English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2012-09-27 (page 1 of 5)

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12:35 AM

I will just leave this here

12:51 AM

@N3buchadnezzar Nice, but other languages have even bigger alphabets.

The Khmer alphabet is the largest alphabet in the world (Guinness Book of World Records, 1995). It consists of 33 consonants, 23 vowels and 12 independent vowels. The 23 main consonants are separated into 2 groups: the first series (small sound) and second series (big sound).

everything2.com/index.pl?node=Khmer

(if that source is accurate)

user19161

@SpareOom And some languages don't even have alphabets!

Chinese, for example?

user19161

Yes.

@JasperLoy I was trying to vote on some questions in the proposed Etiquette site but I don't appear to be registered and can't figure out how. What am I missing?

user19161

@SpareOom You need an Area 51 account. Create it just like any other!

1:05 AM

That's needed in spite of the fact that I'm following the proposed site?

user19161

@SpareOom How did you follow it? Did you log into an account there to follow it?

@N3buchadnezzar Haha great!

I love it.

I think I clicked on "follow" when I was visiting the page. I made comments and voted on questions, but I can't for the posts on the top of the page.

user19161

@SpareOom I see that you already have an account there. Maybe those posts can't be voted because they have enough votes already? I don't know.

When I clicked on one, it says please log in or register to vote for this post.

user19161

1:26 AM

@SpareOom Exactly, so just log in. You already have an account there I checked.

I'm shown at the top of the page with my user name, but when I click the question, it takes me to another page on which I'm only a user number.

user19161

@SpareOom And you can't vote on anything there?

Not on the secondary page.

It won't let me register either.

user19161

Hmm, sorry. No idea what is going on there.

Bother.

@JasperLoy Thanks anyway.

user19161

1:33 AM

Overt et haut !

@JasperLoy What?

2:09 AM

@RegDwighт It sort of looks like he's reading older questions, which bring up slightly different, though highly related questions based on what he read. I don't necessarily see those two as exact duplicates, trying to look for a difference. Just because both questions are about in/on the bus doesn't mean the essence of the questions are the same, I guess. That one is particularly confusing though, since the first bus question was already declared a dupe.

2:23 AM

16

Q: What is the lexical class of the word 'worth' when used in a sentence like "Is this apple worth $3?"

The question "Not worth the paper it's printed on" - wrong meaning? got me thinking about what part of speech, or lexical class, the word 'worth' takes? A comment in "Is it worth it?" vs. "Does it worth it?" advises to treat 'worth' as an adjective, but I'm not ...

4

Q: what part of speech is "worth"

In a sentence like the following: The knight's statue had a tale worth telling. What is "worth"? I wanted to identify it a preposition, showing relation between "tale" and "telling."

Dupes.

I remembered something!

2:38 AM

Ok, voting to close. Didn’t know.

It's not easy to find.

Perhaps they should be merged.

2:56 AM

It seems to be accumulating answers.

Would they be easier to find if merged, or separate?

Merged?

I asked because I do not know.

Doesn’t Dutch have a cognate to worth?

But is it used the same way?

German has a cognate to worthy of course.

Waard usually comes after the value specified.

Hi

Hi.

3:00 AM

Does it take a genitive?

Three dollars’ worth?

How's everyone doing?

Nope. We don't have many genitives anyway.

It just takes the "unmarked case".

Ok.

> Dit huis is € 200,000 waard.

Can’t wedge a personal pronoun in there either. :)

3:02 AM

A personal pronoun would be parsed as a dative.

> She’s not worth me.

> Het huis is mij waard = "the house is worthy [of] me".

Is there a distinct accusative?

My sentence doesn’t seem to scan.

Well, semantically.

Only with hen/hun ("them"), but the distinction is only maintained in educated speech. It takes conscious thinking to apply properly.

But clearly it takes the object case.

3:04 AM

@tchrist No, it would probably not occur in reality.

Conscious thinking because of having to sort dative from accusative?

Yes.

There is confusion over that in Spanish.

It’s a common enough mistake.

I would think "can I replace this with aan hen? If so, it must be indirect object; if not, it must be direct object".

