Japanese Language

Anonymous

8:00 AM

> 単語が修飾して・されて、いくつかつながったものを「句」といいます。

Anonymous

I love that して・されて

Anonymous

In English, sometimes we write things like "buy/sell a TV"

rintaun

nice, haha

Anonymous

Which of course has led some people to start pronouncing the slash as "slash", giving us a new coordinator (in what is a relatively closed class of words!)

rintaun

yeah, that kind of distribution is pretty common in english

Anonymous

8:01 AM

"I'll buy slash sell a TV today."

Anonymous

Okay, that sentence is iffy. :-)

Anonymous

But people use slash that way.

Anonymous

I love that.

Anonymous

It always makes me wonder if anyone ever pronounces a 中点

Anonymous

Like, when you read 「単語が修飾して・されて、いくつかつながったものを「句」といいます。」 out loud, what do you do about the dot? You either ignore it or you pause a little?

rintaun

8:03 AM

yeah, pause a bit

Anonymous

I've noticed a fairly poor correspondence between the Japanese comma and pauses in speech

ちょこれーと

そうやな～どうかな～

むつかしいな～

読まないよね、普通

Anonymous

Like, when people say 1、2回 (another example of zero coordination!), you don't pause for the comma, do you?

ちょこれーと

つづけて「いちにかい」

Anonymous

I thought so!

rintaun

8:04 AM

I would, haha

for a half-beat

Anonymous

I always say it without pausing

Anonymous

But I'm bad at Japanese. :-)

rintaun

I mean, if I was reading something that has the comma in it, which admittedly is probably different

ちょこれーと

「単語が修飾して・されて、」を「してされて」と続けて読むと、

聞いてる人がわかんないと思う

「本・雑誌を」も「ほんざっしを」っていうと、

「え？なに？」って思う

Anonymous

Hehe!

Anonymous

8:07 AM

So you pause in those

Anonymous

And definitely don't just ignore it

Anonymous

I should put that in my notes

Anonymous

(A forty-thousand line text file, by now...)

ちょこれーと

人に読んで聞かせるなら、「本や雑誌を」とか「して、あるいはされて、」って読むほうが親切かな

rintaun

but is 「単語が修飾して・されて」 actually zero coordination? isn't the ～て a coordinator?

Anonymous

8:09 AM

I think it's like 単語が修飾して・(単語が修飾)されて

Anonymous

In meaning

Anonymous

I guess you can parse it different ways

ちょこれーと

書き言葉なのかも。読むための文章を書くなら、はじめから「したりされたりして」って書いたほうが読みやすいし

Anonymous

Oh, that makes sense

rintaun

yeah, that's true, but the て still seems to be causing the coordination. then subject and object(?) (修飾(を)) are being distributed through that coordination.

Anonymous

8:11 AM

So you wouldn't normally say something like 「〜して、されて、」 (where the commas represent pauses)

Anonymous

@rintaun Yeah, but...

ちょこれーと

普通の会話では言わないと思う・・・

Anonymous

What if you changed it to 「単語が修飾する・される」

Anonymous

Would that be any less valid now that it doesn't have a coordinator?

Anonymous

@ちょこれーと Thank you! That's helpful :-)

rintaun

8:13 AM

@snailboat that's a good question! :D

Anonymous

My instinct is that する・される parses the same way as して・されて here (ignoring the connection to the following phrase)

Anonymous

So they're in the same kind of relationship

Anonymous

That's why I feel て isn't the coordinator there

Anonymous

You could probably make an argument based on semantics, too.

