English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@tchrist Can you call up a cite for OED "buster" used as a generic form of address for men? I could look it up in my print OED but I can't find my magnifying glass at the moment.

Cerberus

@tchrist I'm not exactly sure what happens, but sometimes Excel cannot correctly operate on a spreadsheet made in another language.

tchrist

@Robusto I hate that.

Cerberus

12:31 AM

@tchrist The Dutch are very direct and immodest!

tchrist

> buster /ˈbʌstə(r)/.

Etymology: dial. var. of burster.

1. = burster (in unknown sense).

1839 New Monthly Mag. LVI. 358 ― We can··buy a two‐penny buster at a baker’s-shop.

2. slang (chiefly U.S.). a. ‘Something great’ (W.); something that ‘takes one’s breath away’; something that provokes excessive admiration or amusement. b. A roistering blade, a dashing fellow. Also used as a slang form of address, usu. friendly or slightly disrespectful; ‘mate’, fellow; old buster: an affectionate or disrespectful designation for an elderly man. c. A frolic; a spree.

Cerberus

Too late.

tchrist

@Cerberus Yours isn’t amenable to murine snarfage.

Robusto

@tchrist Thanks.

@Cerberus Is that OED too?

Oh, I see it is.

tchrist

@Cerberus I am also subthused by its treatment of quotationsallruntogether.

Cerberus

12:33 AM

Yes.

tchrist

It mimics the print version, I realize, but real estate is no longer of great concern.

Cerberus

@tchrist I know. Probably too much work to adjust the formatting from the printed version.

Yeah, that.

tchrist

The online OED now does it better.

Cerberus

I hate how electronic texts still use abbreviations!!

tchrist

Indeed.

Cerberus

12:34 AM

Only printed dictionaries ever had an excuse.

tchrist

Like for citations, ffs.

You have to click through to figure out what the real title is.

And there are so many weird abbrv8shnz.

They have lookup keys for all of these. They should therefore interpolate the lookup values.

One issue is that it is one to many, not one to one.

So you just gotta know.

Cerberus

I know.

Like "a.".

tchrist

That’s the one I was thinking of, yes. But there are many more.

Cerberus

"f."

tchrist

Look at citations 3 and 4 under alpha.

Who would know what those mean?

I mean, the abbreviations for the author and the work.

You know what?

I think that when the Forms section has Greek sets, I should put those in a list.

Robusto

12:42 AM

0

Q: Where did we get "buster" as in "Look here, buster"?

Americans, at least, have for some time used buster in speech or dialogue as a generic form of address. It has a range of tonalities, from light to affectionate to grimly confrontational. Listen, buster, you can't beat me no matter how hard you try! All right, buster, this time you're go...

idiom-meaning

If anyone can think of better tags, please feel free.

tchrist

slang etymology north-american-english secret-origins

Except it isn’t really slang.

It’s informal, perhaps.

And it is only use vocatively.

Which is curious.

Johan Larsson

never heard it, sounds like a dog

tchrist

heh

Robusto

Thanks.

tchrist

Listen here, Buster: I ain’t no dog.

It’s like Mack.

Robusto

12:46 AM

Or pal.

Johan Larsson

intentional lowercase in title buster?

tchrist

Yes, but you can use pal in other than vocative positions.

Robusto

It's hardly ever used in print. More of a speech thing.

In print, it's only ever seen in dialogue.

KitFox

You think Buster is only vocative?

tchrist

I do.

KitFox

12:48 AM

How do you figure?

tchrist

I can think of no example of it that is not vocative.

Johan Larsson

I knew Jimi was called Buster

KitFox

What about a union buster?

tchrist

That’s a different thing.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson OED cites are 2:1 for lowercase.

KitFox

12:49 AM

Oh is it?

tchrist

Sure.

KitFox

I thought they'd be related.

Like the way you'd use "pal".

Oh, but I see. Your comparison to Mack. So like a name.

tchrist

Yes.

And moreover, a name used only to address someone, not to refer to them.

KitFox

It took me ages to figure out "Lady Lubalot" because I read it with a short u.

tchrist

@KitFox I’d’ve doubled the b for that.

It’s just how I am: predictable.

KitFox

12:51 AM

I got there eventually, but I had to check what you were referring to.

Did you see the "had" guy?

tchrist

Unfortunately.

I delete-voted.

KitFox

Present perfect rampager? I don't understand what he's angling about.

tchrist

He was just going on and on and on and on.

KitFox

It's very strange. I've never seen a peeve like that before.

