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tchrist
tchrist
12:24 AM
5
A: Odd possessive form of a proper name: Why does Dryden write “Lord Nonsuch his” instead of “Lord Nonsuch’s” but “Bibber’s” instead of “Bibber his”?

Sven YargsThe aristocratic usage theory In a comment (now vanished, along with several others that once appeared beneath the original question), a commenter opined that the different ways of handling the possessive of a proper name reflected the diction appropriate to a member of the aristocracy ("Lord No...

 
Mitch
Mitch
1:04 AM
@tchrist Oh sure. I 'm not sure where Mari-Lou was going with her claim about Italian specifically. I was just saying that at some point somebody for Italian introduced the 'g' which was not pronounced, like the 'g' in Magdalen is not pronounced. I can't think of anything in Italian which was in Latin, dropped, but reintroduced but still not pronounced. Italian seems to be mostly one-to-one spelling to pronunciation except for 'gl' and '.cch'
 
tchrist
tchrist
1:21 AM
Italian has lots of digraphs. GL is neither of those sounds.
And ce is che while gi is J
GL is the Spanish elle or Portuguese LH
Guillotine.
Italian digraphs are very not WYSIWYG
You cannot say that the G is not pronounced.
It certainly is but means something completely different.
They will understand you if you pronounce GL as /j/ so a Y
 
Færd
Færd
2:22 AM
Does anyone know of an online Latin dictionary with pronunciation?
I'm tired of made-up pronunciations of Latin roots in my head.
How do you pronounce specere?
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
2:43 AM
@Færd I don't believe that's a word...
But Latin pronunciation is actually comparatively easy.
Almost every letter is almost always the same as its IPA symbol.
Exceptions: c is always /k/.
 
Færd
Færd
Oh cool.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Qu is always /kʷ/.
The letter i can be /i/ or /j/.
 
Færd
Færd
> despise (v.)
c. 1300, from Old French despis-, present participle stem of despire "to despise," from Latin despicere "look down on, scorn," from de- "down" (see de-) + spicere/specere "look at"
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
U can be /u/ or something like /v/ or /w/.
@Færd Ah, well, that is an unattested form.
 
Færd
Færd
Is there a brief manual for some details somewhere?
I suppose Wikipedia.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
2:46 AM
Probably.
That would be a good start, Latin pronunciation.
 
Færd
Færd
OK. Thanks.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Any vowel can be long or short, indicated in dictionaries in some places by a macron or the absence thereof.
But we don't normally bother to distinguish between those.
 
Færd
Færd
@Cerberus What's the attested form?
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Gn is /ŋn/.
 
Færd
Færd
And why is specere unattested?
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
2:48 AM
@Færd I believe there is none. Only compounds of this particular verb are used, at least in classical Latin, such as conspicere, despicere, etc.
And spicere/specere is probably what they extrapolate the simplex form to have been.
 
Færd
Færd
Ah, I see.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
P.S. If you know Italian pronunciation, it's in many ways close to Latin.
Except for oddities like ci and gi and gl and such.
 
Færd
Færd
Alas.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
In Latin, g is always /g/ except before n or m or g.
Then it's /ŋ/.
 
Færd
Færd
Where do I start to learn Latin? Apart from these pronunciation tips?
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
2:53 AM
So if you imagine Italian pronunciation with most of the odd, specific, rules for certain consonant clusters removed, and add a (much smaller) number of other such rules, then you basically have Latin.
Well, if you want to be serious about it, you need to use a textbook.
Orberg is popular nowadays.
It teaches Latin in Latin.
 
Færd
Færd
Only half-serious. To try my hand at it.
I guess that can't work, can it!
One in English at least.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
 
Færd
Færd
That's kind of decipherable.
Almost.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
See?
What words do you find hard to figure out?
 
Færd
Færd
Yeah. Has a lot in common with Esperanto too.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
2:57 AM
I'm sure if you spent a few minutes studying the text and the image, you could understand every single word.
Adults learn faster.
 
Færd
Færd
@Cerberus quoque
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Færd Yeah, Esperanto took many things from the three big European linguistic branches.
@Færd If you read the entire page, maybe you can guess what the most logical word would be to use in those sentences that have quoque.
It's all trying to be very logical, to use words that you would expect there.
 
