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1:58 AM
ごおd もrにんg!
 
Anonymous
2:10 AM
@DariusJahandarie If you want to read more about sluicing/clefting, Hiraiwa has another interesting paper, Syntactic Metamorphosis: Clefts, Sluicing, and In-Situ Focus in Japanese (2012)
 
what is sluicing/clefting?
ah thanks Apple dictionary
 
Anonymous
They're linguistics terms
 
Anonymous
I met her that day. (original sentence) → It was her that I met that day (clefted sentence)
 
Anonymous
You split the sentence in two in order to focus a particular element.
 
Anonymous
So "cleft" refers to that splitting
 
Anonymous
2:22 AM
In Japanese, the basic cleft form is 〜〜の(は)〜〜だ
 
Anonymous
English has more types of clefts than Japanese
 
oh, this is so much more obvious than " complex sentence (one having a main clause and a dependent clause) that has a meaning that could be expressed by a simple sentence". Thank you for kind explanation @snailboat
 
Anonymous
2:35 AM
@DariusJahandarie Oh, I found a rebuttal to the paper I just mentioned: ir.acc.senshu-u.ac.jp/…
 
I like your approach.
 
Anonymous
What is my approach?
 
every time one states something one must think of everything denying what's stated.
 
Anonymous
Seems like a good idea
 
Anonymous
4:14 AM
I tentatively posted an answer about clefts :-)
 
5:05 AM
@snailboat Your answers are oh so satisfying to my OCD.
(Really great answer though, seriously.)
Interesting use of ﹅, hehe.
Shouldn't the predicate be bolded in the English glosses of the Japanese sentences?
 
Anonymous
@DariusJahandarie Ah, oops! Yes, the emphasis dot was supposed to be the equivalent of italics for Japanese, because I didn't want to use actual italics
 
Why did you include both the clefted and non-clefted glosses for the clefted Japanese sentences?
 
Anonymous
I guess because I was thinking sometimes you'd use a cleft in Japanese when you'd use a non-cleft in English
 
Anonymous
If that's confusing I can change it
 
I at least wouldn't use a cleft in English for those sentences when speaking, but I would have just put the clefted version in the answer for parallel's sake.
 
Anonymous
5:16 AM
I'll put in a note explaining what I just said instead of dual glosses
 
Sounds good.
 
Anonymous
Edited! :-)
 
Beautiful.
 
Anonymous
It always takes me some revision when I put together a longer answer
 
5:42 AM
This comment is pretty interesting:
ほんとですねぇ~・・・ここで「です。」は自然ですが、もしこれを「でございます。」と言うと、ちょっと丁寧すぎて、少し違和感がありますよね。「ではございません」は「‌​ではありません」でも良かったでしょうけど・・。なぜか、「ではございません」と言っても、丁寧すぎておかしい、という感じはあまりしません。 — Choko Mar 28 '13 at 16:27
であります definitely feels 丁寧すぎる, I guess that fits the pattern.
Yeah. I guess when ありません is natural then ございません is pretty much equally natural, as in the negative case.
 
6:08 AM
Noooo, the video linked in this question has been taken down due to copyright violation!
 
Anonymous
That's actually one reason we should try to edit questions so they say the names of sources
 
Anonymous
You know, where possible
 
Anonymous
Apparently it was "Gaki no Tsukai"
 
Anonymous
 
whoa, the show has a subreddit dedicated to it
 
Anonymous
6:21 AM
@3to5businessdays Updated!
 
@snailboat oh boy, that punishment
 
6:57 AM
That show is... not funny at all.
 
Anonymous
7:27 AM
Ooh, I saw a flag right when it popped into existence!
 
Anonymous
That was fun.
 
日本語ができますか。
Or... is it a bit stilted
 
Xeo
My first try would be to use 話せる, as in, 「日本語が話せますか?」.
 
that sounds better
 
Anonymous
Well
 
Anonymous
7:37 AM
People do say it various ways including with できる
 
Xeo
Man, I really want to use を instead of が there
 
Anonymous
In any case, I think that you should keep the sentence nice and simple in case the answer is only a little bit :-) So I wouldn't worry about it being too stilted as long as it's basic and understandable
 
Xeo
But 話せる is intransitive. Feels a bit weird.
 
@Xeo Actually I think you can use を
 
Xeo
My other idea was 「日本語を話しますか?」
Which would be more literal to the "Do you speak" and not "Can you speak", I think
@3to5businessdays Really?
 
