English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

1:19 AM

@cerberus I have since discovered that the translation also appears in an older work too, and it's supposed to translate a longer passage.

The reason I'm mentioning this here is that this source is Classical and Foreign Quotations: Law Terms and Maxims, Proverbs, Mottoes, Phrases, and Expressions in French, German, Greek, Italian, Latin, Spanish, and Portuguese. With Translations, References, Explanatory Notes, and Indexes by William Francis Henry King, so @tchrist might take some interest in the resource.

Tonepoet

4:30 AM

"If a painter should wish to unite a horse's neck to a human head, and spread a variety of plumage over limbs (of different animals) taken from every (part of nature), so that what is a beautiful woman in the upper part terminates in an ugly fish below; could you, my friends, refrain from laughter, were you admitted such a sight."

Færd

12:12 PM

@terdon So asshole is softer than bitch? I was surprised to hear that.

Next thing I'm going to hear is that asshole is a term of endearment.

M.A.R.

de·bug dēˈbəɡ/ ..1.identify and remove errors from (computer hardware or software). — Mitch Apr 13 '15 at 16:51

@Mitch-fused, I am

Stop having a generic name, @Mitch

Actually the confusion about Seth a while ago in another chat was funny

Mitch

12:32 PM

@M.A.R. yeah, that's not me

Everybody's unique, except for me.

It goes without saying... well if I said it it wouldn't have gone without saying

@M.A.R. Seth is not me either, so it all evens out

M.A.R.

Mitch, France

4 5

( ‾ʖ̫‾)

Mitch

"We are all living in the gutter, but some of us are looking down into the sewer"

@M.A.R. pfft. France

M.A.R.

76 pages of Mitches on SO

Mitch

But nice hair

M.A.R.

Yeah, prolly works for L'Oreal

Mitch

12:37 PM

@M.A.R. that is strange. Mitch is not a particularly common name

M.A.R.

@Mitch Compare with 513 pages of Tim on SO

Mitch

How many pages of everybody on SO?

M.A.R.

Stupid prepositions

@Mitch How would I know? But there are some 10 million users

Mitch

There you go

Use math

How many per page?

M.A.R.

36

Mitch

12:40 PM

Then construct the generating function of the monodromy group, and from that compute the diagonal coefficients by the lid derivative of the motivic cohomology

Oh. Or you could divide by 36

M.A.R.

277,777.777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777 pages

Mitch

555

Have you seen the movie 'The Salesman' (English title)

M.A.R.

Oh, 524 pages of Tim now

@Mitch Nope, it's in my to-watch list

Mitch

Hm

M.A.R.

It won the Oscar though

Mitch

12:42 PM

Is Tim growing?

M.A.R.

1217 pages of John

@Mitch Not by the second. The 513 was from the last time I checked 'Tim'

'cause it's a meta.SE meme

Mitch

Wait...are there 10million programmers in the world?

M.A.R.

419 pages of Jack

@Mitch I don't know if there are 10 million humans in the world

330 Jim

523 James

212 Bill

Mitch

How about Manoj?

M.A.R.

903 Ben, which includes 'Benjamin'

@Mitch Teehee

@Mitch 87

98 Ajay

c.f. 1308 Kumar @Mitch

englishstudent

12:51 PM

@Mitch oh wow, I didn't know you were some hot french chick.

M.A.R.

274 Gupta

englishstudent

@Cerberus Can I use "how do you mean?" and "what do you mean?" interchangeably there?

@Tonepoet Which cartoon? Aladdin? Anastasia? Hmm don't remember.

Tonepoet

@englishstudent 'Tis The Little Mermaid.

englishstudent

Hm nice.

@Tonepoet Do you watch anime?

I'm not into them but I have watched some.

I'm more into English cartoons like Sinbad, Aladdin etc. They are fun to watch.

Mitch

@englishstudent Mitch doesn't seem like a French name, much less a French woman's name, even less a sexy French woman's name, even more less a sexy French woman who is on ELU

M.A.R.

12:58 PM

@englishstudent That's not anime

You should be able to tell that it's clearly Disney's design

@englishstudent Sure, who doesn't like Disney?

Tonepoet

@englishstudent As a matter of fact, yes I do. I occasionally chat in the Maid Cafe chatroom @ anime.se too.

englishstudent

@Mitch haha, that's funny. You are not a sexy French woman on ELU and I know that otherwise I would hit on you quite often, well, in a charming way, not in an annoying way. =)

Mitch

Hitting on is uncool

englishstudent

@Tonepoet Oh nice. What do you talk about in Maid Cafe by the way? I mean I can check out the transcripts but... oh it is about games basically.

