« first day (1831 days earlier)      last day (2840 days later) » 

Rory Alsop
Rory Alsop
12:10 AM
I see my Brexit answer from Feb has suddenly started getting upvotes again :-) Maybe I should have also started posting more over on ExPats...wonder how easily I can move to Australia...
 
 
1 hour later…
Berwyn
Berwyn
1:37 AM
"A major priority will be to secure guarantees over the £600m of EU funding the region is due to receive to help grow Yorkshire’s economy between now and 2020."
So they vote out, and want a guarantee they'll get the same money after voluntarily giving it up
 
Jan
Jan
A clear case of biting the hand that's feeding you.
 
Berwyn
Berwyn
Indeed
No doubt they'll soon be googling "why no more EU money in yorkshire?"
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
Yeah Wales also voted out and is now suddenly concerned about the EU development funds they get
 
Berwyn
Berwyn
It's all absurd
Cameron should just go and hang himself for doing this
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
1:55 AM
it's a mess. the tories are falling apart at the seams and labour is doing what the left always does in such situations, which is get dragged down in infighting
the incredible part for me was Farage admitting the 350M line was a load of nonsense. He went on TV at like 6am just after the vote was in and completely renounced a basic premise of the leave campaign
 
Berwyn
Berwyn
it's pure comedy
normally politicians take years to admit they've been lieing
 
Jan
Jan
True that. If I wasn't European, I'ld grab popcorn and sit back.
 
Berwyn
Berwyn
this time they do it the day after they win
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
exactly. it took all of two hours or so
 
Berwyn
Berwyn
Boris Johnson's "we love the EU, and will always be part of it" the day afterwards too
 
Jan
Jan
1:59 AM
@Berwyn Waitwot?
 
Berwyn
Berwyn
I'll see if I can find it
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
people kept saying "leave has no plan" and everyone was all "no these are smart powerful people; they must have some sort of plan I'm sure" and it took two damn hours to realize they had no plan whatsoever
 
Berwyn
Berwyn
3:30 for 1 minute or so
 
Heidel Ber Gensis
Heidel Ber Gensis
2:14 AM
@Berwyn isn't this guy a turkish?
 
Berwyn
Berwyn
Don't think so
 
Jan
Jan
The shadow of the guy's head is somewhat distracting o.o
 
Heidel Ber Gensis
Heidel Ber Gensis
@Berwyn yes he is. just checked..
his grandfather is turkish..
ottoman actually..
 
Berwyn
Berwyn
Never knew that
 
Jan
Jan
Fancy finding the speech on Russia Today's Youtube channel. Speaking of which, did Putin react and if so, how?
 
Heidel Ber Gensis
Heidel Ber Gensis
2:18 AM
@Berwyn but the name got lost..
thats his grandfather..
Ali Kemal
Ali Kemal Bey (1867 – 6 November 1922) was a liberal Ottoman journalist, newspaper editor, and poet who was for some three months Minister of the Interior in the government of Damat Ferid Pasha, Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire. He was murdered during the Turkish War of Independence. Kemal Bey is the paternal grandfather of the British politician Stanley Johnson and great-grandfather of the former Mayor of London Boris Johnson, British Member of Parliament Jo Johnson, and journalist Rachel Johnson. == Life and career == Ali Kemal's mother was a Circassian, reputedly of slave origin. Ali Kemal...
guys you are ruined.. lol
out of the EU, a turkish PM... whats next?
 
Berwyn
Berwyn
THere are always others far worse off than us. Imagine getting Trump as president
 
Heidel Ber Gensis
Heidel Ber Gensis
true that
@Berwyn whats next man? joining the islamic league? hahahahahahahahahahahaha
sorry but it is funny, to me at least
 
Berwyn
Berwyn
Ask about it and people would probably vote yes. Then google what it is afterwards
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
2:47 AM
at least the UK can still stay in eurovision
 
Jan
Jan
But with Australia participating in Eurovision it really doesn't serve as a pro-Europe argument anymore …
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
true, it's become a touch meaningless. Morocco was even in it once
so it's not even Europeish+Commonwealth
 
chx
chx
I lost all my faith in humanity
even in /r/canada people are endorsing brexit
i would've hoped Canadians have more brains than that
 
Jan
Jan
You know what the problems in that were?
'Faith in humanity' and 'X has/have more brains than that'.
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
I think it's reddit users who are missing the brains, not Canadians as a whole
 
chx
chx
2:58 AM
Let's hope
I very much would like to see a quick referendum on becoming a republic and severing ties with UK
Just to show our opinion, you know.
 
