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8:00 AM
> 単語が修飾して・されて、いくつかつながったものを「句」といいます。
I love that して・されて
In English, sometimes we write things like "buy/sell a TV"
 
nice, haha
 
Which of course has led some people to start pronouncing the slash as "slash", giving us a new coordinator (in what is a relatively closed class of words!)
 
yeah, that kind of distribution is pretty common in english
 
"I'll buy slash sell a TV today."
Okay, that sentence is iffy. :-)
But people use slash that way.
I love that.
It always makes me wonder if anyone ever pronounces a 中点
Like, when you read 「単語が修飾して・されて、いくつかつながったものを「句」といいます。」 out loud, what do you do about the dot? You either ignore it or you pause a little?
 
yeah, pause a bit
 
8:03 AM
I've noticed a fairly poor correspondence between the Japanese comma and pauses in speech
 
そうやな~どうかな~
むつかしいな~
読まないよね、普通
 
Like, when people say 1、2回 (another example of zero coordination!), you don't pause for the comma, do you?
 
つづけて「いちにかい」
 
I thought so!
 
I would, haha
for a half-beat
 
8:04 AM
I always say it without pausing
But I'm bad at Japanese. :-)
 
I mean, if I was reading something that has the comma in it, which admittedly is probably different
 
「単語が修飾して・されて、」を「してされて」と続けて読むと、
聞いてる人がわかんないと思う
「本・雑誌を」も「ほんざっしを」っていうと、
「え?なに?」って思う
 
Hehe!
So you pause in those
And definitely don't just ignore it
I should put that in my notes
(A forty-thousand line text file, by now...)
 
人に読んで聞かせるなら、「本や雑誌を」とか「して、あるいはされて、」って読むほうが親切かな
 
but is 「単語が修飾して・されて」 actually zero coordination? isn't the ~て a coordinator?
 
8:09 AM
I think it's like 単語が修飾して・(単語が修飾)されて
In meaning
I guess you can parse it different ways
 
書き言葉なのかも。読むための文章を書くなら、はじめから「したりされたりして」って書いたほうが読みやすいし
 
Oh, that makes sense
 
yeah, that's true, but the て still seems to be causing the coordination. then subject and object(?) (修飾(を)) are being distributed through that coordination.
 
So you wouldn't normally say something like 「〜して、されて、」 (where the commas represent pauses)
@rintaun Yeah, but...
 
普通の会話では言わないと思う・・・
 
8:12 AM
What if you changed it to 「単語が修飾する・される」
Would that be any less valid now that it doesn't have a coordinator?
@ちょこれーと Thank you! That's helpful :-)
 
@snailboat that's a good question! :D
 
My instinct is that する・される parses the same way as して・されて here (ignoring the connection to the following phrase)
So they're in the same kind of relationship
That's why I feel て isn't the coordinator there
You could probably make an argument based on semantics, too.
されて isn't "following" して, and it doesn't have a "loose causal connection"
They're logical alternatives, rather than て-related
 
indeed, I parse it the same way semantically, but I think that in the case of する・される (assuming it is grammatical, which I believe it is) there is a null coordinator, while in the case of して・されて the て is the coordinator
both are coordination, so that the object gets distributed through that coordination isn't terribly surprising
hmm
@snailboat ok, that's an interesting point.
now I have to rethink this again, haha
 
In another sentence, I think して・されて could be coordinated by て
So maybe the semantic argument is the strongest one there
 
yeah, it does seem to be being used in a similar manner to ~たり~たり though... I wonder if that is a more generally applicable usage
 
8:18 AM
I saw another example of 〜たり without a following する the other day, but I didn't write it down
I wish I did. I don't have any examples of that in my notes
Not counting 〜たりとも
 
I have seen, on occasion, ~たり followed by a verb other than する
 
こんなのもあるみたい note.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/detail/n151524
にたようなのも amazon.co.jp/…
 
Ooh, a slash in Japanese
I'm always tempted to use slashes instead of middle dots.
 
or って感じだよね、たぶん
 
It's one of my favorite punctuation marks. (Oh, no! I'm hopelessly nerdy.)
@ちょこれーと In English, the slash symbol is often pronounced or
Sometimes it's not pronounced at all, and other times it's pronounced slash
 
8:23 AM
読むんだ!
へ~
 
It varies from speaker to speaker.
Some people never pronounce it.
 
here's another example of that in a paper: "〈新聞〉の中で書く/読むこと" repo.lib.ryukoku.ac.jp/jspui/bitstream/10519/3015/1/…
 
Hey! Tha's got a こと on only one side
 
yeah
 
But I thought that was only ギリギリ大丈夫! ;-)
I just tried to tab-complete opening that file, and it got stuck at KJ0000 because two other files began with that string...
 
