English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

user227867

12:09 AM

I just watched a beautiful Spanish movie: Por un punado de besos

user227867

imdb.com/title/tt3028412

user227867

Ah, my avatar is not showing up in chat and on site, bad code, SE, bad code.

tchrist

12:44 AM

@WillHunting There's no such word as punado.

Diacritics are not optional in Spanish. If you use the wring one or loave one off, it is a spelling errer as bad as swapping out a lettrine.

puñado

Noun: puñado m ‎(plural puñados)

a handful
a lot

But there is no such word as punado, only puñado and puñada plus their plurals.

puñar

Verb: puñar ‎(first-person singular present puño, first-person singular preterite puñé, past participle puñado)

(archaic) to fight, attack

Think pugnacious; think repugnant. See how important that tilde is now? It here means there used to be a G there.

Without that, you can't tell how to say the word or what it means, where it comes from.

user227867

1:19 AM

@tchrist I see. I was lazy. =)

Mitch

1:48 AM

@WillHunting Oh. I thought you'd enjoy putting your new book to use.

@tchrist en bon poing

Mitch

2:03 AM

a new egg-corn: coat-switch

i love white people https://t.co/epcj0bW70p

Tweeted by ira on October 27, 2016 at 9:11 PM

Færd

2:15 AM

> Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

> By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

> These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.

(from the KJV)

I realize this is an obsolete use of after, maybe meaning something like according to, but I can't really understand its exact meaning.

The last verse quoted is thus translated in the NIV, one of the modern translations:

> These are the sons of Shem by their clans and languages, in their territories and nations.

Mitch

2:43 AM

@Færd yes, just replace with 'according to'. Frankly 'according to' also sounds a little archaic. 'by their kind' sounds more modernly idiomatic to me, but I've nver actually heard that.

Færd

@Mitch But often there's no point of reference to accord with; like, in the last one there's no mention of the sons of Shem's tongues in that chapter.

Færd

3:40 AM

Nor is it hinted that they're listed or categorized based on their tongues.

user227867

4:31 AM

@Mitch I do, but not for manual work, lol.

user227867

@Færd This is not bible chat, but I thought I would let you know that I think the NRSV is the most scholarly translation and not the KJV. It's what the biblical scholars recommend.

Færd

4:44 AM

@WillHunting It's the literature I'm interested in.

suməlic

@Færd I would guess that the names listed in the passage are related to names of ethnic groups and languages that would have been familiar to the audience at the time.

For example, "Aram" was an ancient nation in the Middle East; we call the associated people "Aramaeans" and the associated language "Aramaic."

"Elam" was also a nation, associated with the Elamite people and language.

user227867

@Færd Ah OK. I am not a fan of bible writing. Shakespeare is better, lol.

Færd

5:42 AM

@suməlic I see. Thank you.

@WillHunting Hmm. I would think he is.

Tonepoet

6:32 AM

@WillHunting @Færd Shakespeare used the Geneva Bible, which makes since because despite being a contemporary of the 1611 King James Version, he died shortly after that in 1616.

user227867

7:57 AM

@Tonepoet I am very, very happy with my AHD. It is very, very good.

user227867

It is raining heavily here in Antarctica. I am waiting for the rain to stop before going out. I think I will have a huge dinner on my own tonight, since there is no Maria to join me this Friday evening.

Tonepoet

@WillHunting You may even like the American Heritage Dictionary more than I do, given that it's one of my lower priority sources.

user227867

@Tonepoet What is your higher priority resources?

user227867

It must be the 1828 Noah Webster Dictionary...

Tonepoet

@WillHunting I think you already know the ones I usually use are the older dictionaries. The C.D.C., some of Merriam-Webster's older works and their progenitor work The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language. Do note that if Merriam-Webster used the same degree of scrutiny that they had used for their Second New International Dictionary, WIlliam Morris might not have ever bothered to create the A.H.D.

RegDwigнt

10:40 AM

@Robusto I don't think I've ever heard that before. Like, not once.

Poles are generally not liked too much, but it's that "they take away our jobs" kind of thing, which if you think about it is sort of the exact opposite of being crap at jobs, innit.

There's a couple idioms, sayings and rhymes involving Poland or the Poles, but I've not come across this particular one.

Oh and yeah. All Poles are thieves. Especially when it comes to cars.