Aan hen = hun = indirect object; bare hen = direct object and prepositional object.

What are the forms in Spanish?

Spanish has le/les for dative, lo/los and la/las for accusative. The problem in Spanish is that some speakers use the dative object le where the accusative object lo should go, but only for male people, not for things. This is actually considered not incorrect.

3:08 AM

Okay, but in educated speech?

There are also people who mistakenly use lo or la (acc) for le (dat). That is considered wrong.

Using hun as subject (instead of zij/ze) is considered lower class.

Educated speech permits a 3-way lo/le/la distinctions for accusatives, but it is a minority use. The thing is that it is in northern Spanish, which is the prestige dialect.

Using lo for le, or la for le, is considered lower class.

Loismo and laismo are considered wrong.

Using hun as direct object is considered uneducated. 99.9 % of the people do it.

@tchrist can you give me an example where it'd be incorrect?

3:09 AM

Leismo is considered, well, ok.

Has visto a Jorge? Sí, le vi ayer.

Really ought to be lo vi.

Northern as in Madrid—not Galicia or Navarra, I presume?

All of those places.

Well, not Galicia, perhaps.

But...

I thought Castilian was the prestige dialect.

@tchrist Though I've seen that used in old films. Nowadays no one says that, at least not that I know.

It is.

They say it in Spain.

3:11 AM

Castilian is central rather than northern.

One calls it northern Spanish.

Hrmpf.

It originated in the north.

Honest.

Did it?

Where?

Look at where Castilla le Vieja sits.

The wrong usage is "La dije a Juana que viniera."

That one is low-class.

3:13 AM

Just saw an interesting example: "Le pegué" and "Lo pegué", both are correct but have different meaning.

Old Castile () is a historic region of Spain, which included territory that later corresponded to the provinces of Santander (now Cantabria), Burgos, Logroño (now La Rioja), Soria, Segovia, Ávila, Valladolid, Palencia. Its origins are in the historic Castile that was formed in the 9th century in the zone now comprised by Cantabria, Álava, and Burgos. In the 18th century, Charles III of Spain assigned to the so-called kingdom of Castilla la Vieja the provinces of Burgos, Soria, Segovia, Ávila, Valladolid, and Palencia. The royal decree of 30 November 1833, the reform of Javier de Burgos ...

@ChairOTP And you don’t mean a different meaning in distinguishing a person from a thing, right?

Can you pegarle algo a alguién?

You can.

Is that the difference you meant?

But the first one is "pegar" as in punch someone, and the other one as in stick/paste something.

Is that a dative le, or an accusative for a male person?

I don’t think anybody in the Americas uses accusative le, but I don’t know.

3:16 AM

We do, sometimes.

I am trying to find out what was considered the heartland of Old Castile. If you take Burgos, it is northern; if you take Toledo, it is central.

I knew both senses of pegar, but hadn’t thought about it.

For example: "Yo le vi la cara desde la torre"

Good day.

But that is a dative of interest, no?

Hm.

Hi, M..ax.

Me ha pegado aquel acento - it stuck to me.

But I also think of it as getting smacked. Just not in that sentence.

3:19 AM

I suppose they had to give up Toledo later.

What do you mean, had to give up later?

What about: "Nos le pegamos mientras iban bajando hacia el paradero"

But Wiki doesn't tell us much about the earliest beginnings.

Well, Castille was divided.

Were you reading English or Spanish?

English.

3:20 AM

Maybe better in Spanish. Let me check.

It is complicated.

@Mahnax Hi

> Sus orígenes están en la Castilla histórica que se formó en el siglo IX en el norte de lo que actualmente es la provincia de Burgos.

> Ya hacia el siglo XVI al "Reino de Castilla" empieza a denominársele "Castilla la Vieja" y al de Toledo se le pasa a conocer como "Castilla la Nueva.

You're right, the Spanish article is more explicit.

3:22 AM

@ChairOTP Hi!

I'm not sure which period is to be considered more important in the development of the Castilian dialect.

@ChairOTP Well, if you are reflexive, then the other pronoun must be dative.

Hi!

Off the topic: Why is there some common phrases as "I think not, she/he loves me not"?

