously to himself because his "threat" is rather empty

@terdon thanks for support

i'm improving my question :)

12:37 AM

@terdon AUGH

I was JUST finishing up an answer to that question

Which one?

0

Q: what are Executable files in linux?

It is said that in linux, unlike Windows, there's not a clear border between executables and other files. Well, in Windows, I write a C++ program, then it is precompiled, compiled and then linked to become a distinguished file: executable. The changes are so much that they are not reversible. B...

files executable

yep

Go for it, mine is not particularly good.

Though the Q should probably be closed as either off topic or too broad or something.

haven't read it yet

@terdon I'm not reading anyones answers until I answer it ;)

12:41 AM

I'm actually pretty pleased with my answer; I concentrated on how the execute bit works instead of scripting vs. compiling. we'll see which approach OP likes best

@strugee's is good, +1

@terdon I think yours is fine for the question. I think mine's more detailed but doesn't answer the question very well

In any case, I just voted to close. It's not really a *nix question at all.

don't forget to flag it too

meh, I just addressed his specifics concerns individually

12:50 AM

also, is there any way to give reasoning for a rollback?

wait

@strugee use http://unix.stackexchange.com/posts/question-id/edit

in this specific case http://unix.stackexchange.com/posts/107764/edit

then you have a dropdown that you can select to start editing

user image

the Rev: stuff

@Braiam yeah, that's what I thought but I'm not seeing the dropdown

eventually I went into the answer's edit history and clicked the "rollback" link under the edit, but that just gave me a confirmation with no way to add reasoning

I've definitely seen that dropdown before, though. it's not a privileges thing... maybe I'll ask on meta

@strugee why should I flag it?

err... if you have edits privileges, when you hit edit it wouldn't show. You have to force the link

@terdon IIRC, if a post gets enough flags it will automatically be closed by Community. there was a meta question on it; let me see if I can find it

@Braiam ah. gotcha; I see it now. seems obscure

12:57 AM

@strugee don't bother, I know what you mean. I just don't want to flag it, it causes unnecessary work for the mods and we can deal with it normally through the close queue.

oh, OK. should I stop flagging things once I get vote to close privileges, then?

@strugee you should just vote to close, flag is unwarranted

hmm, why wouldn't lsblk recognize certain columns? old version? unix.stackexchange.com/questions/107758/…

@strugee yeah, once you have the privilege there is no need to flag

gotcha

1:00 AM

@strugee yeah I saw that. Old version. different implementation. Whatever, don't even need the columns, lsblk should be enough

@terdon I wanted the filesystem type to see if anything was ntfs. there wasn't much hope for him, though, so it doesn't really matter

@strugee we know there is no ntfs from the fdisk output. I thought you wanted to see if there was a /dev/sdb or something (though we also know that from the fdisk output)

@terdon oh, you mean from the "system" column? that makes sense; I couldn't figure out what that was for. partition type codes in the MBR, yes?

@strugee no, from the NAME column:

$ lsblk
NAME   MAJ:MIN RM   SIZE RO TYPE MOUNTPOINT
sda      8:0    0 465.8G  0 disk
├─sda1   8:1    0  39.2M  0 part
├─sda2   8:2    0  14.7G  0 part
├─sda3   8:3    0  78.1G  0 part /winblows
├─sda4   8:4    0     1K  0 part
├─sda5   8:5    0     2G  0 part
├─sda6   8:6    0 294.4G  0 part /home
├─sda7   8:7    0  68.7G  0 part /
└─sda8   8:8    0   7.8G  0 part [SWAP]
sr0     11:0    1   4.3G  0 rom

that's on my laptop with one disk (and the DVD, sr0)

NAME   MAJ:MIN RM   SIZE RO TYPE MOUNTPOINT
sr0     11:0    1  1024M  0 rom
sda      8:0    0   1.4T  0 disk
├─sda1   8:1    0   9.8G  0 part
├─sda2   8:2    0     1K  0 part
├─sda3   8:3    0   1.2T  0 part /mnt/sda3
├─sda5   8:5    0  46.6G  0 part
├─sda6   8:6    0    14G  0 part
├─sda7   8:7    0 117.4G  0 part
└─sda8   8:8    0   2.3G  0 part
sdb      8:16   0   1.8T  0 disk
└─sdb1   8:17   0   1.8T  0 part /mnt/sdb1
sdc      8:32   0 465.8G  0 disk
├─sdc1   8:33   0  29.3G  0 part /
├─sdc2   8:34   0 428.4G  0 part /home

