English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Martin AJ

1:09 AM

I want to say: "this isn't the database design that you have recommended ". Which one is correct?

- this isn't your recommended database design.
- this isn't your database design recommended.

tchrist

1:21 AM

The first.

Tonepoet

@MartinAJ The first option is the better one. Adjectives and noun adjuncts usually appear in a particular order before the main noun, which in this case is design. Recommended is an observation or opinion so it would go before most other types of adjectives.

tchrist

Actually, it's more than that.

The second is ruled out because of the possessive determiner rather than the definite article.

"This isn't the database design recommended" is ok because of whiz-deletion from "This isn't the database design [that was] recommended".

You cannot do that with your: "This isn't your database design [BARRED CONTENT] recommended."

Because you cannot insert the deleted/tacitly-understood whiz and have it remain a well-formed sentence.

@Tonepoet Does that make sense?

Tonepoet

Whiz-deletion is a subject that confuses me overall.

tchrist

25

A: What is a noun modifying clause?

The term you probably want in this case is Relative Clause. There are other kinds of adjective clauses (i.e, noun-modifying clauses), but relatives are by far the most common and the most complex. In particular, relative clauses, like many subordinate clauses, are subject to a variety of deletion...

> The rule called Whiz-Deletion by linguists (from the fact that it deletes a Wh-word plus a form of be, quite often is; a monosyllabic variant of "Wh-is deletion"), when applied to a relative clause, creates a bare verb phrase without a tensed verb, but with whatever is left after the deletion.

Tonepoet

I've seen it discussed on the website before.

tchrist

1:30 AM

So you have to be able to plug something into the [BARRED CONTENT] which is a Wh-word followed by some form of the verb be.

And you cannot come up with a valid substitution that does that when his sentence has a your there not a the. I don't know why. Ask Lawler.

I just know that the second proposed version is not grammatical in my language.

We like to use this for heavy, right-branching modifiers like participle phrases.

Tonepoet

@tchrist You really, really respect John Lawler. Maybe even as much as I respect Noah Webster. I noticed that you recently deleted one of Hotlicks' answers which surprised me considering that Hotlicks is one of the more reputed users. I assumed the status quo would've been maintained regarding comment answers based on your answer to question #6 from the mod questionnaire, but it actually seems that Berry England and John Lawler are in a league of their own.

tchrist

I don’t recall having done so, but it is possible.

Are you confusing comments with answers?

Tonepoet

I mean comment-answer as in when people enter comments when they should have been written as answers. I am not in disagreement with your interpretation and enforcement of policy; I'm just saying it's contrary to what I expected of you.

tchrist

I’m sorry I’ve failed to live down to your expectations.

Tonepoet

1:51 AM

@tchrist I'm not complaining myself. I'm just curious as to what your constituency might be thinking.

Also oh, my memory is hazy, it's RegDwight you mention and not Berry England

tchrist

Mr England is no fruit.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Why would I care if he's homosexual or not?

0celo7

wtf is going on here

tchrist

I
beg
your
pardon
?
!

Barrie England, United Kingdom

118k 8 169 293

@Tonepoet You’re apt to be flagged for gratuitously offensive language in chat with that sort of thing.

0celo7

That's not offensive

Tonepoet

2:03 AM

@tchrist I'm suggesting that you need to choose your words more carefully tchrist. I don't even know why you selected the word "fruit".

tchrist

Her gay comment might come off that way.

@Tonepoet Because that’s what you wrote.

11 mins ago, by Tonepoet

Also oh, my memory is hazy, it's RegDwight you mention and not Berry England

I chose my words carefully. I suggest you more carefully observe them.

Tonepoet

Oh, I mispelled berrie.

tchrist

@Tonepoet No, you misspelled Barrie.

Tonepoet

Okay, so I did that twice. Regardless the "[noun]'s no fruit" wording for that is very unfortunate from an idiomatic perspective.

tchrist

Would you prefer that I had said he’s no drupe? Most things people call berries are not drupes.

Tonepoet

2:18 AM

Hmm, I don't know what I would prefer to be honest. I think perhaps "[noun] is not a fruit" might be less commonly used to express the sentiment, but I don't think it's exempt from that interpretation.

tchrist

Tonepoet

2:30 AM

@tchrist The only thing I can think of regarding wooshes right now is that your jokes are flying over my head. I had better call it quits for now.

tchrist

@Tonepoet That's correct!

