Japanese Language

4:57 AM

yo

6:23 AM

I have a Twitter account called "CmisSync", and I would like to make Japanese and French accounts. French is easy: CmisSync_fr but would CmisSync_ja be understandable? CmisSync_jp sounds better but I am targeting each language more than each country... what is the standard practice?

Nicolas Raoul

6:48 AM

Looks like CentOS people were massively in favor of "ja": oss.poyo.jp/pipermail/centos-users/2008-July/thread.html#21392

Anonymous

Oh, it looks like they agree with you that ja signifies language and jp the country, and that specifying the former makes sense

Anonymous

Hooray!

Nicolas Raoul

and I just learnt that Japanese is spoken in Palau.

Anonymous

7:32 AM

I'm Japanese and couldn't read the kanji... orz... p.s. Oh I've seen that kanji, in 穿く! — Chocolate 4 mins ago

Anonymous

@Chocolate I couldn't read the kanji in that question either, but...

Anonymous

I learned 穿つ from song lyrics, and 穿鑿 from a book :-)

Chocolate

7:54 AM

@snailboat おおお…なんか見たことがある

うがつ、だっけ

(意味は知りません)

I learned うがつ from some manga... I think

Anonymous

@Chocolate It was in an anime song (紅蓮の弓矢) which used all sorts of crazy kanji

Chocolate

Crazy kanji .. ほんとだ。穿鑿<-- 読めない

紅蓮の弓矢　べにはすのやさき？

こうれんのやさき？

Anonymous

►

Anonymous

ぐれんのゆみや

Chocolate

ゆみや！

of course

ｗｗｗｗｗ

Anonymous

7:57 AM

Hehe!

Chocolate

おおおこれはもしやあの有名な

何とかの巨人

Anonymous

Hehe, that one! :-)

Anonymous

I watched that TV show

Anonymous

I think it was popular

Anonymous

Mostly though I just liked the theme song

Anonymous

7:59 AM

So I learned all the words, but I had to look up a bunch of them

Anonymous

Like 嚆矢 and 迸る and 屠る

Chocolate

読めない！ｗｗ

Yeah I think I've heard that song,

only part of it

多分コマーシャルで

I've seen part of that anime on youtube and

it was so scary...

怖かった・・・

Anonymous

Oh, it was, I don't usually watch scary things, but I watched the whole thing

Anonymous

It wasn't very satisfying though

Anonymous

They introduced all these mysteries in the beginning, but then they never resolved any of them

Anonymous

8:03 AM

I guess because it's based on a manga series, and the manga is incomplete

Anonymous

9:03 AM

@Chocolate Oh, I heard that song was really popular in Japan

Anonymous

They hired the guy from the band Sound Horizon to do it, I think. I know this because my friend is a big fan of Sound Horizon, and SH always uses crazy kanji in their songs :-)

Anonymous

Sometimes it's funny. They wrote 「錏痾蛙遭嗟有合或吾会在唖逢娃婀堊」 in their lyrics and sang 「ああああああああああああああああ」 :-)

ssb

9:16 AM

they did that song in the last 紅白

Chocolate

9:28 AM

never resolved any of them? そんなぁ・・・ちゃんとresolveしてほしい

Anonymous

Maybe they'll continue the series when the manga finishes.

Chocolate

I see.. so the manga is still continuing

So these kanji are all read あ

読めるかっｗｗ

Anonymous

Hehe, I'd never have guessed

Anonymous

I can see the 亞 and 阿 in a couple of them

Anonymous

I was admiring how the phonetic elements were symmetrically arranged in the first three kanji on either end

Anonymous

9:33 AM

So it starts 亞阿圭 and ends 圭阿亞

Chocolate

ああ、確かに

圭　も「あ」って読むのしらなかった

「けい」かな？と思う

Anonymous

I think you're right

Anonymous

But it looks like 蛙 and 娃 have あ readings listed in the dictionary...