Mitch

It makes things uncomfortable for everyone

Tonepoet

1:03 PM

@englishstudent Consider watching Puella Magi Madoka Magica.

englishstudent

@Mitch When you are friends then it is not. It is very cool.

Tonepoet

And give it a few episodes to build up if you do.

Mitch

Being friendly is totally ok. Hitting on, whatever you mean by that, may seem ok, and only slightly different for you, but for the recipient it can be very uncomfortable.

englishstudent

True. I know.

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. Given that Englishstudent's first guess was Aladdin, I think he realized that.

M.A.R.

1:06 PM

@Tonepoet Well, the question implied it being anime

englishstudent

@Tonepoet Yep. You are right on, Tonepoet.

@Tonepoet Is that a free website? Because I'd rather not pay anything to watch a cartoon. :)

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. Only very slightly. It stands to reason if somebody likes one form of animation that they might like another, and anime is becoming increasingly popular. I mean the world has dictionary status now...

englishstudent

@Tonepoet So I'm still learning to reason like you. I suck at debating a topic.

I mean in English. In my own language I rock.

skill patrol

In what sense does the world have dictionary status now?

M.A.R.

@skillpatrol They typo'ed. 'the word has dictionary status now'

Tonepoet

1:13 PM

@skillpatrol How many senses does the word have? @M.A.R. Oh! >_<

englishstudent

@Mitch We can also say "Hitting is uncool" without "on" there right? Or will that mean the other kind of "hitting"? Kind of confusing.

Tonepoet

@skillpatrol Every sense. =P

skill patrol

:-D

Tonepoet

@englishstudent Hit on is meant as a phrasal verb there, so no. The meaning changes.

englishstudent

oh okay. Thanks.

skill patrol

1:20 PM

I would say the world is heading towards encyclopedic status...

...whatever that means.

Mitch

The world contains multitudes

englishstudent

"I word"?

Mitch

The universe is just one thing however

I word talk like that all the time

Tonepoet

@skillpatrol I thought you did that on purpose! =P

englishstudent

@Mitch There are many universes, no? But, don't ask me for a proof.

Mitch

1:23 PM

@englishstudent I was being loose. If I were not a native speaker, it would be considered poor English.

englishstudent

oh I see.

Mitch

'Hitting on' means something different from 'hitting', right?

englishstudent

@Mitch But you wrote it correctly above.

Mitch

It'd feel better to say 'hitting on someone is not ok here'

Tonepoet

@englishstudent Actually, it's usually hitting on [somebody].

Mitch

1:25 PM

Jinx

But 'hitting is not ok' doesn't feel like it needs the object.

@Tonepoet Yes, that's the full version. I agree.

Tonepoet

@englishstudent And you've saved me! =P

englishstudent

:)

Yay! I saved someone in chat!

I edited that part.

That's okay. No need to remove the comments. :)

Mitch

(removed)

skill patrol

1:29 PM

remove (removed)

englishstudent

@Mitch Did you find anyone to practice Spanish, French etc. with?

@Mitch So if done between friends then it is not "hitting" right? "Flirting" maybe? Because you are right "hitting" is more like unsolicited romantic attention which doesn't sound good.

But aren't we all hypocrites one way or other? =)

Dunno.

Tonepoet

@englishstudent You might want to consider the concept of what some people call a "friend zone" and the notion that sometimes amorous attentions from your friends may even be less welcome than those from complete strangers.

englishstudent

1:45 PM

@Tonepoet Yes that's understandable, sometimes we don't want to ruin the friendships with sex. Totally agree.

Tonepoet

@englishstudent Also see: Unrequited love.

englishstudent

Yes that's one sided love. Totally sucks.

Cerberus

@englishstudent I would prefer how, because otherwise you have to objects of mean: what and the clause the follows. Two objects is not technically possible, so it would be an anacoluthon.

englishstudent

@Tonepoet But who are we kidding "friend zone" doesn't really exist I guess, I mean, yeah of course it exists but I hear people complain about being friend zoned so much that it doesn't seem like "friendship" to me. Something something "not friendship" maybe lel. Do you agree? Well feel free to disagree.

@Cerberus Ah. Thank you.