Tonepoet

Alright then! We're in agreement about something. I'll probably see you tomorrow. =P Farewell.

Færd

3:29 AM

Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening by Robert Frost.

The trend of the sounds is amazing: from heavy, soft, hesitant sounds to abrupt, forceful, stirring ones. You can just compare the end rhymes.

tchrist

It is nice.

> When she opened the door to the garden, it was so lovely that she held her breath, unwilling to disturb such perfect beauty. The snow drifted down and down, all in ghostly silence, and lay thick and unbroken on the ground. All color had fled the world outside. It was a place of whites and blacks and greys.
White towers and white snow and white statues, black shadows and black trees, the dark grey sky above. A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here. Yet she stepped out all the same. Her boots tore ankle-deep holes into the smooth white surface of the snow, yet made no sound. Sansa…

Can you see the poem’s fingerprints hidden in the prose?

Færd

@tchrist The notion of the promises to keep is absent, but yes.

tchrist

Even down to frosted bits.

Færd

Yeah, I noticed that.

tchrist

Trees dark and snow deep.

Færd

3:44 AM

Google tells me it's by a George R.R. Martin. I don't know him.

Meaning I haven't had a detailed experience with his work.

tchrist

Well.

There is lame, plodding, repetitive language, with a few gems here and there. But mostly it isn't done yet.

And the last two books seemed like serial installment, not novels.

Færd

I see.

tchrist

I’ll skip you to the very, very last passage of the first book, which is a well-respected bit of prose:

> As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons.

He's sprinkled other bits of the poem in other places.

> “And if I had slain her?” asked Jon.

“She would be dead, and I would know you better than I had before. But enough talk. You ought be sleeping. We have leagues to go, and dangers to face. You will need your strength.”

Færd

Did you gave away the ending? ;)

tchrist

Well.

Most people have seen, or at least heard of, bits from the HBO TV series they’ve made of it. It’s famous for the dragons.

Færd

3:53 AM

The literary value is lost in some of these visual representations.

It matters to me.

Did you like The Lord of the Rings, the film trilogy?

"Did you gave away" -- cringes

Why do I still make such mistakes?

tchrist

4:22 AM

I watched it.

The first was the best of the tree. All had good moments and bad.

They don't much represent the tale, but they tried very hard.

Rakesh Patidar

6:34 AM

hello

Eugene

Hello.

Guys, what are the usual variations of response to a part in a letter "Best Regards"? Thank you.

Matt E. Эллен

10:55 AM

@Eugene people don't usually respond to "best regards"

terdon

Is that even used? Regards, yes; Best, or All the best yes, but best regards?

Matt E. Эллен

yes

I use it

I think

oh

I use kind regards

but I see people use best regards

terdon

It seems strange to use the superlative for regards, for some reason.

And yet, best wishes seems fine. Whatever.

Mitch

11:30 AM

What are regards?

Small trinkets?

Dead midges on tour windowsill after a hot night.

Matt E. Эллен

so... poetic?

Mitch

11:54 AM

You mean that's all poetry is? Laundry lists badly misspelled, taken as profundity?

Matt E. Эллен

so... post modern?

so... hesitantly questioning?

Johan Larsson

12:24 PM

Have an analyzer

Roslyn is really nice, tweak the type system per library if needed.

Kit Z. Fox

12:36 PM

I was all excited to get my hair cut today, then my husband reminded me that she's bringing her pit bull in to work.

Shit. Now I don't want to go.

Lawrence

@KitZ.Fox A hairdresser with a pit bull? That doesn't sound very customer-friendly.

Kit Z. Fox

I don't even know what to say to her. I don't know what she's thinking.

Lawrence

now sit vewy vewy stiww

Kit Z. Fox

She told my husband she was bringing the dog with her because she's a new rescue and very nervous about being left alone.

So basically, the dog is pretty likely to freak out and bite someone.

So she's taking it to work with her.

Lawrence

@KitZ.Fox You might want to let her know about some others who are likely to be very nervous.

Kit Z. Fox

12:42 PM

How can a person not know that?

About a pit bull?

Lawrence

Well, apparently she adores the little tyke.

