English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2015-03-28 (page 2 of 2)

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5:07 PM

Yes. Wait. What? So had the face of some primary school girl? or was the identity of the person the girl but she had my face?

I am kinda a cartoon character though

user116848

Yo Yo peeps!

Hey!

user116848

I am being informal. Is that okay? looks innocent

user116848

:-)

user116848

Good thing this is one of those places where I can talk freely.

5:11 PM

claro!

5:30 PM

@Mitch Oh, no, that was a different dream.

You were square-faced.

Short blond hair.

No idea why.

For all I know, you might be black.

But I don't think the face was someone else's, it wasn't anyone I knew.

1 hour later…

6:40 PM

Yeah, I dont look like any of that.

Right.

7:29 PM

> At last, a computer that understands you like your mother.

funny sentence because there are 3 different interpretations

user116848

Wow! Really?

user116848

Ahh

user116848

I feel dumb.

user116848

This is amusing:

user116848

user image

7:33 PM

> I saw her duck with a telescope

user image

What? if you have a finite vocabulary, how can you make an infinite number of sets from the vocabulary?

Hmm, maybe they allow repetition of the same word

@crl Ctrl, son of the son of the son of the son of the son of...

They do.

right

user116848

7:49 PM

I am getting a headache reading that :)

> recognize speech
wreck a nice beach

2 hours later…

9:27 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A nice anecdote about automatic updates:

> The March 13 match between the football clubs Chemnitz Niners and the Paderborn Baskets was set to begin normally, when Paderborn (the host) connected its laptop to the scoreboard in the 90 minutes leading up to the game. In an interview with the German newspaper, Die Zeit (Google Translate), Patrick Seidel, the general manager of Paderborn Baskets said that at 6:00pm, an hour and a half before the scheduled start time, the laptop was connected "as usual."

"But as both teams warmed up, the computer crashed," he said. "When we booted it again at 7:20pm, it started automatically downl…

10:17 PM

Could someone help me determine why one of my questions was closed?

@Kyth'Py1k Probably because we didn’t understand it.

Presumably. The issue is that I don't understand why it wasn't understandable. It is at english.stackexchange.com/questions/234254/…

-3

Q: What is a term for an animal, place, thing, or person?

I know nouns are words that represent an animal, place, thing, or person, but not a single word that represents them themselves.

word-choice single-word-requests

That does not make sense to me.

What is the difference between words that represent stuff and words that represent themselves?

What about it doesn't make sense?

This is why it was closed.

Please give an example.

10:21 PM

An example of what?

The thing you want to know.

The word word represents itself.

What else are you looking for?

I was looking for a word that represents a person, place, thing, or animal.

Nouns.

Thing.

Stuff.

3

Q: Word for phrases that are examples of what they describe

Is there a word (or phrase) for phrases that are examples of what they describe? For example, "You the verb" to tell someone they forgot a verb in an online posting, or "spacesmakethingseasiertoread".

single-word-requests phrase-requests

Noun represents a word that represents a person, place, thing, or animal.

Persons, places, and animals are things.

Persons are animals are things.

Next?

Nouns are more than that, by the way.

Persons are animals, and places and animals are things.

10:24 PM

@Kyth'Py1k What do you mean by represent? Do you mean describe?

I mean denotes

See, we aren’t getting anywhere.

Could you give an example sentence where you would use this term?

For example, the word "blue" represents that sensation you get when you look up at the sky

Does it?

10:25 PM

I'd have thought it describes the color.

Vertigo is the sensation. :P

Yes, the sensation I'm referring to is the color. Perhaps I misused the word sensation.

Acrophobia is what some people feel when they look up at the sky.

jinx

Colors are things.

Ideas are things.

Abstractions are things.

Sensations are things.

@Kyth'Py1k give us an example sentence where you would use the word you're looking for. That might make it clearer.

Okay. Here's an example: "All physical x have a mass," where x is the word I want.

I mean, you could say Yesterday, I saw a human, a dog, a tree and something blue. I love all those things!

@Kyth'Py1k things/objects

Objects in that particular example.

10:28 PM

A photon does not have mass. :)

But it is a thing. :)

thing is the lowest ontology

@tchrist Ah, but is it a physical thing?

ouch

I hate that word.

@tchrist is?

sorry :))

10:29 PM

Ontology

@terdon It can kill you.

It's because I have read about web semantics

@tchrist So can curiosity but it ain't physical.

Death by sunburn.

Or gamma rays.