Chocolate

@ssb I didn't watch 紅白

Anonymous

I certainly don't have that fact memorized :-)

Chocolate

9:35 AM

蛙　is かえる、 frog, でしょう

カエルしか知らないなあ

Anonymous

Hehe, I remember looking it up in the dictionary because it was interesting

Anonymous

Because when I looked it up, it said かえる and also かわず

Chocolate

@ssb I was watching ガキツカ

ssb

I didn't choose to watch it.. it was just on where I was

Anonymous

I don't really know かわず

Chocolate

9:37 AM

such a 下品な番組

Oh yes かわず

ssb

Interestingly I just checked the kanji for がまがえる

and it's 蝦蟇！

Anonymous

I think I've only seen it in the dictionary, and then when I looked up かわず on the internet

Anonymous

Oh... 当て字!

Anonymous

Er.

Anonymous

Somehow I turned that into katakana :-)

Chocolate

9:38 AM

カエルで思い出した・・

►

ssb

yes yes, no 蛙to be found

Anonymous

HAHA

Anonymous

I hadn't seen that video

Chocolate

かわいい・・・ちょっとかわいそう

Anonymous

I used to have a pet frog! :-)

Anonymous

9:40 AM

It was a much smaller frog.

Anonymous

I love frogs! Feeding them is gross, though.

Chocolate

gross? あはは

虫とか

ssb

i used to see frogs from time to time outside my house

Chocolate

ミミズとか

Anonymous

Hehe, yeah! You have to feed them bugs...

Chocolate

9:43 AM

@ssb じゃあ、「蝦」は「がま」かな、と思いきや・・・

「がま」で出ない

おおお　蝦　is えび

ガマガエル　と　えび　どういう関係が・・・

Anonymous

My guess is that they're used for their sound to write がま, and for the 虫 meaning, because they're two kanji read が and ま that have the 虫 radical

Anonymous

I don't know though

Anonymous

I'm going to look up 蝦 :-)

Chocolate

Oh then 蝦=が and 蟇=ま, maybe

and also read as ガマガエル？

多分

Anonymous

My 漢和辞典 doesn't explain why the kanji are used

Anonymous

9:50 AM

I see 蟇蛙 = ひきがえる

Chocolate

まあ・・・

ややこしい・・・

Anonymous

It's been a long time since I had a pet frog. (20 years?) But it was a good little froggy.

Anonymous

I don't really know these various frog/toad kanji, apart from 蛙＝かえる, but I did put ア on my flashcards when I learned it

Anonymous

I can never remember the difference between frogs and toads in English, either :-)

Chocolate

10:09 AM

I thought toad is ツチガエル (=陸上に住むカエル)

but weblio says

it's ヒキガエル、ガマ

「ヒキガエル、ガマ」もよく知らないけど、多分・・・

アマガエルより大きくて、ブサイク

・・・なイメージ

ssb

too many frogs!!

but i guess english is the same..

Chocolate

And you have a dish called something like...

frog in a hole?

ソーセージの乗ってるやつ。

オーブンで焼く。

Anonymous

Um.

Anonymous

Frog in a hole:

Anonymous

Chocolate

10:13 AM

「toad in the hole」だった

wwww

それ食べれへんｗｗｗ

ssb

that is the most chilled out frog i've ever seen

Anonymous

Oh, I looked up "frog in a hole" and apparently it doesn't involve eating a frog

Anonymous

(phew!)

Chocolate

ｗｗｗｗ

Anonymous

@ssb I don't really know frog words in English.

Anonymous

10:17 AM

When I was little, I had a book about different types of frogs.

ssb

I didn't think I did either

but then suddenly I remembered several different kinds of frogs

Anonymous

I remember one, the poison dart frog, with aposematism

Chocolate

こんなの

encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/…

ssb

horny toad

heh heh heh

Anonymous

10:17 AM

@Chocolate Oh! I've never seen that before

Anonymous

Maybe it's a UK food :-)

Anonymous

Oh, here we go, this is the poison dart frog I remember:

Anonymous

Chocolate

ひや～スゴイ色

Anonymous

Aposematism is responsible for a lot of really beautiful animals :-)

Anonymous

10:19 AM

Including butterflies!

