Japanese Language

Aerovistae

11:00 AM

ok i havent learned that yet

that explains it though

何

Anonymous

あんき is 暗記

Aerovistae

perfect! ありがと

Anonymous

記憶（きおく） is a basic word for memory

Aerovistae

kioku?

Anonymous

Yes

3 to 5 business days

11:00 AM

wanikani is 鰐蟹

Aerovistae

WAIT FOR IT

聞きませ　でした

Anonymous

Your ん got et.

Aerovistae

im sure that's not actually right, since i translated literally, but...

kikimasen deshita...

"i have not heard [that word]"

that seems wrong....kiki is the root.....but

but it left き as kana

Anonymous

kik- is the root

Aerovistae

hmm

oh?

Anonymous

11:03 AM

Yes, kik-anai, kik-u, kik-eru, kik-imasu

Aerovistae

ahhh okay i am still a conjugation noob

Anonymous

Usually the invariant part is written with the kanji, in this case き

Aerovistae

more time needed.

Anonymous

The next part varies, at least from the perspective of kana (ka, ki, ku, ke, ko)

Anonymous

Because the root ends halfway through the next kana

Aerovistae

11:04 AM

ohhhh

Anonymous

So that part has to be written in kana since it changes.

Aerovistae

didn't know it could do that

Anonymous

聞かない
聞きます
聞く
聞ける
聞こう

Anonymous

See how the kana changes? That means that part can't be written in kanji.

Anonymous

It has to be in kana.

3 to 5 business days

11:07 AM

By the way, should it be 「聞いたことはない」 or 「聞いたことがない」?

I'm more inclined towards は

since for some reason I often see は with negative context

Anonymous

は is a stereotyped part of a lot of negatives and sometimes it doesn't have any contrastive meaning, but it depends on the construction

Anonymous

ではない often doesn't have any contrastive meaning, for example, because は is just so natural there that it's often lost its meaning

Anonymous

Interestingly, こと＋ない very often omits a particle entirely, more often than with other words

Anonymous

「聞いたことないよ」

3 to 5 business days

たことがない actually returned more hits compared to たことはない on ALC

Anonymous

11:10 AM

ALC is not a corpus

3 to 5 business days

Yes

But it does tell me both are quite common

Anonymous

たことがない　1996件
たことはない　1330件
たことない　　910件

Anonymous

Those are from BCCWJ (a written corpus)

3 to 5 business days

same order as ALC

Anonymous

In the subtitle corpus (dialogue from TV shows):

Anonymous

11:12 AM

たことがない　771件
たことはない　670件
たことない　　2934件

3 to 5 business days

what corpus is that?

a new one!?

Anonymous

Um, a lot of subtitle files from the internet. :-)

Anonymous

It's about 400MB of text.

Anonymous

I'm being attacked by a moth!

Aerovistae

what is ALC?

you're being attacked by a moth???

are you okay?

DID THE MOTH WIN

MOTH, I KNOW YOU'RE READING THIS

GIVE US BACK SNAILBOAT

LOL

Anonymous

11:24 AM

Anonymous

Moth says hello!

3 to 5 business days

@snailboat send the snailplane to engage with it

it's gonna be an epic air battle

Aerovistae

uh....so has snailboat come up with a photo contract for the moth and is speaking for it, or is the moth referring to itself in the third person here

Anonymous

I love moths but they have no concept of personal space

Aerovistae

and how did you get that photo so fast?

Anonymous

11:26 AM

I used my phone

Aerovistae

phone -> email?

Anonymous

I like this book, "Jazz Up Your Japanese with Onomatopoeia"

Anonymous

From the title it sounds kind of hokey

Anonymous

But I actually think it's a pretty neat book :-)

Aerovistae

i am trying and failing to figure out the kana for 由

oh wait....　ゆ ?

(as a verb stem)

3 to 5 business days

11:29 AM

what verb uses 由?

Aerovistae

由る？

kanjijapanese.com/en/dictionary-japanese-english/…

Anonymous

You shouldn't be learning よる as 由る

3 to 5 business days

I often see it written in kana

But I haven't seen a lot

Aerovistae

why not? @snailboat

Anonymous

Because it isn't generally written that way

Anonymous

11:31 AM

And it's not on the official list

Aerovistae

oh....im not really learning kanji atm....i just keep seeing that character and i tried looking it up and that verb was what i found

for all i know it's being used in a different meaning than as part of that verb

Anonymous

Where did you see it?

