English Language Learners - 2015-03-01 (page 1 of 2)

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12:11 AM

user image

4 hours later…

4:26 AM

I'm wondering if itself is redundant in the following sentence -

> Greece has been forced subject itself to a number of austerity measures in order to get a four-month extension to its bailout, despite an election promise not to compromise.

Source

Anonymous

5:14 AM

It's being used reflexively here. It's fine, but the infinitive marker to is missing before subject

Anonymous

Fix that one little mistake and the sentence should read just fine

Well, that sentence is from a newspaper. Even I also surprised to find the missing to before subject.

But I think this sentences is similar to : The door was forced open.

Anonymous

Yes, it's from a newspaper and it contains an error

Oh I see..thanks :-)

Anonymous

5:30 AM

In "The door was forced open", the adjective at the end is a secondary predicate. It predicates on the subject door, showing the state it was in as a result of the primary predicate

Anonymous

That is a different structure

But the sentence in the newspaper can also be analyzed in that way - Greece has been [forced] [subject to a number of austerity measures]. This can also be considered to have two predicates. Greece has been forced and as a result of "force", Greece was subject to a number of austerity measures. Is this possible?

Anonymous

5:47 AM

I don't think that's a possible secondary predicate, even putting aside the issue of the role played by itself

Anonymous

Very interesting question, though

Actually I was trying to analyze that original sentence, considering that it was all correct :-)

2 hours later…

7:24 AM

Hi. I want to advocate re-opening of a question. What's the best or standard way? Creating a question in Meta?

@JimReynolds Just edit it or comment

OK. It just went "on hold".

I don't know enough about the system. If I comment, it's likely to get noticed?

Ah yes. There is reopen option available for moderates. As soon as question is edited or someones comment(i am not sure about comment) they are notified

It's this one: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/51756/usage-of-venture. OK. I already "reopened" it, (or initiated such by clicked "reopen"). But I'm not sure where to type my devastatingly brilliant appeal rationale.

More people need to click on "reopen".

7:33 AM

I think 5

you should ask @DamkerngT. @snailboat and @Man_From_India

@Freddy I am not very much aware. I will ask snailboat and damkerngT about that. In the mean time I just clicked on "reopen" :-)

OK. I'm in the process of writing my reason there as a comment. Thanks.

1 hour later…

Anonymous

8:43 AM

Meta is a great way to draw attention to a reopen vote

Anonymous

Chat works too sometimes :-)

12:36 PM

@snailboat Yes! It's very interesting, right?!

Hi world!

Hi, Earthling!

@Man_From_India I can't see that page (censorship man!)

But "forced to subject" or "forced subject ~~itself~~" are better.

@JimReynolds I reopened it. (I was the fifth!)

(Does that make me the fifth element?)

0

Q: Did + past tense or past participle?

Hye I don't know how to use did+present tense OR past tense ex: Did sarah go to the party this thursday? OR Did sarah went to the part this thursday? Where had you been? OR Where have you been? Please explain it for me :)

Feel bad for OP.

The thing's gonna get closed in thirty seconds.

(Exaggeration)

12:41 PM

Please don't!

I like that "hye".

I guess anyone who is gonna close it would point them to some other questions or webpages.

Hiya! Probably. :P

It's too brood, at least.

Maybe someone could get it done though.

Where it=answering

I have a hunch that we already have similar questions.

Maybe it was in the first year of ELL.

Whoa, we get 6 featured thingies!

12:45 PM

Lots of bounties!

Dissenter is absent,

so we get no featured in chemistry. :) :(

Hi @MARamezani

You can offer your bounty if you want to. :-)

hello @DamkerngT.

2

Q: I have a hard time understanding "since" in the following sentence

Example with a context: The setbacks to the Minsk deal since the rebels disavowed it by taking a strategic town they said was not covered by the truce have prompted new calls for U.S. President Barack Obama to give Kiev lethal weapons to defend Ukraine. I don't think I understand how since ...

12:46 PM

Hi, @Man_From_India!

Hi @Man_From_India!

The guy accepted the answer!

Why the bounty? :O

Ah maybe he just hates rep.

May be the person who started the bounty thinks that the accepted answer or any answer so far was posted there was not up to the marks.

"This question has not received enough attention." -- That's what he said.

