English Language Learners

12:00 AM

Ok Thank you. BTY I am now watching a video, US teacher, youtube.com/watch?v=OMXmRRhiFCQ

Hmm... maybe my explanation wasn't as precise as I'd want it to be. How many "tight approximate formula(s)" are there in your context?

If there's only one and your reader knows it, then the.

If there are more than one; yet your reader still knows which, then the.

If there are more than one and your reader doesn't know which (you're talking about), then a.

If your reader doesn't have a clue what or which "tight approximate formula" you're talking about, then a.

barznjy

@DamkerngT. I have two formulas, but they are the heart of my work. so every reader should know it

Damkerng T.

@barznjy If there are two, it's very important that your reader must know which one you're talking about, in order to use the.

You don't have to write it out explicitly. Just pretend you're the reader and don't know much about your work. Will you know which formula it is on that line when you read your paper yourself?

barznjy

@DamkerngT. Yes

Damkerng T.

Okay. Then the is good! :-)

barznjy

12:06 AM

In fact I add the following to it
We have used the tight approximate formula, derived in Appendix A, to show ...

I think in this case everyone know what is the formula

Damkerng T.

A-ha! The is good. I wouldn't use commas, though, I think.

Anonymous

@barznjy That looks good :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think removing the commas is okay

Anonymous

I don't think it's wrong with them, though

Damkerng T.

If it's a bit formal paper, I might even add as or which is or which will be.

@snailboat nods

barznjy

12:09 AM

@DamkerngT. it is journal paper

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I'm not sure if parentheses or commas would be a better choice in journals.

Though it looks like I'd expect to see parentheses there.

barznjy

We have used the tight approximate formula which derived in Appendix A to show ...

Damkerng T.

> We have used the tight approximate formula (as derived in Appendix A) to show ...

But that's just me. :D

barznjy

@DamkerngT. Thanks

Damkerng T.

You're welcome!

Damkerng T.

12:27 AM

3

Q: None so blind as they/them that will not see?

What should come 'they' or 'them'? What rule should I apply here? None so blind as they/them that will not see. My thought process: The sentence has two independent clauses. "None so blind as they/them" is the first clause. The verb for the first clause is "blind". The subject for blind i...

personal-pronouns

Anonymous

Isn't those the right choice?

Anonymous

What the: corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=39501838

Anonymous

Haha!

Anonymous

> Kermit, my lad, this reminds me of something an old Army sergeant I knew used to say: "They is none so blind as them as has they heads stuck up they asses." Here endeth the lesson.

Anonymous

Okay, the one result for them is clearly (intentionally!) non-standard

Damkerng T.

12:30 AM

I was more curious about the that, actually.

Anonymous

Oh, what about it?

Damkerng T.

Strangely enough. I thought it should be who, but I feel like it's better with that, so maybe that is really possible.

It also reminds me of that line: It's you that's not enough.

Anonymous

goo.gl/Cd9hFH

Anonymous

Oh, let's do one for that

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. goo.gl/kBQWng

Damkerng T.

12:33 AM

Oh, some people really use that!

Anonymous

Is there supposed to be a rule against using that-relatives when the head noun has human reference?

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure, but instinctively it sounds a bit wrong to me.

Anonymous

Hmm. I think there's likely a preference for who

Anonymous

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3084

Anonymous

See #7

Damkerng T.

12:36 AM

A-ha! Thanks!

Anonymous

I've read every post on Language Log. I remember shockingly few of them :-)

Anonymous

Thankfully, I have Google!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Wow!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, I've been reading it since 2003

Anonymous

I just haven't managed to fall behind yet :-)

Damkerng T.

12:39 AM

How many posts is that? (somehow 'are' sounds off to me here)

Anonymous

Umm, I think maybe 10k-ish

Anonymous

Yeah, is

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Whoa! That's almost half your rep points (on ELL)!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I'd like to think I've been gradually absorbing knowledge all this time, but sometimes when I re-read posts from a decade ago I think "Wow! I didn't know that until this year!"

Damkerng T.

Let's see... if I want to read all that in a year... 10k/365...

Anonymous

12:40 AM

So probably a lot of it was going over my head :-)

Damkerng T.

I must read almost 30 posts a day!

Anonymous

Or maybe through it. Y'know, in one ear, out the other?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Hey, there's exactly the same phrase in Thai! เข้าหูซ้าย ออกหูขวา

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, that's neat!

Damkerng T.

(lit. [in-ear-left] [out-ear-right])

Anonymous

12:42 AM

I always liked that phrase.