Aerovistae

some random posts on twitter

let's see if i can find one

Anonymous

Yes, it's part of some common words

Anonymous

But the verb よる, while common, is not usually written with it

Anonymous

11:33 AM

There are a lot of ways to write things in Japanese you shouldn't be learning right now, because they're rare or archaic or both, and you need to prioritize

Aerovistae

example---

コナン、エレン、ルフィ、キリト、ナルトが集結！その理由は海賊版阻止

(FWIW)

Anonymous

It's like if an English beginner learned how to spell amblyopia

Aerovistae

and yeah, i know....just sometimes i look up random things

Anonymous

Except less common

Aerovistae

i mean i spent all night learning some basic location grammar

"kuruma no naka ni arimasu!"

but occasionally i just google characters i see

Anonymous

11:34 AM

@Aerovistae So, there the word is 理由

Anonymous

You need to look up the word, not the character

Aerovistae

i might have lifted it from a different example :) but yes you're right

why would 私 need furigana?

i would assume that was one character that would seem fairly clear

Anonymous

Because kindergarteners and preschoolers might not know how to read it yet

Aerovistae

oh

funny that that's a grade 6 kanji

"I"

Anonymous

Oh, so it is

Anonymous

11:37 AM

But I would expect some students who aren't in the sixth grade yet to be able to read it :-)

Aerovistae

seems so basic and essential!

like even the earliest books for young children must use it

Anonymous

I don't know. I didn't learn to read Japanese as a child

Anonymous

It's easy enough to write わたし in kana though

Aerovistae

yes

have you ever been to japan?

i think i asked before, but i forgot. :)

Anonymous

I guess 私 was one of the first kanji I ever learned

Anonymous

11:39 AM

So I guess I think of it as being like a first grade kanji, even though it isn't

Aerovistae

it was my first one

since it was coming up in like every example sentence...

Anonymous

@Aerovistae I used to work for a Japanese company (really for an American company with a Japanese branch, but they didn't actually own the Japanese branch)

Aerovistae

ah

Anonymous

And the product we were working on wasn't successful in the US, but it was successful in Japan

Aerovistae

what was it?

(also, that person who is in this chatroom but who hasnt said anything whose icon is green, how do you say his name? i would be unable to address him)

(it is all unfamiliar kanji)

Anonymous

11:41 AM

I worked at Yahoo!

Aerovistae

oh!

Anonymous

Yahoo! Japan was the first intl property Y! set up

非回答者

I'm ひかいとうしゃ,

Aerovistae

hikaitousha

no idea where to break that

非回答者

しゃ, not　しゅ

Aerovistae

11:43 AM

yes, corrected

:D

Anonymous

And it is kind of special in a sense, in that Yahoo! Japan is really an independent company. They made sure to own all the future intl properties outright, where possible (I think in some cases it wasn't possible, like in China, where there are laws about international corporate ownership)

Anonymous

And we developed Yahoo! Auctions, but it didn't do well in the US at all!

Aerovistae

like ebay?

Anonymous

In the US, everyone used eBay

Anonymous

But it took off in Japan, and it did decently in some other countries too but not as well

Aerovistae

11:44 AM

this must have been some time ago

a very long time ago

Anonymous

Oh, yeah

Aerovistae

before japan adopted kana

Anonymous

Uh. :-)

Anonymous

I'm not a thousand years old!

Aerovistae

disappointing :(

Anonymous

11:45 AM

I was even worse at Japanese back then :-)

Aerovistae

"even worse"

you're really knowledgeable!

Anonymous

Well, you've never talked to me in Japanese, so you don't know how good or bad my Japanese is.

Anonymous

It's not too good. :-)

Anonymous

I know some basic stuff though and I try to help people when I can

Aerovistae

how long did you live in japan for?

Anonymous

11:47 AM

Do I hafta tell my life story? :-)

Anonymous

It doesn't matter too much, since I was pretty worthless at Japanese

Anonymous

Although I'd been learning for a few years! :-)

Anonymous

I'm afraid I'm a bit of a slow learner

Anonymous

I've learned more in the US

Anonymous

The other problem is when I was working there, I had no real time to study

Anonymous

11:50 AM

So it's kind of embarrassing how little I learned over such a long span of time :-)

Choko

@非回答者まだ非回答者？

なんかもうちょっと・・・

回答者にしたら・・

3 to 5 business days

amblyopia

Anonymous

That's right, amblyopia!

Choko

@Aerovistae 非＋回答者

でしょう

いや、

非＋回答＋者？

（非＋回答）者？

非＋（回答＋者）？

3 to 5 business days

No, it's 非回 + 答者

Choko

12:02 PM

@snailboat が？

が・・・

Anonymous

@Choko Hehe, sorry!

Anonymous

It attacked me!

Choko

うええええ

掃除機で吸う

Aerovistae

so confused

3 to 5 business days

so cruel

Anonymous

12:03 PM

Oh, but it attacked me at 4 in the morning!