Anonymous

されて isn't "following" して, and it doesn't have a "loose causal connection"

Anonymous

8:14 AM

They're logical alternatives, rather than て-related

rintaun

indeed, I parse it the same way semantically, but I think that in the case of する・される (assuming it is grammatical, which I believe it is) there is a null coordinator, while in the case of して・されて the て is the coordinator

both are coordination, so that the object gets distributed through that coordination isn't terribly surprising

hmm

@snailboat ok, that's an interesting point.

now I have to rethink this again, haha

Anonymous

In another sentence, I think して・されて could be coordinated by て

Anonymous

So maybe the semantic argument is the strongest one there

rintaun

yeah, it does seem to be being used in a similar manner to ～たり～たり though... I wonder if that is a more generally applicable usage

Anonymous

I saw another example of 〜たり without a following する the other day, but I didn't write it down

Anonymous

8:20 AM

I wish I did. I don't have any examples of that in my notes

Anonymous

Not counting 〜たりとも

rintaun

I have seen, on occasion, ～たり followed by a verb other than する

ちょこれーと

こんなのもあるみたい　note.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/detail/n151524

にたようなのも　amazon.co.jp/…

Anonymous

Ooh, a slash in Japanese

Anonymous

I'm always tempted to use slashes instead of middle dots.

ちょこれーと

8:23 AM

or って感じだよね、たぶん

Anonymous

It's one of my favorite punctuation marks. (Oh, no! I'm hopelessly nerdy.)

Anonymous

@ちょこれーと In English, the slash symbol is often pronounced or

Anonymous

Sometimes it's not pronounced at all, and other times it's pronounced slash

ちょこれーと

読むんだ！

へ～

Anonymous

It varies from speaker to speaker.

Anonymous

8:24 AM

Some people never pronounce it.

rintaun

here's another example of that in a paper: "〈新聞〉の中で書く/読むこと" repo.lib.ryukoku.ac.jp/jspui/bitstream/10519/3015/1/…

Anonymous

Hey! Tha's got a こと on only one side

rintaun

yeah

Anonymous

But I thought that was only ギリギリ大丈夫! ;-)

Anonymous

I just tried to tab-complete opening that file, and it got stuck at KJ0000 because two other files began with that string...

rintaun

8:25 AM

I don't know, it seems fine to me if it has こと at the end, haha

lol

Anonymous

I thought it would be okay when I originally asked about it.

Anonymous

I thought it would distribute over both conjuncts

rintaun

right

Anonymous

Ooh, it's even the title.

rintaun

indeed

Anonymous

8:27 AM

I take it back. 〈Angley quotes〉 are my favorite punctuation.

rintaun

ahahaha

I'm never sure which kind of quotes to use... I'm pretty sure it's just random and whatever you feel like at the time.

I mean, what else can it be when you basically use half the punctuation on a keyboard (and some others, too!) for quotation?

Anonymous

@ちょこれーと And you would pause in all of these, right?

Anonymous

する (pause) される

Anonymous

Or change it to したりされたりする

ちょこれーと

ですね～　つなげては読まない。

Anonymous

8:30 AM

In English, we pronounce some things differently than they're written. (I mean, pretty much everything, but I'm not talking about spelling)

Anonymous

I'm having trouble thinking of examples

Anonymous

Latin abbreviations like i.e. → "id est" and e.g. → "exempli gratia" at least, are commonly pronounced "that is" and "for example"

rintaun

I pronounce them "i.e." and "e.g." D:

Anonymous

Yeah! Some people do that, too

Anonymous

But you sound really pretentious if you actually say "exempli gratia"

rintaun

8:32 AM

２～５人 is common pronounced にからごにん, I believe, which is a similar thing

haha indeed you do

ちょこれーと

おおお

Anonymous

And besides, if you expand et al., you have to decide whether al. is "alia", "alii", or "aliae"

Anonymous

A feat which is beyond most pronouncers of stuff.

rintaun

certainly beyond mine, to even have known that! :D

ちょこれーと

ふたりからごにん、って読むかも？

rintaun

8:33 AM

sorry, 人 was a bad example maybe

２～５回

Anonymous

Oh, I always get confused with stuff like 2〜5人

Anonymous

にからごかい？

Anonymous

にかいからごかい？

rintaun

yeah, I think it'd generally be にからごかい

Anonymous

にかい　ないし　ごかい

ちょこれーと

8:34 AM

わたしは「にかいからごかい」って読む気がする・・・

rintaun

though 人 is an interesting case, since 2人 is ふたり

Anonymous

Here is where I demonstrate that I am not a pronouncer of stuff in Japanese.