Færd
Færd
Peninsula.
 
tchrist
tchrist
@Cerberus And we can probably pretend that /kʷ/ is /kw/, eh?
 
Færd
Færd
That's cool. Thanks!
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
3:00 AM
@Færd Because you know what paeninsula is in English, it's easier for you to guess what insula is, yes, and you also know insular, etc.
@tchrist It's complicated.
 
tchrist
tchrist
Hence the pretending.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Page 2...
@tchrist Sure, although some think there was almost no w sound in qu at all in the classical age any more.
Ugly sentence.
 
tchrist
tchrist
I know it did eventually go away; I didn't know when.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Nobody knows.
We normally pronounce it as kw now in Latin.
That's all we know for sure.
 
 
4 hours later…
SBM
SBM
7:19 AM
Latin looks a lot like English except for the words
2
 
SBM
SBM
7:32 AM
What does it mean to have jettisoned something in simple terms?
Apparently it seems like the act of discarding something, but I'm not sure if I'm right.
 
 
1 hour later…
Andrew Leach
Andrew Leach
8:51 AM
@SBM en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/jettison -- generally it's a deliberate act of rejection rather than simply discarding. That is, not merely "I don't need this any more" but "I have to get rid of this." Think of a hot air balloon cutting ballast loose (or throwing occupants out) in order to gain height.
 
SBM
SBM
@AndrewLeach Thank You
 
Gigili
Gigili
Hi! What preposition must be used with "translate" as a verb in the following context: ""Koi" is translated .... (to/into/as) "a non English word" in Persian."
question mark
 
Andrew Leach
Andrew Leach
As. As has connotations of comparison/equivalence ("I'm not as ... as he is"). Into indicates transition: you translate a phrase into Persian, but as a particular equivalent. To is unidiomatic with translate.
 
 
4 hours later…
Gigili
Gigili
12:53 PM
@AndrewLeach Thank you very much
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
1:37 PM
@Cerberus sounds like a sport for the upperclasses
 
terdon
terdon
1:47 PM
@Færd Seems like also to me.
What language is that?
Huh. That's actually Latin? Not a horribly simplified version of it?
 
Mitch
Mitch
@Cerberus nice book. author/title? or are all the pages online?
@AndrewLeach 'Can you translate that to Persian?' Idiomatic for me. (into also works)
@terdon tu quoque, Brute?
Bruté
 
Simon Forsberg
Simon Forsberg
2:17 PM
Hi all. Just a little question regarding this:
11
A: Forward vs Forwards

J D OConalThe OED says this The present distinction in usage between forward and forwards is that the latter expresses a definite direction viewed in contrast with other directions. In some contexts either form may be used without perceptible difference of meaning; the following are examples in which ...

(I might add a comment later)
Is it "Go Forward!" or "Go Forwards!" ?
 
terdon
terdon
@Mitch Please, this is a public chat. I prefer rooster.
@SimonForsberg Depends. If it's just a general exclamation, like Go on or go forth and so on, I'd say go forward. if you're giving someone driving instructions, go forwards.
Although go forwards seems a bit weird.
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
I agree, but I don't think go forwards sounds weird
 
Mitch
Mitch
@terdon Going forward, that is to say from now on or in the future, we should avoid businessisms.
 
terdon
terdon
@MattE.Эллен Not by itself but would you say when the light turns green, go forwards? I think I'd always say go straight or some other thing like that.
 
Simon Forsberg
Simon Forsberg
@terdon It seems weird to me too. I just can't put my finger on why...
 
Mitch
Mitch
2:32 PM
> In American English, however, forward prevails in all senses since Webster (1832) damned forwards as "a corruption."
 
terdon
terdon
I'm guessing it's because we'd normally say something like go straight, just drive, etc.
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
@terdon well, I guess in a situation where you wouldn't say it it would sound weird...
 
terdon
terdon
@Mitch Might be that then.
 
Mitch
Mitch
'forwards' is fine as a direction
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
"When I say go forwards, go forwards!"
 
terdon
terdon
2:32 PM
@MattE.Эллен Isn't that an extra s there?
 