Anonymous

That would be too noisy.

Anonymous

Plus, I'm never mean to が.

Choko

へえ・・

Aerovistae

....you live in canada?

or alaska

Anonymous

No, you live in Canada!

Anonymous

12:04 PM

When it attacked me, it was close to 4 than 5 :-) It is now 5 in the morning

Choko

金田

Aerovistae

oh, no, that was already almost an hour ago

right

Anonymous

I live in California in the US

Aerovistae

california

3 to 5 business days

Who attacked what in Canada?

Aerovistae

12:04 PM

yes

Anonymous

Hehe, 金田

Anonymous

Oh, that reminds me of a cartoon

Choko

@snailboat 早起きねえ～

いや、夜更かし？

3 to 5 business days

@Choko Well, one tends to wake up when one is attacked by moths

Aerovistae

i know 4 kanji :D

(thinking out loud)

oh, no, i know the numbers too i guess

oh! 5 kanji. OH! 6!

ignore me

Choko

12:07 PM

ｗｗ

Anonymous

►

Xeo

Hm, I wonder why I didn't think of going here before.

Harro

Anonymous

That cartoon is what 金田 reminded me of :-)

3 to 5 business days

あなたの名前は @Aerovi

ほら

5-6 secs in!

Aerovistae

「ほら」わかりません

「ほら」をわかりません (??)

3 to 5 business days

12:11 PM

beta.jisho.org/search/%E3%81%BB%E3%82%89

Xeo

I wish beta.jisho would stop being beta.

Aerovistae

hmm

わかりません！

"your name, look!"

oh the video??

3 to 5 business days

yes haha

Aerovistae

it sounds like she's saying "my name is asso"

3 to 5 business days

@Xeo not a lot of people know about the beta I think, compared to the old one

Anonymous

12:13 PM

Don't forget there are a lot of other dictionaries available online, including some professionally edited ones :-)

3 to 5 business days

@Aerovistae it's like she's saying "sou nan desu kar"

Aerovistae

「そう」をわかりません

！

i hate to keep saying that, esp. since i don't know if it's right grammatically...

Anonymous

～～がわかる

Aerovistae

が, not を ?

has to be?

thought that had to do with emphasis

Xeo

わかる is intransitive, it does not take a direct object

3 to 5 business days

12:16 PM

～～どえすぼおるどワク

Anonymous

What are you learning your Japanese from?

Anonymous

Your book probably doesn't say it has to do with emphasis

3 to 5 business days

@3to5businessdays oh it does

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays It does sometimes

Aerovistae

i was just starting out with learn-japanese.info to learn some basics, then ill move on to something bigger ---

learn-japanese.info/lesson9.html

second link relating to が

scroll to bottom

er, halfway

ish

Anonymous

12:17 PM

Well, that's talking about ～たい…

Xeo

Particles unfortunately don't have a single meaning :)

Aerovistae

i have no idea what you mean

@snailboat

and yes, of course, not surprising @Xeo

oh you mean が has a special meaning with 〜たい form

okay

Anonymous

The basic function of を is to mark a direct object.

Choko

in 「～～が好きです」,

is ～～ the subject?

Anonymous

I think it is a nominative object

Aerovistae

12:20 PM

snailboat, linguistics fiend

Choko

おおお

Aerovistae

ooo???

Choko

Ohh

いぇｓ

Aerovistae

is that the same as the english interjection "ohhhh"?

Anonymous

books.google.com/…

Aerovistae

12:21 PM

like, can i say that?

おおお

3 to 5 business days

うｐ

Aerovistae

are you ... transliterating English into kana?

Anonymous

The most basic function of が is to mark a subject. The most basic function of を is to mark a direct object. So, you mostly use を with transitive verbs.

Xeo

I feel like が

Anonymous

A few predicates use particles a little bit differently.

Xeo

12:22 PM

is going to haunt me

Aerovistae

おおおおおおお

(ghost sound)

Choko

come to think of it...

好き is not a verb

Anonymous

When you use ～たい, there is something called を-が conversion that allows you to replace を with が

Aerovistae

allows or compels?

Anonymous

It's sort of a special exception

3 to 5 business days

12:23 PM

How about ほしい?

Aerovistae

hoshii

Choko

it's not a verb either

～がほしい。。。

3 to 5 business days

@Choko ～をほしい has 117 hits on 少納言

Choko

おおお

脳爆発

3 to 5 business days

～がほしい has 752 hits on 少納言

Anonymous

12:26 PM

You can find examples of ～を好き and ～をありがとう and ～を with other things that don't look like verbs

Choko

(brain explosion?)

Anonymous

Hehe!

3 to 5 business days

@snailboat ～をありがとう?

Aerovistae

time to go! thanks! later!