Anonymous

Aposematism

Aposematism (from apo- away, and semantic sign/meaning), perhaps most commonly known in the context of warning coloration, describes a family of antipredator adaptations where a warning signal is associated with the unprofitability of a prey item to potential predators. It is one form of "advertising" signal (with many others existing, such as the bright colours of flowers which lure pollinators). The warning signal may take the form of conspicuous colours, sounds, odours or other perceivable characteristics. Aposematic signals are beneficial for both the predator and prey, both of which...

Chocolate

@snailboat 目が・・・エイリアンみたいなんですけど・・・・

Anonymous

Ohh, you're right

Anonymous

I guess a lot of frogs have all-black bulbous eyes like that.

Anonymous

Szymon

11:36 AM

I open the chat and what do I see? Frogs everywhere!

Chocolate

ｗｗｗ

こんなのもいたよね

encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/…

なんかうまく写真が晴れないのよね

貼れない*

ssb

12:50 PM

@Chocolate there you go!

Anonymous

1:13 PM

Oh, poor kinyo. The question's down to -6!

ssb

which one?

Earthliŋ

-6

Q: Does "名詞{めいし}" mean "noun", "形容詞{けいようし}" mean "adjective", etc

I am unhappy with the translation of grammatical 専門用語{せんもんようご}. The technical terms used to describe English and Japanese grammar should never overlap. I see words such as 名詞{めいし}=noun、動詞{どうし}=verb、形容詞{けいようし}=adjective、 carelessly interchanged. English grammar that does not exist in the Japanese...

grammar

ssb

oh gosh

it seems like an OK question to me

rambling sure but I think the point is clear

Anonymous

What's the answer? "No"?

Anonymous

Hmm...

Anonymous

1:17 PM

How about: "Verb is a language-neutral label and doesn't imply language-particular features. It is an English word, but does not describe only the English category of verb."

Anonymous

The same can be said of 動詞

Anonymous

> I see words such as 名詞=noun、動詞=verb、形容詞=adjective、 carelessly interchanged.

Anonymous

I don't see why I shouldn't just say adverb in English if I say 副詞 in Japanese

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

But if you say 副詞 in English or adverb in Japanese, does it imply you're talking specifically about the other language's category?

Chocolate

1:21 PM

@ssb あら・・・なんででしょ

Anonymous

Also, some categories might have undesirable translations, like 助動詞　～　"auxiliary verb"

Anonymous

Ever since it was pointed out to me that 助動詞 can be like 形容詞 or 形容動詞 etc., it seemed weird to me to call them "auxiliary verbs"

Anonymous

But I cheat and just call them "auxiliaries" :-)

ogicu8abruok

what does that mean? i don't know the japanese terms for japanese parts of speech

Chocolate

can とか will とか must とかって、auxiliary verb?

Anonymous

1:23 PM

The ～ない that you stick on verbs is a 助動詞

Anonymous

But it conjugates like an adjective, not like a verb, so you could call it "auxiliary adjective" or "auxiliary"...

ogicu8abruok

ah, ok that makes sense

Earthliŋ

@Chocolate あったり～

Anonymous

@Chocolate In English, yes, we have the modal auxiliaries (can could will would may might shall should must, etc.) and the primary auxiliaries (do be have)

Anonymous

But those are actually a type of verb

Anonymous

1:26 PM

Whereas 助動詞 in Japanese aren't always verbs...

Earthliŋ

@snailboat Hence "auxiliary verb"

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ So I try to think of 助動詞 as just "auxiliary" and not worry about the verb part :-)

Chocolate

日本語の助動詞って、例えば・・・「られる」とか・・・

Anonymous

That way it makes sense whether I'm talking about English or Japanese :-)

Chocolate

日本語には補助動詞もあるでしょう？補助動詞は英語でなんて言えばいいんでしょう

Anonymous

1:27 PM

@Chocolate Subsidiary verbs?

Anonymous

Hmm...

Chocolate

おお、それかな

Anonymous

We don't really have anything like 補助動詞 in English, do we?