Mitch
Mitch
"forwards and backwards"
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
@terdon no
 
Mitch
Mitch
well back and forth, but I think you get it
 
terdon
terdon
Huh
 
Simon Forsberg
Simon Forsberg
The reason I ask is because the company where I work (in Sweden) started with some slogan that we saw in the office today, where it says "Go forwards!" and I'm wondering if it's correct to say that.
 
Mitch
Mitch
2:34 PM
@terdon qui, qui rit, qui?
 
terdon
terdon
I would assume it's correct, for what that's worth, but I find Go forward more natural.
 
Mitch
Mitch
@SimonForsberg It's fine.
 
terdon
terdon
@Mitch Is that how you would have phrased it though? Or would you have gone for "Go forward"?
 
Simon Forsberg
Simon Forsberg
@Mitch Crap. I was hoping it was wrong.
 
Mitch
Mitch
@terdon I wouldn't have said either.
 
terdon
terdon
2:36 PM
True.
 
Mitch
Mitch
It sounds weird. But maybe it's not the grammar but ... something else
@SimonForsberg OH, so you want it to be wrong?
2
Then..
 
terdon
terdon
"Move forwards" seems more natural to me, for example. Or even "Look forwards" or something.
 
Mitch
Mitch
it sounds terrible.
'Onward' or 'Onwards' sound more natural (either)
(as far as a command to a bunch of people staring at computer monitors and earphones and typing in five windows can be admonished as such)
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
> Always go forwards — David Soul
 
Simon Forsberg
Simon Forsberg
@Mitch Thank you, that's better :P
 
Mitch
Mitch
2:41 PM
@terdon man you almost just dragged me in to a youtube rabbit hole. But I will resist!
Onwards!
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
@terdon :D I had to learn that for Greek class (but we learned it from a different performer)
 
terdon
terdon
@MattE.Эллен You wha?
Seriously? Wow. That's impressive, actually. I didn't know you were taking modern Greek
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
το κοκορακι κικιρικικι
@terdon oh, yeah. cos my girlfriend is Greek
 
terdon
terdon
Ah, yes, I remember you mentioning that. Well, kudos to you, it ain't an easy language.
 
Mitch
Mitch
@SimonForsberg googling for 'go forwards' returns all sorts of links... to 'go forward' so I'm guessing the latter is more common. But that doesn't (necessarily) mean it's wrong
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
2:45 PM
indeed. sadly I can't currently afford more lessons at the moment
 
terdon
terdon
One of my best friend's girlfriend now speaks fluent Greek. It's a bit of a mixed blessing for him: on the one hand, he can speak to his significant other in his native language which is great, on the other, we can't gossip about her when she's around any more :P
 
Mitch
Mitch
@MattE.Эллен I feel like there's an extra ki in there
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
@Mitch I don't think so... let me check
 
terdon
terdon
There isn't
Not in the one I used to sing with my grandparents, anyway.
 
Mitch
Mitch
@terdon That can only lead me to the irrevocable conclusion that Greek has an excess of ki to distribute.
 
terdon
terdon
2:46 PM
@Mitch The goddess?
 
Mitch
Mitch
Or that greek roosters have a tickle in their throat that makes them go an extra beat
 
terdon
terdon
There's also a Japanese ki, right? What does that mean again?
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
the χι distribution, however
 
terdon
terdon
@MattE.Эллен Ouch :P
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
:D
@terdon yes. my girlfriend is worried about the same thing :D
 
terdon
terdon
2:51 PM
@MattE.Эллен Great. So learn it and don't tell her for a few months :P
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
lol
 
terdon
terdon
A french friend of mine did that. She'd been coming to Greece every summer for years and never let on she could understand us, the horrible thing.
We only caught on when she burst out laughing at a joke and everyone froze and stared at her :P
 
Mitch
Mitch
3:06 PM
@terdon girlfriends: insidious until they become invidious
 
terdon
terdon
@Mitch I prefer ATI.
 
Mitch
Mitch
ATI? I hardly knew her!
 
Galois in the Field
Galois in the Field
Bonjour!
I have come to find a piquant word to use!
 
Mitch
Mitch
Any Time Interrogation?
 
Galois in the Field
Galois in the Field
Is there a word that expresses 'current fear of something bad that could have happened'?
 
