English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

12:05 AM

@snailboat Super-duper!

Anonymous

imgur.com/RdMJZnM

Damkerng T.

Wow! I don't know how they did it, but it looks really nice!

Anonymous

Right now, ELU gets 51 questions/day. ELL gets 31 questions/day.

Anonymous

ELL's low was around 10/day, I believe.

Anonymous

637

English Language Learners – ell.stackexchange.com

Beta Q&A site for speakers of other languages learning English.

Currently in public beta.

Anonymous

12:16 AM

Unfortunately, the answer rate dropped to 97%!

Damkerng T.

I guess we should close more questions.

Anonymous

227 questions with no upvoted answers

Damkerng T.

Umm... That was said only half jokingly.

Anonymous

Oh, I didn't mean that as a direct response

Anonymous

Hehe :-)

Anonymous

12:18 AM

I was just looking

Damkerng T.

Because we'd better not feed the bears, I think I shouldn't upvote answers to those would've-been-better questions.

Anonymous

There are times that I've downvoted an answer because I felt it shouldn't have been answered

Anonymous

Having an upvoted answer prevents an off-topic question from being automatically deleted at a later date

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

I know it's kind of harsh, but...

Anonymous

12:22 AM

We shouldn't encourage very off-topic questions

Damkerng T.

nods -- Talking about off-topic...

7

Q: What do "M", "G" and "B" buttons mean in an elevator?

What do "M", "G" and "B" buttons mean in an elevator, besides "1", "2", ...? Confusing. Thanks.

Anonymous

If a question is only arguably off-topic I'd never do that

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure if this is on-topic. I think it's marginal. :-)

I've never found an elevator that got M, G, B all at once!

Anonymous

I can't remember one

Anonymous

I might have been in one before, though

Anonymous

12:24 AM

I don't remember an M button in any elevator!

Anonymous

I wouldn't be able to answer that question...

Damkerng T.

I can recall only one, in Bangkok!

The M floor actually deserves to be called the second floor, imo.

But the front part of it is voided, so the building has a really, really large front hall.

I guess that's why they use M.

Anonymous

In Chicago, I mostly remember elevators having B buttons, maybe sometimes both G and B

Anonymous

It could just be my faulty memory :-)

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

12:28 AM

I think it's rare to see B and G together, I can't remember I found one.

Wait, M above 3?!

Anonymous

Upper level, mezzanine, lower level?

Damkerng T.

LOL!

Maybe Upper Lobby?

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

Starred Mezzanine, and Lower Lobby?

Anonymous

12:29 AM

Now there I can imagine the L being Lobby

Anonymous

Uh, radio frequency? Player one?

Anonymous

This elevator is a mystery to me. :-)

Anonymous

Parking one to three, I guess.

Damkerng T.

Hehe! I guess just R would make sense. :-)

Anonymous

12:30 AM

Oh, roof!

Anonymous

See how slow I am? :-)

Anonymous

I think that every time you get into an elevator, it can have new button labels and you have to figure them out from context

Damkerng T.

Hey, they have 13th floor!

Anonymous

Now here's an enigmatic elevator:

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

12:31 AM

Oh, it's a hospital elevator.

Anonymous

Why is D starred? Is that the ground floor, and B and C are below it?

Anonymous

If so, what happened to A?

Damkerng T.

It reminds me of Michale Crichton's novel.

Those five colors!

Anonymous

C and B!

Damkerng T.

12:32 AM

All personnel must be decontaminated appropriately before they're allowed to get to the next level!

Anonymous

I guess it's like, {C B A} and {1 2 3}, and the overlapping A=1 floor was replaced with ☆Ｌ

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hehe!

Anonymous

I suppose the PH button takes you to Phuket

Damkerng T.

Are those Braille letters?

Anonymous

12:34 AM

Looks like. I can't read Braille so I can't tell for sure without looking it up

Anonymous

But I think Braille like that is somewhat common in elevators

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Or maybe the Philippines!