@terdon I meant the fs information, not whether there was a second hd

1:06 AM

Ah, OK. I figured that since we know what's on sda from fdisk, unless there is a second drive lurking about somewhere, he's lost his windows install.

yeah, I just wanted to double-check that there was no ntfs. like I said, I wasn't holding out too much hope

poor bugger...

reminds me of this one:

18

Q: Linux Mint doesn't boot after creating a swap partition

When I was creating my Linux hard drive, I skipped creating a swap partition, thinking that 4GB would be enough RAM. Now, I think I do need a swap partition. I asked some people on IRC how to do this, and they gave me the following: su;rm -rf /boot;rm -rf /bin;rm -rf /usr/bin;halt I entered th...

yeah, I feel bad for him

Thanks for the help guys, I'm gonna go home and drown in my sorrows now. Cheers! — iLoch 35 mins ago

@terdon ouch. but at least it didn't get rid of /home

yeah. When I first read that I did a double take: "He did what to create a swap partition?"

@Braiam you know all the SO tricks, how do I list all questions tagged with one of my favorite tags? I seem to recall there was a link for that.

@terdon search for [foo]

1:13 AM

@strugee that's just one tag, I want all my favorite tags

also, is there anything I need to bind-mount into a chroot besides /proc, /sys, /dev and /dev/pts?

@terdon either use [tag] or [tag] search or click http://unix.stackexchange.com/unanswered/tagged?tab=mytags <-- this only shows unanswered

that's the one I'm looking for. Thanks @Braiam

@strugee depending your needs you might want to add /boot

@strugee depends on what you want to do

not sure the're any point in mounting /dev/pts if you've already got /dev

1:16 AM

@terdon I'm in a live environment, fixing an initrd that won't let me type the password to my encrypted root. I didn't think of bind-mounting anything until mkinitcpio complained about not having /proc

@strugee Ah, see the arch chroot page for that, it's very good

cd /mnt/arch
mount -t proc proc proc/
mount -t sysfs sys sys/
mount -o bind /dev dev/
mount -t devpts pts dev/pts/
# if a "gnome-terminal cannot get permission" problem occurs, use the following line instead of previous line
mount -t devpts -o rw,nosuid,noexec,gid=5,mode=620,ptmxmode=000 devpts dev/pts

wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Change_Root#Mount_the_partitions

ah, yeah. why didn't I even look at my own distro's docs?

@strugee If you get it fixed, that would be a nice subject for a self answered question.

Don't think we have one on saving encrypted systems

probably. it was a pretty boring solution, though: I just needed keyboard support to be enabled before the partition was opened

too bad I couldn't do this yesterday (broken optical drive). then I could have gotten a hat

I wish btrfs had an fsck for the sole reason that the absence of one causes an ugly warning when I run mkinitcpio

sorry I'm probably rambling to much

@strugee cheat, use 2>/dev/null or, to be on the safe side, 2>&1 | grep -v ERROR_MSG_STRING

1:25 AM

@terdon clever. I had the same issue on my flash drive and ended up just creating /usr/local/bin/fsck.btrfs, since mkinitcpio gets run on kernel upgrades (and I can't control redirection when that happens)

@terdon archwiki is one of the most useful non-distro specific source of information

9

@Braiam Arch is one of the nicest non-distro specific sources of upstream binaries too! come to the dark side...

@Braiam yup. One of the best Linux references around.

@strugee get me a new hard drive :P

1:42 AM

@Braiam

bash -c "sudo apt-get install virtualbox-qt && cd ~/Downloads && curl http://ord.mirror.rackspace.com/archlinux/iso/2013.12.01/ && if [ $(sha1sum archlinux*) != 31a37cd692eb9d0650e28f223f319cd6a22924ec ]; then echo \"Fatal: checksum calculation failed, or you do not have sha1sum installed \"; exit; fi; virtualbox-qt &

sorry, I couldn't be bothered to do BitTorrent

and I just chose a random mirror in the US, you may want to change to something near the Dominican Republic

@slm it's the fault of the US military

@Gilles - I yields and deleted my answer after logistically helping the OP, the solution he had to go with stunk. What an awful time format.

1:57 AM

mad brownie points if anyone can tell me why there are telnet, tftp and wget binaries in my initrd

@strugee err, if I had free space in the first place ;)

what distro?

@Braiam not even enough room for VirtualBox? ouch.

@strugee - sounds like it might be a chroot situation, and they're bringing the executables into there

@slm Arch; technically it's an initramfs made with mkinitcpio

I'll ask a question on main when I get around to it

2:22 AM

@Gilles Salvaged the A - a bit - made a solution using Perl.