Kaum gestohlen, schon in Polen.

tchrist

11:03 AM

Haha

Mitch

1:01 PM

@WillHunting haha..whut? What else do you do with your new tome? Press flowers?

user227867

1:27 PM

@Mitch I lift it to train my biceps and triceps.

user227867

I just had a huge dinner at an Italian restaurant. I also made a new pair of spectacles. My short-sightedness has gone down, it seems.

user227867

4:00 PM

I just watched this French movie where almost every character is sick in some sexual way.

user227867

Elle (film)

Elle (French for "she" or "her") is a 2016 French-German-Belgian psychological thriller directed by Paul Verhoeven and written by David Birke, based on the novel Oh... by Philippe Djian, and starring Isabelle Huppert. The film tells the story of a businesswoman, Michèle (Huppert), who is raped in her home by an unknown assailant and stalks him back. It is Verhoeven's first feature film in ten years after his 2006 film Black Book, and his first in French language. The film premiered in competition for the Palme d'Or at the 2016 Cannes Film Festival where it received critical acclaim. Elle wa...

Mitch

4:10 PM

@WillHunting In IMDB of that movie, the cat in the poster is uncredited. That's not sick, that's unfair.

Færd

6:15 PM

A few nights ago a ranger in the wooded hills where I roam around told me they have spotted "four or five" wolves, but they weren't able to catch them. I was advised not to wander around there at night.

I did some research on wolf attacks. One of the useful instructions I haven't find in the guides I've seen online is how to take precaution by wrapping and tying your coat or sweatshirt or whatever around your neck before the wolves are in attacking distance from you.

And some of them are unrealistic in some ways, like this one that practically assumes you're gonna deal with one wolf, which is rare I think, unless the animal is rabid or something.

And many of them go "don't turn your back on them" or "back away slowly", neglecting the clever way they close you off on all sides and jump around you and confuse you.

But of course, members of the same family don't all have the same behavior around the world.

tchrist

8:19 PM

@suməlic I begin to despair of ever understanding English phonology, or at least, its notation.

I now fear there be no I in my cake.

Or my race.

Maybe we should just go back to faking it.

I thought about this because of English says and chase and Spanish seis.

I know these are different languages, but that /ei/ diphthong in Spanish seis is perfect clear to the ear, and there are many minimal pairs where /e/ and /ei/ differ, so I’m 100% certain I can hear the difference. And yet I can’t hear how English chase has the same diphthong, but the dictionaries say it does.

There's a hell of a lot less /i/ there.

MetaEd

8:34 PM

@tchrist About the same when I say them. Which just surprised me.

tchrist

That may mean you are not putting much /i/ in seis.

But Texans are excused.

When I first learning the language, I had to work to get vieira ("scallop" in Spanish or Portuguese or Galician) to come out right. I would keep saying it viera instead.

The /ei/ in seis is an mmm "longer" vowel.

It’s still a diphthong, not two vowels in hiatus, but it takes longer to say.

I do admin there’s more /j/ in reyes than in rey, but that’s just because you’re going somewhere with it.

Oh wait, I know why!!!

Spanish only has tense/close vowels.

So in the English word ray, the diphthong is /eɪ/, but in the Spanish word rey, the diphthong is /ei/. The Spanish diphthong finishes more with the vowel of beat, while the English one finishes (maybe?) with that of bit, and beat takes longer to say than bit.

Because neither language has a minimal pair between /eɪ/ and /ei/, what actually happens there at the end doesn’t matter the one from the other.

So while Spanish has loads of minimal pairs between /e/ and /ei/, I’m trying to find an English minimal pair between /e/ and /eɪ/, but I don't know that one can even exist.

I do know that I don’t have /eɪ/ before phonemic /r/ in English.

So ferry isn’t like a fay plus re. But it does explain the trisyllabic Faërie.

Hm really?

Can't see how this isn't him.

Ahah.

From Lawler here.

Although perhaps that's just Kenyon and Knott.

I still think that for me lair more has the vowel of late than it does of led.

But maybe it is more lax than in lay. Hm.

> ænd tu ltl ktnz

awwww

tchrist

9:07 PM

If you can spec something, shouldn't its -ing be specking? Why do people thing doubling a c makes it a k? See picnicking.

suməlic

@tchrist that's right; from what I understand, "reyes" usually is transcribed as underlyingly having the consonant /ʝ/, which is a "stronger" sound than the semivowel [j] (Wikipedia says /ʝ/ can be realized as a fricative intervocalically in "emphatic" pronunciation, and it's longer than [j]).

tchrist

@suməlic Yeah.

suməlic

@tchrist That may be, but I've also read on Geoff Lindsey's site that the [ɪ] in English diphthong notation is more of a holdover from RP phonetics than an accurate transcription of modern pronunciation (at least, modern British pronunciation, which is what Lindsey focuses on).