7:40 AM
I think for some there's some wiggle room between を and が
though it might be about ~たい instead of potential form
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays That's a little bit different, but it's similar
 
Anonymous
@Xeo If you use が, then it's possible to use に (a dative subject construction)
 
Xeo
@3to5businessdays ugh, more confusion about が... thanks Japan! :<
 
Anonymous
〜に〜が(可能動詞)
 
Anonymous
〜が〜を(可能動詞)
 
Anonymous
7:42 AM
But there are different kinds of potentials
 
In any case, を話せる is quite common judging by Google hits
 
Xeo
How do you do the fancy furigana? I can't find it in the formatting help.
 
98 hits on 少納言, actually
 
Anonymous
〜が〜が is also possible, but in that case the first が would almost always be replaced with は
 
7
A: How should I format my questions on Japanese Language SE?

jkerianFurigana Support You can add furigana to your questions and answers! Just type this in: 感じる​{かんじる}   or 感じる​【かんじる】 The site should turn it into this: 感じる{かんじる} Sometimes the furigana will end up over the wrong kanji. If that happens, you can use [] to tell it which kanji the ...

 
Anonymous
7:45 AM
Except for in subordinate clauses
 
Anonymous
@Xeo It doesn't work in chat
 
Xeo
I was trying to find it for my comment.
 
Anonymous
太郎が英語を話せる(こと)
太郎が英語が話せる(こと)
太郎に英語が話せる(こと)
 
Anonymous
Adding こと in these examples makes them into subordinate clauses, which means that sentence-level syntax (like は for topic marking) doesn't take place, so we can see the basic case patterns (ignoring が-の conversion, though)
 
Xeo
damn, too late to edit
 
Anonymous
7:47 AM
Just post it again :-)
 
Anonymous
No one can see deleted comments 'cept for moderators :-)
 
Xeo
I guess.
 
That said, 話せる corresponds to "can speak"
but is there a parallel to "do you speak {lang}"?
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays できる is common enough
 
Anonymous
"Do you speak" really means "Can you speak" anyway
 
Xeo
7:49 AM
9 mins ago, by Xeo
My other idea was 「日本語を話しますか?」
 
Anonymous
If someone asked "Do you speak Japanese?" and you said "No, although I'm perfectly capable of it", it would be an infelicitous response
 
Anonymous
(It would make sense literally, but it wouldn't be the sort of response the question expects)
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays That's antifelicitous :-)
 
ah, that didn't work out well );
 
Anonymous
Oh, sorry, I was joking! :-)
 
7:52 AM
not the right type of question );
 
Anonymous
I feel so sad when I see your little sad faces!
 
So... 「日本語を話しますか?」 can be used to ask if a person can speak Japanese then?
 
Xeo
Dunno, it's just the second thing that came to mind. :)
I don't think I'm good enough to say with confidence that something is correct.
DAMN. I forgot an ん in the furigana.
Alright, enough delete-and-repost shenanigans.
 
Anonymous
Oh, you already reposted!
 
Anonymous
If you ever really need me to do edits for you after 5 minutes, you can send me a message on chat
 
Xeo
8:04 AM
I'll leave that for comments that would be weird to delete and repost (as in, in a comment thread with replies, or when it's highly upvoted or something). I checked if the OP had seen the comment, and since he was "last seen: 45mins ago", I guessed not.
 
Anonymous
Yeah, if you ever really need me to. :-)
 
Anonymous
@Xeo I didn't actually realize you were participating on the site itself until you said so! I thought you had just joined us here in chat :-D
 
Xeo
I did. I've been lurking on the site proper for a while, but I never thought of just jumping into chat until yesterday.
 
Anonymous
I like Japanese.SE!
 
Xeo
I think the only contribution I did before that comment now was an edit to an answer.
 
8:18 AM
I too have lurked on SE for a long time, before wandering into chatroom(s)
Well not exactly lurked
More like I've been using SE for quite some time before I started participating in chatroom
 
Xeo
I've been active on SO for the last 4 years.
And been a regular in the Lounge<C++> over there for almost 3, I think
3.5 even
 
Anonymous
8:45 AM
Yay, naruto suggested できる. That's what I learned (as one of the first things I learned in Japanese! :-)
 
9:10 AM
whoa I didn't know hikakin is a beatboxer
I've only seen his funny videos
 
@snailboat Is 話せる wrong per se? It never occurred to me to use できる and I don't know if I've been doing it incorrectly all this time.
 
Anonymous
@Troyen It is definitely not wrong
 
What makes people prefer できる? Less blunt/direct? More elegant?
 