@Man_From_India Maybe "maybe" is better instead of "may be".

Okay, the accepted answer got -1. I wonder why. -- reading

12:49 PM

@MARamezani thanks

Arguably, rephrasing since with "between the time that ... and now" is probably not ideal.

Oh, and I think they incorrectly bracketed it!

> The setbacks [to the Minsk deal [between the time that the rebels disavowed (the Minsk deal) [by taking a strategic town [that they said was not covered by the truce]] and now]] ...

I think it should be:

> The setbacks (to the Minsk deal) [between the time that the rebels disavowed (the Minsk deal) [by taking a strategic town [that they said was not covered by the truce]] and now] ...

The way they bracketed it makes it sound like it's the deal between then and now, not the setbacks between then and now.

I don't feel like losing a rep for another guy to lose two. :)

Not voting down.

Maybe tormenting them with comments?

They already got that -1.

Perhaps they could use a comment. :-)

Ahh... All our answers are close, but not quite.

I think they're good enough, though. (If I didn't overlook anything.)

Gimme a minute.

I think this explain lot better than the answer :-)

Since introduces a temporal expression modifying setbacks: "the setbacks ...[which have occurred during the time which has passed] since the rebels &c" which — StoneyB Feb 23 at 18:39

12:57 PM

The accepted one is better. The other is rather clumsy and a bit confusing. (They implied something not implied by the sentence, I think.)

Ah, I haven't seen that! (I've already upvoted snailboat's comment, though.)

I didn't try to read the other answer :-)

Yes her comment is also good. Perfect brackets.

1:10 PM

I wonder if my comment is valid.

Welcome to ELL! You must realize that the sentence pairs you ask the grammaticality of are two different fields of argument. It's better to do a study on perfect and past. — MARamezani 1 min ago

Wait, is my argument valid?

I think OP is looking for answer if after auxiliary did is there, will I use past tense or present tense

but the last set of examples he sited is not relevant.

So my argument is valid.

Phew

I think so.

1:31 PM

Which one is correct:

It helps us earn good score(s) in examinations.

Is it score or scores. I think it should be scores as it's examinations.

Scores.

One score in exams?

That isn't logical, or grammatical [maybe].

that is what I think. But just I found a comment which made me question my logic :-)

What comment?

Not a comment here in ELL...some other place :-)

but wait..i think it's common to use good score in examinations

Good score in an exam, maybe?

1:38 PM

no plural exams

that's why I find it difficult. Can't understand the logic.

Aaargh. Logic. :)

Hmm... I think score is tricky.

It could mean one number saying how well you did in a test.

Or it could mean the overall result saying how well you did in a set of tests.

hmmm...that may be the reason.

2:02 PM

12

Q: Why is it that score is used in singular when referring to several groups of 20?

If I'm not mistaken, score can mean "a group or set twenty". What I don't understand is why you say for example "Four score and seven years ago...", instead of saying "four scores" (since there are four groups of twenty years).

grammatical-number

Score is just like hundred, thousand, million or billion

That's another score!

Ah i see

@DamkerngT. I thought score was collective noun.

2:18 PM

The groups of 20 score?

I think most people use the term "collective noun" in that sense. Though I think it's easier to think of them as "unit nouns".

A glass of water, a sheet of paper, a herd of deer, a school of fish, a dozen of eggs, a score of whatever!

Hmm... I think I wrote a dozen of eggs because of the other patterns. I remember that it's more natural to say a dozen eggs (or a couple weeks).

3 hours later…

5:00 PM

Hi guys!

I have a question regarding this new privilege: Access to moderator tools blah blah.

wow...now u can act as a moderator :-)

Yay!

Anyways, why is the number that used to tell the suggesting edits (the one in brown background) going nuts?

It says 4 posts are pending review.

When I click on it, I don't get anything.

It might not got refreshed :-) refresh it, and I am sure it will be gone :-)

Nah. That doesn't work.

Oh wait it worked.

Now it shows 5!

he he..for me review cart is empty :-)

5:08 PM

Oh, I mean chemistry, not ELL.

ahh i see

Does that number show the things that are pending deletion too?

mmm I guess so

but i don't think u can delete other's post until u r a moderator

Oh you can vote for deletion,

after two days.

yes

5:10 PM

Or if a post is -3 or lower, a trusted user can vote for deletion instantly.