Robusto

I don't think the buster question is going to get many answers. sigh

tchrist

12:53 AM

@KitFox We are so inundated by spammers and trolls that we forget the other major internet pest: the crank.

KitFox

True dat.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto why is it important?

KitFox

I think BrE is the only English! Is probably our most common peeve.

tchrist

@Robusto I have a possible source to check, but have no copy. DARE.

KitFox

Anybody want to edit this answer down to comment size so I can convert it?

-1

A: TH sound, is it continuant or stop?

I can't comment guys. Need more points. Well, the Brazillian Portuguese phonetics are similar with the Spanish I think, I can understand the differences most clearly when I hear spanish speaking. In fact when we learn english on schools, we learn TH like D or F, Mother becomes MODER and think tur...

Robusto

12:55 AM

@JohanLarsson It's not as important as, say, world peace. But I heard it today and it struck me funny. So I'd like to know.

@tchrist TRUTH or DARE.

tchrist

@KitFox He thinks Matthew has both a stop and a fricative, alas. @Mahnax

@Robusto or CONSEQUENCES

I suppose it might come across as geminated, but surely not affricated!

Robusto

@tchrist Con sequences are rebuttal salvos (as distinguished from butt salves).

KitFox

@tchrist It hurt my eyes, but he seemed so sincere I thought I'd give it a chance at being a comment. Also, it's my last flag for the evening.

tchrist

Yes, I agree.

KitFox

Don't get ideas though.

Anyway, I'm off. Ping if you have felt merciful about it.

tchrist

12:58 AM

Ok.

KitFox

Oops. There I go with the 'had'/'have' ugh.

tchrist

I’ll try.

@Robusto Salva Regina

=~ s/re/va/

Robusto

@tchrist I'm leaving the obvious unstated with that one.

tchrist

Too late.

Robusto

Salve festa dies.

tchrist

1:00 AM

Why is that question BrE?

Robusto

Because it's pronounced with a lithp?

tchrist

I fink not.

Robusto

Vewy wew, then.

tchrist

0

Q: What are the common ways to say "die" ie pass away

I have heard of phrases like pass away, lose one's life, kick the bucket, depart this life, went to sleep, etc. before, but I am not sure which one to use in different situations. I think some of the phrases are inappropriate for a certain occasion. For example, saying "kick the bucket" at the ...

meaning word-choice etymology politeness

►

Robusto

Chat is going down! Help!

tchrist

1:08 AM

Sic transit

Robusto

1:33 AM

What we used to say when the CTA was broken: Sick Transit, Glorious Monday!

tchrist

It’s ALIVE!!!!

Cerberus

Is it??

Mirabile visu!

Robusto

And mirabile dictu as well, obviously.

skullpatrol

Yo, wazzup?

Cerberus

And lectu and auditu.

skullpatrol

1:44 AM

The weak and the strong are the Goldbach conjectures, the very weak and very strong ones are Silverbach conjectures and the other two being formulated by Bronzebach.

tchrist

2:07 AM

Your use of all caps is offensively loud, and the rest of this non-answer is nothing more than a peeve. — tchrist 29 secs ago

I suppose I should just edit his ALL CAPS MATERIAL into normal casing, but it still annoys me when people yell in a place that is intended to be for civil discourse.

skullpatrol

How can text be 'loud'? :D

new^ message

tchrist

He’s lame

skullpatrol

yep

tchrist

He thinks it’s normal and fine.

Probably a kid.

skullpatrol

he needs to learn...

notation, etc.

tchrist

2:14 AM

Look at the teenager-like picture in his profile.

skullpatrol

the rep is only 9

newbie

n00b

tchrist

Try this COCA link: corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=32178956

Does it pull up the query for you?

skullpatrol

yep

tchrist

Cool.

skullpatrol

Please log in or register, in order to do your own searches.

tchrist

2:19 AM

There is that. :)

But it should have shown you the results, right?

skullpatrol

no results for disproportional are shown :(

tchrist

You have to click on the link.

Where the word disproportional is.

Then it shows the results in context.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

This may be the strangest thing I've eaten this year:

I normally like those. Never had this one.

tchrist

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 I saw that one.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@tchrist It's not without its merits.

tchrist

2:23 AM

By the way, there are like 42 mentions of disporportionate for each mention of disproportional in COCA.

So the former is much more popular.

skullpatrol

@tchrist BINGO! it works when you click the word "DISPROPORTIONAL" :D not that I know what I'm looking at???

tchrist

But because some M-W dict is missing the word, this kid thinks it is sub-standard slangy aincha-goin-with stuff to be avoided.