Jan
Jan
But Canada doesn't pay £300m a week to be in the Commonwealth, does it?
So you can't put that money into the Canadian NHS, so there's no basis!
Sorry, getting into the wrong mood, better be off ;)
 
chx
chx
I seriously think a solidarity vote with the sane half of the world would do good
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/…: "It’s a town with almost no immigrants that voted to get the immigrants out. A town that has been showered with EU cash that no longer wants to be part of the EU."
 
chx
chx
3:27 AM
LOL
 
 
4 hours later…
Gayot Fow
Gayot Fow
7:37 AM
4
Q: Recreating Hemingway's Trip to Pamplona (Part 1)

Gayot FowIn about three weeks one of Europe's most widely known events will take place: the legendary running of the bulls in Pamlona, or known locally as the "Fiesta de San Fermín". The city is famous worldwide for the running of the bulls during the San Fermín festival, which is held annually from J...

spain where-on-earth pilgrimages fishing pamplona
bounty 50
I need to get Part 2 done before the month is out
 
 
1 hour later…
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
8:40 AM
@ZachLipton the premise of the article is ridiculous, since the UK pays more into the EU than it gets back. Hence they could've gotten the same amount of investment without ever being a member
Whether or not London would have invested as much money into Wales is a different question, but simply claiming that 'No EU = No money for Wales' is outrageous
Even in countries such as Czech Republic (which get more money out of the system) there are lots of absolutely useless EU projects, such as cycling paths which lead to nowhere
or multi-million art installations
and other stuff which was only created because the local municipality needed to spend EU money
not because they've really needed it
Not to mention the negative effect of EU grants on the free market
Of course, a lot of great things have been built (including a metro extension), which was great for the country
But I don't agree with the Wales argument
@ZachLipton The '350m to NHS is a lie!' argument is also slightly fallacious. Yes, buses claiming that '350m can be spent on NHS' were a lie because the UK gets some money back from the EU
But no, leaving the EU could indeed increase the NHS budget, depending on how the 'saved' money is allocated
I would've voted for 'Remain' myself if I was a British citizen, but the amount of ridiculous fallacies from 'my' side is astonishing
 
 
1 hour later…
Willeke
Willeke
10:22 AM
I fear that most of the money not paid to the EU for years to come will be needed to build replacement services for those things now handled by the EU, and to building a stronger police and border guard service as the leave voters will insist on kicking and keeping those unwanted immigrants out. And or receiving and housing expats being send home from elsewhere.
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
11:16 AM
@Willeke If I remember correctly, most UK citizens living in the EU are pensioners. Hence bringing them back would actually return a lot of money into the economy.

However it's much more likely for the UK to lock the status quo, rather than demand everyone to return.

As for border guard, they were outside the Schengen area anyway. Nothing would change.
 
Willeke
Willeke
I bet there will be a whole 'coastal' guard along the narrow bit of the channel, maybe along all of the south/east coast.
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
"refugees" try cross the channel nowadays anyway. not much will change in that aspect
I don't think they will seriously guard against French citizens...
 
Willeke
Willeke
11:53 AM
Just posted the latest (and maybe last) bounty, I have two that need validation.
 
 
4 hours later…
Jan
Jan
4:12 PM
@JonathanReez Feeling the need to post the BBC reality check that clearly says only £276m a week are actually sent to the EU.
> The first thing to be aware of is the £350m a week figure includes the rebate, money we never actually send to the EU.
 