ちょこれーと

そうなのよ！

Anonymous

I like having the 〜かい on both sides, because I feel like the 〜かい is part of the number word

ちょこれーと

「ふ・・・」ってなってしまう

rintaun

8:35 AM

one sec, I'll go do a quick survey. haha

ちょこれーと

で、「2～3回」は「にさんかい」になってしまう

Anonymous

At least, that's been my understanding--when you add a counter to a word, it really forms a single new word

Anonymous

Oh, but they're next to each other

Anonymous

So you're pronouncing it like 2、3回?

Anonymous

Is that right?

ちょこれーと

8:37 AM

同じだよね～いいのかな

Anonymous

「2〜4回」 would be different?

rintaun

O_o... what about if has 第? e.g. 第２～３回 and 第2～５回

Anonymous

Oh god

ちょこれーと

「によんかい」っていわないなあ

Anonymous

I've never thought about how to pronounce 〜 when it has 第 before it

Anonymous

8:38 AM

@ちょこれーと Okay, phew, that's what I thought :-)

ちょこれーと

第がついたら？むつかしい！

どうしましょｗｗｗｗ

Anonymous

だいにかい　ないし　だいよんかい

Anonymous

I like saying ないし hehe

Anonymous

I'm not sure I've ever had to pronounce 第２〜４回 before

ちょこれーと

だいにからだいよんかい、か、だいにかいからだいよんかい、になるかも

「だいに、よんかい」っていうとわからない

Anonymous

8:41 AM

I should probably stick to から instead of ないし, but it's so fun to say

Anonymous

@ちょこれーと But what about 第２〜３回? Can you say だいに、さんかい?

ちょこれーと

だいにからだいさんかい、か、だいに、だいさんかい、かな・・・？

Anonymous

It's weird having prefixes AND suffixes on numbers.

Anonymous

English doesn't have either of those.

ちょこれーと

「第2・3回」のほうがよくありそう

Anonymous

8:44 AM

I feel like one of them should attach closer, like

Anonymous

[ 第 [ 一回 ] ] or [ [ 第一 ] 回 ]

Anonymous

@ちょこれーと Oh, that makes sense

Anonymous

「第２、３回」も？

ちょこれーと

「第2～4回」とか、「～」は、数字が離れてるときに

rintaun

I just asked my dorm's 寮母 and her first instinct was to read 1～5回 as いちからごかい but then said いちないしごかい is ok as well

lol

Anonymous

8:45 AM

Aw, no 〜かい on the いち. Poor いち

rintaun

of course reading it as いっかいからごかい she found acceptable as well

but 1～5人 was only ひとり｛から・ないし｝ごにん

Anonymous

Ooh

ちょこれーと

おおお

Anonymous

That's interesting to me because 人 there seems to represent two different morphemes

Anonymous

〜り and 〜にん

Anonymous

8:47 AM

But I guess 〜り is in alternation with 〜にん, isn't it

Anonymous

Is ひとり usually analyzed as a suppletive form of いちにん?

rintaun

well, there is the example of 一人前【いちにんまえ】

Anonymous

Ooh

Anonymous

There's [ 一人 ] 前 and 一 [ 人前 ]

Anonymous

Coming of age, and one portion of food

Anonymous

8:49 AM

Right?

Anonymous

一人前　半人前
一人前　二人前　三人前

Anonymous

(I don't like the translation "coming of age" too much, but I had to put something)

rintaun

yeah, that seems to be a reasonable analysis

it's a hard word =/

Anonymous

Translating lots of stuff is hard.