Mitch
Mitch
3:09 PM
Albuquerque Technology Incubator?
@GaloisintheField anxiety
a general fear of things that are unknown
 
Galois in the Field
Galois in the Field
Anxiety feels like a fear of something that could happen in the future
What about more specific, 'Current fear of something bad that could have happened, that wasn't a known possibility at the time'
 
Mitch
Mitch
"I'm anxious about the egg salad sandwiches I made for the picnic. Did they like them? Did they stay out in the sun too long?"
 
Galois in the Field
Galois in the Field
Hmmm, I see, if I had consumed the egg before thinking this, that would work
 
Mitch
Mitch
@GaloisintheField Good point. No one says "I'm anxious about the outcome of the American Civil War."
But anxiety works for any unknown fear.
 
Galois in the Field
Galois in the Field
@Mitch I've said this before
 
Mitch
Mitch
3:13 PM
Does fear refer to any particular tie frame?
 
Galois in the Field
Galois in the Field
It should be a current fear, that lasted for some reason after everything turned out well
A Chinese friend asked me if such a word exists, and apparently it does in Chinese, she has told me that I seem to react different to Chinese people and she was interested since I seem to have no such word.
 
Mitch
Mitch
@GaloisintheField OK, bad example. No one says "I'm afraid you won the Powerball lottery"
 
Galois in the Field
Galois in the Field
Oh my, my last sentence went on for a decade!
 
Mitch
Mitch
But, considering, it usually messes up peoples lives.
 
Galois in the Field
Galois in the Field
@Mitch :P
Does this room teach one to be more witty, or are the members witty before joining?
 
Mitch
Mitch
3:16 PM
@GaloisintheField Usually in these cases I would ask 'what is that Chinese word?" and then see if it really means that.
@GaloisintheField I'm pretty sure it's all down hill from here.
 
Galois in the Field
Galois in the Field
@Mitch Oh joy!
 
Mitch
Mitch
If you're on a bike it's great
 
Galois in the Field
Galois in the Field
I love you already tbh
 
Mitch
Mitch
blushes
 
Galois in the Field
Galois in the Field
I have to go, I wish you all the best!
Apparently the word translated to "after fright" but they are offline now, so I can't ask for the pre-translation, farewell!
 
terdon
terdon
3:20 PM
@Mitch ATI as opposed to NVIDIA. Re: insidious until they become invidious.
 
Mitch
Mitch
3:31 PM
@GaloisintheField almost sounds like PTSD, but that would be more like current fears of the unknown that one has because of something that really did happen.
@terdon Oh. Duh. It would have helps if I had understood what ATI was.
 
SBM
SBM
@Mitch ATI : Array Technology Inc makers of Radeon graphics cards
That company was bought by AMD
 
Færd
Færd
4:10 PM
What's a barman called in North America?
Or generally, a barperson, if that doesn't sound weird.
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
4:43 PM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: What is an idiom for overcoming a life obstacle? by juan on english.SE
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
5:23 PM
@MattE.Эллен Not at all, anyone can learn Latin!
@Mitch It's Ørberg's Lingua Latina per se Illustrata.
Officially it's not online, but you can just increment the 001s in the url (two instances) and see how far you'll get.
Hans Ørberg
Hans Henning Ørberg (April 21, 1920 – February 17, 2010) was born in Denmark and received a master's degree in English, French and Latin at the University of Copenhagen. He dedicated a great part of his life (1946 to 1952 and 1961 to 1989) to the teaching of these languages in schools in Denmark; 1963-1989 at Grenaa Gymnasium. == Career == From 1953 to 1961 he worked in the Naturmetodens Sproginstitut, an institute where the languages are taught according to the "natural method" of learning. While there he created a new course in Latin: Lingua Latina secundum naturae rationem explicata published...
 
Matt E. Эллен
Matt E. Эллен
@Cerberus :D I meant that quoque sounds like croquet
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
6:05 PM
Ahah!
Which is a very easy and casual sport that you can set up anywhere!
 