8:25 AM
I don't know, it seems fine to me if it has こと at the end, haha
lol
 
I thought it would be okay when I originally asked about it.
I thought it would distribute over both conjuncts
 
right
 
Ooh, it's even the title.
 
indeed
 
I take it back. 〈Angley quotes〉 are my favorite punctuation.
 
8:27 AM
ahahaha
I'm never sure which kind of quotes to use... I'm pretty sure it's just random and whatever you feel like at the time.
I mean, what else can it be when you basically use half the punctuation on a keyboard (and some others, too!) for quotation?
 
@ちょこれーと And you would pause in all of these, right?
する (pause) される
Or change it to したりされたりする
 
ですね~ つなげては読まない。
 
In English, we pronounce some things differently than they're written. (I mean, pretty much everything, but I'm not talking about spelling)
I'm having trouble thinking of examples
Latin abbreviations like i.e. → "id est" and e.g. → "exempli gratia" at least, are commonly pronounced "that is" and "for example"
 
I pronounce them "i.e." and "e.g." D:
 
Yeah! Some people do that, too
But you sound really pretentious if you actually say "exempli gratia"
 
8:32 AM
2~5人 is common pronounced にからごにん, I believe, which is a similar thing
haha indeed you do
 
おおお
 
And besides, if you expand et al., you have to decide whether al. is "alia", "alii", or "aliae"
A feat which is beyond most pronouncers of stuff.
 
certainly beyond mine, to even have known that! :D
 
ふたりからごにん、って読むかも?
 
sorry, 人 was a bad example maybe
2~5回
 
8:33 AM
Oh, I always get confused with stuff like 2〜5人
にからごかい?
にかいからごかい?
 
yeah, I think it'd generally be にからごかい
 
にかい ないし ごかい
 
わたしは「にかいからごかい」って読む気がする・・・
 
though 人 is an interesting case, since 2人 is ふたり
 
Here is where I demonstrate that I am not a pronouncer of stuff in Japanese.
 
8:34 AM
そうなのよ!
 
I like having the 〜かい on both sides, because I feel like the 〜かい is part of the number word
 
「ふ・・・」ってなってしまう
 
one sec, I'll go do a quick survey. haha
 
で、「2~3回」は「にさんかい」になってしまう
 
At least, that's been my understanding--when you add a counter to a word, it really forms a single new word
Oh, but they're next to each other
So you're pronouncing it like 2、3回?
Is that right?
 
8:37 AM
同じだよね~いいのかな
 
「2〜4回」 would be different?
 
O_o... what about if has 第? e.g. 第2~3回 and 第2~5回
 
Oh god
 
「によんかい」っていわないなあ
 
I've never thought about how to pronounce 〜 when it has 第 before it
@ちょこれーと Okay, phew, that's what I thought :-)
 
8:38 AM
第がついたら?むつかしい!
どうしましょwwww
 
だいにかい ないし だいよんかい
I like saying ないし hehe
I'm not sure I've ever had to pronounce 第2〜4回 before
 
だいにからだいよんかい、か、だいにかいからだいよんかい、になるかも
「だいに、よんかい」っていうとわからない
 
I should probably stick to から instead of ないし, but it's so fun to say
@ちょこれーと But what about 第2〜3回? Can you say だいに、さんかい?
 
だいにからだいさんかい、か、だいに、だいさんかい、かな・・・?
 
It's weird having prefixes AND suffixes on numbers.
English doesn't have either of those.
 
8:44 AM
「第2・3回」のほうがよくありそう
 
I feel like one of them should attach closer, like
[ 第 [ 一回 ] ] or [ [ 第一 ] 回 ]
@ちょこれーと Oh, that makes sense
「第2、3回」も?
 