But at least the earliest origins of Castille are in the north, as you said.

Mechanical snail

3:23 AM

This is a dupe.

0

Q: "Lives" vs. "life" in "James tells his friends about the life of those living on the farm"

James is giving a tour of his farm to some of his friends. Which sentence is correct: James introduces some of the animals on the farm: "This is Elmer, the pig... That's Mini, the mouse, and that duck is called Daffy... " James tells his friends about the life of those living on the farm...

word-choice nouns grammatical-number

@Mahnax How are you?

@ChairOTP I am OK, I guess.

@ChairOTP Old expressions, inherited from when English had different word order and less do-support.

You?

@Cerberus So it'd be weird to say "I want not"?

@Mahnax yeah I'm OK too.

3:24 AM

Yeah.

It would sound archaic.

> El dialéctico románico castellano, uno de los precursores de la lengua española, se originó en el condado medieval de Castilla (sur de Cantabria y norte de Burgos), con influencia vasca y visigótica.

@Cerberus Thanks!

South of Cantabria and north of Burgos.

Do-support is normally required with verbs that are neither auxiliaries nor modals.

Mechanical snail

@Cerberus Except "I think not", which is a set phrase now. Otherwise it's a stylistic archaism.

3:25 AM

@tchrist Right, that is pretty much the same region.

“He watching over Israel slumbers not nor sleeps.”

I mean, the same area where the political origin Castille lies.

Not completely surprising, then.

I have also seen I guess not and I suspect not.

I think I'm going to grab a snack. BRB.

Mechanical snail

3:26 AM

@tchrist I didn't think there was much Basque influence?

I guess they're the same.

@tchrist Yes, I got that. Wiki articles are about the easiest genre in any language.

@Mechanicalsnail Yes.

> La pronunciación de la "v" como fonema bilabial oclusivo o fricativo, idéntico al de "b", es compartida también con el gallego, occitano, sardo y varios dialectos del catalán, entre otros. Una posible causa de esta peculiaridad es la influencia del sustrato lingüístico vascoide, lo que explicaría su extensión en estas lenguas citadas a partir de un foco vasco-pirenaico.

Mechanical snail

@ChairOTP That's a different meaning; in those "not" is a pro-verb-phrase or whatever, referring to the previous sentence.

They don't mean "I am not thinking" etc..

@ChairOTP Those are probably either variations on "I think not" or elliptical: "I guess [it is] not [so]".

Ahhhh stupid chat!

It won't even let me type [so]!

Mechanical snail

3:28 AM

Auto-corrects to Stack Overflow

Annoying, huh?

@Mechanicalsnail But isn't 'I think not' referring to a previous sentence as well?I have seen it principally after 'Coincidence? I think not'

Yes, it is very hard to decide whether those constructions are variations on the old word order or simply elliptical / echoing.

@Cerberus I'll stick to the ones people use and not try to make up something like I want not when it's not commonly used.

Mechanical snail

@ChairOTP I like that analysis. Also explains why it isn't archaic.

3:30 AM

@ChairOTP Yeah, that sounds wise.

@Cerberus elliptical is when you omit the verb, correct me if I'm wrong.

@ChairOTP Yes, or when you omit something else.

Mechanical snail

0

Q: "[so]" shouldn't auto-expand to "Stack Overflow" in chat

If you type [so] in chat, it auto-expands to "Stack Overflow". This is a problem in http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/95/english-language-usage, since you might type "so" in brackets to indicate an editorial change in a quote. This happened in this chat message.

bug chat english automation

It means literally "leaving-out".

Greek leipô "leave" + ek- "out".

@Cerberus I thought when it was something else it could be considered as either an anacoluthon or just a grammatical mistake if the sentence doesn't make much sense.

3:36 AM

@Cerb chance != change

user image

@ChairOTP Anyone who mentions anacoluthia to @Cerberus is definitely putting himself on his good side.

@Mahnax Fixed. I always do that.

@tchrist *anacolutha

@Cerberus Dank.

But yes.

ǁ anacoluthia /ˌænəkəʊˈl(j)uːθɪə/.

Etymology: L., a. Gr. ἁνακολουθία want of sequence.