Færd
Færd
6:38 PM
> Almost within hours of its release on March 15, our report was greeted by what can only be described as hysteria. The US ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, denounced it and demanded that the UN repudiate it.
> The newly elected secretary general, António Guterres, quickly and publicly called for ESCWA to withdraw the report from its website, and when Rima Khalaf, the head of the commission, resisted, Guterres insisted. Rather than comply, Khalaf resigned. Soon thereafter, the report was withdrawn from the commission’s website, despite its having been published with a disclaimer noting that it represents the views of its authors and not necessarily that of ESCWA or the UN.
(from here)
If it's too long, you can just read the Executive Summary part (about 5 pages).
And if you happened to know of any solid, detailed response that challenges the report, I'd be glad to have the link.
 
terdon
terdon
7:02 PM
@Færd I doubt such a thing is possible. Only the US and Israel itself would object to what that report (seems to—I only read the executive summary) claims.
And that wonderful Israeli sleight of hand whereby any criticism of Israel becomes criticism of Jews and, by extension, antisemitic never ceases to amaze me.
 
Færd
Færd
@terdon An old trick. Everyone uses it to escape criticism.
 
terdon
terdon
A very old trick, unfortunately, yes.
And hated by all the Jews I know. Then again, I don't tend to hang out with Zionists, for obvious reasons.
 
Færd
Færd
Does it (the trick) have a name?
 
terdon
terdon
Hmm. Don't know.
 
Færd
Færd
Where you dissolve yourself in a larger group to excite them (and others) and make them offended by criticism that's specifically leveled at you.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
7:18 PM
@terdon Yeah, that's kind of annoying.
Then again, there is perhaps one small kernel of truth in it.
That is, why does everyone always criticise Israel so much more than other countries?
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus No there isn't. Yes, very often criticism of Israel is fueled by anti-semitism. That, however, does not imply that any criticism of Israel should be looked at in that light.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Why is it picked out over e.g. Jordan, Bangladesh, England?
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus Uhm. Because it is a shockingly violent and oppressive religious regime?
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@terdon But aren't most countries just as bad or worse?
Claiming that criticism of Israel must be anti-Semitism of course remains a fallacy.
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus Not really, no. Israel is, for example, constantly flouting international treaties and continuing with its settler program. It also tends to go around killing people a good deal more than average.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
7:21 PM
And e.g. Indonesia isn't?
Or a hundred other countries?
 
terdon
terdon
It is the only nuclear power that has been involved in (officially) expansionist wars in the last few decades. At least it has so far shown restraint and hasn't used any of its bombs.
@Cerberus Is it? How?
(honest question, I don't know the first thing about Indonesia)
In any case, the most damning thing about Israel is its disproportionate reaction to violence perpetrated against it and refusal to countenance any criticism of violence perpetrated by it.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@terdon Well, it has oppressed Timor in the past, and it is still oppressing Moluccans, Paupuas, and probably a host of other second-class citizens.
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus Oppression is one thing. Going out and grabbing the land of your neighbors in the night is quite another.
 
Færd
Færd
I don't know if Israel kills more people than the average country with as much power as it has. Especially if we count in indirect engagement and fueling wars between other countries.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@terdon That's exactly what they did with the Moluccan islands, Timor, western New Guinea, etc.
 
terdon
terdon
7:25 PM
@Færd I was talking about the ration of Israeli to Palestinian deaths. Last time I looked into this it was around one Israeli per 10 Palestinians.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@terdon And Indonesia's reactions are proportionate?
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus They may very well have. As I said, I don't know the first thing about that part of the world. Admittedly, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has gotten a lot more press.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Indeed, I think the press attention is one part of the issue.
Another is that we see Israel as a western, advanced country.
 
terdon
terdon
Exactly. Which they are, in so many ways, and that makes it even worse.
 
sumelic
sumelic
Does anyone want to cast a third delete vote on What is the plural form of “phoenix”? I don't think it's such a terrible question on its own, but the accepted answer is quite bad in my opinion (just lists two forms with no explanation; cites Wiktionary, which is not a very trustworthy source, for the dubious-looking invariant plural) and the question is closed so nobody can submit a better answer.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
7:27 PM
But perhaps one part of the issue is that it gets extra bad press from Muslim countries bacause they don't like Jews.
Then again, it is a vicious circle.
 