Oh, an important question:

Well u can vote for deletion, no actually aware about the time period..

Is this:

2

Q: Zero article before emperor in "You will not be emperor"

Emperor is a countable noun according to the Cambridge dictionary. Why the zero article is used in the following sentence? You will not be emperor. (Gladiator) Comparing to the similar construction in which the definite article is used You will be a god-king. (300 Rise of Empire)

grammar articles zero-article countability

a dup of this:

9

Q: The definite article "the" was missing

I read news on the BBC (on its website) this morning. When I was reading the news I noticed the definite article the was missing in a sentence. As per my opinion, the reporter missed the article the. But I also thought that the reporter also had some point as he did not use the article there. So ...

grammar american-english british-english indefinite-article

Read the first one. Good question, at the same time good answer. Not read the second one

I will take a look at it tomorrow.

@MARamezani I don't think it's a duplicate.

Yeah that's what I thought.

Btw @DamkerngT. why is the number going nuts?

5:39 PM

@MARamezani Sometimes it happens, I think.

Would you still see it if you refreshed the page?

I restarted chrome. It seems to be working. Case closed [I hope].

NOOOOO!

Just when I thought it was gone.

Consider: "Jill made [her boyfriend] [a ham sandwich]", and "She made [her husband] [a man]". Notice that the first version, if "of" is inserted, would have a different interpretation from what was probably intended: "Jill made [of her boyfriend] [a ham sandwich]" -- but then again, maybe she was very hungry and wanted a 180 pound meal to tie her over. — F.E. yesterday

:D

:D

I didn't know hoomins were actually funny.

Anonymous

I think you could argue that it's a duplicate but neither question discusses how a bare role NP differs grammatically

Anonymous

Or I should say, neither question has answers that do so

5:50 PM

Hi snail vehicle!

Anonymous

Hello!

Oh crap.

I'm just distracted with the crazy numbers of the posts pending review (supposedly).

Hmmmmmmmm...yummy.

Question: Do you like spaghetti?

Hello, @snailboat!

@MARamezani I like all kinds of noodles!

Not surprising coming from a Thai. :)

:)

6:05 PM

@DamkerngT. "A score of whatever." I think whatever = years.

Makes sense.

Snail left when she saw we're talking about gibberish, and came back when the subject changed to language. ;)

Anonymous

A score of people

Anonymous

A dozen eggs

Oh yeah, I didn't notice that.

Anonymous

6:10 PM

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Error 403: Your client doesn't have permission to get url blah blah blah.

Anonymous

A dozen of eggs will probably sound ungrammatical, unnatural, or old-fashioned depending on the listener

Anonymous

Oh, right. Give me a moment

Anonymous

user image

Oh, it's going to be extinct soon!

Maybe it has already been.

6:12 PM

Ding Dong.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hmm… It may still be possible under some circumstances

Anonymous

I'm not sure.

Guys, is it "help me understand" or "help me to understand" There should be a bare infinitive, right?

Anonymous

Help is special.

How?

Anonymous

6:14 PM

It licenses both bare infinitival and to-infinitival complements.

Anonymous

That is, both are okay.

Nods

Anonymous

Most verbs that take infinitival complements only take one or the other―usually the latter

Oh I just remembered. Is my sentence wrong in any ways?

Anonymous

Which sentence?

6:16 PM

"I have to see John and his family come here."

Anonymous

It seems grammatical

Anonymous

I'm not sure what context it appears in, so I can't comment on how appropriate it is semantically

I hate my English teacher.

It makes me think, what does that mean exactly?

@DamkerngT. And that "that" is?

6:17 PM

Your example.

Why does that person have to see someone come here? And how would they do it? See to it?

Heh.

No context thingie.

Perhaps.

That was an "unscramble" question in the exam.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. "I have to see things. Good things, bad things. I don't have any choice in the matter. I have to see John and his family come here. I have to see them take all of my possessions and destroy them. I have to see them laugh. All I can do is watch."

Or, it could be when you oblige yourself,

6:19 PM

@snailboat I guess that's not their intention!

because you love John or something.

Anonymous

Well, it's the meaning that occurred to me.