Like, look at the forums where people talk relationship problems. Many guys come and are like "Man, I totally dig that girl but she has me friend zoned. What do I do now?" Someone answers "Wait it out pal. Sucks to be in your position" something like that. =)

But I digress. lel.

skill patrol

that's street talk

Tonepoet

1:56 PM

@englishstudent I don't know.

englishstudent

@skillpatrol I wasn't being formal.

skill patrol

i know pal :-)

englishstudent

:-)

skill patrol

street talk is generally rhetorical

38 mins ago, by skill patrol

...whatever that means.

:-)

Mitch

2:27 PM

@englishstudent not yet. I've opened the italk web page and that's the only progress so far. It's mostly wondering about schedule.

@englishstudent it's fuzzy the boundary (which is annoying) between flirting and hitting on. But doing the old AOL, age/sex/location Ian's all that entails is weird and may make people uncomfortable

englishstudent

@Mitch Um, you wrote AOL which if I remember correctly is America's mass media company. What are you smoking Mitch and where can I buy some? =) Also what's "Ian"?

I hope you don't mind my humour. Apologies in advance if that's the case. :P

I'm familiar with ASL question that people ask. Yep, that's kind of creepy.

Urban dictionary says it all:

> ASL: What stupid people say on chats to learn who you are and where you live so they can come to your house with a chainsaw and kill you.

Mitch

2:45 PM

@Cerberus I'm no scholar of either, but it feels to me like so much is available so easily that I don't see how the writing/communication/education culture in Ancient Greece could come anywhere near what it is today. It just seems incredible to me. Did people have enough books back then it was it primarily speech?

Cerberus

@Mitch I think this is a little bit too vague for me to have an answer to.

Yes, there were books, and in Athens alone lived 400,000 people.

In Syracuse, 300,000.

Rome 1,000,000.

englishstudent

hi doggy.

Mitch

@Cerberus sure

Cerberus

There were book factories where slaves copied books in mass production. Labour was fairly cheap.

One person read the text out loud, while 100 people in the room write it down.

Or I don't know how many.

Mitch

@Cerberus to devaguify, what was the book industry like? How many books per capita?

Cerberus

2:49 PM

I don't know.

Mitch

(But also difficult to answer as something vague)

Cerberus

But any man of middle class had a library.

Mitch

Middle class?

Cerberus

Now the average middle-class person reads much less.

Less language of high quality.

englishstudent

So I'm guessing rich people had libraries instead of the internet like today right?

Mitch

2:50 PM

I'm not so sure of that

Cerberus

@englishstudent Middle class.

englishstudent

Middle class encompasses wealthy I'm guessing.

Ah okay.

Cerberus

They also spent hours every day carefully composing letters.

As in all of Europe until fairly recently.

Mitch

@Cerberus what was the % size of the middle class then?

Cerberus

I don't know, let's say 20%?

Mitch

2:54 PM

@Cerberus so they didn't actually have working jobs. I'd call that upper class

Cerberus

No, people had jobs just like always.

In all classes, also just like always.

Mitch

When would they have time to write letters if they were working (like modern middle class would be)?

Cerberus

If you work 8 hours, you have 8 hours left.

englishstudent

Yah I kind of agree with Mitch because I was thinking Lords etc. in the past like people who own lands and stuff.

Cerberus

And much correspondence was part of of work as well.

And they had off days like always.

Mitch

2:56 PM

Like it is today. Sending more email constantly

Cerberus

Except that now most people don't pay too much attention to style and composition in their e-mails.

englishstudent

Sending emails is very easy.

Cerberus

At any rate, Mitch's original position was not clear to me.

Mitch

I think this back and forth is clarifying

englishstudent

Well, that's Mitch, he is kidding around and joking half the time, I'm never sure myself.

=)

Anyway, I have to run, see you guys later.

Mitch

2:59 PM

@Cerberus that's arguable, or rather the source of ancient writing is very much selection biased and modern emails we're not doing the same selection for comparison

@englishstudent the problem is telling which half is which.

englishstudent

Very true.

haha

Cerberus

@Mitch Of course the selection is different, but it is clear that the average man who could write then considered style and composition far more important than now.

Egalitarianism came with advantages and disadvantages.

Mitch

I don't know the stats for real but I'm leaning towards thinking that 20% of the population back then was educated enough to do what you say.

Cerberus

Quite possibly.

And now, what percentage of the people still pay proper attention to style and composition?

Efficiency is the more popular maxim in all communication now, even in books.

Of course efficiency is good ceteris paribus, but...

Mitch

Or maybe that's where I'm wrong, that it doesn't take a large proportion of the population to maintain a written intellectual culture over centuries

@Cerberus I think there's less flowery wording nowadays.