Færd
Færd
@Cerberus Why, Jews in general? Or Zionists?
I think Israel and some of the Islamic states in the region consider each other a threat.
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus Um no. It gets bad press because it goes around killing people.
@sumelic Hang on, since when can we vote to delete posts with a positive score!? Is it because it's closed?
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@sumelic Indeed, the answers are bad. But I think a good answer is possible, explaining the rationalia behind the possible plural forms in detail.
Perhaps the question need to be reopened.
 
sumelic
sumelic
@Cerberus Well, I wanted to post an answer and voted to reopen, but nobody else did. Now I'm ready to just get rid of it.
 
terdon
terdon
@sumelic What would you have answered?
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
7:31 PM
@Færd When you see lots of news items and newspaper articles about people who fall into both categories, you might begin to aequate the two...
@terdon Certainly, but how high would it score in a list of people killed per year?
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus That's the bloody problem though!
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Wouldn't 100 countries score higher?
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus Hmm. 100? Probably not. But I don't know.
Name one other country that could get away with openly bombing a US military vessel though.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@terdon Any European country?
 
sumelic
sumelic
@terdon I haven't done all the research, but I wanted to describe the origins of the various plural forms ("phoenixes" usual English plural rule, "phoenices" from Latin/Greek, "phoenix" apparently from zero-plural as in game animals) and some information about their frequencies if I could find it. Maybe some quotes as well showing the usage of authors.
 
terdon
terdon
7:35 PM
@sumelic Damn. Sounds interesting. I'd be willing to reopen.
 
sumelic
sumelic
@terdon I see. Well, I'll be happy enough if it's either reopened or deleted, so I appreciate that.
 
Færd
Færd
Maybe it's also because of the financial and political power that is behind Israel, namely the US. And the vicious Greater Israel plan to expand the state from Nile to Euphrates.
 
terdon
terdon
@sumelic Done
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
> The Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor estimated the number of deaths during the occupation from famine and violence to be between 90,800 and 202,600 and they included between 17,600 and 19,600 violent deaths or disappearances, out of a 1999 population of approximately 823,386. The truth commission held Indonesian forces responsible for about 70% of the violent killings.
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus Yeah, that's the kind of ratio I was talking about.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
7:36 PM
Those numbers are far higher than the Palestinian deaths.
And that's only 1 out of many Indonesian islands...
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus So? I don't understand why you keep bringing that up. How are the crimes of stateB in any way relevant to a discussion of the crimes of stateA?
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Because I'm trying to figure out why the crimes of the Israeli government get so much more attention than those of other, equally bad governments.
The mere number of deaths can't be the entire explanation.
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus Because the Israeli/Palestinian issue is "sexy". Why else?
 
Færd
Færd
Well, that's the current situation.
 
terdon
terdon
It's been the most important and publicized international relations issue since the second world war.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
7:39 PM
I think the idea that Indonesia is "barbaric" and Israel ought to be "civilised" is part of the explanation, with respect to the western public opinion.
@terdon Yes, but why?
 
terdon
terdon
That too, sure.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
It is a minor conflict that affects fairly few people.
But then why don't 'we' hate America more than Israel?
They've killed far more people.
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus 1) After the second world war, the Jews as a people were, for excellent reasons, very much at the forefront of everyone's minds. The implicit current of anti-semitism that had been the norm for so many centuries was challenged. Which is absolutely good and proper.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Yes...
 
terdon
terdon
2) Israel made one hell of a splash. 3) It is still a buzzword in US politics and no US politician has been able to get elected without toeing the Israeli line.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
7:40 PM
I don't understand 2.
 
skull petrol
skull petrol
^
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus Very good marketing, powerful political lobbies etc.
UN resolutions and all that jazz.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
And I don't understand the relevance of 3: how does this affect e.g. Persian or European public opinion?
@terdon But shouldn't that have the opposite effect?
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus because it does. Whether you like it or not, the US's position on any subject is very important geopolitically.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Umm not really?
 
terdon
terdon
7:42 PM
@Cerberus No, it has the effect of making one hell of a splash.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
It is an outlier, and the whole issue (Israel criticised very severely) does not apply to America.
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus yes really. One of the dubious perks of being a superpower.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
I don't think I understand your point.
 
skull petrol
skull petrol
Fact: Einstein was offered the presidential position of Israel.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
That might have been nice.
 