My guess is they perhaps wanted to say that "I have to see to it that they will arrive here safely."

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. A dozen of is okay, though. "A dozen of your finest wines, please!"

He (our English teacher) couldn't tell where he thought the mistake was (if any), but just didn't give me the mark, because he had "I have come to see John and his family here." in his mind.

Anonymous

6:22 PM

@DamkerngT. To me, see looks like a verb of perception in that example

@snailboat Ah! Thanks!

Anonymous

@MARamezani Ah, so there's really no context.

Anonymous

Both sentences seem equally grammatical to me

@snailboat Yes. Totally fictional. :)

This kind of sentence makes me uncomfortable.

Anonymous

6:23 PM

"I have come to see..." = "I have come for the purpose of seeing..."
"I have to see..." = "I must observe..."

It's a standalone complex.

Anonymous

Hmm, sounds complex!

The teacher first claimed that "come" ~~should~~ must be a gerund, and I proved him wrong.

I mean, it has no connection whatsoever to any other sentences.

Then he said it should be "comes".

Anonymous

6:24 PM

@MARamezani Can't be. It's a past participle.

He really didn't like me to get twenty.

(20 is top score in Iran, rather than 100)

Anonymous

Oh

Anonymous

You mean in the other sentence

Anonymous

Let me revise my response, then:

Anonymous

@MARamezani It would have to be come, not comes. But coming is okay, too.

6:26 PM

Admittedly, I think it's easier to visualize I have to see them coming here than I have to see them come here.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Let's try it with a telic verb. "I have to see them drowning." "I have to see them drown."

But it ISN'T grammatical!!!!!!!111

Those ones are without shift.

Anonymous

The latter implies observation of the event finishing

(half exclamation)

Wait.

0

Q: Will all thermodynamic equations have a linear dependence with moles?

I'm taking chemical thermodynamics this semester, and currently seeing things like the Maxwell's Relations. My professor never uses explicitly the variable "n" and always works with molar quantities like $\bar{V}$ and stuff like that. I think this simplifies the algebra a great deal, and can be...

@snailboat It's harder for me to visualize come the way "see them drown*.

6:28 PM

Dependence on or with?

Or both, as I think?

Hello @J.R.!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hmm, the difference seems rather subtle to me in that case. It's difficult for me to come up with a good description

No context.

nods

Hello, @J.R.!

That pretty much leaves the argument unanswered.

user116848

@J.R. Howdy!

6:30 PM

@MARamezani Yeah, moles can have a linear dependence, too, I guess.

Anonymous

There was a reason I picked a telic verb to illustrate the difference. And I'll define telic again, just in case some people here aren't familiar with the jargon:

Anonymous

A telic verb is one with a well-defined endpoint.

telic. English is weird!

Anonymous

And when you use a verb of perception (such as see) with a bare infinitival complement, it suggests that you observed the entire event, including its completion

Anonymous

We can see the difference clearly with a telic verb like drown. In this case, the end point is (unfortunately) dying underwater

Anonymous

6:32 PM

When you use the -ing form instead, it means you observed the action while it was ongoing, though you may not have observed the entire action

Interruption: WHOOOHOOO! That creepy number is gone!

I think it's more difficult for me to imagine come as a telic verb because in my L1, come is usually instantaneous or state-like.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Come is conceptualized as instantaneous in Japanese, too.

Ah!

@DamkerngT. The opposite goes for me.

Anonymous

6:33 PM

In Japanese, it takes place at the precise moment someone arrives.

Anonymous

In English, I can say someone's "coming here", meaning they're on their way.

Come isn't exactly pointing to when people "come".

That's possible in Thai as well, but not the first thing people will think of come, I believe (which is why I noted usually).

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's not possible at all in Japanese―you have to use a different verb instead

nods

Anonymous

6:35 PM

Verbs like come and go are minefields for learners who speak certain languages

Oh, I wonder how a Japanese person could imagine the telic come!

Anonymous

Not only are they encoded different ways aspectually in different languages, they're also different deictically

Anonymous

For example, in English we can imagine this conversation: "Honey, dinner's ready!" "Okay, I'm coming!"

Anonymous

In the second sentence, coming is motion relative to the listener.

Anonymous

From the speaker's perspective, you might think it's more like going.

