English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

2:38 AM

@GeorgePompidou Yes, Scheveningen is a popular beach thingy.

It was probably crowded?

I've just come back from a club.

Johan Larsson

4:42 AM

@Cerberus do you read English authors in English?

I'm debating whether to buy translations or original language.

Translations are more convenient to read and perhaps someone who knows the language does a better job at giving nuances justice.

Also reading original language feels like a knee jerk thing for a poser/snob would do which in itself is a reason enough to do the opposite.

> To tell you the truth, Hem, I've never read the Rooozhians -- Ezra Pound

Johan Larsson

6:09 AM

> Mitt i livet händer det att döden kommer och tar mått på människan. Det besöket glöms och livet fortsätter. Men kostymen sys i det tysta.

PerformanceDBA

7:42 AM

@Mitch creamery is an English word, meaning the place where butter or cheese is made. The guy meant creamy

Robusto

10:05 AM

@PerformanceDBA No, "the guy" didn't mean creamy. He meant creamery, just as he said it. If I want to say creamy I know how to do that.

Johan Larsson

10:36 AM

What is it called when a tailor measures a person?

Robusto

11:03 AM

@JohanLarsson It's called "taking someone's measurements." Maybe the tailor would say, "I need to get your measurements."

Johan Larsson

ty, next one is trickier

Kostymen sys i det tysta. The suit is sewn in the silence.

word-by-word translation

can't think of a good translation for i det tysta

Robusto

I don't even know what you're trying to say with that.

What does silence have to do with anything?

Johan Larsson

> In life it happens that death takes a mans measurements. The visit is forgotten and life goes on. But the suit is sewn in (the) silence.

did not find a translation

I det tysta is pretty similar to unsung in unsung hero I think

out of battery, afk

Robusto

@JohanLarsson I think you would just say "in silence." The suit is sewn in silence. The metaphor of a tailor concludes with this thought.

I think the metaphor is a little confused, perhaps by translating it into English.

You might want to suggest that the measurement takes place while a man is alive. All during his life he is being fitted for that final measurement, which is what others will remember of him.

Wait! I see that the metaphor does do that. First two words. No wonder I missed them. Who reads the first two words of a sentence?

But in English it might be worded better: "During a man's life, death is constantly taking his measurements. The suit is sewn in silence and worn only after he is gone." I don't know, something like that.

Mitch

@PerformanceDBA 'creamery' is a word meant to mean 'creamy, but better than _your_ creamy' so it is OK if I use it
But not someone else.

Robusto

11:19 AM

@JohanLarsson "The eternal tailor measures a man in life for the suit he will wear in death." Pithier, but perhaps not faithful to the original.

Mitch

Is the metaphor of 'taking measurements' supposed to be about getting sick periodically, or is it more ... uh ... abstract than that?

Robusto

It's not about an unsung hero. It's about what someone does in life being how he is remembered.

Mitch

Oh. That makes sense. I was being too literal

Except that after one generation no one will care.

Robusto

I don't even care now.

Mitch

I didn't care yesterday. Ha.

If it helps, I could care less.

I think I will.

Robusto

11:24 AM

Who does that help?

Mitch

11:39 AM

They know who they are.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto I don't like it, does not hint at the inevitable enough.

@Mitch I read it like that.

It is Tomas Tranströmmer btw.

Liked it, simple & elegant. Cannot translate it though.

Robusto

Translation about such things is hard.

Johan Larsson

yeah I give up :)

learn Swedish

Robusto

Mar 29 '14 at 5:20, by Robusto

The Greek poet Simonides used to write epitaphs for people. Two of his that I remember (somewhat) are: "My name is Brotachos of Euboeia, and I did not come here for death but weighty business." And: "Sir, you are not looking at the grave of some great Lydian king, for being poor my gravestone is small — yet still too much for me."

@JohanLarsson Hey, you're the one who brought it up.

Johan Larsson

yeah I failed

Robusto

11:54 AM

All translations fail. Period.

Johan Larsson

Actually I'm not sure about if I should read English authors in English or Swedish.

My thinking is that me barely knowing the language will not pick up the fine nuances.

Mitch

I've found that I get as much out of French authors in English or French

Johan Larsson

A skilled translator can perhaps make it easier to access.

Mitch

I think the originals I was reading were difficult to begin with, like Asterix or Tin tin

Johan Larsson

:)

Mitch

12:00 PM

''PAF!', 'BLART!' ... Why do the French insist on being so inscrutable?

WHAT DO THEY MEAN?

Robusto

@JohanLarsson How you gonna learn if you don't practice?