Poetry in prose is not favored.

I'd say efficiency is one kind of style

Just as much thought goes into efficiency as a good metaphor

Cerberus

3:31 PM

@Mitch 20% is a large enough proportion.

Besides, you don't need an inordinately large number of people to "maintain a written intellectual culture over centuries".

Which you haven't defined.

But you suggest that by such a culture you mean one where people care about style and composition in their language.

A smallish city is enough for that.

Or consider Icelandic literature.

Icelandic literature

Icelandic literature refers to literature written in Iceland or by Icelandic people. It is best known for the sagas written in medieval times, starting in the 13th century. As Icelandic and Old Norse are almost the same, and because Icelandic works constitute most of Old Norse literature, Old Norse literature is often wrongly considered a subset of Icelandic literature. However, works by Norwegians are present in the standard reader Sýnisbók íslenzkra bókmennta til miðrar átjándu aldar, compiled by Sigurður Nordal on the grounds that the language was the same. == Early Icelandic literature == The...

Iceland is a town of middling size.

300,000 people now, but far fewer in centuries past.

The Roman Empire had 25 million inhabitants or so.

Greece had millions too.

Of course not everyone in Greek territories spoke Greek, but it was the lingua franca across the Near East and half of Europe for many centuries.

And we have the writings to prove that they cared a great deal about style and composition.

As do most cultures that produce literature.

Or all: perhaps that is part of the definition of literature.

Mitch

3:47 PM

@Cerberus good example with the eddas. Small population, very small expected intellectual free time. So I'm surprised they were able to produce it. But exists so something about my understanding needs to be fixed.

Matteo

4:07 PM

Hi

Cerberus

@Mitch You don't need millions of people to produce and keep alive the writing of literature.

You don't even need writing, in fact.

See the epics of Gilgamesh and Homer.

But perhaps that was not your original position.

Compare also Greek literature in the classical age.

There were many, many dialects.

Sometimes one island or paeninsula had its own spelling conventions.

And literary tradition.

Literature was written for centuries in at least 5 different great dialects around the Aegean.

Of course each dialect was not entirely static, but it nevertheless kept its own characteristics and conventions.

And Latin is a gigantic monolith of staticity and conventionality compared with Greek.

Most of the same conventions endured in educated writing from 100 BC until the 19th century.

And different sets of spelling rules or conventions were never more than marginal.

M.A.R.

5:10 PM

@Matteo Hi

Mitch

5:40 PM

Even now I'm regretting what I say, as I say it.

M.A.R.

in The Periodic Table, yesterday, by M.A.R.

How many of you have encountered a previous chat message of yours and suddenly have gone 'OH SHIT HAVE I REALLY SAID THAT'?

Mitch

Exactly

Or rather, I was kidding

Færd

6:24 PM

ODO says that memorial in memorial service is a modifying noun, not an adjective. M-W says that it can be an adjective.

I think it comes down to how the combination is pronounced: if it's meMOrial SERvice, then it's an adj+noun combination, while if it's meMOrial serviece, then it's a noun+noun one.

So, how do you pronounce it? With two stresses or one?

sumelic

@Færd I pronounce it with more stress on "memorial," but I'm not sure that's indicative of the structure. "Blackbird" also has this pattern, and it's originally an adjective + noun compound.

Færd

Right, but that's practically one word, isn't it?

sumelic

Yeah, "blackbird" is a fossilized compound. I agree in any case that "memorial" in "memorial service" isn't gradable or predicable (*"a very memorial service", *"the service was memorial"), so it doesn't act like an independent adjective word.

Færd

Hmm. So you think it's not an adjective but not because of the stress pattern.

sumelic

But it seems to me it could be historically derived from an adjective.

Færd

6:31 PM

Yes, maybe.

Anyway, I'm not concerned with deciding on the label right now.

For the most part, I wanted to know how it's pronounced.

Thanks.

sumelic

I see. Well, I agree about the stress pattern. Sometimes compound words have stress patterns that don't make sense based on the historical composition of their parts. Like "Empire State Building," which I and many other people pronounce as if it were an "Empire" type "State Building."

Færd

You mean like EMpire STATE building?

sumelic

@Færd Yeah, with stronger stress on "State" than on "Em."

Færd

I would never know that if I weren't told!

sumelic

@Færd It's weird. There's a Grammarphobia post about it: grammarphobia.com/blog/2013/11/empire-state-building.html

Færd

6:36 PM

I'll have a look. Thanks.

Færd