Let's hope it has its own playpen, at least.

I wouldn't be keen to be trapped in a chair with something sharp at one end and scissors at the other.

@KitZ.Fox Did you confirm your appointment, knowing she's bringing a pit bull to work?

Kit Z. Fox

I don't know. Maybe she won't bring it today.

Lawrence

:)

Kit Z. Fox

She didn't say so when I made the appointment.

But seriously, my nerves can't handle it.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox Besides, pit bulls are known to have a poor sense of style.

Kit Z. Fox

12:56 PM

OMG, I know these people! This was re-posted by George Takei today:

facebook.com/LADbible/videos/2902916146422223

That's Maine's famous I-95 truck stop, Dysart's.

Mitch

Classic comment:"I lost my watch at a party once. An hour later I saw some guy stepping on it while he was sexually harassing some woman at that party. Infuriated, I immediately went over, punched him and broke his nose. No one does that to a woman, not on my watch."

Kit Z. Fox

haha

terdon

1:34 PM

@KitZ.Fox Huh? Why would you think that? A dog who's new to a household is nervous because it hasn't figured out its place in the pack yet. That doesn't imply it's likely to bite anyone, only that the owner doesn't want to leave the poor thing alone.

Kit Z. Fox

It's a rescued pit bull. A nervous rescued pit bull.

terdon

You can always ask her to tie the poor mut up while you're there if you're afraid of dogs.

@KitZ.Fox Yeah, probably abused, terrified of people and very confused.

Kit Z. Fox

I'm not afraid of dogs. I'm understandably concerned about how a rescued dog will feel about having a new person in its territory.

And I don't like the expectation that I will be part of its socialization.

But maybe she won't bring it. Maybe it won't be there. Maybe that's why she didn't mention it.

terdon

I don't see why you'd expect to have to socialize with it. It will probably be safely tied up or in a room somewhere, not gallivanting around, meeting customers.

Kit Z. Fox

Um, no. That's my point.

It's not tied up anywhere, just loose in the shop.

And apparently barking loudly and growling at men who try to come in.

terdon

1:43 PM

Ah. OK, that last one's not cool.

Kit Z. Fox

Well, she says, but it should be fine for kids and women. It's just big men used to beat it, so it's still getting used to having men around.

Awesome.

That's reassuring.

Considering it could kill my boys with a single bite.

But again, maybe she didn't say anything because the dog's not going to be there. I'm not bringing the kids with me anyway.

ktm5124

6:19 PM

What would you call a series of terms like this: "The city begins at the river, extends northward to the mountains, and goes as far east as the lake"? I know you could call it a list or a series, but what would be the most precise way of describing this construction?

Kit Z. Fox

What sense are you trying to capture?

It's a parallel structure, in the sense that the series is split on the verbs and the verbs match tense.

ktm5124

Context: I'm trying to ask a question about constructions like these on Latin.SE, but before I ask the question I'd like to know the name of the construction, so I can refer to it properly.

The question I would like to ask is, is the coordinating conjunction necessary in <name for construction here>.

Kit Z. Fox

shrugs I don't know of one that is more specific than series or list.

ktm5124

I think that calling this kind of sentence a "series" or a "list" is a little vague.

Maybe "parallel series" is descriptive enough.

Kit Z. Fox

Concatenated series?

I really don't know.

Cerberus

6:46 PM

@ktm5124 An enumeration of clauses?

ktm5124

@Cerberus Can you call it an enumeration if the clauses aren't numbered?

Cerberus

Yes, by all means.

ktm5124

Oh, interesting.

I think I was able to describe it well enough. I posted the question and I'm really happy about it. latin.stackexchange.com/questions/1620/…

Cerberus

Good.

ktm5124

Although technically speaking, would "extends northward to the mountains" be a clause? It has a predicate, but the subject is implied and carried over from the previous clause.,

@KitZ.Fox I committed to Literature.SE. I'm really excited! Was this your proposal?

Kit Z. Fox

6:53 PM

No, no, not mine.

The user who proposed it is listed in the same panel as the commit percentage.

Hamlet, United States

7.5k 5 16

arts technology discussion life site-definition

There are quite a few high rep users from a variety of sites that have committed. I think that's pretty exciting.

