English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Jez

4:01 PM

our 2nd-biggest city has a population of 1m.

every 2 years, a non-integrated Birmingham immigrates

every 4 years, there's a non-integrated Birmingham increase in our population

this has been going on for over 10 years

and people claim there somehow no issue. well the UK people arent falling for it anymore

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> Provisional figures show that in 2013, 526,000 people arrived to live in the UK whilst 314,000 left, meaning that net inward migration was 212,000

> Population 64,100,000

Jez

in 2014, that's increased to about 250k

yeah, 64 million. a few years ago it was 60 million.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> Between 2001 and 2011 the population increased by an average annual rate of approximately 0.7 per cent. This compares to 0.3 per cent per year in the period 1991 to 2001 and 0.2 per cent in the decade 1981 to 1991

Jez

quite

annual 0.7% is MASSIVE population increase

frankly we should be aiming for a stable population

given our existing population density

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

List of countries by population growth rate

This article includes three lists of countries and self-governing dependent territories by population growth rate. == Methodology == The first list is based on the estimates taken from the 2006 edition of the United Nations World Population Prospects report. Figures are population growth rate estimates for the period 2005–2010 using the medium variant. The second list is based on CIA World Factbook estimates for year 2013. Dependent territories and not fully recognized states are also ranked. The third list is based on World Bank estimates for year 2009. Population is based on the de fact...

For 2013 the CIA estimates that the UK's population growth rate is #152 overall

The World bank estimates it's #138 (2009)

It's on par with other developed countries.

Jez

4:07 PM

that seems to be as a percentage of poplulation

that's not a reasonable measure

it's also appropriate to take into account physical space available for new arrivals, and capacity for integration

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's not?

Jez

no.

i also notice that a large proportion of countries "above" us are african or asian countries with totally unsustainable high birth rates that are very poor

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yes. THOSE countries have problems.

Jez

or, other European countries with the same mass immigration problem as us

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Also, the countries with negative rates have problems.

You do realize that all countries economies are designed around constant growth, right?

Jez

4:11 PM

"growth" is a very vague term

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, it's just broadly applied.

Jez

it usually refers to increasing productivity, not ever-more people. anyone with a brain knows ever-more people is unsustainable. the human population has mushroomed in th last 100 years

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And it's rooted in population growth

I didn't say it was sustainable.

Jez

well, that's unsustainable.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yes, it's unsustainable. But it is also the only economic system you have.

Jez

4:12 PM

and the more densely populated the country, the sooner the unsustainability will hit

i fail to see why it is rooted in population growth

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Nah. Not until the energy crisis.

Jez

but yeah, a lot of people are indeed saying that basing an economy around "constant growth" is dodgy. sustainability is more important

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Because you need more and more consumers and workers in order to grow the economy. There are limits to productivity improvements.

Jez

so im not averse to the idea of abandoning the "constant growth" mantra

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Unfortunately there is nothing to replace it with.

Jez

4:14 PM

ironically, the Greens who support this immigration are the main ones opposing the "constant growth" thing

sustainability?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's my belief that it will grow until it collapses, then there will be a dark age, then more growth again.

Jez

if that happens it will be because we fucked up, not because there's no other way

part of fucking up is saying "hey, uncontrolled immigration is no problemo!"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's not like those people aren't going to be somewhere. At least if they are local, you can teach them your cultural values. And despite your fears, that DOES happen. These immigrants send their kids to your schools.

Jez

looked at the views of British muslims lately?

been here and heard the languages being spoken? the number of kids in UK schools whose first language is English?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Because you know what anti-immigration people are usually like.

Jez

4:18 PM

if people didn't notice these things, there wouldn't have been such a huge rise in the importance of immigration in the national psyche (and its importance HAS risen massively... it used to be a trivial issue)

now it's pretty much the #1 issue

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Who cares what a UK schoolchild's first language is? Seriously. They will learn English by the time they graduate. My first language wasn't English.

@Jez Just because people are in an uproar about it doesn't make them right.

Jez

what was it?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 nope, but in this case, i believe they are

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It was French. I didn't know any English when I started school.

Jez

ah ben, les français ont une probleme avec immigration en masse aussi

Cerberus

@Jez Physical space isn't really an issue. Even Holland, which is far more densely populated, has only about 13% "built-up" area.

Jez

4:21 PM

ainsi la montée du Front National

@Cerberus so what? to support the built up area a much larger % of farmland is needed. then there's the fact that some of us would also like some area that hasn't been hijacked by humans

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez And I'm sure that problem has nothing to do with xenophobia and institutionalized racism at all.

Jez

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i didnt say that had nothing to do with it

but it certainly is a minor distraction that pro-immigration people like to use to kill off discussion of the issue

Cerberus

@Jez Not really. Food is not a problem at all. We are the world's third-largest agricultural exporter, I think.

And yet we have the largest built-up area of the EU, as a percentage of our total area.

Jez

@Cerberus and the amount of woodland that The Netherlands has?

Cerberus

12%. But that is irrelevant.

Jez

4:24 PM

not to some of us.

Cerberus

You don't need woods to support people.

Jez

i care about more than supporting people

Cerberus

We all do.

But physical space is just not an issue.

Jez

not if you think that's "irrelevant"

not an issue????

you're in cloud cuckoo land

Cerberus

It is irrelevant with respect to physical space.

All of Holland can wander the woods at the same time and not meet anyone else.

Jez

4:25 PM

really.

hard to believe.

Cerberus

But only a tiny percentage of the people do so at the same time, of course, so it is even less relevant.

Jez

and what about the size of your living quarters?

what if you want to live in a decent sized house?

Cerberus

Those can be increased by converting farmland.

And by reclaiming land from the sea.

Jez

erm, and lowering food output. anyway, you aren't converting farmland, i suspect farmers would be rather cross

lol

land reclamation is incredibly expensive and difficult

it's hardly a solution to mass immigration

Cerberus

As I said, we are the world's third largest agricultural exporter. There is no food problem.

@Jez Not that expensive or difficult, we've done it many times, and the new land is still very sparsely populated. Some parts of it have even been turned into nature preserves...by neglect.

Jez

4:27 PM

so your farmers are happy to lose their land

ours certainly wouldn't be

Cerberus

Of course, if they get more money by selling it to build houses on it.

Land never needs to be expropriated.

Jez

so, we have politicians saying we need to build 200,000 new houses per year

that is freaking huge

Cerberus

We build about 100,000 a year, I think.