「第2~4回」とか、「~」は、数字が離れてるときに
 
I just asked my dorm's 寮母 and her first instinct was to read 1~5回 as いちからごかい but then said いちないしごかい is ok as well
lol
 
Aw, no 〜かい on the いち. Poor いち
 
of course reading it as いっかいからごかい she found acceptable as well
but 1~5人 was only ひとり{から・ないし}ごにん
 
8:46 AM
Ooh
 
おおお
 
That's interesting to me because 人 there seems to represent two different morphemes
〜り and 〜にん
But I guess 〜り is in alternation with 〜にん, isn't it
Is ひとり usually analyzed as a suppletive form of いちにん?
 
well, there is the example of 一人前【いちにんまえ】
 
Ooh
There's [ 一人 ] 前 and 一 [ 人前 ]
Coming of age, and one portion of food
Right?
一人前 半人前
一人前 二人前 三人前
(I don't like the translation "coming of age" too much, but I had to put something)
 
yeah, that seems to be a reasonable analysis
it's a hard word =/
 
8:52 AM
Translating lots of stuff is hard.
I always feel like if I write an answer on JLU and include glosses for stuff, then I should include glosses for everything
 
that's the truth
 
And then I always hit some word where I'm not happy with the gloss
So then I think "I should just leave it all in Japanese and make them understand it in Japanese"
 
yeah, I avoid glosses as often as I can, for better or worse
 
Suppletion in Japanese is also an interesting topic
I've seen a lot of different things analyzed as suppletive or not suppletive
Whereas in English people seem to be mostly happy with just calling a few things suppletive
I should ask a question about intonation
 
what is suppletion again? I'm rusty =/
 
8:57 AM
In English, we have the verb go, but no goed
We instead borrow a form of wend, which is went
It's not related by etymology, but it fills in for the gaps in go's paradigm, and it's in robust alternation
So we can say it's a suppletive form of go
Likewise ひとり filling in for いちにん, I think
 
ah ok
 
People also use the term where an etymological connection might be possible but has not been shown
I think
ない is another example, filling in for the missing form *あらない
Whereas if you look at an irregular verb like くれる or いく, the irregular forms (くれ rather than *くれろ, いって rather than *いいて) are not suppletive
 
aha, that makes sense
 
I've been bad and haven't been putting stars next to stuff I should be starring.
 
me too =(
 
9:05 AM
0
A: What separates なき from なし?

user54609なき can never be used to end a sentence. In Classical Japanese, なき is the 連体形 of なし, which basically means it modifies nouns: 海なきところ - a place without an ocean On the other hand, なし is what you use at the end of a sentence: そのところは海なし - that place doesn't have an ocean In the Muromachi ...

I think the question might be asking about なき and なし in modern Japanese, rather than classical...
Since both なき and なし are still around in a limited capacity
And I was thinking 〜なき can be used anywhere 〜ない can be used, as a poetic/literary form
 
aren't they used in modern Japanese in (basically) the same way they were in classical?
 
But now I'm not so sure
@rintaun さあね
I think 〜なし often shows up in lexicalized contexts like 迷いなし (?)
Although I don't actually know if that's lexicalized.
See, I don't know this stuff.
It looks like 名詞+なし
And なし didn't assign a が-role in 文語
So I guess I was just assuming it was fossilized grammar
Can you just stick 〜なし on any noun in modern Japanese?
 
I believe you can, yes... but interestingly, I don't believe it can function like modern 終止形. it becomes an adverb, I think
 
I kinda thought it was like a noun.
 
I think it becomes an adverb?
 
9:16 AM
I've been using the word あるなし each chance I get
 
generally followed by に or で
 
Lessee.
I need to learn this stuff.
I've always just sort of processed 〜なし without ever thinking about it
The Green Goddess has examples for で・と・に・の・だ・∅
The example with nothing following is 貧乏暇なし
I guess that's a single lexical item
 
well then, I stand corrected :D
 
アスピリン・砂糖なしの錠剤 an aspirin-free, sugar-free tablet
I'm going to write that one down :-)
 
yeah, now that you mentioned it, I have definitely heard and even used なしの
 
9:22 AM
My brain didn't accept 〜なしだ without a fight
「文句なしだな」
Oh, nice question about 〜たり〜たり!
 
:D
 
I was taught that that is ungrammatical. But then, things always seem to get more complicated when you explore the corners
Sometimes I don't know where my metaphors are going. Sometimes I think they go there without me
> 立ったり座ったり働く
> 立ったり座ったりして働く
> 話したり笑ったり食べる
> 話したり笑ったりして食べる
 
ohhh, interesting
I didn't notice that you can just shove して in there
 
I wanted to call it してveling just now, but I realized that would be unfortunate if you romanized it
Oh, shove, not shovel.
I like shoveling して into sentences.
 
ahaha
it's hard for me not to read "して" in that sentence as english "shite"
 
9:28 AM
Haha, I'm sorry!
I would say ごめんください, but I recently learned that it doesn't mean the same thing as ごめんなさい
 
nope not at all lol
 
I also learned that a long time ago
Sometimes I learn things a bunch of times.
 
