Agama and Tantra - 2017-04-25

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4:25 AM

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Q: Why does the Todala Tantra prohibit worshiping Nilakantha in the Kali Yuga?

Just like Vaishnavas follow Pancharatra Agamas and Shaivites follow Shaiva Agamas, Shakta follow Shakta Agamas, aka Shakta Tantras. (I discuss an exception that proves the rule here.) One such Shakta Agama is the Todala Tantra. In Patala 5 of the Todala Tantra, Shiva tells Parvati about methods...

mythology shiva shaivism agamas shaktism

5:21 AM

@RakeshJoshi What?? I was only talking about asanas being part of hinduism.. Context was HathYoga...

I don't have Todala Tantram . So i can't answer the question without studying that Text fully.

@Rickross looks like interpolation. How can Shiva himself say Nilakanta can't be worshiped?

5:58 AM

@TheDestroyer I can't say. Need to study the Text first. I think Shiva is saying worshiping him in the Nilakhantha form is not recommended in Kali Yuga.

@TheDestroyer Todala tantram is not available with my publisher too. So need to check elsewhere for this book.

@Rickross Yeah. May be only Nilakanta form or Saguna form. But almost everywhere Shiva is worshiped as Linga.

To be precise, Rudra or Shankara is Nilakanta, as per Shiva Purana.

@TheDestroyer Here Lord Shiva is saying not to take Nilakantha mantra in Kali. That can be true. One can still take other Shiva mantras like Rudra, Mrityunjaya , Shankara.

@Rickross Yeah. Could be not recommended

@Rickross Yeah.

@TheDestroyer In Tantra there is a difference. There are several Chakradi calculations done before giving/taking Mantras. For example, suppose someone's name is XYZ can he take Kali mantra? Can he take Shiva mantra? Rudra Mantras? in this case calculations are done based on the first varnas of the recepients name and Deity names. And since Nilakantha begins with N Rudra begins with Ra calculations may vary.

@Rickross ohh ok.. I think that passage is take out of context.

6:09 AM

@TheDestroyer Yes we need to study the whole text. Otherwise we can't know why?

@Rickross And moreover, Agamas have esoteric meaning. We should also know proper meaning.

@TheDestroyer Yes that's also true.

@RakeshJoshi Can u answer the latest Jyotisha question? It was asked by sv. i think it can be answered.

1 hour later…

7:41 AM

@Rickross i will try to answer about astrology

5 hours later…

12:19 PM

Similarly, Chanakya is said to have taken an oath to leave his śikhā untied until he humbles the Nanda kings who insulted him. Taken from wikipedia. How Chanakya used to perform Vedic karmas without Shikha tied for so many years? Is there a shortcut available? @RakeshJoshi

12:56 PM

@Rickross he was a woman abuser.

3 hours later…

3:42 PM

@RakeshJoshi You don't leave anyone..

really man see his views .. find yoursel

4:03 PM

@RakeshJoshi No i am asking with sikha untied how did he do daily and other karmas for so many years? What is that shortcut?

@RakeshJoshi Whom did he abuse?

@Rickross see his remarks on women

@RakeshJoshi Ok.

BTW the darsana of Shaiva & Shakta agamas is Advaita only. @RakeshJoshi

@Rickross bheema took a vow for revenge to wet draupadi's hair with dushasana blood

@RakeshJoshi Yes so?

does that mean its hindu custom that kshatriyas should do it ?

4:11 PM

@RakeshJoshi No of course not.

if chanakya took some vow out of revenge then it should not be equated with vedic people

@RakeshJoshi Revenge is a revenge. Not recommended. Just today i answered a Q on revenge and punishment.

so if he took some vow out of revenge it should not represent common notion

what u were saying about agama ?

@RakeshJoshi No i am not concerned about his revenge. Without sikha tied can a brahmin do rituals? Then how he used to do them?

he dont represent brahmins that what i m saying

brahmins are doing rape so will u say like that ? dont judge general people with these

4:17 PM

@RakeshJoshi The darsana of Shaiva and Shakta agamas is monism (Advaita). They destroy all notions of Dvaita. Then how can u even talk about or quote Dvaita acharyas?

@RakeshJoshi Ohk

@Rickross there are dual , semi dual and non dual agamas (tantra)

which dwaita acharya u talking about ?

@RakeshJoshi Which ones are different from advita? Which Tantras?