Anonymous

I always feel like if I write an answer on JLU and include glosses for stuff, then I should include glosses for everything

rintaun

8:52 AM

that's the truth

Anonymous

And then I always hit some word where I'm not happy with the gloss

Anonymous

So then I think "I should just leave it all in Japanese and make them understand it in Japanese"

rintaun

yeah, I avoid glosses as often as I can, for better or worse

Anonymous

Suppletion in Japanese is also an interesting topic

Anonymous

I've seen a lot of different things analyzed as suppletive or not suppletive

Anonymous

8:54 AM

Whereas in English people seem to be mostly happy with just calling a few things suppletive

Anonymous

I should ask a question about intonation

rintaun

what is suppletion again? I'm rusty =/

Anonymous

In English, we have the verb go, but no goed

Anonymous

We instead borrow a form of wend, which is went

Anonymous

It's not related by etymology, but it fills in for the gaps in go's paradigm, and it's in robust alternation

Anonymous

8:58 AM

So we can say it's a suppletive form of go

Anonymous

Likewise ひとり filling in for いちにん, I think

rintaun

ah ok

Anonymous

People also use the term where an etymological connection might be possible but has not been shown

Anonymous

I think

Anonymous

ない is another example, filling in for the missing form *あらない

Anonymous

9:00 AM

Whereas if you look at an irregular verb like くれる or いく, the irregular forms (くれ rather than *くれろ, いって rather than *いいて) are not suppletive

rintaun

aha, that makes sense

Anonymous

I've been bad and haven't been putting stars next to stuff I should be starring.

rintaun

me too =(

Anonymous

0

A: What separates なき from なし？

なき can never be used to end a sentence. In Classical Japanese, なき is the 連体形 of なし, which basically means it modifies nouns: 海なきところ - a place without an ocean On the other hand, なし is what you use at the end of a sentence: そのところは海なし - that place doesn't have an ocean In the Muromachi ...

Anonymous

I think the question might be asking about なき and なし in modern Japanese, rather than classical...

Anonymous

9:05 AM

Since both なき and なし are still around in a limited capacity

Anonymous

And I was thinking 〜なき can be used anywhere 〜ない can be used, as a poetic/literary form

rintaun

aren't they used in modern Japanese in (basically) the same way they were in classical?

Anonymous

But now I'm not so sure

Anonymous

@rintaun さあね

Anonymous

I think 〜なし often shows up in lexicalized contexts like 迷いなし (?)

Anonymous

9:07 AM

Although I don't actually know if that's lexicalized.

Anonymous

See, I don't know this stuff.

Anonymous

It looks like 名詞＋なし

Anonymous

And なし didn't assign a が-role in 文語

Anonymous

So I guess I was just assuming it was fossilized grammar

Anonymous

Can you just stick 〜なし on any noun in modern Japanese?

rintaun

9:15 AM

I believe you can, yes... but interestingly, I don't believe it can function like modern 終止形. it becomes an adverb, I think

Anonymous

I kinda thought it was like a noun.

rintaun

I think it becomes an adverb?

Anonymous

I've been using the word あるなし each chance I get

rintaun

generally followed by に or で

Anonymous

Lessee.

Anonymous

9:17 AM

I need to learn this stuff.

Anonymous

I've always just sort of processed 〜なし without ever thinking about it

Anonymous

The Green Goddess has examples for で・と・に・の・だ・∅

Anonymous

The example with nothing following is 貧乏暇なし

Anonymous

I guess that's a single lexical item

rintaun

well then, I stand corrected :D

Anonymous

9:21 AM

アスピリン・砂糖なしの錠剤 an aspirin-free, sugar-free tablet

Anonymous

I'm going to write that one down :-)

rintaun

yeah, now that you mentioned it, I have definitely heard and even used なしの

Anonymous

My brain didn't accept 〜なしだ without a fight

Anonymous

「文句なしだな」

Anonymous

Oh, nice question about 〜たり〜たり！

rintaun

9:24 AM

:D

Anonymous

I was taught that that is ungrammatical. But then, things always seem to get more complicated when you explore the corners

Anonymous

Sometimes I don't know where my metaphors are going. Sometimes I think they go there without me

Anonymous

> 立ったり座ったり働く
> 立ったり座ったりして働く

Anonymous

> 話したり笑ったり食べる
> 話したり笑ったりして食べる

rintaun

ohhh, interesting

I didn't notice that you can just shove して in there

Anonymous

9:26 AM

I wanted to call it してveling just now, but I realized that would be unfortunate if you romanized it

Anonymous

Oh, shove, not shovel.