Johan Larsson

you teach me every day

reading is recreation

Robusto

Well, what are you doing right now?

You're reading. Everything I've ever said to you you've read.

Mitch

Not me. I skip some words.

But yeah. Practice is better. You already know the nuances in Swedish.

PerformanceDBA

@Mitch @Robusto Fanks.

Mitch

12:10 PM

So 'estuarian'!

Johan Larsson

@Robusto you know what I mean

Robusto

@Mitch Slacker.

@JohanLarsson Slacker.

I wish it would warm up so I can go for my ride.

Johan Larsson

true I guess, there is also the other end of the spectrum, poser.

Robusto

59.2 °F here.

Johan Larsson

Say I read in original language to be fancy, that would be 1.a lame poser.

Robusto

12:12 PM

@JohanLarsson Who you callin' a poser?

Mitch

In ELU news,I want to 'protect' questions immediately. But that would prevent people with no rep from answering, you say. And I say,ah, yes, exactly.

Johan Larsson

I would be a poser if I read in original language just to be fancy.

Robusto

Not necessarily.

I read things in the original language to learn, not to be fancy. I don't place a premium on fanciness, and I certainly don't work hard to achieve it.

Johan Larsson

What I'm trying to say is I want to max the reading experience and am not sure if translation or original language is better.

@Robusto that is also a valid reason

Mitch

You'd be a poser if you also wore a beret, while reading that.

Robusto

12:14 PM

@JohanLarsson That's easy: if you can only hack your way through in English, prefer Swedish. On the other hand, if you're more concerned with learning the language than reading a particular book, prefer English.

Johan Larsson

yep, and then there is the in between.

crl

beer!convert 59.2 F C

@crl 15.1111C

Johan Larsson

beer! beret

crl

@JohanLarsson That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.

Johan Larsson

@Mitch It would be sad and then I should be DNA banned for ten years.

crl

12:17 PM

Johan Larsson

:)

Robusto

@JohanLarsson If you're in between you can still choose a direction. What'll it be then? Laziness or industry? Ignorance or knowledge? Plainness or fanciness?

61.6 °F now. At 68 I ride.

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson I always read literature in the original language if I can.

Robusto

@tchrist: I keep wanting to read sentences like He descubierto el placer de la lectura as "He discovered . . ." instead of "I have discovered . . ." If the pronoun weren't dropped, it would not be problem in that particular instance. Not a problem for ha descubierto, but the he is so familiar as a pronoun subject my brain wants to follow that track.

tchrist

ha

Johan Larsson

12:32 PM

@Cerberus true for how many languages?

tchrist

This would not happen orally nor aurally.

Cerberus

Depends on the genre.

@tchrist True.

4 at least.

nice

12:33 PM

Greek and Latin add up to 6, but it depends: if it is a difficult genre, Greek would take too long.

Robusto

@Cerberus I would think Greek and Latin qualify as six or seven languages by themselves.

Cerberus

Haha.

There're not that difficult.

Once you get used to them.

Robusto

But you can't really find people to speak them, can you?

Cerberus

Sure I can, why?

Robusto

Dead languages?

Where do you find native Latin speakers?

Cerberus

12:35 PM

Dead, but still spoken.

tchrist

@Robusto Yesterday I discovered the joys of ASN.1 BER TLV data formatting, something I have somehow managed to avoid my entire life. I want my innocence back again.

Robusto

From my perspective, if we say Spanish is a 1.0 degree of difficulty (for learning) I would say German is probably a 2.5 and Japanese is a 5.0. Japanese grammar is deceptively simple but there are other issues.

@tchrist I am still innocent of that. Please do not spoil the pristine beauty of my ignorance.

The only octets I like are written for woodwinds or strings.

@Cerberus Native speakers of Latin are dead. My point exactly.

tchrist

@Robusto ES has its share of tricky issues that learners either don't know about, get wrong: hearing syllable-timed execution; pronunciation w/ALL consonants different from EN and no vowel reduction; 100s of irregular verbs; clitics; word order; gender concordance, esp. w/missing or misleading -o/a cues; ser vs. estar; por vs para; how to use se correctly; preterite vs. imperfect; subjunctive vs indicative; sequence of tenses; verb+prepositions matching; 5+ forms of "you"; ...

There’s more but I’ll stop. :)

Johan Larsson

@tchrist did you like An Eternal Golden Braid?

tchrist

@JohanLarsson Sure.

Did you not?

Johan Larsson

12:50 PM

I have not received my copy yet, have low expectations.

tchrist

Those are good expectations to have in general, for they thereby reduce your chances of being disappointed with anything.