6:36 PM

Oh, Thai lit. would be "Okay, I've come!" <-- which must sound off in English, I think

Anonymous

In Tokyo Japanese, you'd have to say "Okay, I'm going!" because these verbs are always relative to the speaker, not the listener

Anonymous

The same goes for other deictic verbs like bring

Aww... and take and get and give too, perhaps.

Anonymous

Will you bring soda to your friend's party? Or will you take soda to your friend's party?

I would get soda. :)

6:38 PM

I think it's bring in English.

Bring is legit to me too.

Get would work fine in Thai (lit.)

Get gives me the implication that I barely survived bringing them there.

lol

Anonymous

@MARamezani "Mayday, mayday! I got soda to the party, but only just … send help!"

6:40 PM

LOL

I get to get soda to the party.

What would that be?

I happened to get soda to the party.

Playing with verbs was more fun than I thought.

Anonymous

@MARamezani "I'm lucky! Not many people get to do something like getting soda to the party."

Lucky me/you...I mixed it up.

Looks like soda got there safely.

Well done soldier!

Anonymous

6:43 PM

0

Q: This is gotta be the worst job in the world

Help me to understand the following sentence: I heard it in the movie, but not sure about whether I heard that correctly. This is gotta be the worst job in the world. The context is when someone has to clean a house and duirng that they are grumbling that sentence.

sentence-meaning

At least that's the catch phrase I remember.

Anonymous

"This has got to be ..."

You've gotta be kidding me!

@snailboat Exactly!

Maybe, it was "This's gotta be..."

They have probably heard it in a movie.

At least, a listening, or a boring TV show.

Anonymous

6:46 PM

@MARamezani Right, it was almost certainly a reduced pronunciation

@MARamezani You're right! -- "I heard it in the movie, but not sure about whether I heard that correctly."

Anonymous

Something like /ˈðɪs əz/

Anonymous

Where you can't distinguish between is and has

Anonymous

But it's not normally written "This's"

I'm a master guesser. Just like Sensei.

Anonymous

6:46 PM

(It is sometimes, but that's not really considered a standard spelling.)

Is that spelled right? (Sensei)

Anonymous

Yes.

0

Q: How to find sentences exemplifying a secondary rarer definition?

Please beware that I ask this in general, and not only for 'such as'. User 'TRomano' 's comment inspires this question. I've tried to find (superlative) sentences exemplifying the scarcer definitions 2 and 3. So if I simply input or look up 'such as', the results will instantiate only definition...

What was Law's intention on posting that?

Oh, it's on our meta site now?

Yeah. It got migrated.

Anonymous

6:48 PM

I don't know. I can't read people's minds, but perhaps they could consult the OED

@MARamezani How to find more example sentences of some particular usage.

Anonymous

I refer to that user as Law Area. It seems like a nice name

Law Area?

Funny.

I usually shorten his username as LawA51P.

Anonymous

That works!

Anonymous

6:49 PM

I don't really want to help advertise their Area 51 site, so I don't type out the full name

Maybe ask him?

Get real. Law's way better than those peculiarities!

Anonymous

I think a site for crowd sourcing legal advice is a bad idea and doomed to failure

nods -- It is potentially harmful.

(Unless all answerers are attorneys or something similar.)

@snailboat This is Law after hearing this:

Anonymous

Most attorneys don't give legal advice for free online to people they don't know or represent who may not be in the jurisdiction where they're licensed to practice

6:54 PM

user image

user116848

Yeah I watched that cartoon.

Anonymous

What cartoon is that?

user116848

@snailboat That's some legal talk snail ;-)

Despicable me 1.

Anonymous

@arrowfar Well, I'm not a lawyer, though my brother is

6:57 PM

The minion's saying "What?!" in that manner.

user116848

@snailboat Oh is he? Nice!

user116848

That's a great profession.

Anonymous

So you don't necessarily have to take anything I say on the subject seriously―but then, that's true of every subject I talk about

Anonymous

Except perhaps for snails. Everything I say about snails is deadly serious.

My little brother is an aficionado.

Of that cartoon.

user116848

6:58 PM

@snailboat Hah

@snailboat Hee

@snailboat Yeah. Deadly.

@MARamezani Oh, no!

@DamkerngT. Oh no! Indeed!

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