Chocolate

補助動詞は・・・日本語では「もらう」とか「くれる」とかかな

Anonymous

Actually, Japanese 補助動詞 seem more similar to English auxiliary verbs than Japanese 助動詞, now that I think about it

Anonymous

1:29 PM

Oh, but that's confusing! :-)

Anonymous

I think 助動詞 and 形容動詞 in Japanese are named kind of strangely

Chocolate

「もらう」とか「くれる」は、「して+もらう」のように、「て」のあとに来るでしょう。「思い出す」とか「差し出す」とかの「出す」は補助動詞じゃなくて、

Anonymous

Oh, it's up to -5!

Chocolate

複合動詞かなあ？

へへ、私が+1したんで

Earthliŋ

@snailboat That would be expressed via "to [verb] to [verb]" or "to [verb] [verb]-ing", right?

Anonymous

1:33 PM

@Earthliŋ Umm, "to [verb] to [verb]" is a catenative construction (and you can keep adding more "to [verb]"s to it)

Anonymous

Oh, I can't discuss these things in generic terms

Anonymous

-4!

Anonymous

I rewrote my comment:

Anonymous

No, verb is a language-neutral term which doesn't imply any language-particular details. It does not imply, for example, the presence of participles. Verbs are different in every language, but that's no reason not to call them verbs. The same goes for the other parts of speech, at least in principle. — snailboat ♦ 8 secs ago

ogicu8abruok

i think stuff like the 出す in 笑い出すand the 込む in 入り込む are most similar to phrasal verbs in english

Anonymous

1:38 PM

Phrasal verbs are a syntactic concept which doesn't exist in Japanese

ogicu8abruok

but they map well

Anonymous

No, very poorly

Anonymous

"Phrasal verbs" are verbs plus particle or preposition phrases which sometimes have some idiomatic meaning

ogicu8abruok

yeah

出す is like "out"... "laugh out"

込む is like "in"

Anonymous

Oh, you don't mean that they're syntactically anything alike

ogicu8abruok

1:41 PM

they just feel similar to me

Anonymous

Oh, if I ignore syntax, I can see where you're coming from

ogicu8abruok

yeah they're not syntactically alike because one is a verb and one is a preposition

Anonymous

Well, and they don't appear in the same sorts of constructions with the same sorts of alternations

ogicu8abruok

ok i'll take your word for it ;)

Anonymous

Well, in English, you can light up a candle, or light a candle up. The particle up can appear on either side of the object, but there's a phonological requirement that the object be stressed, so when you use an unstressed personal pronoun, only one position is possible: light him up but not *light up him

Anonymous

1:46 PM

Whereas with a prepositional construction like look forward to the party, there's no particle shift: *look to the party forward

Anonymous

Etc.

Anonymous

Japanese doesn't have stuff like that :-)

ogicu8abruok

ok yeah that is totally different from japanese. but the preposition modifies the meaning of the verb in the same way that the second verb modifies the meaning of the main verb in japanese

Anonymous

Well, in Japanese, you have analytic and lexical compounds

ogicu8abruok

燃え上がる to flare UP

Anonymous

1:48 PM

So you have 落ち込む in which the meaning is not predictable from ～込む

ogicu8abruok

exactly, they are often idiomatic and unpredictable, just like phrasal verbs in english

Anonymous

But a lot of them are compositional, and new ones can be formed all the time

ogicu8abruok

can't you make new ones in english?

Anonymous

That wasn't meant to contradict what you said

ogicu8abruok

i don't know if "laugh out" is a real saying in english, but its meaning is pretty clear

ok. these are just some thoughts from a crank wanna-be linguist. take them for what they're worth xD

Anonymous

1:52 PM

No, no, I don't mean to minimize what you're saying

Anonymous

And anyway, you shouldn't take me too seriously

Anonymous

:-)

Anonymous

I just have syntax on the brain

ogicu8abruok

heheh ok

Anonymous

I've heard comparisons to some of these before, I think

ogicu8abruok

1:56 PM

how about this: can "ha" and "ga" act like copulas?

kare ga sarariiman

or is the copulaness somewhere else (in an implied "da" at the end)?

Anonymous

I think it's usually taken as implied

Anonymous

4:19 PM

2

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