Anonymous

I guess ★ＳＴ is short for STAR!

Anonymous

It's the ★STAR floor!

Damkerng T.

12:35 AM

Wow! What's there on that floor!?

Anonymous

I thought for a moment it could be thirty-seven ("sirty theven")

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

Our elevators are becoming more and more complex!

Anonymous

They have a lot of roofs on that building!

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

12:36 AM

I can't figure out those buttons.

Anonymous

Okay, we've got the Mezzanine, which you helpfully explained to me as being a quasi-second floor

Damkerng T.

Me either!

Anonymous

☆Ｌ is the lobby

Anonymous

Ｂ is . . . basement?

Damkerng T.

I would guess that too.

Anonymous

12:37 AM

I'm not sure about Ｆ|▷ or Ｆ|◁

Anonymous

Or Ｒ|▷ or Ｒ|◁

Damkerng T.

Oh, maybe it's a special kind of elevator!

Those elevators that can open on two sides, but not at the same time.

Anonymous

That's a nice interface! It tells you entire names!

Damkerng T.

I like #9!

Anonymous

12:39 AM

sxates.com/design/redesigning-an-elevators-ui

Anonymous

Here's another one with a Lower Level button

Anonymous

Um.

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

> How often have you been in an elevator and seen someone trying to catch it as the doors close? It happens a lot, and if you’re like me that person sometimes misses the elevator simply because the ‘door open’ button was too hard to find in a hurry.

Anonymous

12:41 AM

Mezzanine and . . . cezzanine?

Anonymous

Cobby?

Damkerng T.

A lot! -- pointing to self

@snailboat I can't guess C!

Anonymous

What is this mysterious ☆Ｃ?

Anonymous

Hehe!

Damkerng T.

The star must be important 'cause it has its own Braille letter!

Anonymous

12:43 AM

Well, now we can ask on ELL: What do Ｃ, LL, UL, RF, G, M, B, LR, BR, MR, F, ST, ☆, ★, B through K, L1 and L2, and R1 through R8 mean?

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

Oh, there are even more!

Anonymous

I looked for "elevator buttons" on Google Images and found Ｃ, LL, UL, RF, G, M, B, LR, BR, MR, E, F, P, ST, ☆, ★, B through K, ↑, ↓, G1 and G2, LR, ☎, ▷|◁, ◁|▷, F|▷, F◁|, R|▷, R◁|, T, L1 and L2, 1R through 3R, and R1 through R8. I guess it would probably be off-topic if I asked what those all meant . . . :-) — snailboat just now

Damkerng T.

LOL!

Oh, star is for "street level"!

Anonymous

A-ha!

Damkerng T.

12:53 AM

@Tim No, it would usually be the letter and a star, like M*. — DCShannon 2 hours ago

Anonymous

So ★ＳＴ is ★STREET

Anonymous

F|▷, F◁|, R|▷, R◁| are perhaps left and right forward and rear doors...?

Damkerng T.

Oh! So the elevator can open four ways!?

Anonymous

I, um, don't know . . . :-)

Anonymous

I was guessing after you suggested the left and right doors could be controlled individually

Anonymous

12:54 AM

> Those elevators that can open on two sides, but not at the same time.

Anonymous

But maybe you meant two sides as in forward and back

Damkerng T.

Yup.

Anonymous

But then why do they have left and right buttons? :-)

Anonymous

Maybe one is open and one is close

Damkerng T.

When I found one, both doors usually open at the same time, but I remember a few of them are exceptions!

Anonymous

12:55 AM

F|▷, F◁|, R|▷, R◁| ← Forward open, forward close, rear open, rear close?

Damkerng T.

And they don't have a very complicated UI. They just have two separate sets of control panels.

@snailboat Oh, possibly makes sense. Hmm...

Anonymous

Now, what was T... :-)

Damkerng T.

I wish I wouldn't be trapped in one like that!

Anonymous

Is this one a joke?