fair enough
thinking about it, I'm not sure I've ever actually said ごめんください
 
It's a skill. I figure if I learn everything enough times, I'll eventually remember some of it :-)
 
hey, humans are all about repetition
nothing wrong with that
 
9:32 AM
> A. 立ったり座ったり働く
> B. 立ったり座ったりして働く
> C. 立ったり座ったり働いたりする
 
hmm, I think that last one's a bit different
 
If someone says A, do they mean B?
It looks like it's different.
But I don't know for sure what A means.
That's why I thought I'd include it
 
that's how I'm reading it, A=B≠C
 
That's my guess! :-)
 
though there was one example I came across that gave me pause, which maybe I should include in my question
「のんびりしたりうろついたり食べるのが好きです☆」
I can kinda see that one going either way...
 
9:38 AM
I'm looking through this right now, at like, example 18
Or 27
 
...why are those examples in there, and not mentioned as aberrations?
 
Oh hey, that reminds me--I think できる is usually called a suppletive form of する (filling in for the missing potential form, but unrelated by etymology)
Haha.
Where's the する!
 
exactly!
 
Look at 30-32 and the paragraph above the examples
 
can you use たり with adjectives? e.g. 美しかったり、醜かったりする?
 
9:42 AM
Yes, and with だ (だったり)
 
ok
 
「〜綺麗だったり」
 
can you mix verbs and adjectives and だ?
lol
 
I did it once, to some bemusement :-)
 
ok, looking for 30-32 now that I've finished editing my question
 
9:44 AM
But I had to try! You can see why I had to.
 
yeah, because ~たり is a pretty cool thing!
I'm going to have to read this entire paper, aren't I? =/
 
Oh, I like the examples with あるいは between the final two conjuncts
That seems fancy. I should say あるいは more often
37 is interesting, too
 
"可愛いかったり美しい"
if you can do it with verbs, why not adjectives!
 
Page 22 lists what the sources in parentheses refer to
I was wondering why sentences were labeled (中学生) and (恋人)
 
ooh... I was trying to figure out how they were semantically related =/
that makes way more sense
 
9:58 AM
Well, I saw the 中学生 label and thought "Okay, so this was written by a 中学生", then I saw one labeled 恋人 and thought "Waaaaitaminute"
 
lol
 
(I figured it out before I got to 死者, which would have been even funnier)
Or wait, morose
 
(I was about to ask :P)
 
Well, I was thinking they wrote it after they died. Y'know, zombies!
Zombies are funny.
 
jeez, it's already 7pm and I completely forgot to eat both lunch and dinner ><
 
10:00 AM
Oh no!!
You need to absorb some nutrients.
Otherwise, your brain won't absorb facts!
At least, not as well.
 
yeah, half the days I'm suffering from some level of sleep deprivation, too. it's a wonder I learn anything in any of my classes D:
 
Oh no!
(She says, at 2AM)
 
ok, time to run to the コンビニ I guess. see ya! o/
 
Okay! Have a good food and such!
 
10:46 AM
man, every once in a while they have these ツナわさびマヨ おにぎり. they had three and I bought them all because they are so delicious
i want them to just always have them. but instead they like to tease me with their lack of delicious things =(
 
11:22 AM
Ahh! I like delicious things
I've gone ahead and flagged it for removal. Thanks for the heads-up. Cheers. — X5748 31 mins ago
I'm reluctant to remove it.
It has a helpful answer. Actually, I'm kind of sympathetic to having questions like this on the site. True, it doesn't show any effort on their part to figure out what it means. But it asks about what is essentially a single construction, not a complex sentence.
It would be better if they explained what their problem with understanding できる was, but it doesn't make a really big difference in a question like this...
There aren't enough things they could be misunderstanding
Oh well, that's just how I'm thinking about it.
I don't want to remove a question with a useful answer that might help people in the future. Maybe we could edit it very slightly to say something like "What does できる mean in this context? It doesn't seem to mean to be able to do like it usually does." — snailboat 2 mins ago
@TokyoNagoya I was saying to rintaun that I didn't know what 〜たり〜たり meant without する, so I was only guessing :-)
I wanted to add して to both examples
I guess 「こん」 can be こんにちは or こんばんは? I haven't talked to people who say こん
 
11:49 AM
I was thinking that if V1たりV2たりV3 meant something, it would probably be one of these two:
1. V1たりV2たりしてV3
2. V1たりV2たりV3たりする
I wanted to add して but I couldn't tell which it was supposed to mean, so I listed both
 
 
1 hour later…
12:59 PM
こん。
 
ssb
おっす。
 
こん!
Ohh, people only say こん online?
I know people who say "lol" in person.
 