Anonymous
The case patterns I gave for 話せる above (〜が〜が・〜に〜が・〜が〜を) are from Iwasaki's 2013 book Japanese: Revised Edition, p.168, where he uses 話せる as an example
 
Anonymous
I think できる is just more common
 
Anonymous
9:17 AM
But you could ask naruto
 
Anonymous
He's a native speaker :-)
 
Anonymous
I know enough to say 話せる isn't wrong, but he might be able to do a better job of explaining what impression both words give
 
Anonymous
I know native speakers say both
 
Anonymous
Both (言語)ができる and (言語)が話せる
 
Maybe you already answered this, but what's the difference in connotation between を話せる and が話せる?
(I'm way out of practice)
 
Anonymous
9:22 AM
According to Iwasaki, there is no difference in meaning, it's just different grammatically
 
According to snailboat, that means what? (:
 
Anonymous
I don't know of any difference in connotation
 
Anonymous
There are people who try to analyze fine differences like that . . .
 
Xeo
I just wanna know why を is allowed at all there :/
 
Anonymous
9:26 AM
But in this example I honestly don't know of any difference
 
19
Q: The difference between が and を with the potential form of a verb.

phirruWhen using the potential form of a verb, I was taught that the particle を becomes が. However, in real life this seems to not always be the case. I've even heard Japanese people use を instead of が quite often. What's the difference between the following two sentences? Is を actually grammatically ...

 
Xeo
The last paragraph is probably unhelpful. 喋る and 話す in this meaning don't use the 可能形 normally. These are in the category of verbs where the 辞書形 implies the 可能 like 入る — virmaior 17 mins ago
Interesting.
 
Anonymous
The potential forms of both verbs are used.
 
Xeo
@3to5businessdays Hm, for some reason I thought 話せる was a seperate (and intransitive) verb, maybe because it always pops up first as such with Rikaichan / Jisho.
But then again, "を + potential is not yet considered standard"
More confusion to add to the pile...
 
Anonymous
The Japanese potential form comes from the passive, a shortening of -(r)are- to -(r)e-. For consonant-stem verbs, this change is mostly in the past, 話される hanas-are-ru → 話せる hanas-e-ru, but for vowel-stem verbs, it's still ongoing, 食べられる tabe-rare-ru → 食べれる tabe-re-ru
 
Anonymous
9:40 AM
For some verbs, either is possible: 行ける ik-e-ru and 行かれる ik-are-ru both exist
 
@Xeo That book is written in 1987 I think
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays But its author's Japanese was formed in the 60s
 
@snailboat What means you?
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays Are we talking about Jorden's Japanese: The Spoken Language?
 
Anonymous
9:42 AM
She learned Japanese mostly in and before the 60s, as I understand it
 
Xeo
Meh, I should just wait until I get to the potential form in my book.
 
Anonymous
So in the 80s her Japanese was slightly out-of-date
 
Anonymous
As I understand it.
 
@snailboat You read her book?
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays I did not
 
Anonymous
9:48 AM
I read about the author, though
 
Anonymous
She was part of the structuralist school, a student of Bernard Bloch, much like Samuel Martin
 
Anonymous
And Andrew Roy Miller
 
eli5 of "structuralist school"?
 
Anonymous
Hehe!
 
Anonymous
They were very influential in Japanese as a Foreign Language
 
10:35 AM
what the hell
there's still a marathon in Beijing with all that smog
that's so bad for you
 
Xeo
11:13 AM
Great success - googling for あさっての方向 only yields the anime.
 
Anonymous
Try looking for あさっての方を向く
 
Anonymous
Instead of 方向
 
Anonymous
It's a synonym
 
Anonymous
Or just あさってを向く
 
Anonymous
Those all have the same meaning
 
Xeo
11:16 AM
The sentence feels like "let's talk about that later", but that'd just be my uneducated guess.
 
Anonymous
Ah, the idiom is more like "missing the mark" (lit. focusing on あさって when you should be focusing on あした)
 
Xeo
I see
 
Anonymous
"Missing the mark" isn't quite right
 
Anonymous
More like looking the wrong way / focusing your attention on the wrong thing, so you end up missing the mark because your attention is on the wrong thing
 
Anonymous
I can't help but feel I explained that terribly . . . :-)
 
Anonymous
11:21 AM
Anyway, it's a good question!
 
Xeo
Nah, I get the gist of it
 
Anonymous
I have some examples
 
Anonymous
> あさってを向いていて、前の車に追突してしまった
 
Anonymous
> みんながあさってを向いていて、議論がかみ合わない
 
Xeo
Sounds like the German "nicht bei der Sache sein", or simply being "absent-minded".
 
Anonymous
11:24 AM
More literal facing:
 
Anonymous
> 銃口があさってを向いているから的には当たらない
 
Xeo
Applying that to inanimate objects ... eh. But I think I got the "feeling" that it's being used for.
... how the heck did I get stuck on ~te-form questions again
Oh yeah, your example sentences.
 