Spanish /ei/, unlike English /eɪ/, is analyzed as being two vowels underlyingly that merge at some point in processing before the word is pronounced. On a phonemic level, this might be enough to explain the longer pronunciation in Spanish, and why it seems like the offglide is more emphasized than the English offglide in /eɪ/.

tchrist

@suməlic Oh I see. That would explain it. They have all kinds of weirdo transcriptions I never understand the motivation behind.

suməlic

On a phonetic level, I don't know what exactly constitutes the difference between Spanish /ei/ and English /eɪ/.

tchrist

9:17 PM

Yes, their /ou/ is very markèd as well.

suməlic

Oh, another reason "chase" and "seis" might differ aside from different underlying representations/basic pronunciations of the diphthong is that English shortens vowels before voiceless consonants, while Spanish doesn't. I'd assume it's harder to move a long distance in the vowel space in a shorter amount of time.

tchrist

Rising diphthongs are funny. Does cuter rhyme with shooter or only with pewter?

suməlic

To see if that's a contributing factor, you could look at words where /eɪ/ comes before a voiced consonant instead.

tchrist

Fade in English has a voiced consonant following.

suməlic

@tchrist In English, I'd say both. I think most languages ignore onglides for rhyming, even languages that are considered to have rising diphthongs. I'd need to check to be sure, though.

tchrist

9:21 PM

@suməlic That's right: no vowel reduction in Spanish. My English fake is quicker than my fade. It might even be higher, as with tight versus tide.

Spanish only counts the stressed vowel for rhyming.

I'd look at some though to make sure.

suməlic

@tchrist Yeah, unfortunately I don't know enough phonetics to know the details, but I'd imagine there are some secondary phonetic differences caused by the difference in length for most vowels.

I guess it would be best to look at a language that is uncontroversially classified as having phonemic rising diphthongs. I'm not sure which languages fall into this category. Romanian maybe?

tchrist

Lorca rhymes viene with estrellas so he is not counting the leading /j/.

But he also rhymes viene with relucientes, which has it.

suməlic

@tchrist Oh, when you said only the stressed vowel counts, did you mean that nothing after it counts either?! That's a very loose definition of rhyming.

tchrist

And he rhymes gente with muerde, discounting the /w/.

@suməlic All Spanish poetry uses assonant rhyme not consonant rhyme.

The consonants never count at all.

This makes more sense when a language never reduces vowels.

See these.

suməlic

Interesting. That makes it much less of a challenge to find a rhyming word.

tchrist

9:27 PM

So plata rhymes with gitana.

suməlic

@tchrist Actually, now that I've been told about this, I can remember it being used in a Spanish song I heard a while ago.

tchrist

> Assonant rhyme («rima asonante») or "half rhyme," when only the last stressed vowel (and, if any, a second, unstressed vowel) rhymes with every other even-numbered line (versos pares), leaving the odd-numbered (versos impares) lines unrhymed. Also, only strong vowels (a, e, o, í, ú) count as vowel rhymes; weak vowels (unaccented i or u) in diphthongs are ignored. Hence, a word like «iglesia» rhymes with «fuerza» only as far as the /e/ and the /a/ are concerned (the /i/ of iglesia is ignored).

They use eight-syllable meter as strongly as Old English used four-beat meter. It's the most common form.

> The "national" meter in Spanish is the octosyllable (like the iambic pentameter is the English "national" meter). It is also called the "romance" (or ballad) meter. A shorter form of the "romance," called "romancillo," is hexasyllabic (six-syllables long) and is also "national." Those two meters are in effect the most "Spanish."

From faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/A-Robert.R.Lauer-1/METRIFICATION.html

The important, and perhaps odd, thing is that “weak vowels (unaccented i or u) in diphthongs are ignored” for rhyming purposes.

suməlic

@tchrist Interesting.

tchrist

Córdoba. Lejana y sola.         (O a)
Jaca negra, luna grande,        (A e)
y aceitunas en mi alforja.      (O a)
Aunque sepa los caminos,        (A o)
yo nunca llegaré a Córdoba.     (O a a)
Por el llano, por el viento,    (E o)
jaca negra, luna roja.          (O a)
La muerte me está mirando       (A o)
desde las torres de Córdoba.    (O o a)
¡Ay que camino tan largo!       (A o)
¡Ay mi jaca valerosa!           (O a)
¡Ay que la muerte me espera,    (E a)
antes de llegar a Córdoba!      (O o a)

I think all the odd-numbered lines rhyme in O-a.