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

12:58 AM

@snailboat This is hard. I'm quite sure that it doesn't mean Thailand, though. :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That's right, we've already determined that buttons are specific to provinces

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I guess Harry Potter must be living there! :-)

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Maybe Top! I remember a book titled See You at the Top!

Anonymous

I can't read the upper right button

Anonymous

12:59 AM

Looks vaguely like TEXAS

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

I guess so. Not sure!

Anonymous

In this one, T is probably Theater!

Anonymous

Or um, something else!

Anonymous

Lobby... roof?

Anonymous

1:01 AM

And what's the difference between ◁▷ and ◁|▷, or between ▷◁ and ▷|◁?

Damkerng T.

LOL!

Anonymous

E!

Anonymous

In case you want to go to the Elevator

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

1:02 AM

Anonymous

1U = First Floor, Upper Portion?

Anonymous

They have a Π button!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I guess they simply call 2nd floor 1U, so they can get rid of the 13th floor!

Anonymous

Ha, good call!

Anonymous

1:04 AM

Anonymous

Is this one in Italy? Do they have "A" there, and negative floors?

Damkerng T.

Takenomori!

@snailboat I see the same thing!

Anonymous

A Japanese restaurant in Italy?

Damkerng T.

A for atrium?

Anonymous

Ooh, good call

Anonymous

1:05 AM

This one must be a joke:

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

LOL

I sure won't get into that elevator!

Anonymous

Maybe it's a sample to show off types of buttons you can buy

Damkerng T.

I guess you're right!

Anonymous

One of my friends used to live in a building with a way old elevator that had one of those foldy things that goes in front of it

Anonymous

1:08 AM

You had to shut it yourself

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It's interesting that they write Parking, but Salones.

I like the sound of Solarium, anyway.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Maybe parking is one of those loan words that's made its way into a zillion languages

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I've only seen such things in movies!

Anonymous

It's used verbatim in Japanese

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

1:09 AM

Anonymous

Lower level and . . . elder level

Anonymous

Lobby lounge and elevator lounge

Anonymous

Electric llama?

Damkerng T.

If only they had added one more L to the topmost button...

Anonymous

Hehe!

Anonymous

1:10 AM

EL LL

Anonymous

We can make a portmanteau: ELL

Damkerng T.

:D

I wonder why they pointed the arrow to that button.

Anonymous

Here's another elevator to take you to PH:

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Maybe someone was writing an online instruction manual for that elevator

Damkerng T.

1:11 AM

Hmm... Curiouser and curiouser, this PH!

Anonymous

"Press this button if you need to visit the vertical bar placed between a pair of symmetrical triangles floor"

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

Uh.

Anonymous

Now that's mysterious.

Anonymous

1:14 AM

ux-fundstuecke.blogspot.com/2013/01/aufzug.html

Damkerng T.

Oh, PH means Penthouse!

Anonymous

Ooh, I didn't think of that!

Anonymous

I should have waited to leave my message so I could add all the other buttons I found :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

That was fun, but I ran out of images!

Damkerng T.

1:17 AM

Is there a quota on images uploaded a day?

Anonymous

My image search ran out.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

I got to the bottom and Google stopped giving me images!

Anonymous

I could keep going by searching for other things or using another image search service, but I figured that was a good place to stop! :-)

Anonymous

I've been going through a book I bought about Japanese maybe eight years ago but never read

Anonymous

1:19 AM

About onomatopoeia!

Damkerng T.

I like your TEXAS button (or whatever that is); it gives me a similar feeling of language learners trying to listen to native speakers. We kind of hear it, yet not really hear it. :-)

Anonymous

I think that a lot of Japanese learners learn a bunch of vocabulary with kanji, but onomatopoeia don't have kanji, and I think they get neglected sometimes

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, an onomatopoeia encyclopedia!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hehe!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Each entry gives a list of uses, and then natural-sounding example sentences from conversations

Anonymous

1:21 AM

Although onomatopoeia isn't actually restricted to conversational Japanese, that's where it's most prevalent

Anonymous

It also talks about the symbolism of various sounds that make up onomatopoeia

Damkerng T.