Anonymous

It's one of the clichés reviled by George Orwell

Damkerng T.

Oh! In 1984?

Anonymous

Oh, no

Damkerng T.

Ah, in his real life, then?

Anonymous

Yeah, he suggested people avoid using worn out phrases

Anonymous

12:44 AM

> Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

It's from his famous essay, Politics and the English Language

Damkerng T.

Sounds like he was suggesting newsspeak! (was it single or double s?) -- I guess it's newspeak 'cause it's new.

Anonymous

One s

Anonymous

It's new speak, not news speak

Damkerng T.

12:45 AM

Yay!

Anonymous

News speak would be the sort of language particular to reporters

Damkerng T.

Oh, nice! All his 50 essays are on Gutenberg.

@snailboat Hey, he didn't put a comma before or!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. He didn't?

Damkerng T.

Yep, he didn't!

Or else, this version must be different: gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html

Wow, lots of capitalized words in there!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. My version must have been edited at some point

Anonymous

12:52 AM

There are lots of copies online. Searching on Google, I find many with and many without

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, so we can't know for sure which one is the original, perhaps.

Anonymous

Well, the essay itself says grammar is of no importance as long as you communicate effectively. Perhaps he'd think a mere Oxford comma was of even less importance :-)

Damkerng T.

Argh! A bee attack!

@snailboat Cool!

A bee attack is more likely when I wear anything white.

Anonymous

books.google.com/…

Anonymous

No comma!

Anonymous

12:55 AM

It was originally published in Horizon.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, is that how it works?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It looks like so! I think bees don't see anything but the brightness.

And they want to get out there in the sunlight. So I think, they must think I'm the window or something when I look like a white mass.

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

I may have confused saySay more

Anonymous

Has anyone discussed the terms complement and argument with saySay?

Anonymous

1:01 AM

(Or for that matter, if the subject should be considered one)

Anonymous

I'm used to using the term complement when discussing English and argument when discussing Japanese

Anonymous

0

Q: Discerning arguments of verbs, predicates?

I think I get that a verb may utilize arguments. Does a predicate announce something of an object (or subject)? In, "The lake froze solid". The lake seems a noun phrase that solid may predicate on?

predicate argument

Anonymous

They got that example from my secondary predicate answer :-)

Anonymous

I suggested that it was a resultative secondary predicate

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Probably not.

(Sorry for being away. I'd got to take care of a few bees!)

Anonymous

1:04 AM

Oh!! You're still under attack!!

Anonymous

Somehow I thought typing meant you were safe now :-)

Anonymous

Be safe!

Damkerng T.

I changed my shirt!

Anonymous

Are you now clad in black?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Thanks!

@snailboat Sorta navy blue-ish.

Anonymous

1:05 AM

Close enough :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, there is only one comma in the body of the question! And it looks good, even!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. This question is much better than saySay's questions were at first

Damkerng T.

nods

applause

StoneyB

1:23 AM

@snailboat I have answered one of saySay's questions with considerable blather about objects, complements and arguments. I told him that with verbs complements are a subset of arguments and objects are subset of complements.

@snailboat Yes; s/he seems to pick things up quickly.

Man_From_India

2:44 PM

@snailboat If you have the page number, can you please post it? Thanks :-)

Anonymous

6:26 PM

@Man_From_India The page number for what exactly?

Anonymous

6:48 PM

Oh, I'm on a computer now, so I can see which message you're replying to

Anonymous

On my phone I couldn't!

Anonymous

7:00 PM

@Man_From_India I'm having trouble finding the passage I remember reading...

Anonymous

Once again I lament not taking better notes!

Anonymous

@Man_From_India See page 1192

Anonymous

In particular, footnote 12

Anonymous

I'm going to add the word to to the following example:

Anonymous

> 1. He resented Kim being promoted to manager.

Anonymous

7:08 PM

> 2. He resented Kim's being promoted to manager.

Anonymous

> 3. He resented Kim, after only two years, being promoted to manager.

Anonymous

> 4. *He resented Kim's, after only two years, being promoted to manager.

Anonymous

The other examples seem fine the way they are.

Anonymous

@Man_From_India For whatever reason, discussion of the point is spread out across a number of different sections, which you'll notice immediately if you look it up in the index :-) But the section on page 1192 is what I was thinking of.

Anonymous

7:26 PM

If anyone's interested in the arguments about the status of 's attaching to phrases, the authors of this paper present a good summary without adding any analysis or conclusions of their own: humanities.manchester.ac.uk/medialibrary/llc/files/possessives/…

Anonymous

It's just a short review of other publications on the topic

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English Language Learners