Choko

ぁてｒ

Anonymous

12:27 PM

Hehe!

Xeo

lol

3 to 5 business days

びぇあえろう゛ぃｓたえ

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays Oh, I tried to understand but then my brain fell out

Xeo

hilarious.

Choko

ひぁりおうｓ

Anonymous

12:29 PM

@3to5businessdays I can't figure out what you typed!

Anonymous

byeaerovistae

Anonymous

OMG

Anonymous

It all made sense once I typed it out... :-)

Anonymous

My poor brain!

Choko

Aerovistae?

byaero... そうか

3 to 5 business days

12:31 PM

まｙべいしょうｌでゃう゛ぇｔｙぺだｃおっまてぇれ

おrメイビーｓぱｃえ

Anonymous

maybe you should have typed a comma there or maybe space

3 to 5 business days

Typing space doesn't help

世え、位tダズントリアリーをｒｋ

Xeo

that only makes it worse with IME, unless you break out of IME mode, I guess.

3 to 5 business days

exactly

Anonymous

see, it doesn't really work

3 to 5 business days

12:34 PM

亜h、要’レゲッティングてぇ偽stおfいｔ

Anonymous

ah, you're getting the gist of it

Anonymous

At first I read it "nisest" and I couldn't figure out what that meant :-)

Anonymous

Oops, I meant "ah"

Xeo

Hm, no question on the etymology of かった for い-adjectives.

Anonymous

It's ～く + ある

Anonymous

12:39 PM

ku atta → k'atta

Xeo

ye, I guessed that's it

3 to 5 business days

ha + ku + nam+ atta + ta

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays What?

Xeo

hakuna matata

Anonymous

It's not fair to keep trying to hurt my brain... :-)

Anonymous

12:42 PM

@Xeo ling.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/…

3 to 5 business days

static.hwpi.harvard.edu/files/styles/profile_full/public/…

Xeo

12:58 PM

man, subsidiary verbs are weird. at least I know the name now.

In another chat, somebody was talking about the ～てみる form, and I was wondering why it wasn't written as ～て見る, until I got that it's basically a special grammatical form that has (almost?) nothing to do with the verb itself anymore.

Anonymous

Yes, that's right

Anonymous

5

A: What is a subsidiary verb?

Subsidiary verbs, known as 補助動詞（ほじょどうし） in Japanese grammar, are a small set of verbs which have grammaticalized uses following 〜て. According to Martin†, these verbs include: いる・おる・いらっしゃるくる・まいるいくくれる・くださるしまうみるおくもらう・いただくある・ございますやる・あげるみせる In these grammaticaliz...

Xeo

1:20 PM

Hm. For adjectives that describe "states" (such as あつい, つめたい), what kind of verbs can they be used with in adverb-form? I think I've only ever seen them used with なる.

Xeo

1:39 PM

@snailboat Man, the romanisation is a bit annoying

Darius Jahandarie

5:40 PM

こいつ荒らしだな。 japanese.stackexchange.com/users/7549

Anonymous

6:19 PM

@Xeo Yeah, sorry, that's linguistics papers for you!

Darius Jahandarie

8:20 PM

Is there an online interface for doing something like "show all words tagged with 'suf'" in JMDICT?

I can do it offline but that isn't exactly possible to show to other people...

Oh, I guess WWWJDIC lets you just search for it.

It annoyingly doesn't show all the results on one page though.

Oh, and even more importantly you can't link to search results directly.

こんなに荒らしいるなんて、なんか信じられないな…JLSEのいったいどこが荒らしにそんなに魅力的なんだろう…

他のSEもこうなんだろう…

Anonymous

8:38 PM

> 来ると知っていたら、部屋をきれいにしただろう。

Anonymous

For some reason, I wanted to put ん before だろう

Darius Jahandarie

I think they both work. Probably the version with ん is better.

Xeo

That ん-to-soften-transitions surely has a proper name, right?

Anonymous

It's the の that we know and love from のだ

Anonymous

In Japanese linguistics, it's often called the の of explanatory modality

Anonymous

8:49 PM

Although I think that name is of questionable value

Xeo

@snailboat so much stuff I don't know yet...

Anonymous

In Japanese dictionaries, which are based on the older Japanese school grammar, you'll find it called 準体助詞「の」, which means "the nominalizing particle, の"

Anonymous

And you'll often see it referred to as the nominalizer の

3 to 5 business days

9:43 PM

@DariusJahandarie You mean like this?

Or like this?

Far from being one page though...

Darius Jahandarie

11:45 PM

Ah yeah, that's what I was looking for, thanks.

@Choko 非＋［回答（者から名前の変わる）者］の略語。読みは「ひかいとうもの」。

Transcript for