A want of grammatical sequence; the passing from one construction to another before the former is completed.

1856 G. Woods Madvig’s Lat. Gr. 434 ― This want of strict grammatical coherence is called Anacoluthia.

3:37 AM

@ChairOTP What do you mean "when it was something else"?

@tchrist which means?

Mechanical snail

@Mahnax chanɠe

@Cerberus besides the verb.

@ChairOTP Greek stuff.

Sorry, on Cerb’s good side.

Too many hims there.

@Mechanicalsnail Nice LATIN SMALL LETTER G WITH HOOK you've got there.

3:38 AM

@tchrist oh ok.

@tchrist Yes, okay, I thought you were pluralising anacoluthon.

on > a, not ia. Ug.

criterion > ia is a false something or other.

I'm falling-down tired, so I am resorting to thingies.

FMH I have to get up in 4h20m.

Mechanical snail

@Mahnax It's like the old Austro-Hungarian royal family, the Haþsburgs.

No, 6h20.

-ia is usually used for abstractions or collectives (although it is of course much more common: that's just how it is used in contrast with other nominal suffixes).

3:39 AM

Still.

@Mechanicalsnail Um, OK.

Somebody go put salt on the snail tail for me.

@ChairOTP An anacoluthon is when a writer changes the structure of a sentence midway, even though—you can clearly see the construction is still lacking some complement that is not normally left out.

Ellipsis is when something is left out that can normally be left out.

In modern languages, dashes are often used to mark anacolutha (although they can be used for other breaks as well).

@Cerberus But the anacoluthon is subdivided in two: anapótodon and anantapódon (no idea how you say that in English, so I'm sorry) and the second one is the lack of some complement.

Lord and I thought anaphora were hard!

3:44 AM

@ChairOTP Um I must confess I have never heard of that division.

@tchrist *was

Hehe.

anafors.

@tchrist Why would the anaphora be hard?

Google doesn't even know those words!

Coreference resolution.

@Cerberus hispanoteca.eu/Lexikon%20der%20Linguistik/a/ANAPODOTON.htm

3:47 AM

Not in OED or RAE.

@tchrist Not all words are found in the RAE, even though they actually exist.

This is true of all dictionaries.

Ah, it is simply an-apo-doton.

"No apodosis".

Mechanical snail

@ChairOTP Not all words actually exist, even though they are found in the RAE.

I don't get why they say "Konjunktion", while it should actually be an if clause without a then clause...

3:49 AM

@Mechanicalsnail They do exist but not widely used.

anapodeictic
anapophysial
anapophysis

Hm.

Mechanical snail

2

Q: How to quickly prepare snails?

How to quickly prepare fresh snails? I've heard snails must be soaked in salted water for a few hours in order to remove the mucus but a friend of mine suggested that the ones in shells can be simply thrown into the hot ash and after a dozen of minutes they can be taken off the shell and eaten. ...

food-safety outdoor-cooking snail

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!

rhetoric.byu.edu/figures/a/anapodoton.htm

@ChairOTP Okay, so I think anapodoton and anantapodon are synonyms, and they indicate the kind of anacoluthon you mentioned.

Anantopodon seems to be a misspelling.

@Mechanicalsnail pats you on the slimey back

It's OK.

That was just a bad dream.

People would never actually do that.

I thought an anacoluthon was some mix of an anaconda and a culebre and a python.

3:56 AM

anantapódoton*

Yes, that is the correct spelling.

A culebre?

I had to get the l from somewhere.

Is that a word?

Oh.

Sure.

OED says no.

3:59 AM

Cuélebre (Asturian) or Culebre (Cantabrian), is a giant winged serpent-dragon of the Asturian and Cantabrian mythology, that lives in a cave, guards treasures and keeps xanas as prisoners. Although they are immortal, they grow old as the time goes by and their scales become thick and impenetrable, and flag wings grow in their bodies. They don't usually move, and when they do it, it is in order to eat cattle and people. One can kill the cuélebre giving him as meal a red-hot stone or a bread full of pins. Its spit it is said to turn into a magic stone which heals many diseases. In Midsummer,...

hands Cerb a new word

Ah.

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