I use kid reservèdly.

He’s messing up my lawn flamingos.

skullpatrol

he hasn't been taught what the word "proportion" means.

or even ratio

tchrist

Apparently not.

O that there were a purportion!

For what he purports is just that.

skullpatrol

I think the root is in the word "portion"

that's the way it is usually taught...

tchrist

2:30 AM

> portion from ME. porciun, portion, a. OFr. porcion, portion (12th c. in Hatz.-Darm.), ad. L. portiō-nem share, part, proportion (whence also Prov., Sp. porción, Ital. porzione, Pg. porção).

skullpatrol

purport sounds so, British

tchrist

Really?

Why?

It’s a regular English word.

skullpatrol

just my humble opinion :)

tchrist

It occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in COCA.

Perhaps it is simply not in your own personal active working vocabulary?

Actually, occurrences are in the 4 digits when you count inflections.

Pretends or alleges might be more common, feigns less.

skullpatrol

purport=meaning

tchrist

2:36 AM

But still. There is this locality illusion that is much like the recency illusion, where one imagines his own state of knowledge to be a global one.

skullpatrol

as a noun

tchrist

As a verb, it just means claims.

The first noun sense is:

> 1. That which is conveyed or expressed, esp. by a formal document; bearing, tenor, import, effect; meaning, substance, sense.

skullpatrol

5 mins ago, by tchrist

Perhaps it is simply not in your own personal active working vocabulary?

Agreed

tchrist

Hence the locality illusion, so you figure it must be British just because you don’t use it.

I assure you that I am not British.

skullpatrol

It sounds like it is used in logic alot...

tchrist

2:40 AM

You would know that more than I would.

Oh there is an obsolete noun sense with a cute citation.

> † b. Outward bearing. Obs. rare-1.

1590 Spenser F.Q. iii. i. 52 ― For shee her sexe under that straunge purport Did use to hide.

skullpatrol

The part of logic embedded in Philosophy

tchrist

That’s from Faerie Queen in case it isn’t obvious.

I wonder whether straunge rhymed with orange. :)

skullpatrol

:)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:54 AM

skullpatrol

:D

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 what does the _OT mean?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

it says "ALOT" but the meme generator covered it up

skullpatrol

so "LOGIC ALOT KNOWS "?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No. That's just on the original image.

I take it you're not familiar with the Alot

Required reading

skullpatrol

Thanks :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:06 AM

Then you can look back in the transcript and see why I posted that image ;p

well, i'm outta here. cya

skullpatrol

Later

Cerberus

4:09 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is correct. Bye!

medica

4:58 AM

@tchrist - thanks. I would laugh if it wasn't so pathetic!

Mahnax

@tchrist No clue, where'd you hear that?

I've never even heard Spanish in Edmonton. Granted, I don't live there.

medica

@tchrist (for the correction, that is!)

tchrist

@Mahnax I didn’t. I wondered what provoked you to check out Spanish.

medica

How does one make an indentation in an answer?

tchrist

5:13 AM

@medica Carefully.

You mean like I did with the Free Dictionary thingie?

medica

I ruined yours trying to copy it. :)

yes.

tchrist

You grab with your mouse an instance of U+00A0, NON-BREAKING SPACE, and just paste it as many times as you need. Here are eight of them between the quotes: " ".

Well, huh.

medica

:D

what happened?

tchrist

SO did some weird compression.

Dang it.

It’s converting them into spaces.

I may have to get wicked.

medica

lol (sorry) I think lots of things are weird when I try to make spaces in my answers.

tchrist

5:16 AM

I can fix yours, but I think chat is being naughty.

Meanwhile, take a gander at this one:

0

A: Are there any English one-word equivalents for "je ne sais quoi"?

I dare anyone to find an answer to this one. This is highly cultural and, like many other sayings, even the most evolved dictionaries cannot pinpoint the essence behind those word sequences. If you are keen on French idiosyncrasies, check the Larousse LEXIS, my bible when it comes to the French...

medica

ah. No, it's ok, I just wanted to learn. :)

I saw that.

tchrist

Oh, I see.

Well, I put them in.

medica

thank you!

tchrist

But you can use their HTML entity by name, which is  

medica

what an answer...

I have to learn more HTML...

tchrist

5:19 AM

However, that requires 6 characters to encode each one, whereas a real non-breaking space, which is character 160 or hex A0, is just one character long.

medica

I've learned a lot more than I ever knew since coming here.

programming know-how comes in handy.

tchrist

So I put eight of them there, as one character apiece. With the HTML entity (which is what those named character "escapes" are called), it would have been         

Which is ugly and tedious if you don’t just paste it a bunch like I just did.