Those are not just ideas.

In physics, mass is a property of a physical body which determines the strength of its mutual gravitational attraction to other bodies, its resistance to being accelerated by a force, and in the theory of relativity gives the mass–energy content of a system. The SI unit of mass is the kilogram (kg). Mass is not the same as weight, even though we commonly calculate an object's mass by measuring its weight. A woman standing on the Moon would weigh less than she would on Earth because of the lower gravity, but she would have the same mass. For everyday objects and energies well-described by Newtonian...

@tchrist No, but I don't know that I'd call something with no mass physical.

Well, it ain’t spiritual. :)

10:32 PM

I don't think thing is the correct term. It seems "thing" typically refers to inanimate objects.

By no means.

Anything is a thing.

@Kyth'Py1k Depends on the context.

Most of its definitions on dictionary.com seems to say so.

But you can always use object, that's probably closer to what you're after.

@Kyth'Py1k You get what you pay for.

10:34 PM

A mind is a terrible thing to waste is not referring to the brain, it's more metaphorical.

What’s bothering you? Nothing. No really, what’s bothering you? Well, existential ennui. Really? I didn’t know that was a thing. Yeah, it’s a thing.

> For everyday objects and energies well-described by Newtonian physics, mass describes the amount of matter in an object.

user image

Looking at the definition of object, it seems to be what I'm looking for, but it seems to have a different meaning in common speech. Typically, I don't think people are considered objects.

Of course they are.

@Kyth'Py1k Context is everything.

10:35 PM

I remember someone asking me if I considered people to be objects. I said yes, and I think that made her think I was a psychopath.

So I figured people weren't considered objects.

They have mass.

Objectively.

Humans, pigs and trees all exist on the planet earth. Each of these objects behaves differently when tickled.

ELMO!

:)

@Kyth'Py1k People are objects and they are not objects; it depends on context.

10:37 PM

In what way does it depend on context?

Happiness is not an object, but it can be a subject.

In a discussion about the physical nature of things, or the perception of things in the exterior world by our senses, it makes sense to say people are objects.

Anyways, object is too specific. I want to include non-physical things.

THING

In a discussion about agents and non-agents, about ethics, theft, or the law, it makes sense to say people are not objects.

Object is not a word with a very fixed, limited, unchangeable meaning. Hardly any word is, for that matter...

10:39 PM

Law? Res ipsa. :)

Both the lex and the res...

And the rex.

Meanwhile, all things are things.

Even nonphysical things.

Light is a thing.

The problem with "thing" is that it usually doesn't refer to people.

Pity.

That, too depends on context.

10:40 PM

Confusion is a thing.

Is nothing a thing?

Nothing is the absence of thing.

But it's probably not the right word for what you're looking for—although I still don't understand what it is you're looking for.

Yes, but it seems rare for "thing" to refer to people.

@Kyth'Py1k you seem to want a word that is both specific and non-specific at the same time. You can't really do that.

10:41 PM

I don't want one that's specific. I want it to be as non-specific as possible.

13 mins ago, by terdon

I mean, you could say Yesterday, I saw a human, a dog, a tree and something blue. I love all those things!

There’s something on my roof. Oh, that’s Hairy.

"Thing" is in most contexts too specific.

@Kyth'Py1k Um. No?

Thing is not particularly specific.

10:41 PM

Can you give us a long list of words that should fall under your category, and a long list of words that should not? Then perhaps we can come up with a fitting term.

Yes, give us a word that your desired word would not apply to.

And a few full sentences + context where you blank out the term too, so that we may give you a word that fits the right context.

Okay. What should fall under: apple, ninja, sun, moon, Earth, pluto, people, fish, animals, plants, Australia. What should fall under it: run, move, walk, sing, if, but.

Because otherwise we are shooting in the dark.

what shouldn't*

10:43 PM

OK.

The second list is what shouldn't fall under it.

Up arrow.

What about up arrow?

for edition (it's a down arrow near the message, and a up arrow key in the textarea)

How about some sentences + context?

10:44 PM

@Kyth'Py1k Nouns versus not-nouns?

Sentence: I've been looking for x that can save my planet from the aliens. This x could be a person, weapon, or something else.

How about love, precipitation, addition, wit?

Yes, love, precipitation, addition, and wit count.

All things bright and beautiful.

How about "a means"?

An instrument, a tool?

10:45 PM

Give us a noun which is not one of your things.

Or just "something"?

A means that would work in the given context, but not in others.

