English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Omen

12:03 AM

have you flagged them?

Cerberus

12:35 AM

@RegDwigнt I'm afraid @Terdon is right.

I don't speak this dialectical novel weirdness.

Ancient literary Greek is quite different grammatically.

Mitch

1:06 AM

@Neeku Dude! Stop rejecting those! He's doing good work... See:

15

Q: Call to action: fill in image descriptions

We had a request a couple of years ago to replace "enter image decription here" with some sort of generic text. I think this is a bad idea, as it doesn't add anything. Shog's comment on the proposal essentially articulates how I feel: I would rather it changed to something like, "Author hates...

tchrist

1:23 AM

@Mitch As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool returns to his folly.

I propose more downvotes.

Cerberus

And so a purple square returns to its room.

tchrist

1:38 AM

Mitch knows whereof I speak, while you who so seldom venture out of your den enjoy nostrils blissfully numb to the troll’s taint which even now like some rabid bulldog-puppy throwing a tantrum poisons our community composure less swiftly but more surely than even an adder’s dripping fangs could effect.

> . . . I do not believe that Latin ferus for “wild” and Latin fero for “I bear” have been shown to be related.

3

A: Two quite different meanings of “bear”

Probably not, but maybe. For the ursid, Old English used bera, cognate to Old (and modern) Norse björn, and which both drew from older roots relating to the color brown, one of the creature’s most common colors. For the verb you’re referring to, Old English used the strong verb beran. It had t...

I’m simplifying, but it was a simplistic question.

So fero and beran yes, but ferus and bera no.

Or probably not.

Cerberus

1:56 AM

Good.

No Proto-Indo-European root for bera?

tchrist

It’s *BHER meaning brown for the noun, and *BHER meaning carry for the verb.

But this is a fellow who thinks words that are spelled the same are the same word, so I didn’t care to distract him.

I’m writing those lazily. They have fancy diacritics, depending whom you ask.

Cerberus

2:12 AM

Hmm but those are very close.

Nothing about the two Proto-Indo-European roots' being related?

tchrist

They appear identical.

But the relationship in PIE was the same as in English: apparently coincidental.

Why should carrying something be brown?

Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/bʰer-

== Proto-Indo-European == === Root === *bʰer- to bear, carry ==== Derived terms ==== Present stem: *bʰére- Aorist stem: none Perfect stem: none *bʰōr (“thief”) ==== Descendants ==== From *bʰér-ti-s (“the act of carrying”): Armenian: Old Armenian: բարդ (bard) Proto-Germanic: *gaburdiz Old English: gebyrd Old Norse: byrð (“birth, descendance”) English: birth Gothic: 𐌲𐌰𐌱𐌰𐌿𐍂𐌸𐍃 (gabaurþs, “birth”) Old High German: giburt (“birth”) German: Geburt (“birth”) Middle Dutch: ghebort (“birth”) Dutch: geboorte (“birth”) Latin: fors (“chance”), forda (“cow in calf”) Persian: بردن, бурд...

There is a derived term given meaning thief.

Beowulf was a bee-thief.

And a bear.

I can’t get straight story on it.

etymonline.com/…

They have a PIE root *bher- (1) and a PIE root *bher- (3).

I don’t know who’s on second.

So those are two different PIE roots, bher#1 and bher#3.

I know nothing.

I terribly fear we may have to go into brun and bruins, and burnishings.

English bruin of course having been long ago stolen (borne away?) from the Dutch.

Cerberus

Doubtless.

So there are two similar-sounding Proto-Indo-European roots, and no connection is known between them.

tchrist

That’s what it looks like to me.

Jasper Loy

@terdon I don't think Americans are too stupid to learn IPA. A shocking thing to say.

I don't think I will listen to Lawler anymore, after that silly comment.

tchrist

@JasperLoy Oh really? Just think of how many are sub-arsible in this regard.

Cerberus

2:27 AM

Not many people in any country will known the IPA.

Jasper Loy

That is why they must learn it. Once they learn it, it is easy.

tchrist

Of course not. Why would they? It’s not the MyCountryPA.

Jasper Loy

I was very confused by the MW way of showing pronunciation. That is one big reason why I am not getting MW (Collegiate Dictionary).

tchrist

I have no fucking clue what MW means. It’s obscene, though.

Jasper Loy

However, note that MW Advanced Learner's Dictionary does use IPA.

@tchrist Merriam-Webster's.

tchrist

2:29 AM

no no no no no

I knew your abbreviation.

I have no fucking clue what their hieroglyphics mean.

And there is no reason whatsoever to learn them.

