Japanese Language - 2014-10-31 (page 2 of 2)

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Anonymous

5:05 PM

Martin doesn't list very many. He lists this stuff in section 3.12, starting on page 272. On page 276, he lists the involuntary transitive punctuals 失う and 忘れる, along with positive 知る as transitive but "perhaps involuntary", and 分かる in its punctual meaning (as in 分かっている), which some speakers have started to use with を instead of が.

Darius Jahandarie

Hmm. I think there's also the accusative-quotative verbs like 思う.

Anonymous

5:30 PM

In English, I habitually use italics for mention and "quotes" for meaning

Anonymous

japanese.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/3782

Anonymous

Here we're using quotes for both, which is okay...

Anonymous

If it were my own post, I think I wouldn't bother with quotes for mention when it's in a different script because I think the distinction is obvious already

Anonymous

Like in this answer:

Anonymous

5

A: How do I write "Hard Work and Smart Work"?

重労働 usually means “hard physical work,” so it is not appropriate here unless you are talking about physical work. Also, some people may have difficulty understanding what スマートな労働 means at all, because スマート used to mean “slender” instead of “smart.” (But this may not be a big problem anymore bec...

Anonymous

5:37 PM

Bare Japanese writing for mention and quotes for meaning work well, I think

Anonymous

I don't think adding quotes to this answer would improve it

Darius Jahandarie

6:03 PM

Dunno. I use quotes around Japanese when I mention it, because I don't use quotes around Japanese when I use it. "The 連用形 of 「行く」 is 「行き」." I quote meaning as well, since I think it's mention.

(Or at least, this is what I try to do.)

Anonymous

In that context the quotes help.

Anonymous

But I think in Tsuyoshi Ito's answer, linked above, the quotes would be unnecessary

Anonymous

> When an English word is used as an intensifier, it loses its literal meaning. Originally, very meant "truly" (like verity, verify, verily, and so on), but now we can say very tasty ("tasty to a great degree").

Anonymous

Using italics and quotes like this is pretty common in discussions of English

Anonymous

I think you lose something if you use the same convention for both (quotes)

Anonymous

6:08 PM

But meh.

Darius Jahandarie

I tend to use italics rather than quotes when I'm mentioning romanized Japanese morphemes.

Just because "-ta" looks awful compared to -ta.

Anonymous

Me too. And quotes for glosses.

Darius Jahandarie

I wish there were a way to link to questions and answers which automatically pulled their titles as the link text.

Anonymous

> Sir-u 'acquires knowledge of' is transitive but perhaps involuntary, and ...

Anonymous

When Martin romanizes verbs like sir-u, he indicates the morpheme boundary before -(r)u with a hyphen only when it's ambiguous, as in i-ru versus ir-u. Other words he just writes like iku

Anonymous

6:12 PM

I'm not really in the habit of romanizing Japanese verbs to begin with

Anonymous

So I don't have an established practice with respect to that...

Darius Jahandarie

Hmm. I mainly just indicate the morpheme boundaries that are relevant to whatever I'm talking about.

Anonymous

Well, he only indicates the distinction between vowel-stem and consonant-stem like this when listing a verb in citation form

Anonymous

Some linguists write sir- instead

Darius Jahandarie

Ah, I see.

Anonymous

6:15 PM

But the sir- style always seemed less accessible to me

Darius Jahandarie

Yeah.

I think I'd use sir- if I was writing a paper or something, but I don't think I'd use it on this site.

What are your thoughts on omow-?

Anonymous

i- contracts to - following -te　　←　　This amuses me

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie Seems like a good technical description

Darius Jahandarie

hanas-i-te--ru?

Anonymous

That is, if you have in mind the rules that /w/ drops before /i u e o/

Darius Jahandarie

6:17 PM

Right. I usually don't both with that unless I want to either be anal about things for some reason, or talk about 音便.

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie I read once that second-generation speakers of Japanese that don't attend Japanese schools tend to natively acquire ～てる and ～てます and have to be taught later that they're considered short forms of ～ている and ～ています

Anonymous

Etc.

Darius Jahandarie

Neat.

I do think their usages are pretty distinct.

Like, if you actually include the い when you're talking out loud, it is definitely quite noticeable, at least to me.

I'm trying to get used to actually using proper romanization rather than the crap I usually type.

I still mess up on things like "tyo" though.

Anonymous

I try to use a romanization scheme that is appropriate to the task at hand, if I'm romanizing

Darius Jahandarie

I just mean when I'm typing.