Cerberus

@ktm5124 Yes: it is an elliptic clause.

ktm5124

@Cerberus Oh, that makes sense, thinking about the meaning of "elliptic" in terms of its Greek root: ἐλλείπω = omit.

Thanks.

@KitZ.Fox That's kind of foreboding, seeing how Hamlet's propositions didn't often pan out.

It also deserves a user by the name of Claudius... gets an idea to create a new account

Cerberus

7:09 PM

Exactly!

ktm5124

Reminds me of how I was thinking about osteoporosis yesterday and its Latin roots... ossum + porosus. The best technical terms have Greek or Latin origin. (And the ones that don't should just be cast into the fire.)

Færd

7:37 PM

I have never watched a beauty contest. Do they really decide who's the most beautiful?

Based on WHAT?!

I don't even want to know the answer.

Rubisco

8:03 PM

@Færd They find out which one makes robots love.

Færd

Or they can measure how much the average judge is aroused by each contestant.

Rubisco

In centimeters, or feet?

Færd

In centimeters I mean. That would be a more accurate and less ridiculous way than it is now I bet.

Or feet, as fit.

Rubisco

You can't blame 'em. They're people. People always want rankings.

Rankings make a few people proud.

Make some strive towards them.

Make some depressed as they can't keep up with the race.

That's how the jungle works.

Færd

That's a disguised blaming you know.

Rubisco

8:08 PM

Well, it's kinda in their nature.

Færd

Then it's in my nature to blame them.

Rubisco

I usually only blame people that do things with a will.

Færd

The will is part of our nature too. The blamers and the blamee and whoever else.

Rubisco

Well, a lot of things don't make sense. Be it there, or here.

Færd

There is a will. And sometimes you realize that there is a will after you've been scolded or criticized.

Anyway,

Rubisco

8:11 PM

For instance, I haven't really figured out this Moharram "sadness parades" on the streets.

I praise people who're sad when they feel they should be.

Go to a mosque, be sad, don't frigging move.

Don't frigging bother people at two a.m.

But streets? Why is chaos a way to mourn?

Færd

I can't say I sympathize with them.

You just reminded me that I'm about to go through all that in a few days.

Rubisco

I think your generation kinda opposes our way of thought.

Most of you guys feel burdened to go to streets.

But you're not the problem, people from my generation are.

They're the ones making the noises.

They're the ones that destroy shiism's image around the world.

Færd

Well.

I don't go to the streets. Maybe there is a good way of doing that.

Especially when most people in a town or city want to do that, they can organize it in a good way.

Rubisco

The best men among us mourn in their beds, restless.

The street parades are merely a result of generations of deviating from the code he stood for, into an excuse of a show-off.

Færd

You can interpret any manifestation as a show-off. Just because you may be more intelligent than to share their probably simpler point of view doesn't mean you're right in your judgement.

Rubisco

8:21 PM

@Færd I do not say some people do not see merit in these, or persuade themselves to see merit.

And I do not speak for the intentions of all people there. I'm not that kind of a man.

But you need to stand aside, and see what it has become, from a sympathetic point of view, but one that has not been clouded.

The truth is, all the sincere tears that are shed are shed better in a holier place, and whatever remains is a tool in Wahhabi hands.

I try not to speak from the illogical westernized viewpoint of the younglings these days, that seems to have departed from religion, just like the way the world is going.

I just can't find a reason to endorse any of the parade.

Not the screams, not the blood, not the drum. Especially not the drum.

Alright, just going to sleep.

mafu

Hello, sorry to interrupt. I have a question about using quotation marks in American English. I use double marks for citations that are either long or literal, and single marks for short citations (at most three words) or paraphrased words (that kind of 'stuff'). It seems my described usage is unknown to mankind -- is that true?

Færd

@Rubisco I myself don't partake in those rituals that make so much sound that I'm afraid may trouble some people.

When a considerable proportion of the people in a city want to do something, you cannot expect it to remain confided behind the doors.

If you can guide them toward their improvement, do. There are some who defeat their purpose by whatever they do.

But if you condemn them altogether without proposing another practical way, that might mean depriving them of what little connection they already have or feel with the matter.

@Rubisco That's not true.

(And by confided I meant confined)

Tonepoet

9:20 PM

@mafu The typical convention is to always use double quotation marks in preference to single quotation marks, except for quotations nestled within quotations. Example: Person A said "Person B reported 'All is well in the neighborhood.' when he visited yesterday."