Somehow Córdoba as an O-o-a does too, but just why I'm not too sure of. Creativity of the poet perhaps?

suməlic

Yeah, that's weird.

tchrist

9:41 PM

It’s the only word in the poem with stress on the antepenult.

It's meant to stand out.

> Ya te vemos dormida.
Tu barca es de madera por la orilla.

Blanca princesa de nunca.
¡Duerme por la noche oscura!
Cuerpo y tierra de nieve.
Duerme por el alba, ¡duerme!

suməlic

Ah, that uses rhyme on every line.

tchrist

Notice how nieve and duerme rhyme in E-e. The atonic weak vowels in the rising diphthongs don't count.

That's his Canción de Cuna, so "crib song".

Rhyming every line instead of every other line can be a bit sing-songy, can't it?

This one is all E-a on the odd lines:

> El mariquita se peina
en su peinador de seda.

Los vecinos se sonríen
en sus ventanas postreras.

El mariquita organiza
los bucles de su cabeza.

Por los patios gritan loros,
surtidores y planetas.

El mariquita se adorna
con un jazmín sinvergüenza.

La tarde se pone extraña
de peines y enredaderas.

El escándalo temblaba
rayado como una cebra.

¡Los mariquitas del Sur,
cantan en las azoteas!

suməlic

@tchrist Hmm, I'm not sure. I'm not much of a poet, or very knowledgeable about poetry, unfortunately!

@tchrist The odd thing to me is that the assonance doesn't really stand out at all. It seems much more subtle than consonantal rhyme.

@tchrist Regarding /e/ vs. /eɪ/: It's pretty much cheating, but you can use words with different syllabification before /r/. "hayrick" vs. "cleric" or something along those lines.

tchrist

Does head-rhyme (alliteration) stand out more or less than that?

Now the news.   Night raids on
Five cities.   Fires started.
Pressure applied   by pincer movement
In threatening thrust.   Third Division
Enlarges beachhead.   Lucky charm
Saves sniper.   Sabotage hinted
In steel-mill stoppage. . . .

That's Auden.

Mordred in secret   mirthless watched them
betwixt hate and envy,   hope and torment.
Thus was bred the evil,   and the black shadow
o’er the courts of Arthur   as a cloud growing
dimmed the daylight   darkling slowly.

That's Tolkien.

suməlic

@tchrist I think alliteration is more obvious to me, but I guess it depends on the specific scheme. Sometimes alliteration is used unsystematically in a way that could be hard to notice the first time reading or hearing something.

tchrist

9:55 PM

When three out of four beats on a line must alliterate, it seems to stick out to me.

suməlic

@tchrist Yes, the last line in the Tolkien one is especially prominent.

tchrist

More complex in Sir Gawain:

Wherefore a marvel among men I mean to recall,
A sight strange to see some men have held it,
One of the wildest adventures of the wonders of Arthur.
If you will listen to this lay but a little while now,
I will tell it at once as in town I have heard
                        it told,
        As it is fixed and fettered
        In story brave and bold,
        thus linked and truly lettered,
        as was loved in this land of old.

But there the model was Middle English, while the first two used Old English as the model.

suməlic

Apparently in Old English alliterative verse, it was usual to only alliterate a certain number of words per line.

tchrist

The main part is alliterative, the part after the short line is European-style rhyme but still with alliteration too.

@suməlic That's right. It was simply not one to alliterate all four beats, for example.

suməlic

@tchrist Ah, I must be off now. See you later!

tchrist

10:03 PM

Bye!

user227867

10:28 PM

@Færd When you meet fierce animals, just sing. It will frighten them.

tchrist

@WillHunting Good luck with that one.

user227867

11:55 PM

The problem with many punctuation guides on the internet is that they are so incomplete that they should be deleted. Read a real book instead, like Anne Stilman's Grammatically Correct, which has 120 pages devoted to punctuation.

user227867

The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language also has a final chapter on punctuation which is 40 pages long.

user227867

I find these two the best advice on punctuation. Other guides can be very misleading, including the Penguin Guide to Punctuation which I used to recommend in the past, but now realise it is not exactly sound.

user227867

And don't even open Eats, Shoots, and Leaves, which doesn't teach you anything at all.

user227867

The punctuation sections in New Hart's Rules and the Chicago Manual of Style may be consulted, but these are general style guides, with the latter focusing mostly on American punctuation.

user227867

Finally, Butcher's Copy-editing does not cover punctuation at all, and instead refers the reader to the Penguin Guide to Punctuation, which I no longer like.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…