@RakeshJoshi Madhava must be.

??

whats wrong in quoting madhwa

@RakeshJoshi He propounded dvaita. And you are a Sri Vidya devotee. Both don't go together.

i have also quoted him that dont mean i follow him

for you there is no space for dwaita people in agama ?

4:21 PM

@RakeshJoshi Not at least in Shaiva & Shakta agamas.

1

Q: Hindu astrology and the timing of birth

The Skeptic's Dictionary while arguing that astrology is nothing more than a superstition brings up some interesting questions: Astrologers emphasize the importance of the positions of the Sun, Moon, planets, etc., at the time of birth. However, the birthing process isn’t instantaneous. There...

astrology time superstitions birth

then it will mean these are not for common for lay person

@RakeshJoshi Which Tantras talk about the notion of dualism? Name few.

The above Q must be easy for u to answer? @RakeshJoshi

The Agama texts of Hinduism present a diverse range of philosophies, ranging from theistic dualism to absolute monism.[13][28] This diversity of views was acknowledged in Chapter 36 of Tantraloka, the 10th century scholar Abhinavagupta.[13] In Shaivism alone, there are ten dualistic (dvaita) Agama texts, eighteen qualified monism-cum-dualism (bhedabheda) Agama texts and sixty four monism (advaita) Agama texts.[29] The Bhairava Shastras are monistic, while Shiva Shastras are dualistic.

BTW i read on google that Joshi came from Jyotishi is that true? @RakeshJoshi

@RakeshJoshi Oh which is the book u are quoting from?

@Rickross i had a blog where different times like first cry first breath or when full body cmes out .. it was given with verses .

quoting from wiki

4:25 PM

Ok

@RakeshJoshi Kularnava NSA both talk about Advaita. BTW in Atharva Veda there are mantras that clearly say that the Brahman has entered our bodies.

Srikantha (ca 1050) formulated Shiva Vishishtadvaita.[citation needed] In this theology, Atman (soul) is not identical with Brahman, but shares with the Supreme all excellent qualities. Appaya Dikshita (1554–1626), an Advaita scholar, proposed pure monism, and his ideas influenced Shaiva in the Karnataka region.[citation needed]

even taitariya says so

if you find that blog which quotes parashara about birth time then it will be easy to answer

@RakeshJoshi You mean the Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra talks about birth time?

i think so .. not very surely remember

shiro darshana
bhu patana etc

BTW did you see my comments on that question in reply to keshav

I have link to BPHS

ok

4:32 PM

astrojyoti.com/bphspage1.htm

This is PDF. shenjiva.com/Vedic/BrihatParasaraHora.pdf

@RakeshJoshi No which Q? Arsenic?

astrology birth time

Ok. Checking. BTW sv's Q has 3 sub questions.

Yes saw. His comments are very wrong.

:)

now understood how come he read so many texts ??? :)

hmmm

I think we should not read too many things. But i can't resist Tantra books. Matrika Bheda, Sharada Tilak.. looks alluring.. :)

I just upvoted sv's Q. The Q is good.

4

Q: Is 'Why is there suffering?' a valid question according to Advaita philosophy?

Richard Dawkins in this debate argues that, in science, asking a question such as 'Why we exist?' or 'Why is there suffering in this world?' are not meaningful questions in the same sense as 'Why do mountains exist?', 'What is the color of jealousy?' etc. which cannot be answered objectively. Ho...

philosophy advaita life atheism

What is interesting in the above Q? @RakeshJoshi

just that it questions advaita

see the arguments in the comments moved to chat

4:45 PM

Ok. So advaita can't explain this Q?

when there is no creation who is there to suffer ?

'Why do mountains exist?'..... Why it is unanswerable?

@RakeshJoshi Shakta agamas' darsan is advaita but they talk about creation.. So there are various kinds of advaita?

he is talking of vedanta only

@RakeshJoshi Please. Advaita can answer that.

I don't think the term adviata has anything to do with no creation. That may be peculiar to one particular sub-system?