But it won’t get lost in the shuffle so easily that way.

medica

thanks!

I've been trying to find more of Atressi con L'oriphanz online, but I can't.

tchrist

Oh.

I had trouble finding what I found.

skullpatrol

what is that?

medica

5:24 AM

I can see why!

tchrist

I should dig out The Key to the Name of the Rose and see what it has to say about this.

@skullpatrol A troubadour song from long ago and far away, in courtly languages that have fallen on hard times.

medica

@skullpatrol It's a really neat manuscript written in two Romance languages I'd not heard of.

skullpatrol

icic

tchrist

2 days ago, by tchrist

> Souvent, c’est l’absence d’articulation au niveau du genou qui est rappelée. Ainsi, le poète occitan Rigaut de Barbezieux se compare, dans sa célèbre chanson Atressi con l’orifanz, à l’éléphant qui chute et ne pourra se relever sans l’aide de ses proches, et dans la Priere Theophile, on dit de la Vierge, évoquant la même caractéristique, que jamais elle ne s’est pliée aux vanités du monde.

medica

They are so pretty.

tchrist

5:26 AM

2 days ago, by tchrist

It’s in the original Occitan/Provençal on the left, and a Catalan translation on the right.

medica

I might do better trying to search under the author, but I doubt it (I'll try, however.)

tchrist

The other troubadour language that was favored greatly was Galician.

medica

I wonder, is there a facsimile of it?

Or might it be published still?

tchrist

Basically, everything was in Provençal or Galician. The King of Castile, Alfonso X “The Wise”, didn’t write his famous Songs of Holy Mary and his Songs of the Friend in Castilian, but in Galician, because it was the language of the troubadours.

medica

wow, my connection just did something strange.

It sounds good!

tchrist

5:29 AM

Cantigas de Santa Maria

The Cantigas de Santa Maria ("Canticles of Holy Mary"; Portuguese: [kɐ̃ˈtiɣɐʒ ðɨ ˈsɐ̃tɐ mɐˈɾi.ɐ], Galician: [kanˈtiɣa̝s ðe̝ ˈsanta̝ maˈɾi.a̝]) are 420 poems with musical notation, written in the Galician variant of Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him. It is one of the largest collections of monophonic (solo) songs from the Middle Ages and is characterized by the mention of the Virgin Mary in every song, while every tenth song is a hymn. The Cantigas have survived in four manuscript codices: two at El Escorial, one at Madrid's National...

At the time, there was really no difference between Galician and Portuguese.

There is a bit of difference now.

But not much. Mostly orthographic.

medica

Wow. That looks so cool!

tchrist

My favorite recording of them is by the Early Music group, Ensemble Alcatraz, in their album Visions and Miracles.

medica

I used to collect illuminated manuscripts. They are very hard to read initially, largely because the writing can be so stylized that all one sees are strokes...

tchrist

We have so few records of early music that actually employ any sort of musical notation. This is one of the old ones.

medica

That sounds very nice; I will check that out.

tchrist

5:32 AM

I am 100% sure you will be delighted.

medica

There are antiphonals from before that...

I'm also sure I will.

tchrist

Yes, I know. But this is still old.

medica

yep.

tchrist

Oh, I see I called them Songs not Canticles. Oh well.

medica

I looked for my copy of The Name of the Rose the other (same difference) night, but found I must have given it away during the great library clean up. :-0

tchrist

5:34 AM

King Dinis of Portugal also wrote some famous Canticles.

Cantiga de amigo

The Cantiga de amigo (Portuguese: [kɐ̃ˈtiɣɐ ð(j) ɐˈmiɣu], Galician: [kaŋˈtiɣa ðe aˈmiɣo]) or Cantiga d'amigo (Old Galician-Portuguese spelling), literally a "song about a boyfriend", is a genre of medieval erotic lyric poetry, apparently rooted in a song tradition native to the northwest quadrant of the Iberian Peninsula. What mainly distinguishes the cantiga de amigo is its focus on a world of female-voiced communication. The earliest examples that survive are dated from roughly the 1220s, and nearly all 500 were composed before 1300. Cantigas d' amigo are found mainly in the Cancioneiro Colocci...

medica

cool!

Have you ever been to Florence?

tchrist

No, I have not.

Of the famous Italian cities, I have only been to Venice.

medica

Ah. I was going to ask you...

ooo!