Because they have no meaning in any other context and are highly inaccurate to boot.

Jasper Loy

Now it is also very weird that many of the Oxford dictionaries do not show IPA for common words, saying that native speakers should know them.

tchrist

They rather offend me, in fact.

By being stupidly wrong.

And refusing to reform.

tchrist

2:44 AM

@medica “Methinks the lady protesteth too much” is vying with “As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool to his folly”: which shall prevail now that irony is dead?

Tonight is as warm and balmy as ever a summer’s eve.

Strange.

It’s still over 70 degrees this late at night, the sun now three hours gone.

Perhaps the portents were wrong, and winter has been cancelled. I still gather juicy raspberries daily, my basil soars unwithered, and each day more bright morning glories burst open and last the whole day long.

But just three years ago we had something like 11 degrees by now.

Yoyo weather.

Jasper Loy

It's a quiet night in chat. Where is everyone? It's only 11 pm on Fri night, Eastern time.

tchrist

And the coyotes nés prairie wolves, for now at least, come no more at night to terrify me and those I love beneath my window at night. Apparently rabies has run its course through the immediately-local populace, and they are diminished.

Easter is a long ways off.

Jasper Loy

2 more months to Xmas, yay!

tchrist

What joy does Christmas bring you?

Jasper Loy

I like to look at the decorations and lights in the shops.

tchrist

2:55 AM

Lights in the shops?

Jasper Loy

Shopping malls are the only good thing where I live, for me.

Well, I mean the lighting, you know.

tchrist

Then there are none good, nay not one.

The lights outside are more impressive.

But the blue ones bother me.

You cannot look at them.

Somebody thought that using LEDs would save money.

But they are for the most part mono-spectral.

And pure spectral blue is below the frequency at which we humans can ever focus.

So the blue ones will always be wrong for us, always fuzzy, always twinkly.

SrJoven

ouch

tchrist

@SrJoven You just have to hold your nose, sometimes.

SrJoven

I almost get thrown out by trying to do what's being asked.

tchrist

2:59 AM

You’re arguing with a troll who keeps returning to his vomit.

No good can come of that.

Or do you mean pickies?

Fixing alt text is hardly cause for suspension.

SrJoven

ok. I realized though that I should have looked up how to make good alt descriptions before I started.

tchrist

Ah.

SrJoven

I mean, to my mind, they were good, but then I'm reading they shouldn't be terribly descriptive and can even be blank.

tchrist

I rather like the inline text.

Blank is bad.

Blank means I hate blind people.

SrJoven

not if the text is public facing.

tchrist

3:00 AM

I hate people on modems.

Basically, I hate people.

Not a nice message to send.

Jasper Loy

Many people where I live hate me, and I hate them too.

SrJoven

the screen readers show everything, so reading a long diatribe of the image that is already being decribed below to everyone is a bit much to the screen readers.

tchrist

Junior High School?

I see.

As it were.

@Jasper You need to stop living in MathWorld.

It just isn’t very warm.

Jasper Loy

@tchrist You should be less cryptic. It's hard to understand what you are trying to say, lol.

SrJoven

vandalizing, though. ouch.

tchrist

3:04 AM

That’s harsh.

Jasper Loy

I was too lazy to check whether it was vandalism or not.

SrJoven

The secret is it's invisible edit!

Mitch

@SrJoven I think he just didn't understand.

SrJoven

You know, unless you see the side by side ... :)

@Mitch thanks for the support, though.

Mitch

You have to use 'inspect element'

or that's the only way I know how.

Jasper Loy

3:06 AM

I will go to bed in 1 hour, at 12 nn. I was out walking the whole night.

I just ate 3 raw eggs.

SrJoven

oh. I didn't know if the edit review shows diff

Mitch

Do lots of other people walk around at night? Or rather, are there any people awake in the big city at night?

@SrJoven It shows absolutely nothing.

Cerberus

@Mitch Of course.

Mitch

@JasperLoy Yuck. Kinda slimy.

Cerberus

Have you never lived in a city?

Jasper Loy

3:07 AM

@Mitch On the weekends, many youngsters go pubbing. They then enter the mall I am walking in to pee.

SrJoven

@Mitch then I can certainly understand why it felt like edit rep spam.

Mitch

@JasperLoy Also, yuck.

tchrist

Why are you going to the mall to pee, Jasper?

Cerberus

Sunday night at 5 AM will be relatively quite.

If you're lucky, you might see no people at all in a street, for a couple of minutes.

Mitch

but in Jasper's big city?

