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2:17 PM
Hi everyone!
I'm thinking about deleting one of my answers:
0
A: Here "would have + past participle" construction is used to express an assumption or expectation about the past?

NicoThe first thing I would say about modal verbs is that their usage extends over many different contexts and so any general rules are bound to fail when taken out of context. Your question makes reference to the use of 'will' and 'would' to express certainty. Although 'will' and 'would' share this...

The original question has changed and the answer doesn't make sense there any longer. But before I do, I would appreciate if anyone could point out any obvious mistakes, or things I should avoid repeating.
 
I think this part is incorrect: I'm sure they will have been looking for those bank robbers.
> A: We saw a police helicopter yesterday morning.
B: I'm sure they will have been looking for those bank robbers.
The event already happened.
BRB in a few minutes.
> I'm sure they were looking for those bank robbers.
This is the basic form, if you're sure.
Because the (un)certainty has already been moved out from the subordinate clause, the tense in the subordinate clause should reflect the true event.
@snailboat I'm glad that you answered that infinitive question!
(I was gathering information in order to answer that question, but I don't have to answer it now. :-)
What a relief!
 
Anonymous
2:48 PM
Both would and will are possible in that sentence, though neither is necessary
 
Oh! Even when the event was in the past?
 
Anonymous
Will is felicitous if you believe they're still out there searching
 
And if they aren't?
 
Anonymous
What matters is your belief, not reality
 
I see. I took it as an event in the past.
But yes, it's possible.
Searching for a fugitive could be several days long.
 
Anonymous
2:51 PM
You obviously know about the bank robbers from an external source of information because you said those bank robbers
 
Anonymous
It's not a stretch to imagine that the search is ongoing if you haven't heard news of their capture yet
 
Now I can see that will is also possible.
 
Anonymous
But this all depends on context (hence "felicitous" rather than "grammatical")
 
Then again, I'm sure they will have been looking for those bank robbers yesterday. is not felicitous, I think.
 
Anonymous
3:10 PM
@DamkerngT. That would probably need since yesterday
 
nods -- Got it.
Another thing about the infinitive.
I'm surprised a little that you mentioned only: The same form of the verb is used in infinitive, subjunctive, and imperative constructions.
I wonder about work in "It can work" and "How does it work?"
 
Anonymous
Infinitive complement of modal auxiliary
 
I think a lot of grammar books would avoid saying that work there is an infinitive (or in the infinitive) because it could confuse the learners.
COBUILD simply uses the term "base form".
 
I got lost with "felicitous"
 
Anonymous
Felicitous = appropriate in context
 
3:14 PM
my dict says "exhibiting an agreeably appropriate manner or style"
 
Anonymous
Some things are grammatical, but may not always be appropriate
 
I think the senses are overlapped (between good and appropriate).
 
Anonymous
If you divide errors into grammatical, semantic, and pragmatic contexts, you get "ungrammatical", "nonsensical", and "infelicitous" respectively
 
so... all the felicitous things are grammatical, but not the other way around?
 
Anonymous
Although in real life the three categories are probably overlapping
 
Anonymous
3:16 PM
For example, think about a and the. Many sentences are grammatical regardless of which one you use, but in context usually only one or the other is appropriate.
 
ok, now I undersand why you saus "appropriate in context"
 
Anonymous
So when you change would to will, you get a grammatical sentence, but it may not be appropriate in the same contexts.
 
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. There's a couple points of theory there:
 
Anonymous
1. Is the auxiliary verb a dependent of the main verb? Or is it the other way around?
 
Anonymous
> 1. I like [ to walk ] .
> 2. I can [ walk ] .
 
Anonymous
3:19 PM
You can say like takes a to-infinitival complement, while can takes a bare infinitival complement.
 
Anonymous
You don't have to treat auxiliary verbs as special in this sense.
 
Anonymous
2. The distinction between forms and the uses of those forms: I would say it's the plain form, much like Collins would say base form
 
Anonymous
But I would says it's the plain form used as an infinitive (in an infinitival construction)
 
Anonymous
You don't have to say that. I see no reason not to, though
 
Anonymous
Alternatively, you can consider infinitive itself a specific form
 
Anonymous
3:22 PM
(As in traditional grammar)
 
@snailboat When I wrote that answer, I thought "would" was used to express a speculation, and "will" to express certainty. Does that make sense?
 
....I hate modal verbs.
 
I like them. They make imagination possible.
 
