English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

4:00 AM

@tchrist What name do you have for all anaphoric words as a group? We call them pronouns.

Most determiners have been traditionally classed along with adjectives, and this still occurs: for example, demonstrative and possessive determiners are sometimes described as demonstrative adjectives and possessive adjectives respectively. However modern theorists of grammar prefer to distinguish determiners as a separate word class from adjectives, which are simple modifiers of nouns, expressing attributes of the thing referred to.
This distinction applies particularly in languages like English which use definite and indefinite articles, frequently as a necessary component of noun phrases…

Cerberus

Because adjectives are also nouns.

tchrist

There is no way in hell that a pronoun is an adjective.

Determiner

A determiner is a word, phrase or affix that occurs together with a noun or noun phrase and serves to express the reference of that noun or noun phrase in the context. That is, a determiner may indicate whether the noun is referring to a definite or indefinite element of a class, to a closer or more distant element, to an element belonging to a specified person or thing, to a particular number or quantity, etc. Common kinds of determiners include definite and indefinite articles (like the English the and a[n]), demonstratives (like this and that), possessive determiners (like my and thei...

Cerberus

It is the other way around.

An adjective is a subclass of nouns.

What you call a noun, we call a substantive noun.

tchrist

In "this dog", there is one determiner and one noun. There are no pronouns there.

Cerberus

4:01 AM

@tchrist I disagree with this Anglo-Saxon exclusivity.

But never mind.

tchrist

When we stop speaking English, we can stop using the correct English terms for these things.

But the Spanish names are the same.

Cerberus

Pah.

tchrist

So you had best pick yet another language.

Cerberus

Correct ≠ modern Anglo-Saxon linguistics.

@tchrist Then you're lucky there.

tchrist

There is a difference between "esta casa" where it is demonstrative adjective/determiner, and just plain "ésta", where it is a pronoun. Notice the spelling even changes.

Except where English has 2 numbers times 2 distances, Spanish has 3 numbers times 3 genders times 3 distances.

But we still both know the difference between a determiner and a pronoun.

You’ve just said an article is a pronoun.

That’s ridiculous.

The articles "a", "an", and "the" are not pronouns, ever. Period. Full stop. Page eject.

*Hey, could you please hand me a?

*No, because I don’t know where I put the.

Cerberus

4:08 AM

8 mins ago, by Cerberus

@tchrist What name do you have for all anaphoric words as a group? We call them pronouns.

tchrist

*An is out the door.

Articles are not pronouns, ever.

Noah

Hi

tchrist

They do not stand in for a noun.

They are determiners.

MετάEd

@Cerberus "Many people would have the same questions" does not convince. "Many experts" would, as would "many experts would find the answer useful or very interesting". But those are claims you have not made.

Noah

"There is two rooms" vs. "There are two rooms"

Cerberus

4:10 AM

@tchrist How about adjectival relative pronouns? What do you call those?

@MετάEd Oh, not the expert thing again. Come on.

@Noah Are.

Is is also heard, but not usually in very short sentences like that.

tchrist

@Cerberus Show me a sentence.

Adverbs can also modify nouns, of course.

The outside noises. The above text.

Cerberus

Ehm... the sarcophagus, which container was not used in Greece, has certain interesting connotations...

tchrist

Is that English?

Noah

@Cerberus That's what I thought. But what's the grammatical details behind them. Why one over the other?

tchrist

@Noah Agreement.

Cerberus

4:14 AM

I will admit that it is not easy to use it in a good sentence on command, but yes.

@Noah The subject is plural, "two rooms", and the verb should normally be plural if the subject is plural.

MετάEd

@Cerberus The "expert thing" as you call it has been baldly stated multiple times by StackExchange management. Blame them.

Noah

@Cerberus Yeah. I am fine with that. My problem is with the is one.

Cerberus

But then there is can be considered an idiomatic (special, fixed) phrase, and so it is often used even with plural subjects, but it sounds a bit informal still.

blames them

tchrist

I suppose which is something of an adjective in: “Is that your dog? —Which dog?”

Cerberus

@Tchrist How am I going to explain the shared property of the, that, and it, without using the word anaphoric? I want to use pronominal, goddammit!

tchrist

4:18 AM

“I’m trying to figure out which you’re talking about”. Is that what you mean?

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, interrogative pronouns can be used adjectivally too.

tchrist

The does not belong with those.

The is not a pronoun. It is an article, which is a kind of determiner.

Cerberus

Think about it.

tchrist

Done.

Cerberus

The dog can mean "a certain dog that was mentioned before". The same applies to that dog.

tchrist

4:19 AM

Articles are never pronouns, certainly not in English, that’s for sure.