What did you like most about Venice?

tchrist

That there were no cars. :)

Oh, many things, really.

medica

Isn't that grand?

tchrist

5:37 AM

Some of the artisanry is spectacular.

medica

I loved Murano, but I need to think of another island or two.

So beautiful.

skullpatrol

!!wiki Venice

Jarvis the Bot

Venice

Venice (English /ˈvɛnɪs/; Italian: Venezia [veˈnɛttsia] ( ) alternative obsolete form: Vinegia; Venetian: Venexia [veˈnɛsja]; Latin: Venetiae; Slovene: Benetke) is a city in northeastern Italy sited on a group of 118 small islands separated by canals and linked by bridges. It is located in the marshy Venetian Lagoon which stretches along the shoreline, between the mouths of the Po and the Piave Rivers. Venice is renowned for the beauty of its setting, its architecture and its artworks. The city in its entirety is listed as a World Heritage Site, along with its lagoon. Venice is the capital of the...

medica

It is really a beautiful city...

tchrist

It is.

medica

5:42 AM

I know glass. What other artisanry is it known for?

tchrist

Glass is the big on-going one. But the architecture is often striking, too.

> Venice, especially during the Middle Ages, Renaissance and Baroque, was a major centre of art and developed a unique style known as the Venetian School. In the Middle-Ages and the Renaissance, Venice, along with Florence and Rome, became one of the most important centres of art in Europe, and numerous wealthy Venetians became patrons of the arts.

> By the end of the 15th century, Venice had become the European capital of printing, being one of the first cities in Italy (after Subiaco and Rome) to have a printing press after those established in Germany, having 417 printers by 1500.

skullpatrol

Foreign words of Venetian origin
Words with a Venetian etymology include arsenal, ciao, ghetto, gondola, imbroglio, lagoon, lazaret, lido, Montenegro, quarantine, regatta. The name of Venezuela is a Spanish diminutive of Venice.

medica

I was stunned by Venice. I've been once. I never expected it to be so beautiful.

@skullpatrol imbroglio. I like that one!

tchrist

Se nota.

medica

Yes, I thought of books as well.

tchrist

5:45 AM

> Venice is famous for its ornate glass-work, known as Venetian glass. It is world-renowned for being colourful, elaborate, and skilfully made. Many of the important characteristics of these objects had been developed by the 13th century. Toward the end of that century, the center of the Venetian glass industry moved to Murano.

medica

fabric, but that's no fun unless you're rich...

skullpatrol

Venice, Los Angeles

Venice is a residential, commercial, and recreational beachfront neighborhood of the city of Los Angeles in the Westside region of Los Angeles County. Venice was founded in 1905 as a seaside resort town. It was an independent city until 1926, when it merged with Los Angeles. Today, Venice is known for its canals, beaches and circus-like Ocean Front Walk, a two-and-a-half-mile pedestrian-only promenade that features performers, fortune-tellers, artists, and vendors. == History == === 1800s === In in 1839 La Ballona that, included the southern parts of Venice, was granted by the Mexican government...

tchrist

Glass is to Venice as damascene work is to Toledo.

medica

It moved to Murano under duress. They were compelled by the rest of the islands because of the fires at the glassworks! :)

tchrist

I see.

medica

5:46 AM

Lace...

yes, they were sequestered onto Murano so that the rest of the islands would be safe.

tchrist

> Cities that are known for a rich history in Damascening where the technique is still practiced are Toledo, Spain; Eibar, Basque Country; and Kyoto, Japan.

Interesting combination.

medica

I'm going to Venice tomorrow (today)

it is an interesting distribution.

tchrist

Which Venice?

medica

Italy

tchrist

You’re going tomorrow??!?!??!!!!

Are you abroad right now?

medica

5:49 AM

My son and his (yes) (and Fiorenze)

No, I'm here in PA.

tchrist

Oh my.

medica

My plane leaves JFK at 5 pm

So if it goes down, you'll know why I left the site ;)

skullpatrol

:-O

medica

(No, I shouldn't joke)

tchrist

Too many planes in the news these days.

medica

5:50 AM

But so many air disasters... exactly

skullpatrol

@medica Have a safe flight.

medica

So my son and DIL are coming, and I feel a little bit of responsibility to show them something special, and thought they might be too young for glass...

@skullpatrol Thank you, skull! :)

Florence, I think I've got covered (all you have to do is walk, and you find treasures), but I feel uncertain about Venice.

Thought that since you spent a number of years in Europe, you might know (you certainly know more than me)

Hi @marantou!