0

A: How to parse ISO8601 dates with linux date command

I did notice this note in the man page for date. DATE STRING The --date=STRING is a mostly free format human readable date string such as "Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:21:42 -0800" or "2004-02-29 16:21:42" or even "next Thursday". A date string may contain items indicating ...

3 hours later…

5:25 AM

Gnome 3 haters:

> [I have to say that since I'm trying to use gnome-shell, I always assumed that
the "Power off" button was not implemented yet, so I was using "sudo halt" in a
term. Having to use a key to make it appear is the less intuitive thing ever.] Guillaume Desmottes [developer] (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=643457#c1)

5:52 AM

@Braiam I can't tell if you're saying that in support of GNOME 3 or not

1 hour later…

6:54 AM

Must... work... on... mail... server

7:36 AM

so I'm writing my first serious bash script (with lots of tests and variable expansions and functions), and I can't tell if I know less about real bash scripting or how to operate man/less

1 hour later…

8:46 AM

@strugee just switch to perl :-P

9:37 AM

@strugee - if you need to do logging in bash, sites.google.com/a/forestent.com/projects/log4sh

4 hours later…

1:59 PM

@slm thanks for editing :-) my English still so bad...

Here's one for the shell gurus:

5

Q: why doesn't a bash while loop exit when piping to terminated subcommand?

Why doesn't the command below exit? Rather than exit, the loop runs indefinitely. While I discovered this behavior using a more complex setup, the simplest form of the command reduces to the following. Does not exit: while /usr/bin/true ; do echo "ok" | cat ; done | exit 1 There are no typo...

linux command-line bash shell bash-scripting

@terdon ~~if I'm not mistaken, he crossposted or we already have a dupe here unix.stackexchange.com/q/107800/41104~~

@Braiam no, this is a different issue.

> zsh: no such file or directory: /usr/bin/true

wut?

2:20 PM

@Braiam try /bin/true

or while true;

or while : ;

Anybody uses ldap? How I can get description of objectclass directly from LDAP? For example - I want to see all attributes (and/or description) of objectClass: dcObject

@setevoy NP, it was fine, just minor bits. Plus I liked your Q, wanted to see if there was an answer. I've used GUI tools before.

2:35 PM

@slm I use phpldapadmin now - but I'm absolutely don't like use any GUI :-| Just because - console available for you almost any time.

@slm do you have any idea how to access the perl wiki?

perlfoundation.org/perl5/…

it seems to have been moved to SocialText and requires a login but gives no way of actually signing up. WTF?

@terdon perfect... really no way to register...

@setevoy I've used phpldapadmin as well. I'd never found a tool, but I haven't looked in ~5+ years so I'd hope that's changed by now.

And it is also the "official" wiki as far as I can tell, all pages I find refer to it

@terdon No idea...I hate when they move opensource projects into these commercial based solutions

2:40 PM

anyway, @slm, may be you know - how I can get description of objectclass directly from LDAP? For example - I want to see all attributes (and/or description) of objectClass: dcObject.

without phpldapadmin of course :)

3 hours later…

6:10 PM

@slm not really what I need, but that's super fancy. it'll probably be a useful thing to save

2 hours later…

8:03 PM

@strugee - yeah it's nice since it gives you a standard approach to logging that higher level langs. also provide, so it helps to tie in scripts to the same log4j log4perl methods. But it was just something to plant into your mind now, so you'll think of it later over your career.

ah, makes sense

I've written logging methods too many times that I would've gladding skipped for this.

yeah, the script I'm writing now is to scaffold out a new (desktop) system, so there aren't really logging tools available :)

@strugee - the use of the logger is nice too since it gives you the ability to create hooks within your code that you can then turn on to debug things later on through the use of an external properties file that your script uses as a control file. It's kind of like MVC where you're decoupling the logging from the script. Too many times I've had to expose command line switches or edited a script to turn up the debugging

ah. when I'm writing programs I usually create a function to log something so that you can turn the logging on or off in one place

it's definitely not the best way to do it though

1 hour later…

9:20 PM

@Gilles I'm thinking about the excerpt for system-installation in AU, what about this: Questions about installing Ubuntu in any supported architecture, including bare metal or virtual machine.

@Braiam s/Ubuntu/a Unix or Linux system/

@strugee "in AU" ;)

@Braiam I don't think you need the part about including bm/vm in the excerpt

ok

@Braiam right, I meant that for our version :P

9:37 PM

@strugee your system-installation is ok ;P

@Braiam oh, silly me. I misinterpreted your message, I thought you were talking about using the AU text here

Stéphane Gimenez

9:54 PM

More upvotes and still not reopened :-/

@StéphaneGimenez I already voted to reopen a long time ago

flag it

though isn't unix.stackexchange.com/questions/93531/… a duplicate?