チャット用語らしいです
ノシ とか おか とか
ノシ=さよなら
おか=おかえり
 
I actually thought ノシ was a picture of an arm waving, hehe
 
そう、そうなのよ
 
1:08 PM
Ohh :-)
 
ssb
おつですー
i've learned a lot of these playing ff14
 
How about this 〜たり〜たり: 「もう出たり入ったりはナシだ」
Is it weird that する is missing?
 
snerk... "British and U.S. intelligence officials say they are worried about a "doomsday" cache of highly classified, heavily encrypted material they believe former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden has stored on a data cloud."
Is it a fluffy and white cloud? or one of those "slightly grey, might-rain-soon" types of clouds...
 
ssb
1:24 PM
he stored it on ison
that's what all the conspiracy theories were about
 
@ssb That is not a cloud though.... -_-
 
ssb
that's what they want you to think
 
@snailboat イイと思います
 
@ちょこれーと Is it possible to add する? I don't see where it would go
 
Maybe Xたりするのは?
 
1:37 PM
I'm really confused about @TokyoNagoya's answer to my question... I have no idea what to make of it.
I think I'm going to edit in some full-sentence examples for those phrases
 
The rule "you must always have する after 〜たり〜たり" doesn't seem to always be true!
 
You are confused because you are already seeing "meanings" in the phrases that are not there by the native speakers' standards.
 
「もう~たり~たりはなしだ」は「もう~たり~たりするのはなしだ」とも言えるかと・・
 
@TokyoNagoya When I read rintaun's comment, I thought his confusion was: "How come it's wrong in examples A and B, but it's okay in example C? What makes these examples different from one another?"
A = 「立ったり座ったり働く」 (wrong)
B =「話したり笑ったり食べる」 (wrong)
C =「のんびりしたりうろついたり食べる」 (right)
What makes C right but A+B wrong?
 
@snailboat That is exactly what my confusion is.
 
1:45 PM
C ends with 食べるのが好きです, not 食べる. That is the difference.
 
Oh, so my problem here is that I didn't quote C in its entirety
 
Besides, I did say " makes sense in informal speech" about C.
 
That makes me wonder if 「話したり笑ったり食べるのが好きです」 is okay (if not strictly grammatical)
 
informally ok.
 
"acceptable in informal speech" is "grammatical" to linguists, just for the record
 
1:47 PM
Well, it's okay to use "grammatical" to mean "grammatical in the standard language", if there is a grammatical difference between standard and non-standard language
I think
But yeah, the grammar of informal language is interesting too
(It's usually more complex than the grammar of formal language...)
 
informal language and standard language are not mutually exclusive
 
That's true, too
Although we're getting into murky waters, where things are not defined really well. I think the idea of "standard but informal" is relatively recent
 
for example, "wanna" is standard english, and grammatical, if "informal" english
(in regard to american english. I am not an expert on other major varieties)
 
Well, in theory terms like that are neutral with respect to language
But 標準語 doesn't seem to mean quite the same thing linguists mean when they say "standard language"
 
essentially no native speaker of standard american english would ever bat an eye when someone says "wanna". it is perfectly natural. that is "grammatical"
 
1:51 PM
Although I'm not even going to attempt to describe the difference. Too confusing for me. :-)
 
I never said anything was grammatical or otherwise. I even stated that I did not like bringing grammar into a discussion of informal speech. All I pointed out was which ones sounded Ok or not ok to me, a native speaker.
 
yeah, sorry, that was definitely a tangent
I wasn't asking about whether those phrases were acceptable as standalone sentences, though.
I was asking whether those were grammatically (i.e. even colloquially or informally) possible constructions. So saying that 話したり笑ったり食べるのが好きです is acceptable but that 話したり笑ったり食べる seems like nonsense to me
for example, 切りて is not acceptable in modern japanese, even if that phrase is put somewhere else
 
By the way, see The Morpholexical Nature of English to-Contraction for the grammar of wanna, especially section 7.8 for discussion of variability: some speakers accept %"Who do you wanna drive the car?" and others do not
(Since you brought it up :-)
 
yeah, I don't
lol
 
Me neither!
 
1:59 PM
I wasn't aware that it was acceptable in that instance
 
It's not to all speakers, but to some (a minority) it is
 
neat!
 
That's a pretty funny paper, by the way
 

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