terdon
terdon
7:44 PM
@Cerberus Oh yes, of course it is, but a very, very noisy one. The US is the country whose politics are best known to non citizens. So things that are important in the US tend to be heard about even outside the US.
Compare that to the political problems of, for example, Spain or Zimbabwe.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@terdon I still don't understand. The phaenomenon I'm trying to investigate does not apply to America, it doesn't exist there (substantially).
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus I am explaining that part of the reason the I/P issue is much better known than other similar ones is that it is so important in US politics.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Better known?
 
terdon
terdon
Yes
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
The issue is known because of its own dynamic, I think.
 
terdon
terdon
7:46 PM
I am, perforce, referring mainly to countries in Europe and the Americas.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Why?
 
terdon
terdon
Because those are the countries I can speak to.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
I am referring to those countries where the issue is most clearly observed, in Europe and the Muslim world.
 
terdon
terdon
Whose politics I can speak to I mean. I simply don't know how well known the I/P issue is in Swaziland.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
But you do know how it is in e.g. Iran.
Or France.
 
terdon
terdon
7:48 PM
I was referring to how famous the issue is in those countries.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
It is indeed well known.
 
Færd
Færd
Why do you put the whole Muslim world in one category?
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
But so is e.g. the Syrian crisis.
 
terdon
terdon
Which is why so many people object to Israel's behavior. Not necessarily because it is the worst among all states, but because it is the worst they know about.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Færd Because I think most public opinions there, as in Europe, are pretty anti-Israel?
 
terdon
terdon
7:50 PM
@Færd In the specific question of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, it is reasonable to lump the Muslim world together since, with the slight exception of Turkey, their external policy and public opinion of Israel are very similar.
 
Færd
Færd
@Cerberus I don't see that. Some Arab/Islamic states are becoming allies with Israel to be able to stand up to other Arab/Islamic states of the region.
 
terdon
terdon
Note that we're also lumping all of Europe together and for the same reason.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@terdon Indeed, but then the question is, why do they know so much about it? And also, there are other matters they know much about, like the Syrian war or Ukraine: why don't they have similarly critical opinions on those countries?
 
terdon
terdon
@Færd Heh, now why are you putting Arabs and Muslims in the same category? :P
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Færd Sure, a few governments do that. But not public opinions, I believe.
 
Færd
Færd
7:51 PM
I expressly divided them.
 
terdon
terdon
@Færd Ah, OK, misread the slash.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
At any rate, I was of course generalising.
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus They know so much about it for the reasons I mentioned above. And they don't know anywhere near as much about either Syria or Ukraine. Not even in the same ball park.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Færd But in Holland, where most people are anti-Israel, the Turks and Moroccans are even more anti that most other groups.
@terdon Perhaps also because the conflict has been lingering for so long.
 
terdon
terdon
Precisely
And because it's much simpler in some ways.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
7:52 PM
Still, I don't feel that that explains it all.
 
terdon
terdon
Well, at first glance, anyway.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
I also think there may be an ethnic component.
Just as between e.g. Shiites and Sunnites (although that is more complicated, is it ethnic anyway, etc.).
 
Færd
Færd
@Cerberus Sometimes public opinion follows the regime's policies. And sometimes the state's policies reflect the public opinion. In this case the policy of Saudi making friends with Israel and speak ill of Iran reflects the fact that the hatred between Shiites and Sunnis can surpass the hatred between Muslims and Zionists.
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus I dunno. I hope not, but I can't be sure. My personal position is largely molded my my father's experiences. He left his parent's house in the last years of high school to live with a Jewish family and has very close ties to Jewish culture. On the other hand, he spent a few years living in the west bank and got a masters in middle eastern studies, focusing on the I/P conflict.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Færd Sure, that is sometimes possible. But that doesn't mean that the Saudi population still doesn't hate Israel.
 
terdon
terdon
7:55 PM
So absolutely not an anti semite in any way, but very much pro Palestinian and that's how I was raised.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@terdon Indeed, I think the left in Europe, which is probably the most anti-Israel group, is certainly not acting out of anti-Semitism.
At least not that I have ever observed them to be so.
:36370980 Corrected!
 
Færd
Færd
@Cerberus I honestly don't know if they do or don't.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
I do!
 
Færd
Færd
About the crowd or the elite?
 
terdon
terdon
@Cerberus How?
 
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