4:49 PM

@RakeshJoshi Do you really feel there is no creation. There is no creation for realized not for everyone.

one upasaka told me that shakta is darshana ...

sri vidya is not darshana

@TheDestroyer yes advaita means relaized state na .. oneness

@RakeshJoshi Yeah. But how many people are realized? How can we talk or consider about Absolute state?

it is already understood when we talk we talk from advaita point of view not dwaitist

@Rickross is it bhauma amavasya + ashwini now ?? as mentioned in devi ashtottara?

durga

@RakeshJoshi Dwaita mean not unrealized.

so when we will talk of dwaita we will talk from their perspective

@TheDestroyer you cant say them non realized .. it will be offensive statement

they have different type of realization

4:53 PM

@Rickross Yes. There are various kinds of Advaita.

all realization are subjective

@RakeshJoshi No. I didn't say they are unrealized.

ok sorry.

@RakeshJoshi Today is Revati chaturdashi .

but i did not say them unrealized too

when did revati end ?

@Rickross

4:56 PM

Around 10 at night. It already ended.

so now what is going on ?

@RakeshJoshi In Dwaita, Jiva and Brahman exists as separate entities after realization.

yes when did i deny that? @TheDestroyer

Yes chaturdashi is also over now. Now its Amavasya and aswini. @RakeshJoshi

:) and bhauma too ?

as promised it will be in the midnight right ? :)

4:57 PM

@Rickross Yes. Yesterday is Pradosham.

@RakeshJoshi Yes looks like

its rare combo dear... you can do that prayoga if you wish .. you can write down in the paper.

and let your friends also know about it

OK

@TheDestroyer Yes.

Ok good night @TheDestroyer @RakeshJoshi

@Rickross As per Kashmir Shaivism, after realization we become Shiva and Shiva has attributes. Creation and destruction of Universe are Sports of Shiva-Shakti. But as per Shankara Advaita, even process of creation and destruction is temporary and Nirguna Brahman alone is real.

Shankara alludes exact relationship between Maya and Brahman can't be find logically.

BTW when is Rohit coming back from that course?

5:05 PM

Both are Advaita only.

@Rickross he is back but not yuet active in SE

will come soon

@TheDestroyer Ok. But both these theories are very much man made right?

@RakeshJoshi Ok

@Rickross ohh..why do you think like that?

@TheDestroyer when creatrion is an eternal cycle how can you call it temporary ?

its an ongoing process @Rickross

@TheDestroyer I am just asking are not they man made theories? Or am i missing something?

5:06 PM

@Rickross Adi Shankara interpreted Upanishads in that way.

is there any limit that creation will happen for fixed number of times?

@TheDestroyer Ok. Then that will called man made only. Because more acharyas more interpretations.

@Rickross All philosophies are different interpretations of Vedas.

@TheDestroyer Yes that i know.

@Rickross ohh ok in that sense. We don't know which one is exact interpretation or true meanings of Vedas.

5:08 PM

@TheDestroyer And Adi Shankara's philsophy is a subset of vedanta.

@TheDestroyer madhwa and ramanuja also interperet upanishad in a drastically differtent manner

further, upanishad dont explicitly mention such things... number of times they mention world is real ... world is created

not even once they say world is falose or unreal

this will mean vedas were written by dualists with dualistic mindset?

if not whjy not even once such important topic was said ?

@RakeshJoshi We are not discussing whether Advaita is true or not.

when creation is an eternal process how can you say its temporary ?

@RakeshJoshi Changing things can't be real.

@RakeshJoshi May be Rohit can answer these Qs after that course .

5:09 PM

why u need him to answer ?

that course is not related to this

@RakeshJoshi You can even check that in real life.

@TheDestroyer enternal thing is real or unreal ?

@RakeshJoshi After meditation he will be enlightened somewhat. So he can.. may be i mean.

D

@RakeshJoshi could be anything. But Changing things are not real.

@Rickross we people are not coming from pubs and bars dear :)

5:10 PM

haha

un real and unchanging are different words

but still respect the little saint Rohit

@RakeshJoshi You are mimamsaka . I think you like them.

:P

like whom ?

@RakeshJoshi pubs and bars. :P

5:11 PM

if sankara had to say creation is not eternal then he would say anitya or somthing

no i dont have any addiction or habits so far :)

@RakeshJoshi good. But why were you supporting Mandana Mishra.

@RakeshJoshi So u may have in future?

but i think drunkards talk good philosophy with good vairagya :P

cos mandana mishra followed vedic life

leaving now.

@RakeshJoshi Even Shankara followed Upanishads which are part of vedas.

@Rickross ok. Bye Gn.

@RakeshJoshi Ok. Bye! We will discuss later.

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