Neat! What's fascinating is that we have a whole book dedicated to that!

Anonymous

It gives English examples to introduce the concept of sound symbolism, like gl symbolizing light: glance, glint, glimmer, glisten, glow, gleam, glitz

Damkerng T.

Oh, I like these words!

glitz is new to me.

Anonymous

Glitzy

Damkerng T.

1:24 AM

A lot of words begin with gl.

Anonymous

It's true.

Anonymous

Many are unrelated to the light symbolism, like glue

Damkerng T.

Oh, I don't know its origin.

Oh, gluten, that is!

Anonymous

But glue does sound like a "sticky" word, doesn't it?

Anonymous

Think of words like gloopy

Anonymous

1:28 AM

They seem to be in the same family

Anonymous

In terms of sound-meaning correspondence

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure, maybe because I learned glue when I was rather young. So it's just glue to me.

Anonymous

Well, to me too, but I think it sounds gluey

Damkerng T.

(So instead of it's glue because it's gluten, to me it's more like it's gluten because it's glue.)

Anonymous

I never realized there was any connection until I looked it up

Anonymous

1:30 AM

Cognate with clay!

Damkerng T.

Gloopy clay is gooey!

What's the subject of the verb asking? — Araucaria Oct 19 at 19:50

> The client sent me a letter asking if we could change the information for them.

Interesting!

Anonymous

You could argue that it's attached to client or letter, but I think it's the latter

Anonymous

> I got a letter asking if we could change the information for them.

Anonymous

Here, I is clearly not the one asking

Damkerng T.

Your sentence is clear. I guess the client sentence is ambiguous. :-)

Anonymous

1:40 AM

I would be more inclined to give the original sentence the other reading if it had a comma

Anonymous

> The client sent me a letter, asking if we could change the information for them.

Anonymous

Now we can see that this is the same as:

Damkerng T.

Ah, yes. The comma again!

Anonymous

> The client, asking if we could change the information for them, sent me a letter.

Anonymous

Or at least, we could argue that it is :-)

Damkerng T.

1:42 AM

nods

Anonymous

I think the subject of the verb asking is technically a gap

Damkerng T.

A gap? Hmm...

Anonymous

A letter [ ~~which was~~ asking . . . ]

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I see. I think it's simpler to think of it as a post-modifier.

Anonymous

There would be a gap in subject position, which the relative pronoun which would relate to the head noun outside the phrase, letter

Anonymous

1:44 AM

Sure

Anonymous

It is clearly some kind of post-modifier

Anonymous

I wish I could edit comments past the 5 minute time limit.

Damkerng T.

I wish that too.

Anonymous

Oh, that's separate from the dative alternation―you'll notice *"[I] was given with X" is ungrammatical. So we need to consider this combination a type of idiom, a "phrasal verb". Specifically, it's a verb + preposition phrase idiom (so it's not like "light up the room" where up can move to the end of the sentence, giving "light the room up"). It has both active and passive versions, too: ③ X issued [me] with a lunch card. → [I] was issued with [a lunch card] (by X). — snailboat 2 hours ago

Anonymous

I want to get rid of the brackets around a lunch card in the example at the end.

Anonymous

1:51 AM

But I can't!

Anonymous

Oh well, probably no one knows what I mean by that stuff anyway :-)

Anonymous

"Snailboat's using brackets for no reason again!"

Damkerng T.

But you could delete the old one and write a new one instead.

Anonymous

I could!!

Anonymous

It would notify them again.

Damkerng T.

1:53 AM

I haven't read your comments, but I think "issued with the lunch card" sounds off.

Anonymous

People say X issued Y with Z

Damkerng T.

I thought it was only about machines.

Anonymous

I replaced it!

Damkerng T.

I think I like "X issued [the lunch card] to me" more.

Anonymous

Like: The county clerk's office issued me (with) a license to ship live snails across state borders.