Anonymous
They're from, just a sec
 
Anonymous
All three examples are from the 明鏡ことわざ成句使い方辞典
 
Anonymous
I have them in my notes :-)
 
11:31 AM
^ 大辞林 has 明後日の方を向く
 
Anonymous
Yeah, that's an exact synonym, I think
 
Anonymous
I guess there's a slight difference in tone from using 大和言葉 instead of 漢語
 
@Xeo Googling あさっての方向 led to this, which led me to the Daijirin entry
 
Anonymous
Well, 方 is still 漢語・・・
 
Anonymous
If you write an answer you can use those examples and cite the 明鏡ことわざ dictionary, if you want :-)
 
11:36 AM
@snailboat No, you do it
 
Anonymous
T_T But I wrote an answer already today! :-)
 
Anonymous
So much effort!
 
Anonymous
12:42 PM
@3to5businessdays I posted an answer even though I found it rather challenging to explain
 
Anonymous
I blame you!
 
12:59 PM
@snailboat I have no time for this!
I'm still reeling from the shock of discovering that the 強 in 強引 is read as ごう
 
@DariusJahandarie ひかいとうもの?
へえ
非+解凍物、みたいやな
@3to5businessdays go in
あさってのほうこう・・・
 
@Choko but I don't wanna! щ(ಥДಥщ)
 
おもしろいことばだわ
 
もったいない has an English Wikipedia page
Mottainai (もったいない, [mottainai]) is a Japanese term conveying a sense of regret concerning waste. The expression "Mottainai!" can be uttered alone as an exclamation when something useful, such as food or time, is wasted, meaning roughly "what a waste!" or "Don't waste." In addition to its primary sense of "wasteful", the word is also used to mean "impious; irreverent" or "more than one deserves". Mottainai is an old Buddhist word, which has ties "with the Shinto idea that objects have souls." Mottainai has been referred to as a tradition, a cultural practice, and an idea which is still active in...
 
へえ
そんな言葉がある日本で・・・
毎日・・・
 
1:12 PM
Damn, that box makes it look like the lady's name is Mottainai
 
たくさんの食べ物が捨てられています・・
@3to5businessdays あはは
「あさってのほうこう」で思い出したけど、「おとついおいで!」というのも面白い言葉ですね
なんでおとつい?
おとついには来れない。
「Would you please judge me in the way you should to be judged?」ってどういう意味でしょうか?
 
@Choko What's みんな言葉?
 
そんな言葉がある日本で、毎日、たくさんの食べ物が捨てられています。
みんな?
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays It was そ not み
 
Awww shit
I blame the font size!!
 
Anonymous
1:21 PM
Hehe, I made my font here really big :-)
 
Anonymous
My eyes aren't so good
 
@Choko If they don't do that, then people won't have a chance to use the word
 
Anonymous
@Choko I don't know おとついおいで!
 
Anonymous
 
Come on the day after tomorrow!
?
No
 
1:22 PM
The other way round
 
the day before yesterday!
 
I guess it's the absurdity
 
おh!
 
It's funny
 
しt!
 
1:23 PM
Come the day before yesterday!
 
Anonymous
@Choko Hehe!
 
You're facing the day after tomorrow!
ふぁck
 
cらp
 
oops spelt it wrong
 
ふck
 
Anonymous
1:24 PM
@Choko I am pretending you typed "sit!"
 
I accidentally romanized to fa.... T_T
 
Anonymous
 
fracking?
明後日の方向
 
Anonymous
Hehe, I like typing あさって in kana
 
Anonymous
There was a while when I couldn't remember あさって and when I saw the kanji I always thought みょうごにち
 
1:27 PM
杜撰= ずさん?
難しい
 
Anonymous
I don't know that word
 
Anonymous
I know あさって and おととい are pretty common words, but for some reason I had a hard time remembering them at first
 
杜←もり?
 
@snailboat Because they have odd sound?
Then again all of them do
きょう、きのう、あした
 
Anonymous
杜 looks like it would mean 林の神社
 
1:29 PM
「あさって」と「おととい」を間違える・・
 
yesterday, today, tomorrow
 
Anonymous
@Choko Maybe it was hard because we don't have those words in English! :-)
 
「杜甫」の杜
 
I don't see おととい or あさって that often
maybe I should use anki
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays I think people say them
 
1:30 PM
@snailboat I read news articles which usually use numeric dates
 
Xeo
@3to5businessdays No mentioning of Ryuuji from Toradora. I'm disappointed!
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays Ohh, you've only been studying for a few months, and you already read Japanese newspapers!!
 