Anonymous

I like shoveling して into sentences.

rintaun

ahaha

it's hard for me not to read "して" in that sentence as english "shite"

Anonymous

Haha, I'm sorry!

Anonymous

I would say ごめんください, but I recently learned that it doesn't mean the same thing as ごめんなさい

Anonymous

9:28 AM

detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q13103568438

rintaun

nope not at all lol

Anonymous

I also learned that a long time ago

Anonymous

Sometimes I learn things a bunch of times.

rintaun

fair enough

thinking about it, I'm not sure I've ever actually said ごめんください

Anonymous

It's a skill. I figure if I learn everything enough times, I'll eventually remember some of it :-)

rintaun

9:31 AM

hey, humans are all about repetition

nothing wrong with that

Anonymous

> A. 立ったり座ったり働く
> B. 立ったり座ったりして働く
> C. 立ったり座ったり働いたりする

rintaun

hmm, I think that last one's a bit different

Anonymous

If someone says A, do they mean B?

Anonymous

It looks like it's different.

Anonymous

But I don't know for sure what A means.

Anonymous

9:34 AM

That's why I thought I'd include it

rintaun

that's how I'm reading it, A=B≠C

Anonymous

That's my guess! :-)

rintaun

though there was one example I came across that gave me pause, which maybe I should include in my question

「のんびりしたりうろついたり食べるのが好きです☆」

I can kinda see that one going either way...

Anonymous

I'm looking through this right now, at like, example 18

Anonymous

Or 27

rintaun

9:41 AM

...why are those examples in there, and not mentioned as aberrations?

Anonymous

Oh hey, that reminds me--I think できる is usually called a suppletive form of する (filling in for the missing potential form, but unrelated by etymology)

Anonymous

Haha.

Anonymous

Where's the する!

rintaun

exactly!

Anonymous

Look at 30-32 and the paragraph above the examples

rintaun

9:42 AM

can you use たり with adjectives? e.g. 美しかったり、醜かったりする?

Anonymous

Yes, and with だ (だったり)

rintaun

ok

Anonymous

「〜綺麗だったり」

rintaun

can you mix verbs and adjectives and だ?

lol

Anonymous

I did it once, to some bemusement :-)

rintaun

9:44 AM

ok, looking for 30-32 now that I've finished editing my question

Anonymous

But I had to try! You can see why I had to.

rintaun

yeah, because ～たり is a pretty cool thing!

I'm going to have to read this entire paper, aren't I? =/

Anonymous

Oh, I like the examples with あるいは between the final two conjuncts

Anonymous

That seems fancy. I should say あるいは more often

Anonymous

37 is interesting, too

rintaun

9:55 AM

"可愛いかったり美しい"

if you can do it with verbs, why not adjectives!

Anonymous

Page 22 lists what the sources in parentheses refer to

Anonymous

I was wondering why sentences were labeled (中学生) and (恋人)

rintaun

ooh... I was trying to figure out how they were semantically related =/

that makes way more sense

Anonymous

Well, I saw the 中学生 label and thought "Okay, so this was written by a 中学生", then I saw one labeled 恋人 and thought "Waaaaitaminute"

rintaun

lol

Anonymous

9:59 AM

(I figured it out before I got to 死者, which would have been even funnier)

Anonymous

Or wait, morose

rintaun

(I was about to ask :P)

Anonymous

Well, I was thinking they wrote it after they died. Y'know, zombies!