Berwyn
Berwyn
Why do people feel there should be no net contribution to the EU?
Is it supposed to be some sort of free to enter club?
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
4:33 PM
@Jan in any case, nobody can deny that the UK sends more to the EU than it receives in rebates. Nothing would stop a theoretical government from sending that money to the NHS
@Berwyn I would argue that the UK won from being a member by reducing the costs of doing business with the continent
But otherwise, I don't agree that countries should be obligated to support poor members of the block
 
Willeke
Willeke
@Berwyn, I feel that the main wins out of the EU are from trade and from benefits that we are not even able to express in money values as peace and ease of travel.
The Netherlands have been a net payer to the EU for quite a while, but we do not complain bitterly as some do.
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
4:48 PM
We must also keep in mind that not everyone is a journalist, IT personnel, engineer, doctor, etc. The bottom 50% was hit a lot by having to compete with workers from the Eastern block
In the US, real wages haven't grown since 1973 - a lot of which is explained by high levels of immigration and outsourcing thanks to reduced tarrifs
 
Jan
Jan
@JonathanReez That's true.
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
I think EU's big mistake was allowing free movement from members post-2004 so early. Restricting it for a couple of decades would allow levels of development to equal out
 
Willeke
Willeke
I think the mistake was to add so many countries at one time.
And worse to add on the poorer side of the continent while not getting the rich countries left.
And to countries to be half in, not joining in the passport union and currency.
 
Rory Alsop
Rory Alsop
5:50 PM
@JonathanReez I totally disagree with that point. We absolutely should support weaker members as long as they abide by a certain code of conduct - together we can be far stronger
The thing that needed doing for us was not to leave the EU, but remain and push for change and development of how the EU works
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
6:10 PM
I go to sleep and wake up to someone advising a user to buy a super old car and intentionally crash it into a wall???
-7
A: How to deal with a fear of driving?

manav m-nYour fear is very much real, but it's real roots is in your emotional imagination: what will happen in a crash, how car impact break bones, how it feels to get burned in gasoline, how much a car weighs when it rolls over your face, etc., etc. While counseling can help you marginally, the best so...

 
Relaxed
Relaxed
@JonathanReez You might as well say that the mistake was the enlargement itself
If you delay the most substantial aspects of EU integration for some decades, what does being a member mean?
And so far, convergence is well below what was expected on all levels
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
@Relaxed Free trade, free movement of capital, single law base, single agricultural program, being a part of the trade block in negotiations with other countries, etc.
The Eastern countries would be free to move for work between their own block + optionally admit Western employees
in 20 years the level of salaries would level out and they'd open the borders completely
 
Relaxed
Relaxed
6:26 PM
@JonathanReez Free movement includes most of that and you can't tear apart free movement for persons from the other three freedoms that easily
And there has been no shortage of complaints about free movement for goods or services (remember the famous cliché about the Polish plumber)
Anyway, what you propose is not so far from the kind of agreements Turkey is gradually getting
It's not membership
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
doesn't a two-tier system like that just lead to something like NAFTA, where the manufacturing jobs all go to the cheaper countries and the wealthier countries don't get the economic benefits of immigrants in return?
 
Relaxed
Relaxed
And like I said, convergence was the hope but at this point it looks like wishful thinking
Pretty much, yes
That's not to say I completely disagree, enlargement has made many things more difficult
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
@ZachLipton the UK (as is any other EU country) is free to accept cheap labour from any country in the world, the EU doesn't stop them in this regard
as long-term visas are not regulated
 
Relaxed
Relaxed
And the EU could have offered support, including market access and structural programs, without membership, like it currently does in the Balkan or in Turkey
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
as for the NAFTA problem - the UK now has both - immigrants reduce the level of wages, and factories move abroad
I agree, @Relaxed. A Turkey-kind-of deal would make more sense in this scenario
 
Relaxed
Relaxed
6:30 PM
There is precious little evidence for any significant effect on wages across the board
And you can't have both to the same extent, because they kind of cancel out
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
I couldn't find any long-term statistics for the UK, but in the US real wages haven't increased since 1973
 
Relaxed
Relaxed
Yes but who is to say that this has anything to do with immigration?
That's related to Zach's point as well
If you only have free movement of goods, it makes sense to expect offshoring to be even stronger
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
I've seen analysis which shown that immigrants increase the level of GDP, but not about the effect of immigration on the income of the bottom 50%
 