Jasper Loy

3:08 AM

@Mitch Big???

Cerberus

I see three people in my street, within 20 metres of my house.

Mitch

You're not in a big city?

Cerberus

It's 5 AM.

Jasper Loy

@tchrist There is a mall which is open 24 hours. Most shops are closed. But the lights and music are on. I go there to walk.

@Mitch Well, I thought the island is small.

tchrist

I am pretty sure it is not 5am Sunday night anywhere. Nor can be.

It may perhaps be Saturday morning.

Cerberus

3:10 AM

It's Friday night.

tchrist

But Sunday night?

Cerberus

And Saturday morning.

I can only see a small segment of my street from where I'm sitting.

tchrist

@JasperLoy But you were walking in to pee.

Cerberus

*into

Jasper Loy

@tchrist OK, I get it now.

tchrist

3:12 AM

looks for a dweomer switch to undo

Jasper Loy

Today, there was this American teenage boy and girl who said hi to me. They were a bit drunk I think.

He said "Hey!"

The she said "Hey, have a nice walk!"

Then I said "Hey!"

Then he said "Hey, bro!"

LOL

tchrist

It is relaxing to watch the children frolic free at the water gardens, is it not?

Jasper Loy

After that, they sat at the taxi stand with their beer bottles.

Cerberus

@tchrist Hey!

I know Dweomer only from certain computer games.

Hmm I see it is from Norse mythology.

Jasper Loy

This phrase, "carry the weight of the world upon your shoulders", have you heard it before?

Mitch

3:19 AM

Yes. It's very heavy.

tchrist

@Cerberus “It is ill dealing with such a foe: he is a wizard both cunning and dwimmer-crafty, having many guises.” and “Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!” and “It is not to be wondered at: webs of deceit were ever woven in Dwimordene.” and “. . . and she watched them until they passed into the shadows under the black Dwimorberg, the Haunted Mountain, in which was the Gate of the Dead”

Jasper Loy

@Mitch Sometimes, when I think too much about other people's problems, I tell myself that I don't have to carry the weight of the world upon my shoulders.

Mitch

@JasperLoy how built up is it around you? All urban and tall apartment buildings? or lots of trees or what?

@JasperLoy yeah, there are too many other people and their problems to worry about.

tchrist

† demerlayk. Obs.

Forms: 3 dweomerlak, -lac, 4 demorlayk, 4–5 demerlayk(e.

Etymology: f. ME. dweomer :– OE. dwimer in ʒedwimor, -er, illusion, phantasm, ʒedwimere juggler, sorcerer + ME. layk, laik play, a. ONor. leikr (= OE. lác). Cf. dweomercræft.

Magic, practice of occult art, jugglery.

C. 1205 Lay. 270 ― Þa sende Asscanius··After heom ȝend þat lond, Þe cuþen dweomerlakes song.
C. 1205 Lay. 11326 ― Tuhten to dæðe mid drenche oðer mid dweomerlace oðer mid steles bite.
C. 1325 E.E. Allit. P. B. 1578 ― Deuinores of demorlaykes þat dremes cowþe rede.

And obviously from other famous citations of much more recent vintage.

Jasper Loy

@Mitch Well, most people here live in 16-storey buildings. Just a few train stations to town, which is mostly shopping malls and offices.

tchrist

3:22 AM

Gary Gygax it was who resurrected it in its dweomer spelling, though. Tolkien modernized it a bit.

You should be able to find dweomercræft in the OED.

Jasper Loy

It seems they said there will not be a print version of the new OED.

Who would buy it?

tchrist

It seems.

Jasper Loy

And the compact version of the OED is just too small to read comfortably.

Why are the MW dictionaries so cheap?

tchrist

Because you get what you pay for.

Jasper Loy

I was looking at MW French-English and German-English dictionaries on amazon.

Also very very cheap.

tchrist

3:27 AM

This is the only one to bother with, and even it is annoying:

amazon.com/Websters-International-Dictionary-English-Language/…

I would not call that “cheap”, nor especially dear, really.

Jasper Loy

I think I will probably get a copy of the Concise OED one of these days. Not too expensive, not too big, not too small.

tchrist

After that edition, the panderers won.

Cerberus

Ah, Tolkien, yes.

Jasper Loy

It seems that the Concise OED is the official dictionary of the UN, lol.

@cerberus Are you still using XP?

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Yes.

user116848

3:47 AM

@JasperLoy So in Singapore 'chewing gum' is not allowed but 'alcohol' is?

user116848

hi all

user116848

I mean hi again :)

Ice Boy

Hi pal :D

user116848

hey pal!