They are intriguing!
They are like a coin that shows a different face each time you flip it! :p
 
Anonymous
@Nico I took them both as expressing uncertainty, but would as expressing past time as well
 
3:24 PM
But I'm sure one can master how to flip the coin!
 
@Nico Like the totem in Inception? :-)
 
Anonymous
> 1a. I'm sure they have been looking for those bank robbers.
> 1b. I'm sure they will have been looking for those bank robbers.
> 2a. I'm sure they had been looking for those bank robbers.
> 2b. I'm sure they would have been looking for those bank robbers.
 
@snailboat OK, so I think I should remove my answer, at least until I'm able to understand how to correct it
 
Whose totem in Inception is a coin?
 
Anonymous
The B variants are similar to the A variants, but less certain--they're expressing fairly confident speculation, but the speaker doesn't know that what they're saying is correct, they just believe it's pretty likely (presumption)
 
3:26 PM
Haven't watched Inception. :(
 
Anonymous
So the modal auxiliaries there have to do with the speaker's lack of information
 
@Fantasier Nope. I wish it could be a coin if I were in the movie. :-)
 
Anonymous
In other contexts, other meanings would be possible
 
Anonymous
Like, in another context, "I'm sure they will have been" could be a statement about a state continued until a point in the future
 
@snailboat That's a very neat example.
 
Anonymous
3:28 PM
And in another context, "I'm sure they would have been" could be counterfactual (like, "I'm sure they would have been looking for those bank robbers [if they had any manpower to spare]")
 
Anonymous
And so on.
 
Anonymous
@Fantasier Me too. I usually avoid answering questions about them :-)
 
the totem is still spinning ...
 
@snailboat I now have a lot to ask about them, but I keep them in a corner of my mind until I have a chance to read and finish the issue on a reference grammar; after that I may have the answers for myself without having to ask.
 
I did that a lot on my own/by myself/alone.
 
Anonymous
3:33 PM
@Fantasier Sure. I think modal verbs are hard for most learners, although of course it depends on how similar it is to your L1
 
Anonymous
Though that goes for everything in language learning--no language is harder or easier than another in a vacuum, it's all relative to what language(s) you already speak
 
I'm not sure I totally agree with that.
 
@snailboat I was about to edit my answer with your ideas and J.R. just vote for it. I still think your explanation makes sense.
 
Not that I really disagree.
 
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Think of how hard Thai would be for a speaker of Lao versus a speaker of English
 
3:35 PM
... (thinking)
 
Anonymous
Or Japanese for a speaker of Korean versus a speaker of French
 
@snailboat I mean the "in a vacuum" part.
 
Anonymous
The only language learning you do in a vacuum is L1, and everyone manages to learn their L1.
 
We have something that needs to learn any language in a vacuum.
 
Anonymous
There are extralinguistic concerns that are harder in one language or another, like writing systems, for example
 
3:37 PM
nods
 
My あ looks like rubbish.
 
Ah.
 
Well, my handwriting is never good in any language.
 
You sound like a good doctor!
 
Anonymous
Keep with it. Write out the whole fifty-sounds chart every day until you can do it from memory. It's okay if your handwriting isn't super neat
 
3:39 PM
I'll try!
@DamkerngT. Quite close, my parents are dentists.
 
Wow!
 
Anonymous
I used to tell people to start by adding one row of kana each day: day one, write あいうえお, day two write あいうえお and かきくけこ, and so on. Keep doing it until you've got the chart so far memorized, then stop, add 5 new flashcards (on 3x5" note cards), and quiz yourself on recognition.
 
Anonymous
Some people try to cram all the kana in a day or two, or use Anki, or whatever method they like.
 
Hey, I can tell 2 out of 10!
 
Anonymous
Ultimately it doesn't matter since there's only a few kana, and if you use them every day learning them shouldn't be much of an issue regardless of method, since you'll see them millions upon millions of times
 
3:41 PM
Now I can guess all 10.
 
I see.
 
Anonymous
(Methods for stuff like this matter more for students who have difficulty learning to read and write. Most students can make do with any old approach :-)
 
Kanji would be more challenging.
 
Anonymous
Yes, for a number of reasons
 
Oh, now, even FF answers an etymology question!
 
3:49 PM
They repeated themself.
On the first sentence.
 
Good chart!
 
Looks like my infinitely improbably drive is still having its chances!
However infinitesimally possible!
dancing for the drive...
┏(--)┛┗(-- )┓┗(--)┛┏(--)┓
 

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