Relaxed
Relaxed
Pressure on wages are just as strong (you're competing with workers living in their own countries, where wages are not even constrained by cost of life or regulations at home)
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
And yes, it would probably have made more sense to just restrict free trade to developed countries and hike tarriffs on everyone else. Assuming the goal was to maintain high wages
 
Relaxed
Relaxed
6:35 PM
And to the extent that wages really did decrease in some industries, this would generally make offshoring less attractive
@JonathanReez Whatever the case may be, note that if it happened in the US, it's an argument for (and not against) freedom of movement for workers
Simply because the US does not have anything like that
So it means it would have been likely to happen in the UK as well if it never joined the EU
Freedom of movement for persons really has many side effects, one of them is allowing immigrants to move up freely.
On some US visas, even for very qualified employees, you're basically dependent on your employer, you can't transfer to another one without restarting the paperwork from scratch.
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
Assuming a free-trade deal - then yes, free movement might have been beneficial. Assuming they wanted to lock-in the wages - both are harmful.

And of course freedom of trade helps the GDP, if we're talking of economic theory
 
Relaxed
Relaxed
I came across an interesting poll
(about the UK)
Most of the respondents believed their personal situation and the economy as a whole benefited from free movement for persons
But they thought the NHS and public services suffered a lot
Forgetting that EU migrants are, on average, younger, more educated and more likely to contribute to the system than not
In that case, just as with wages in some sectors, the problems are real but due to the UK's own politics, nothing else
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
At least here in Czech Republic those who are paid below a certain level contribute nothing to the NHS-equivalent. Isn't it the same in the UK?
So a "polish plumber" would actually contribute nothing except VAT and minimum tax
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
indeed, because the NHS and public services have suffered a great deal from austerity, which is entirely domestic policy
20% VAT is hardly contributing nothing
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
if the NHS budget is structured from social security payments - then it's nothing
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
6:44 PM
we have that argument in the US a lot: all these people pay no taxes. Well some may not pay federal income tax, but they pay sales tax, they pay property tax (perhaps indirectly through their rent), they pay corporate taxes (indirectly through the profit on the goods and services they buy)
 
Relaxed
Relaxed
@JonathanReez I assume it's the same in most countries
But it depends on how much that certain level is
In the Netherlands, it's a five-hours a week job on minimum wage or something like that
(I am too lazy to look it up but I would think that even a full-time minimum wage makes you a net contributor)
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
Up to 1000 pounds per month is tax free
 
Relaxed
Relaxed
Anyway, I vaguely recall some stats looking at that with respect to the UK and finding a net contribution, certainly for immigration as a whole
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
Which is around what minimum wage is
 
Relaxed
Relaxed
(Not sure there was any EU/non-EU split)
@JonathanReez Your link is about income tax incidentally. I think in the UK, funding for the NHS comes from the general budget so as @ZachLipton explained VAT is very relevant
In the Netherlands to take another example, income tax starts higher but health insurance and pensions contributions do not
In fact the first two withholding brackets have exactly the same rate
 
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
6:56 PM
found a link
apparently it's inconclusive, but the costs are not significant
so the Leavers are wrong
 
Relaxed
Relaxed
It sounds stupid at first but it is that way because what's withheld is not the same thing: on the first x0000 € you pay almost no income tax but only contributions to the safety net, on the next x0000 € you start paying income tax
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
and the flip side is that UK pensioners can go live in Spain and get their health care from them, keeping them off the NHS books (the downside is that said pensioners aren't contributing to the UK economy either, and moneyed old folks are a nice thing to have for the economy). There's some mostly incomplete data on this here: fullfact.org/europe/…
 
Zach Lipton
Zach Lipton
7:48 PM
also, it's one study, but: What have the immigrants ever done for us? economist.com/news/britain/…
 
Jan
Jan
7:58 PM
 
 
3 hours later…
Heidel Ber Gensis
Heidel Ber Gensis
10:52 PM
@zach thanks for the typo correction.. I was reading it "expedite" the whole time.. Don't know why
 

« first day (1831 days earlier)      last day (2840 days later) »