Anonymous

6:21 PM

Oh!

Anonymous

I type whatever's shortest

Anonymous

So I tend to type j instead of zy

Anonymous

But I type ti instead of chi

Darius Jahandarie

What about tyo vs cho?

Anonymous

I think I usually type tyo

Anonymous

6:23 PM

A year or two ago I finally got in the habit of typing n' instead of nn

Darius Jahandarie

I just can't imagine typing taichou as taityou.

Yeah, ditching nn was the best thing ever.

Anonymous

Typing taityou seems natural to me

Darius Jahandarie

Weird.

Anonymous

I have seen a lot of phonemic romanization

Anonymous

Things like tyotto don't faze me :-)

Darius Jahandarie

6:24 PM

tyoQto

Anonymous

Oh, I do type ふ as fu rather than hu most of the time

Anonymous

I want a little Q

Anonymous

I don't like giant Q

Anonymous

Unfortunately, Q is one of the few characters there's no Unicode small caps equivalent for

Darius Jahandarie

Well, when two big Qs get together...

Anonymous

6:27 PM

I like being able to type siɴziru and toʜkyoʜ

Darius Jahandarie

Hah, ʜ kills me there.

Anonymous

Japanese phonologists use /N/ and /Q/ and /H/

Anonymous

Some use /R/ instead of /H/, which breaks my brain

Darius Jahandarie

Is the /H/ suppose to stand for something?

Anonymous

Well, you know how it's pretty common for people to write 佐藤 as Satoh, like on business cards?

Darius Jahandarie

6:29 PM

Oh, hah.

Anonymous

I think it's an extension of that sort of dealie

Anonymous

And it lets you posit a ʜ morpheme, too: こう・そう・ああ・どう = /koʜ soʜ aʜ doʜ/

Darius Jahandarie

Reading Japanese romanization has broken my intuition for how to pronounce things in English to quite a large degree.

Anonymous

I mean, not that specific symbol, but creating a "long vowel" phoneme does.

Darius Jahandarie

That was just a mostly unrelated comment I was making.

Anonymous

6:32 PM

Ah, I understood that

Darius Jahandarie

I don't even remember how I would have pronounced Satou back before I knew Japanese.

Anonymous

I often sort of plod ahead on the same line of thought I start even if people say other stuff . . . :-)

Darius Jahandarie

Oh. I considered that possibility, but couldn't quite connect the dots.

It makes sense now though.

Anonymous

I probably would have said səˈtaʊ

Darius Jahandarie

Why isn't there a Unicode small caps for Q, actually?

Anonymous

6:34 PM

Well, the other small caps characters weren't designed with small caps in mind

Anonymous

They were appropriated for the task :-)

Darius Jahandarie

Heh.

Anonymous

Officially, you're s'posed to do small caps with the regular letters

Anonymous

The closest you get is ǫ, as in ᴀʙᴄᴅᴇғɢʜɪᴊᴋʟᴍɴᴏᴘǫʀsᴛᴜᴠᴡxʏᴢ

Anonymous

I'm not sure how legible that would be in a phonemic romanization

Anonymous

6:35 PM

tyoǫto　←　Erf :-(

Anonymous

Do not want

Darius Jahandarie

Yeah, that definitely doesn't work.

Anonymous

Have you read Tokashiki's thesis on the difference between 中止形 versus 連用形＋テ？

Anonymous

She rejects all of Kuno's generalizations about the difference, giving counterexamples

Anonymous

(sawa's answer on the two basically reports that section of Kuno 1973)

Anonymous

6:42 PM

On Japanese coordinate structures: an investigation of structural differences between the -te form and the -i form (Kyoko Tokashiki 1989)

Darius Jahandarie

6:59 PM

Which answer are you referring to?

Anonymous

5

A: なく vs. なくて and stem form vs. てform as conjunctions

te-form is similar to the English participial construction, and has the following restrictions as opposed to using the stem. 1) It implies temporal order 泣いて、笑った 'having cried, laughed' 泣き、笑った 'cried and laughed' [Without temporal implication] 2) Volitionality of what is connect...

Anonymous

Tokashiki's discussion of Kuno's generalizations starts on page 51 (numbered page 58 in the PDF)

Anonymous

This paper has some good general discussion of coordination, too

Darius Jahandarie

Oh, how I wish she used a different verb than 思う for (51)

> (53a) has topicalized otoko in both conjuncts. Although otoko in the first conjunct is the subject and otoko in the second conjunct is the object, when they are topicalized, they both have the topic marker wa. After otoko is topicalized, it is deleted, having the same index with the head noun by Relativization.