@snailboat I'm reading the easy version (^_^;)
 
Anonymous
Du Fu (Wade-Giles: Tu Fu; Chinese: 杜甫; pinyin: Dù Fǔ; 712 – 770) was a prominent Chinese poet of the Tang dynasty. Along with Li Bai (Li Po), he is frequently called the greatest of the Chinese poets. His greatest ambition was to serve his country as a successful civil servant, but he proved unable to make the necessary accommodations. His life, like the whole country, was devastated by the An Lushan Rebellion of 755, and his last 15 years were a time of almost constant unrest. Although initially he was little-known to other writers, his works came to be hugely influential in both Chinese a...
 
@Xeo Why? What did he do?
 
Xeo
1:33 PM
@3to5businessdays 「もったいない!」 is his catchphrase.
 
Tofu, also known as bean curd, is a food made by coagulating soy milk and then pressing the resulting curds into soft white blocks. It is a component in East Asian and Southeast Asian cuisines. There are many different varieties of tofu, including fresh tofu and tofu that has been processed in some way. Tofu is bought or made to be soft, firm, or extra firm. Tofu has a subtle flavor and can be used in savory and sweet dishes. It is often seasoned or marinated to suit the dish. Tofu originated in Han dynasty China some 2,000 years ago. Chinese legend ascribes its invention to prince Liu An (179...
 
Anonymous
Is とらどら an anime / manga series?
 
close enough
 
Xeo
@snailboat hai
 
とらどら the Explorer
 
Anonymous
1:33 PM
@3to5businessdays Hee
 
@Xeo Is that the greeting "hai" or the sighing "hai"?
 
Xeo
hai -> はい
Was too lazy for hiragana
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays It was probably the lung "hai"
 
Or 敗
Fail for not knowing とらどら
 
Xeo
lol
It was just supposed to be "yes" :<
 
Anonymous
1:36 PM
@Xeo We know!! 3to5 is just being silly :-)
 
Xeo
Although I guess you weren't entirely correct - it's originally a light novel series.
 
Anonymous
Ohh, I see
 
Xeo
but it has an anime and manga adaption
 
I get あさって and おととい confused too
but I think the little idiom will help me remember
 
Xeo
I remember あさって from あした, あ->あ
 
Anonymous
1:41 PM
おととい → youtube.com/watch?v=gnd1wSIyN-g
 
Anonymous
♫ 昨日より遠く おとといよりオクターブ高く ♫
 
Ouch my ears (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
@snailboat I never noticed that before
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays Hey, un返し that ちゃぶ台!
 
> Hey, unkaeshi that chabudai
 
Xeo
1:44 PM
┬──┬◡ノ(° -°ノ)
 
Sorry, I don't...
 
Anonymous
@Xeo Thank you :-)
 
Xeo
Btw, any thoughts on YesJapan / Japanese from Zero in here?
 
Anonymous
I don't know about those things
 
"those things"?
 
Anonymous
1:46 PM
YesJapan and Japanese from Zero
 
Anonymous
I assumed they were two things
 
Anonymous
Sorry, I'm not useful! Hehe
 
くそ, now I have K-On! stuck in my head
 
Anonymous
Yay!
 
might have to watch some おうらん高校ホスト部 to displace it
 
Anonymous
2:04 PM
Is 知らせさせる totally normal?
 
「知らせる」でええんちゃう?
ん?
知らせさせる・・・
 
Anonymous
Like, make someone inform someone else?
 
let someone know = しらせる
おお
like 連絡させます
or 知らせてもらう
 
Anonymous
Oh, I like that one!
 
somethingを知らせるように言う (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
2:46 PM
┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
 
Xeo
Look at all the smurfs!
 
?
 
Xeo
Since mods have blue names in chat, we've been calling them smurfs over in SO's Lounge<C++>
 
I have the sudden temptation to play my smurf LoL account
 
Anonymous
Or as Tolkien might say, smurves
 
3:04 PM
hey, I just thought: since 電車 is "train", what do Japanese speakers call electric cars?
 
電気自動車・・・
たぶん。
 
分かった
 
Anonymous
Sometimes you can use the Wikipedia trick! Go to Electric car on English Wikipedia, and then click 日本語, which takes you to 電気自動車 on Japanese Wikipedia :-)
 
Anonymous
It doesn't always work perfectly but sometimes it's better than using a dictionary!
 
that's clever
 
 
3 hours later…
5:58 PM
whoa, 仁 looks so much like に
 
 
3 hours later…
8:28 PM
Nice to see that people come and go, but one thing stays the same: Choko still regularly changes her username and avatar ;)
 

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