Jasper Loy

@Arrowfar The former cannot be sold locally but can be consumed. The latter can be purchased if over 18.

user116848

3:50 AM

@JasperLoy Ah, I see!

Omen

beginning to enjoy this site

Cerberus

Good!

Omen

4:09 AM

never thought I would be able to, but now have 3 answers

Cerberus

Great!

Ice Boy

5:12 AM

In some ways, it is an acquired taste.

Omen

indeed!

@IceBoy I joined due to one of my answers from Academia was migrated over here

Omen

6:23 AM

anyone here?

Ice Boy

no :-)

Omen

lol

I have an idea for a question.... not sure how to word it

an etymology question

Ice Boy

askaway

Omen

Something along the lines of "Why do some sciences end with -ology and some with -metry"

Ice Boy

hmm... worth a try

Omen

6:29 AM

however, i am conscious of being downvoted...

Cerberus

What kind of answer do you expect?

"Why" implies that there is a unified reason or cause.

It is perhaps bordering on slightly vague, perhaps unless you give more background to your question.

Omen

hmmm I am seeking to know the reasons for the difference between the uses of the two suffixes

Cerberus

Why do you think there is a reason?

Have you looked up the suffixes?

Omen

perhaps "What defines a science as having the suffixes 'ology' and 'metry'"

hmm

Cerberus

dictionary.reference.com/browse/-metry

If you look at this dictionary entry, what specific things do you still want to know?

The suffixes -logy, -nomy, and -metry are to some extent similar.

-logy kind of means "science"; -nomy kind of means "system of rules"; -metry means "measuring".

Omen

6:34 AM

however, astrology is not a science (but I imagine was once)

Cerberus

So, in many cases, whoever came up with the name of the field first could have picked any of those three suffixes, but chose one, for reasons that we often don't know.

@Omen Yes, but it might just as well have been the name of a science, had chance acted differently.

Omen

okay, will drop the idea

Cerberus

No, you can ask it; but you just have to phrase it carefully and precisely.

Try not to make it sound too much like an open "why" question.

And I think you should include the definitions from the dictionary in your question and explain what else you want to know about those suffixes.

I'm kind of playing the Devil's Advocate here, but you know how critical the site can be...

Omen

it is just that geology and astronomy are both sciences and both are systems of rules - then you get physics...

and chemistry

Cerberus

Yes, it is to a large extent arbitrary, I think.

Omen

6:40 AM

it's one of those situations where I know the question, but not in at all sure how to write it

hence why I should drop - if I can not get my question precisely framed in my head, I should definitely not post it

Hmmm "Is there a definitive difference between sciences that have -logy, -nomy, -metry or other suffixes?"

hmmmm not feeling confident with this one

@Cerberus thank you for your time...

it would have been a duplicate anyway!

Cerberus

7:54 AM

@Omen That sounds better, I think.

Is there really a duplicate?

Omen

there is indeed

it would be a dupe of english.stackexchange.com/questions/116456/…

Cerberus

8:16 AM

Ah, yes.

But is that all you wanted to know?

Omen

not really

Cerberus

It is not much more than a list of dictionary definitions...

OK.

Omen

I know what they mean, and that they are interchangeable - but am curious if there is a definite dividing line between the uses of the suffies

Cerberus

There is to some extent, based on their intended meanings.

But in many cases each word has its own unique story to tell.

Omen

9:07 AM

chemistry in particular..

why is it not chemistology or chemology

Cerberus

10:06 AM

@Omen I don't think there is any specific reason.

It's just chance, the course of history.

Omen

hmmm I would be interested to know for sure... have posted the question

Cerberus

Chemistry contains the suffix -(e)ry.

> ME. -erie, forming ns., first occurs in words adopted from Fr., and after the analogy of these has been extensively used as an Eng. formative.

1. The Fr. -erie is of two distinct origins: a. Representing a com. Romanic -a"ria (Pr. -aria, It. -eria, Sp. -ería), produced by the addition of the suffix -"ia (Fr. -ie, -y3) to ns. or adjs. formed with the L. suffix -Qrio- (Fr. -ier, -er). A large proportion of the Fr. ns. in -ier, -er (see -er2) are designations of persons according to occupation or office; their derivatives in -erie denote sometimes the class of goods in which these perso…

From the OED.

Good luck hehe.

Omen

here it be english.stackexchange.com/questions/204491/…

Omen

10:29 AM

@Cerberus not sure if I should be worried about question..