Damkerng T.

1:56 AM

nods -- It would sound weird to me if we added with there.

Anonymous

I put it in! :-)

Anonymous

google.com/…

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

What do you think of those?

Damkerng T.

Maybe this is similar to the case of "opposite (to)".

Anonymous

1:57 AM

Are they better than mine?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Not really, but they are quite overwhelming! So I guess I just have to change my idea.

Oh, I split have to!

Anonymous

Although to is almost always a separate word, in wanna, gonna, usta, hafta, gotta, oughta, and sposta, Pullum argues that these are single word combinations

Anonymous

I got the list slightly wrong!

Anonymous

So I guess in those cases splitting it up with an adverb might be unnatural

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

2:03 AM

Linguistics is full of funny stuff like that that makes you go "Oh, yeah! That's true, that does sound funny", but where I'd never have noticed the pattern on my own :-)

Anonymous

I mean, I can tell when stuff sounds funny.

Anonymous

But coming up with patterns and explaining it is another thing entirely :-)

Damkerng T.

Indeed! I tried to hack my first language the way some of our learners like to do and sometimes I can't really tell if my hacked stuff is really invalid.

I mean, I'm quite sure that most native speakers wouldn't use it, but what if someone used it, would it be really wrong? That's where I'm not sure.

Anonymous

Sometimes native speakers disagree about things people don't say

Anonymous

"Well, you could say that." "No, it sounds wrong!"

Damkerng T.

2:06 AM

Exactly!

Anonymous

Sometimes it's possible to come up with rules that correctly predict differing judgments

Damkerng T.

(Though some errors are quite obvious.)

Anonymous

And in these cases we can say there are System A speakers and System B speakers

Damkerng T.

Hah! Like, dialects, I guess.

Anonymous

Well, on a specific subject, variation can cut across dialects.

Anonymous

2:08 AM

But I think you're right, yes

Anonymous

> I certainly will, and you already have, set the record straight with respect to the budget.

Anonymous

Here, will set and have set work for most (all?) speakers because the past participle and bare infinitive forms of set are the same

Anonymous

But the list of words for which those are the same varies from speaker to speaker

Anonymous

You could come up with a sentence that would hopelessly confuse one speaker and would sound fine to another :-)

Damkerng T.

Ah, that sounds like fun!

(People on my left, please be confused. People on my right, you guys understand me perfectly, I believe. :-)

Anonymous

2:11 AM

> There before me sat one of the ugliest creatures I ever have or ever will come upon in the whole of my life.

Anonymous

This is okay because come is one of those verbs for which the two forms are the same.

Anonymous

> There before me sat one of the ugliest creatures I ever have or ever will encounter in the whole of my life.

Anonymous

Now have expects encountered, but will expects encounter!

Anonymous

So for many speakers, this would be ungrammatical.

Anonymous

But for some speakers it's actually okay because, when two different forms are expected, they always expect it to match whichever conjunct is closer!

Anonymous

2:13 AM

So many speakers would call this ungrammatical, and others would be surprised people think something is wrong with it

Anonymous

Funny, huh? :-)

Anonymous

Examples courtesy of Professor Zwicky

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

(I also guess they would probably have had a good fight on this!)

Anonymous

I think FumbleFingers is a System B speaker, because I remember him arguing that this sort of sentence was perfectly normal

Damkerng T.

I think I tend to accept these quirks, probably more easily because I'm not a native speaker.

Though I'm sure some quirks would strike me as odd.

Anonymous

2:17 AM

I always feel a little wary as a non-native speaker of Japanese

Anonymous

But I try to remind myself that language is a bit fuzzy for native speakers, too :-)

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

It's not too hard to remember. After all, it seems to be pretty easy to ask native speakers questions about grammar where they aren't really sure and have to ponder for a bit . . . :-)

Damkerng T.

If there is anything stronger than any belief systems in our brains, I guess it would be our first languages. :-)

Anonymous

Although maybe I just ask silly questions.