So you want to designate everything but actions?

OK then give us other contexts.

Yes, everything but actions.

10:46 PM

And why does it need to be the same word in different contexts?

Addition can be an action...

What is this for?

Addition is adding.

Adding is an action.

It doesn't it just seems that I usually can't find a suitable word.

q23[049u

Perhaps there is no suitable word?

A word for what?

10:47 PM

But can you give us another context, where a means would not fit?

For example, consider the sentence "I've been trying to make a program that sees any x and then prints out what it's called."

Do you now see why your question was closed?

thing.

@Kyth'Py1k That is too broad, it leaves open too many options.

Would it really be clear that "thing" would also refer to people?

> I've been trying to make a program that recognizes anything and then prints out what the thing it just recognized is called.

10:48 PM

@Kyth'Py1k Depends on the context. In your first sentence, "something" would work. Your second sentence provides too little context to tell.

Can it recognize the Halting Problem? :)

Here's another example: "Sometimes I'm late to work because I forget about x," where x could be a person who need to be taken care of.

Can it see injustice? Poverty? Tardiness? Hopelessness?

About something, about a chore, about an obligation...

If it must fit both sentences, then I don't think you'll get any more specific than "thing".

Sometimes I’m late to work because I forgot to get up early enough.

10:51 PM

That is not like you.

Well, no.

The problem with "thing" is that it may be thought of as being too specific, as it usually excludes people.

I am just speaking for her.

Sigh.

I don't think the context is enough to see that it includes people.

In which sentence?

10:51 PM

All of them.

I think something can include people in those sentences, provided that the speaker doesn't know yet whether it will be people or non-people.

If he already knows it's people, then he should say someone.

Somewhere something someone somehow somersaulted somewhat intrigues me.

BRB

Yeah, I suppose "thing" or "something" is my best bet. Still, I think it would sometimes be confusing as to whether people are included.

Someday, somewhen.

Your quest is confusing me. :(

10:54 PM

Anyways, the main reason I came is because I don't understand what's so confusing about my question. Why is it so hard for others to understand?

@Kyth'Py1k Well, you saw how long it took us and we were actually chatting with you.

Seriously?

Yes. I understand that it's confusing and I worded it poorly. I just don't understand how it was confusing and poorly worded.

@Kyth'Py1k I would just use anything instead of any thing there. \

@Kyth'Py1k Next time, include an example sentence. It's very hard to describe words, giving examples is usually the best way.

Okay, thanks.

I'll try to do that in the future.

Still, what exactly is so hard to understand about the sentence, "What is a term for an animal, place, thing, or person?"

11:00 PM

there are many categories of "things that are not actions/verbs" not just one

Your question is vague, it looks like a longer list of things

@Kyth'Py1k It does not make sense.

Every possible noun is a thing.

Oh, I think I understand. Do you two know how to read first order logic?

By definition.

I think those who read the question parsed it very differently than I did.

Franky, there are many, many things wrong/unclear about your question:

> I know nouns are words that represent an animal, place, thing, or person, but not a single word that represents them themselves.

11:03 PM

What else was wrong or unclear?

First of all, that's not what nouns are. Courage is a noun and so is greeting.

Then, words don't really represent things so that was confusing.

You're right. I forgot to add "idea" to the list.

Also, there is no question there.

How don't words represent things?

Yup.

11:04 PM

not a single word that represents them themselves. What them?

words that represent an animal, place, thing, or person.

Or idea.

Nouns.

Things.

@Kyth'Py1k And smells, colors, feelings, tendencies, histories, jokes... the list goes on.

We’re circling.

Circles too!

11:05 PM

Spheres.

The Universe.

Okay, anyways, I see I used a sentence that could be mis-parsed, it was unclear what "them" referred to, I didn't give an example, and I excluded ideas, etc.

I still don’t know what you want.

Did I mess anything else up?

And you didn't actually ask a question. That's kind of important on a Q&A site :)

How is "What is a term for an animal, place, thing, or person?" not a question?

11:07 PM

Noun.

Sometimes pronouns, too. :)

@Kyth'Py1k That's the title, there was no question in the body. It's generally a good idea to have a question in the actual body.

No, noun doesn't work. Nouns denote things and people.

There we go again.

LORD

HAVE

MERCY

Oh, ok. I'll later have a question in the bottom.

11:08 PM

Nouns are everything that is.

Anything else?

Any everything that is not.

@Kyth'Py1k breath, breadth, sound all nouns. Hell, so is noun.

GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF A NOUN THAT DOES NOT COUNT!

Noun: a word (other than a pronoun) used to identify any of a class of people, places, or things common noun, or to name a particular one of these proper noun.

11:08 PM

Don’t make me get out the big book.

Fish isn't really a noun. The word "fish" is a noun.

@Kyth'Py1k Huh?

Ok, you don’t want English.

You want metaphysics.

I think we're confusing words with what words denote.

The word fish is either a noun or a verb. You mean that fish are animals not nouns?

11:09 PM

Around the corner, down two blocks, turn left.

Thrice.

Then keep on going till tomorrow.

Wait, the word "fish" isn't a noun? Why not?

@Kyth'Py1k I love to fish.

There it's a verb.

I too love two fish: I love red fish and blue fish.

Oh, I meant "fish" as in the word that represents the species.

That’s a thing.

11:11 PM

^^

And fish is not a species but never mind.

Yes, "thing" is the closest to an answer I've gotten.

@terdon Don’t get me started.

:)

I think it's as close as you shall get.

Oh, you're right terdon. Sorry for that inexcusable mistake.

11:11 PM

@Kyth'Py1k Thing, object, item, take your pick.

Stuff.

I said stuff.

Thing. It. Thingy.

@Kyth'Py1k Sorry, can't help it. I'm a pedant but I'm seeking help.

You shall not find it here.

@terdon Or whom did you have in mind to help you?

?

11:13 PM

Is it Tchrist, Or perhaps me?

Either of you.

Who what?

Beyond help, beyond hope.

To cure you of pedantry.

Oh, good lord, neither! You're both even worse pedants than I am.

11:13 PM

Ding!

Paedantry? Peasantry? Pleasantry?

:)

Pheasantry?

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: The Incomprehensiбle Room aka the Pedants' Room (no tags)

Anyways, are there any other messups in the question I originally asked?

Or would you fight over that apostrophe?

11:14 PM

Ceci n’est pas une question.

C'est une question de méta.

What isn't a question?

Oui, mais c'est pas non plus une pipe mec.

Sine meta.

He asked a question about a question.

11:16 PM

@Kyth'Py1k sorry about this, you get used to it after a while.

It's okay with me.

Why was entity eliminated again?

Thanks for the help.

@Cerberus Sexist language.

Entity typically doesn't refer to people.

11:16 PM

Good luck on your quaest(ion)!

Oh, I think so.

Entity refers to people and non-people equally.

It's just that non-people is the default for those words that refer to an overarching category including both people and things.

^^ YES

Those.

There is a hole in the wall. What caused this? Not: ~~who~~ caused this?, unless we already have a reason to suspect it might have been people.

11:18 PM

A human being is a thinking entity is a perfectly good sentence. Untrue for most people, mind, but grammatically sound.

Heh.

Agree.

Is the set of all things that do not include themselves including itself a thing?

^ < sense

@tchrist Ask Russel.

Somethink to thing about.

11:22 PM

You did that on purpose.

My flavorite swimming companion.

Heh :)

I was considering spelling it like the French prince but you read my mind.

@terdon Have you read Zelazny’s Call Me Conrad / This Immortal yet?

No.

@Kyth'Py1k That you for helping our room live up to its title.

@terdon You should.

11:25 PM

Actually, I might not have read any Zalazny at all. Cool! I'm just finishing a book.

Read This Immortal and Creatures of Light and Darkness and the first but not the second five Amber books, all of which are quite short.

OK, just bought This Immortal.

I always think of you as Conrad. :)

@tchrist I'll have to read it to decide whether or not to take that as a compliment :)

Heh.

Indeed!

11:29 PM

Have you read Dhalgren by the way?

I didn’t manage.

Really?

I was probably too young.

It was hard at times but bleedin' excellent!

This Immmortal won the Hugo, by the way. Please don’t read any reviews or synopses though. Just read it.

11:30 PM

OK

Sorry for going afk

Anyways, thanks for the discussion. I learned a lot about how to ask less bad questions on SE.

May you ask fewer bad questions as well!

Can I give you two Kudos or something?

Is Kudos a thing? :)

XD

Well, have a good day/year/life.

11:36 PM

Hopefully those are three different things. :)

Cheers

cheers

I've lived in England. It rubs off.

I hope so anyway.

Kudos is singular.

Bye!

@Cerberus Pedant!

Sorry, pedantS!

11:57 PM

@terdon Thank you. You too.

:)

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Mar '1528

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