This is something I have never been 100% about!

(Those numbers were from Ch 2.)

Anonymous

7:18 PM

Ah, yes

Anonymous

I wish authors would just use unique numbers for their entire publications

Anonymous

It's not like they're going to run out of numbers :-)

Darius Jahandarie

It would be cool if sentences were hashed and referred to by hash.

Then there could be databases of sentences used in linguistics papers, with really good crossreferencing.

This paper is nice.

Just got to (28). Nicely pointed out.

(42) is weird for me.

(43) is even worse though.

Darius Jahandarie

7:45 PM

Asked some native speakers and they agree that (42) is grammatically fine (though weird due to the 寝た being in the middle like that course) while (43) is just wrong.

This is pretty interesting.

(51a) also sounds wrong to me, but I guess it's the exact same thing.

Anonymous

8:10 PM

We only have two questions tagged aspect

Anonymous

8:20 PM

@Choko That is a lot of tattoos.

Anonymous

I guess tattoos are a lot more common here than in Japan, but I don't think I could ever get one

@snailboat Some time ago I learned the word いポン　meaning full point (judo of course) looking up the kanji I come across 2 scriptsいま゜ん

hold on

Anonymous

8:41 PM

@Chris You're mixing up ほ and ま. In hiragana it's いっぽん

一本 and　一品　Which is the correct translation

Anonymous

一品 is いっぴん, 一本 is いっぽん

Yeah I was. Stupid IME　Can be hard to read.

Anonymous

realkana.com

Thanks

Darius Jahandarie

8:44 PM

@snailboat I'm pretty sure visible tattoos make you mostly unemployable in Japan.

Sort of a sign of being in a gang / yakuza, AFAIK.

Anonymous

9:00 PM

Yeah, I know there's a taboo there, though some people still get them

Anonymous

I can't imagine wanting something drawn on my skin for forever

Anonymous

My sister has tattoos. One of my friends has a math tattoo

3 to 5 business days

ま゜ = ま with handakuten!

> 1 + 1 = 2

That math tattoo is all the rage now

How do you feel about answers that simply says, "Yes, that's how I was taught too"?

Darius Jahandarie

Heh. My neighbor has a tattoo of π.

3 to 5 business days

3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445…

Darius Jahandarie

9:12 PM

Just the letter, not the number. :)

3 to 5 business days

No, look at the link

Hehe

Darius Jahandarie

Oh, heh.

The ellipsis was not helpful there.

3 to 5 business days

yeah

Darius Jahandarie

This tattoo discussion reminds me of someone who got 「日本語がわかりません」 tattoo'd on their arm.

I can't seem to find the picture now.

3 to 5 business days

Also, it reminds of a picture of someone wearing a T-shirt saying 「糞」

Very edgy

9:39 PM

@DariusJahandarie deliberately, or because the tattooist was having a laugh?

Darius Jahandarie

I assume it wasn't deliberately.

it would be an awesome thing to get done deliberately

but everyone would assume you didn't realise

3 to 5 business days

At least it's semantically and grammatically correct

Way better than those nonsensical tattoos you see people getting translation for on /r/translator

yeah

and useful

like if you got injured, the paramedics would know not to talk to you in Japanese

like a medical bracelet

1 hour later…

Anonymous

10:57 PM

yo.rim.or.jp/~tomte/panel/tanabatamonogatari.htm

3 to 5 business days

11:47 PM

If you have a sentence like 「Aて、B」, what is the terminology for A?

I know in 「Aとき、B」, A is called "subordinate clause", among other names

Anonymous

That probably depends on A and B

3 to 5 business days

2shay

Anonymous

At least some of the time, ～て is clearly subordinate

3 to 5 business days

Yes

I know

Ah

「Aで、B」 where で is 連用形 of だ

Anonymous

Still probably depends

3 to 5 business days

11:55 PM

Darn it

> 値上げに踏み切るのは「ＵＣＣ上島珈琲」と「キーコーヒー」で、両社とも平成２３年３月以来３年８か月ぶりに家庭用のレギュラーコーヒーを値上げします

The first part is probably not subordinate

In other word, insubordinate

Anonymous

When you join two things together but neither is clearly superordinate to the other, you have coordination (A and B)

3 to 5 business days

If you want to refer to clause A, is there a term for it?

Anonymous

I don't know what you mean

3 to 5 business days

insubordinate clause

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Oct '1431

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