Stack Exchange

11:24 AM

Limerick Machine: There once was a woman called Kate Who found herself filled up with hate For everything new She k…

posted on October 25, 2014 by sgdi

There once was a woman called Kate Who found herself filled up with hate For everything new She knew what to do! She’d wait for the new things to date

Omen

I give up

terdon

11:37 AM

@Omen I'm pretty sure the vast variety of -ology, -nomy and -metry, come directly from their Ancient Greek counterparts and have nothing to do with English. At least, that's the case for all the ones I can think of.

Omen

like I said, I give up

terdon

In the case of chemistry the Greek equivalent is Χημεία which has none of the suffixes inherited by English. That might be why it's changed. Same goes for Physics which is Φυσική.

In modern Greek anyway, I doubt there was a word for either in Ancient.

SmokeDetector

3:04 PM

[ SmokeDetector ] Phone number detected: +91-9950211818 mantra for success on english.stackexchange.com

Ice Boy

3:24 PM

Try this out.

user116848

@IceBoy I am losing everytime :-)

user116848

Maybe that is because I am using laptop mouse pad :)

Ice Boy

@Arrowfar me too...so I gave up

Johan Larsson

4:29 PM

with subtitles

RegDwigнt

5:36 PM

The official term for this rhetoric strategy is "using the postmodernist essay generator". — RegDwigнt ♦ 23 secs ago

@terdon химия and физика in Russian. Some people do know how to borrow properly.

Cerberus

@terdon Mmm many sciences were coined after Antiquity.

tchrist

6:17 PM

You know how your bottle of Worcestershire sauce is getting all sticky and messy about the top? Tesco’s hit upon a solution for keeping all your condiments looking smart: for a nominal fee, one can get a bottle of /ˈd͡ʒɛʃə/ to complement every bottle of /ˈwʊstəʃə/ that leaves their shelves. Call it a Sauce’s Sauce. Restauranteurs can get a new sauce caddy with a fifth slot to keep their sloppy catsup and mustard and tabasco to one side and their attractive new Wodehouse pair to the other.

Cerberus

@tchrist I don't get it.

What is Jesse?

tchrist

That would be Jeeveshire Sauce to you and me.

Cerberus

Oh, never heard of it.

tchrist

God where is a Brit when I need him?

Wodehouse.

Jeeves.

Wooster.

Cerberus

We do say /ˈwʊstərsaʊs/.

Spell it Worcestersaus.

tchrist

6:24 PM

Have you truly not seen the series nor read the stories?

Cerberus

What series?

I don't watch much television...

I know Wodehouse is a writer.

Spelled Woodhouse, I think?

But pronounced Wodehouse.

Johan Larsson

rain took our snow today

Cerberus

Jeeves is no doubt your phonetic rendering of another name.

Blasted rain!

@JohnLawler: Astronomy and economics are not from onoma "name" but from nomos "law". And I don't think onoma can mean "rule". You knew I couldn't resist. — Cerberus 10 hours ago

tchrist

@Cerberus Other way around: spelled Wodehouse and pronounced /ˈwʊdhaʊs/.

Cerberus

Oh, right.

I knew there was something about him.

Mitch

8:45 PM

What, that's it? — Mitch 25 secs ago

Jasper Loy

I am targeting 2000 by the end of this year, so 300 more to go.

I think I will achieve that by doing 5 edits every day in Nov.

Johan Larsson

Targeting 2000.0?

Jasper Loy

@JohanLarsson Yes. I have been brushing my teeth very often.

Johan Larsson

Morning & evening not much to analyze :)

Cerberus

Morning and evening!

Johan Larsson

9:00 PM

No I expect Shiny to show up with a different view.

Cerberus

About what?

Jasper Loy

@JohanLarsson By very often, I mean once in 2 days, lol.

I used to brush my teeth once a week. Bad right?

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus dental habits

@JasperLoy worse

Cerberus

Ow...

Because his teeth are so shiny?

Jasper Loy

The miracle is that none of my teeth are damaged.

No holes or anything.

Johan Larsson

9:02 PM

@Cerberus because you said morning & evening :)

Cerberus

@JasperLoy I used to not brush my teeth for a week or so. Never any damage to my teeth. However, the dentist said there can be other effects if you don't brush every day, such as gum retraction, which is bad.

@JohanLarsson What does he have to do with morning and evening?

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus OK. My gums are perfect too. I think I am not human. I already suspected long ago.

Cerberus

Oh, because it was something I said, so he would obvioulsy have to disagree?

Johan Larsson

yea

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Are you sure your gums aren't slowly retracting?

@JohanLarsson Haha OK.

Jasper Loy

9:04 PM