Robusto

@tchrist Yes, of course. My list is a simplification, of course.

Languages are like musical instruments: some are easier to learn from the start, but all are difficult to master.

tchrist

That.

Johan Larsson

@tchrist The book is probably good but I think it requires concentration that I lack.

tchrist

One shall see.

Johan Larsson

12:55 PM

Have you read Houellebecq? You as in all/any of you.

tchrist

Can’t even pronounce it.

Robusto

Wellbeck?

Johan Larsson

Michel Houellebecq

Michel Houellebecq (French: [mi'ʃɛl wɛl'bɛk]; born Michel Thomas; 26 February 1958 or 1956) is an award-winning French author, filmmaker, and poet. Having written poetry and a biographical essay on the horror writer H. P. Lovecraft, he published his first novel, Whatever, in 1994. Atomised followed in 1998, and Platform in 2001. He published a book of poems Le Sens de Combat (translated into English as The Art of Struggle) in 1996. After a publicity tour for Platform led to his being taken to court for inciting racial hatred, he moved to Ireland to write for several years. He currently resides...

Heard good things about his books, ordering a couple.

@tchrist I had to copy-paste it nowai to spell that

Robusto

@JohanLarsson Heh, I got the pronunciation right. I rule!

Johan Larsson

@Robusto order it?

Robusto

1:04 PM

Order what?

Johan Larsson

click -> it

Robusto

You want me to click the link? Why?

Johan Larsson

answer to the order what question

I'm reading it soon, in Swedish.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson Do you mean "Answer the questions in which order?"

Or what order.

Johan Larsson

Order the book I linked if you feel like it and we can read it with proximity in time.

No more games :)

Robusto

1:10 PM

By "with proximity in time" I assume you mean concurrently, or, more colloquially (and how 99.9% of Americans would say it), "at the same time."

That's my cue!

CYAZ laterz.

Johan Larsson

So that we can perhaps discuss it while I remember anything about it.

~weeks

crl

2:45 PM

theguardian.com/science/alexs-adventures-in-numberland/2015/may/…

Robusto

Just beat my best time for the short course: 16.67 mi. in 59:57.

First time under an hour for that.

crl

I'm doing 23km in 1 hours, but there are hills, and it's not a full race bike

Robusto

The downside is that I was kicking it so hard for the first 10 miles I decided not to extend to 25.

crl

beer!convert 16.67 miles km

@crl Confuse converter with mi, receive error message

Robusto

26.83 km

crl

2:47 PM

@crl Confuse converter with miles, receive error message

ok

Robusto

I just type conversions into an open chrome window. Too easy.

Ha, and then I mistype it as 25.83 when it's really 26.83 km.

Human error. It's a bitch.

crl

i.imgur.com/z84tQ55.png?1

well only 410m of elevation

Robusto

Chemin des Ames du Purgatoire sounds awful.

crl

@Robusto hehe

it has a story, there was a massacre there garoupe.free.fr/page55.html

Robusto

We're doing about the same distance. Your area is probably hillier than mine.

My hills only total about 200m elevation gain.

You're on the Riviera?

Oh, your elevation is about the same.

crl

2:59 PM

@Robusto yes

I'm happy every time I see another bike on the road..

since more than a month I've been riding 20+km daily, not sure my bike will resist long, but it's fine for the moment

Robusto

Yeah, that's right around my normal ride. Weekends I try to go about 40km or more. Today just didn't have the energy.

crl

bike is a therapy for me, I like climbing hills standing on the pedals ("en danseuse" we say in French)

Is "climbing" a correct word for riding up a hill? we say "grimper" in French even for a vehicle

Robusto

@crl Sure.

@crl We just call it standing, or I've heard some people call it "honking" up the hill.

I don't like to stand on the pedals. It usually means the hill is too steep!

crl

3:24 PM

hehe

Johan Larsson

@Rob ok

ok but probably not very interesting if you suck at Swedish

crl

4:11 PM

@crl found 1 solution, it seems unique

talks to himself

Johan Larsson

John Nash died today.

crl

4:30 PM

Oh

[6,9,3,5,2,1,7,8,4]
[3,2,1,5,4,7,9,8,6]

are solution

Johan Larsson

10:07 PM

> Vad är ekonomi? En vetenskap uppfunnen av överklassen för att komma åt frukten av underklassens arbete. -- August Strindberg

Cerberus

11:17 PM

@Robusto Why is German more difficult?

It is much closer to English.

Is it the vocabulary?

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…