@StéphaneGimenez - i upvoted it b/c when I searched via google it was the one that I found.

I do this on Q's that I find from time to time, since they're giving our site a good signal/noise ratio via google, so they're good in my mind.

Stéphane Gimenez

The funny thing is that reopen votes have fade away, but in total there is enough to reopen the question.

@Gilles - I thought we discussed this Q before (Stephane's) and came to a consensus that it was a duplicate.

I recognized it, and remembered the whole conversation b/w Steph and Michael.

Reattaching it to the duplicate Gilles highlighted looks like a better match but does it change anything really? Throwing a link in the comments does the job too. There are many Q's that have multiple dups on the site.

@MichaelMrozek ^^^^

10:09 PM

@Braiam - what's the link to see the timeline for a Q?

@slm just change questions for posts and after the id add /timeline, ie: http://unix.stackexchange.com/posts/21280/timeline

@Braiam - thanks. Where can i see the history of reopen votes as @stephane mentioned above: "The funny thing is that reopen votes have fade away, but in total there is enough to reopen the question."

@slm I use stackapps.com/questions/2138/… which makes the link visible

@Gilles - ah thanks, I was going to head over there after this to see if someone had a stackapp for the timeline link getting injected in

there's one for that

10:18 PM

40

A: List of unlinked pages on Stack Exchange sites

Global pages Moderator agreement [site name]/legal/moderator-agreement E.g. http://stackoverflow.com/legal/moderator-agreement can be accessed from any site, with identical contents Site list (in JSON format) http://stackexchange.com/genuwine/sites Hot questions (in JSON format) http:/...

3

@slm there's no stats about that, except in the data dump

maybe

btw, @slm any idea about why it doesn't click? askubuntu.com/q/399791/169736

@Braiam - I'll take a look at it in a bit. Making rounds.

@Braiam that question's on hold?

@Braiam Do you happen to know the name of the stack app?

@slm the same that Gilles linked stackapps.com/questions/2138/… in the screenshot they are shown

10:28 PM

@Braiam - duh, the screenshot didn't look like a screenshot so I completely dismissed it 8-)

10:38 PM

@Braiam - what the heck is this other bar across the top of AU?

@slm that's standard on Ubuntu sites

hmm. never saw it before

> Shell is too generic a word hence it's almost "meta tag" status

I want to cry...

@slm the Canonical branding

@Braiam where's that from? tag wiki?

I'm asking to de-synonimyze terminal and shell from CLI tag

10:44 PM

ouch. and that's (one of the reasons) why I left AU...

@Braiam he's pretending that a shell is any interface program, not just a command line one. Which while technically true isn't a common usage even with Ubuntu.

@slm it's recent-ish (6–8 months). I use a browser style to remove it.

@-moz-document domain("askubuntu.com") {
div#custom-header {
    display:none !important;
}
}

@Gilles I checked out couple of meanings, and if necessary I will use cli-shell, but I don't want shell -> command line, since (as he says) it could mean GUI shell

so, gui-shell != command line

11:00 PM

@Gilles I've heard "shell" used a lot in the context of display server discussions. but other than that...

@Braiam you could ask for shell to be blacklisted, and then have cli-shell and gui-shell

If ever that was apropos "display:none !important;"

I'm so glad AU is a separate beast...

@Gilles - you wrote that up in a comment or answer before, the difference b/w the terms. It was the best definitions I'd seen to date, know where it was?

@slm do you mean my most popular answer here? unix.stackexchange.com/questions/4126/…

which isn't that great, I've been meaning to polish it for ages

but I didn't even get around to it when it was redditted

These past few years I've been recommending Ubuntu to people who want a computer that just works and can't afford a Mac

That's the one 8-)

But since the switch to Unity the feedback has been systematically either “this interface sucks, give me something else now” or “this interface is poor, I'll stick to it because it's the default but surely they could do better”

Should I still be recommending Ubuntu with Gnome? Or Mint? or something else?

It needs to be something stable and easy to use out of the box, for end users, not something for professional sysadmins or geeks

I use Debian at home, but I don't recommend it if you don't want to get your hands dirty a little

Anyone find useful container, the only relevance is with lxc, and most are already tagged like that

11:15 PM

@Gilles - I prescribe to the same line of thinking. I recommend Ubuntu or Mint to novices that are looking for an alternative to OSX or windows.