Helmar

How to proceed with these migration stubs?

english.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/microsoft-word

Especially the 2013 one

It auto-links to writers

2

Q: Software to change American punctuation to British

My apologies if this is off topic. American and British writing have different punctuation styles. Is there any software that can change American style punctuation to British? I am referring to punctuation, not spelling. A simple example would be changing the American styled "Hello," he sai...

punctuation

Only there it doesn't have the microsoft-word

user227867

Hi @Tonepoet I decided to return to SE after all.

user227867

@KitZ.Fox If you really cannot stand the dog, you could consider changing the hairdresser. I visit over 9000 different ones each year.

Mitch

@Rubisco I blame the British

Tonepoet

@WillHunting Hi Jasper.

user227867

9:30 PM

@Tonepoet I contacted Oxford Dictionaries again, this time through the Contact Us button at the bottom of oxforddictionaries.com. I requested them to include full pronunciation for ODE and to reprint the current edition of OID.

Tonepoet

@WillHunting We'll see what happens but I suspect if it's only one customer making the request, the advice probably won't be heeded, esp. since the market for printed dictionaries seems to be dying...

user227867

@Tonepoet Well, if it were dying, the OID would not be sold for thousands of dollars! =)

user227867

@Tonepoet What I suspect though is that Oxford fell out with Paravia in the case of OID...

user227867

@Mitch It seems Rubisco is Robusto, sound very similar.

Tonepoet

@WillHunting That only suggests that there are a select few people desire it enough to warrant that price. A new book manufacturer is going to typically prefer to selling many copies cheaply.

user227867

9:37 PM

@Tonepoet I dislike everything becoming increasingly digital. The world is getting worse and worse.

Tonepoet

Also, I wouldn't take high ebay prices as indicative of actual value, until the products sell.

user227867

@Tonepoet In my message to Oxford, I mentioned 'greedy sellers' =)

Tonepoet

We'll see what happens then, eh?

user227867

@Tonepoet Collins did not thank me for my feedback regarding their dictionaries. =) They must be shocked to find someone so perceptive.

Tonepoet

Either that or they don't respond to every email.

user227867

9:40 PM

Or maybe they are still thinking of what to say.

user227867

What I think though is that although book writers are competent, book publishers are incompetent.

Tonepoet

@WillHunting I don't mind it so much, except for two things. One is that first sale doctrine relies upon the existence of physical media. The other is that it is too easy to delete or edit digital content without leaving behind even a trace of its original existence.

We're looking at the second burning of the Great Library of Alexandria here whenever some great disaster befalls the internet.

user227867

I haven't watched Batman 1989. I suspect it is the best Batman movie.

Tonepoet

Tell me what you think of it when you do.

user227867

@Tonepoet Are you good in math, in general?

Tonepoet

9:53 PM

@WillHunting I am not. I hate division and I am glad we have computers everywhere. >_>

Lawrence

@KitZ.Fox How did it go?

Tonepoet

Well, it's not that I "hate" it so much as I am frustrated by the fact that I can scarcely remember how to do it.

user227867

@Tonepoet Is it possible to buy a new copy of the 1828 dictionary now?

Tonepoet

@WillHunting Yes it is.

user227867

@Tonepoet Where? How? =)

Tonepoet

9:56 PM

amazon.com/American-Dictionary-English-Language-Facsimile/dp/…

user227867

Brilliant!

Tonepoet

It's a shame that nobody sells the 1844 or 1841 editions.

user227867

Well, Merriam sells the 1961 edition. =)

Tonepoet

The only thing that has to do with Noah Webster's dictionary at this point is the name. Allegedly, many of the knockoff Webster's dictionaries are closer to Noah Webster's, because they often directly derive their definitions from his (since it's a public domain work).

user227867

I saw the 2003 MW Collegiate edition. The inside looks nicely printed.

user227867

10:02 PM

It has about the same number of definitions as the Concise OED.

user227867

The UN uses the Concise OED for its official documents.

Tonepoet

I'm surprised they don't use the full O.E.D.

user227867

Can you imagine someone from the UN trying to find the pronunciation of a word in the Concise OED but can't because the pronunciation is not given?

Tonepoet