Cerberus

And it too.

They are all anaphoric.

But I'd like to avoid the word anaphoric.

tchrist

One is a definite article, and the other is a demonstrative adjective. Both are definite determiners. Neither is a pronoun.

Cerberus

Do you even know what anaphoric means?

tchrist

Do you want to see my fucking code?

I’ve done co-reference resolution work.

Cerberus

Then I don't understand why you're saying what you're saying.

But never mind.

tchrist

4:22 AM

Articles aren’t pronouns. Finis.

Cerberus

You just iterate your point without responding...

Let's change the subject.

This isn't going to work.

Noah

This is more like asking Obama to reconsider his Health Reform.

Cerberus

nods

Noah

@Cerberus What are some 'good' reading practices?

cornbread ninja

well, at least you're not fighting about fashion for once. :D

toodles.

Cerberus

4:43 AM

@Noah Um I don't know?

Write down words that you don't understand or don't understand completely, and look those up later (or immediately).

And read good literature.

> RELATIVE ADJECTIVE: a pronominal adjective that introduces a clause qualifying an antecedent (as 'which' in “our next meeting will be on Monday, at which time a new chairman will be elected”) or a clause functioning as a substantive (as 'what' in “I do not know what course I should follow”)

@Tchrist It appears those are called relative adjectives, remember my sarcophagus?

MετάEd

@Cerberus I have to say yes, you are a sarc oph a guy.

Cerberus

I do bite, that is true.

MετάEd

Can't respect a dog that won't bite.

Cerberus

Yeah.

And didn't sarkazo come from "meat"?

Yes, from sarx.

Noah

5:10 AM

@Cerberus You mean the ex- french President? I think he came from his mom.

:)

Cerberus

Heh.

No doubt related.

MετάEd

To his mom? Probably, yes.

@RegDwighт Monty Python did comedy sketches about capitalism. The US does episodic dramatic fiction about capitalism, a.k.a. soap opera.

Noah

5:26 AM

@MετάEd

You around? Didnt get your comment?

MετάEd

5:39 AM

I'm around.

@Noah.

MετάEd

5:55 AM

And now … I’m not.

Noah

Hi

I was asking about the comment.

But I got your answer

Mahnax

Good evening.

Noah

Hey, @Mahnax

Evening

What's up?

Mahnax

@Noah Hi Noah.

@Noah Just procrastinating, that's all. You?

Noah

@Mahnax Same here.

Mahnax

6:09 AM

@Noah Good good. Glad that there's productivity out there somewhere.

Noah

@Mahnax Right. We just have to be careful with our productivity...

Mahnax

@Noah Why?

Noah

Because we are not doing anything.

Well, at least I am not doing anything

Mahnax

Er… OK. If you say so.

Noah

How's the weather up there?

Hope it's not getting very cold.

Mahnax

6:12 AM

It was warm today, above 0˚.

Noah

Celsius?

Mahnax

Yeah.

32˚ for you America-folk.

Noah

Yeah. Right. I remember that conversion formula now

Mahnax

(9/5)˚C + 32 = ˚F

Noah

@Mahnax Exactly!

Mahnax

6:16 AM

@Noah Or (5/9)*(˚F-32) = ˚C

Noah

Yeah. Same thing.

Mahnax

Yep, just slightly rearranged.

Noah

Right.

A kid in my class doesn't know how to do that.

He is so dumb when it comes to formulas.

Mahnax

Hey, be nice.

It's not easy for some people.

Noah

Right. Sorry

I shouldnt have said that. Now I feel bad.

Mahnax

6:21 AM

Mhmm.

Noah

What time do you go to bed?

Mahnax

Whenever I feel like sleeping.

I'm on November break, so no school tomorrow.

Noah

So no schedule?

Mahnax

I usually go to bed at either 12:00AM or 1:00AM during school.

All that I have tomorrow is my driving test and a concert.

Noah

@Mahnax Omm.

Do you have a car?

Mahnax

6:23 AM

@Noah Er?

@Noah My family has one that I'll use when I drive.

'96 Chevy Suburban.

Noah

Be careful with that car. It seems like a big beast.

Mahnax

It's not that ugly.

We didn't put a lift kit on it. Those are silly.

Looks more like that.

Okay, this is better

Yep.

Same color?

6:29 AM

Yeah. Different rims though.

Noah

Cool

Mahnax

Indeed. Do you drive?

Noah

Not yet.

Cerberus

8:02 AM

Hmm another fire in my street.

Only a few houses away from the fire that happened last winter.

Cerberus

8:33 AM

It appears to be over.

Bye!

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…