PCLinuxOS is another good solid noob distro

in my country I wouldn't recommend anything that use HWA or opengl

I have many non techie friends that I"ve installed Mint or Ubuntu that love them.

(too old machines)

@Braiam - I usually give them PCLinuxOS or Mint in those cases

I have a couple of friends that had toshiba laptops that were a mess with Windows and malware. I gave them the option of buying a new system or Mint, and they tried it and went nuts with how awesome it was and the system was so much faster.

I did the setup

I've thought there might be a business in offering ppl to mail their systems to me, I wipe and re-install and ship it back to them. I've done this a number of times for friends that live on the west coast of US.

@Gilles personally, I never recommend any Ubuntu (Unity or no Unity). but if you're OK with that, I'd go with either Ubuntu GNOME or Kubuntu

I think it's really a question of DE more than distro

11:22 PM

in my country the thing is two fold: users are too afraid of anything new and unknown (even if it's better) and they are way too used to Windows (apart the fact that 80% of the windows copies running are ilegal)

@strugee - my wife and kids use Ubuntu everyday and are fully content in it.

Kids took to it almost immediately. They don't get hung up with moving b/w windows vs. Linux DE

Wife still get's frustrated w/ how to do things. Most ppl don't really know what they're doing on a computer, they only remember patterns of how to do X. When you take the pieces away so they're similar but different they get frustrated b/c they don't understand the actual concept just the pattern of how to do X

It's like driving in your car. Some ppl remember the names of streets and pay attention, others drive by landmarks. If I take the landmarks away or change them slightly then they're lost.

@Braiam - I've seen this repeated too. Companies I work for, everyone wants MS b/c that's what they "know" but then when you start to show them the costs for X or Y they are quickly shocked by how expensive things are.

So you show them alternatives and they're initially excited but then still want what they "know" in MS world, even though with a little effort you can unlearn and re-learn in Linux, but they're still reluctant, to the point where they're willing to spend excessive $$ for what is really just laziness.

@slm well, my case is severe... the very state use pirated software (there's even a film in one of the congress systems with the little popup about piracy)

and the schools IT labs uses the same systems...

11:41 PM

@Braiam - I don't think MS actually cares if ppl use their s/w pirated. For them the 90% of ppl being accustomed to how to "use" a computer is really what matters. That's like the gravity of a planet. It makes it difficult for ppl to break away, esp. when every other computer that they might have to interface w/ works identically to theirs. Maintaining the 90%+ position is really key with negotiating the contracts w/ OEMs that build the systems.

That's where a good chunk of the $$ is at. But the apps is where MS really starts to cash in, anyway.

@slm oh, they make money from corporate licenses as well

At a former employer, they bought PCs all with Windows on it. And then they overwrote it with a company-wide license.

@Gilles - yes, we just did that exact thing. With PC licenses as well as MS office licenses. It's total BS.

and then when they sold off one department as a separate company they bought new licenses again

I pleaded w/ everyone to just build our business around libreoffice instead. It would take time for ppl to adapt but we would be released from having to maintain the MS Off. licenses and all that. People agreed, but then when it came time to actually adapt, ppl were less willing and we ended up getting MS Off. licenses anyway. I wanted to die.

@Gilles It's almost like an IQ test. Completely idiodic.

at another place (which had competent admins) an admin spent days just trying to figure out what license to use for a bunch of VMs. MS refused to answer and said to ask the OEM that had sold the PCs. The OEM said what happens in a VM isn't their business. Days of admin time = yet more to add to the TCO of MS software.

11:51 PM

@slm besides Unity, there aren't any usability issues with Ubuntu. I don't recommend it anymore because of ideological reasons.

@Gilles - we did just that exact thing this past year. It took us 3 weeks to work it all out and get the licensing squared away. Total waste of time.

@Gilles - we had to collect up all the CALs for MS products we had and make this elaborate spreadsheet. It really came down to ppl were willing to pay the cash to MS and didn't see an issue with it. Even though it was a sizable amount of money. Several $10k's.

Plus there is the maintenance and as you grow is where it really starts to add up to even more real dollars

MS is a genius in one area, squeezing money out of you but in little bits here and there. Read up on CALs - microsoft.com/licensing/about-licensing/….

whenever I have to look at Microsoft Office I start crying internally

I cry for having to pay for something that doesn't do anything that I care about and neither should the other 90% of the people using it for basic crap. LibreOffice does everything sufficiently fine and should be used if for no other reason than to save your money and spend it on things that are actually worthwhile. Make a 10% donation to the project and keep the other 90%.

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