Anonymous

2:19 AM

Here on ELL, people ask a lot of pretty challenging questions.

Anonymous

I can't answer everything off the top of my head.

Anonymous

Some questions are kind of iffy:

Anonymous

0

Q: Phrasing questions in passive voice

Which is the right way to phrase "Who made this mess?" in the passive voice? By whom were made this mess? or Who was this mess made by? How should I write questions in passive voice?

passive-voice passive

Damkerng T.

Though I guess you almost always have a pretty good idea by just reading the question.

Anonymous

This question presupposes that there is a right way

Anonymous

2:20 AM

@DamkerngT. Well, I could post answers to almost every question off the top of my head.

Anonymous

But if I went back and researched them later, I might find that some of my answers were a little too poorly considered . . . :-)

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

My tendency, in all things, is to do stuff a little too quickly and without thinking quite enough

Anonymous

So I always have to remind myself to slow down and take a minute to think

Anonymous

It's one of my failings

Anonymous

2:22 AM

Patience doesn't come easily to me :-)

Anonymous

So I try to make myself wait before submitting an answer, and also to make myself check resources when I can

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, I have an easy fix for that, but you might not like it. -- My idea is doing the same thing twice.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ooh, sounds like an interesting approach. Details? :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I realized this after I had done enough number of projects.

I realized that the result is usually better in the second round.

So, I started to use this approach. Do a real fast sprint in the first round.

And I would call it, a "toy". But this "toy" will give us a really good idea about what we need in the real system.

I guess you probably already do something similar.

It was so cool of me (only back then) because I did that before the gang of four and agile development.

I think we have too many libraries to use these days, and they change the way we develop things.

But I think the idea still works great on anything we have to start from the scratch.

Anonymous

3:55 AM

Can we get this reopened? @DamkerngT. @Arrowfar

Anonymous

41

Q: How can native English speakers read an unknown word correctly?

I have learned English for many years, and from the first day I began to learn it I know the dictionary is necessary for the study. One of the important aspects is that English words, unlike German and Spanish, usually can not be read correctly without phonetics. But recently, I talked with som...

pronunciation

Anonymous

To those who wish to close this question as "too broad" or "primarily opinion based": I disagree, mainly because the answer happens to be "they can't". If it were possible but difficult, then it would have been too broad. — 200_success 2 days ago

Anonymous

It seems so wasteful for that question to be closed

Damkerng T.

4:06 AM

The native speakers who told you that are wrong. — snailboat Oct 19 at 7:47

+48!

I hope to see a supernova soon!

Oh, it's already been a supernova!

Anonymous

4:32 AM

Hopefully from a safe distance. :-)

Anonymous

4:49 AM

@Fantasier Hey, you could help us reopen it too, if you wanted! :-)

Fantasier

Huh? Yeah. Interesting!

Freddy

Seems there is some problem with chat rooms with mobile!!

Ice Boy

mine works fine

Anonymous

@Freddy I use the mobile interface for chat sometimes from my phone

Freddy

Whole room is blinking

Anonymous

4:58 AM

I tried using the desktop interface from my phone once, and I got the crazy blinking stuff

Anonymous

So you need to figure out how to get back to the mobile interface

Ice Boy

the link is in the right hand corner

Freddy

Its over bottom, extreme right written mobile

Ice Boy

"mobile"

Anonymous

Did you get it fixed? :-)

Damkerng T.

6:51 AM

> Our team is so blessed to have each other, since we are special in our own way - Creative, Hardworking, Dedicated, Committed, Passionate, so making work fly by.
http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/37370/3281

The sentence sounds a bit weird to me. Just a little bit.

Maybe their manager is non-native?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It does sound weird.

Damkerng T.

Oh, the OP fixed the Willy Wonka quote already!

> It was not a question of them being able to get a car.

Anonymous

7:37 AM

@DamkerngT. Well, that may not be the sentence from Willy Wonka, but it is grammatical and sensible