Anonymous

Zombies are funny.

rintaun

jeez, it's already 7pm and I completely forgot to eat both lunch and dinner ><

Anonymous

10:00 AM

Oh no!!

Anonymous

You need to absorb some nutrients.

Anonymous

Otherwise, your brain won't absorb facts!

Anonymous

At least, not as well.

rintaun

yeah, half the days I'm suffering from some level of sleep deprivation, too. it's a wonder I learn anything in any of my classes D:

Anonymous

Oh no!

Anonymous

10:02 AM

(She says, at 2AM)

rintaun

ok, time to run to the コンビニ I guess. see ya! o/

Anonymous

Okay! Have a good food and such!

rintaun

10:46 AM

man, every once in a while they have these ツナわさびマヨおにぎり. they had three and I bought them all because they are so delicious

i want them to just always have them. but instead they like to tease me with their lack of delicious things =(

Anonymous

11:22 AM

Ahh! I like delicious things

Anonymous

I've gone ahead and flagged it for removal. Thanks for the heads-up. Cheers. — X5748 31 mins ago

Anonymous

I'm reluctant to remove it.

Anonymous

It has a helpful answer. Actually, I'm kind of sympathetic to having questions like this on the site. True, it doesn't show any effort on their part to figure out what it means. But it asks about what is essentially a single construction, not a complex sentence.

Anonymous

It would be better if they explained what their problem with understanding できる was, but it doesn't make a really big difference in a question like this...

Anonymous

There aren't enough things they could be misunderstanding

Anonymous

11:26 AM

Oh well, that's just how I'm thinking about it.

Anonymous

I don't want to remove a question with a useful answer that might help people in the future. Maybe we could edit it very slightly to say something like "What does できる mean in this context? It doesn't seem to mean to be able to do like it usually does." — snailboat 2 mins ago

Anonymous

@TokyoNagoya I was saying to rintaun that I didn't know what 〜たり〜たり meant without する, so I was only guessing :-)

Anonymous

I wanted to add して to both examples

Anonymous

I guess 「こん」 can be こんにちは or こんばんは? I haven't talked to people who say こん

Anonymous

11:49 AM

I was thinking that if V1たりV2たりV3 meant something, it would probably be one of these two:
1. V1たりV2たりしてV3
2. V1たりV2たりV3たりする

Anonymous

I wanted to add して but I couldn't tell which it was supposed to mean, so I listed both

ちょこれーと

12:59 PM

こん。

ssb

おっす。

Anonymous

こん！

Anonymous

Ohh, people only say こん online?

Anonymous

I know people who say "lol" in person.

ちょこれーと

チャット用語らしいです

ノシ　とか　おか　とか

ノシ＝さよなら

おか＝おかえり

Anonymous

1:08 PM

I actually thought ノシ was a picture of an arm waving, hehe

ちょこれーと

そう、そうなのよ

Anonymous

Ohh :-)

ssb

おつですー

i've learned a lot of these playing ff14

Anonymous

How about this 〜たり〜たり: 「もう出たり入ったりはナシだ」

Anonymous

Is it weird that する is missing?

jkerian

1:12 PM

snerk... "British and U.S. intelligence officials say they are worried about a "doomsday" cache of highly classified, heavily encrypted material they believe former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden has stored on a data cloud."

Is it a fluffy and white cloud? or one of those "slightly grey, might-rain-soon" types of clouds...

ssb

1:24 PM

he stored it on ison

that's what all the conspiracy theories were about

jkerian

@ssb That is not a cloud though.... -_-

ssb

that's what they want you to think

ちょこれーと

@snailboat イイと思います

Anonymous

@ちょこれーと Is it possible to add する? I don't see where it would go

Flaw

Maybe Xたりするのは?

rintaun

1:37 PM

I'm really confused about @TokyoNagoya's answer to my question... I have no idea what to make of it.

I think I'm going to edit in some full-sentence examples for those phrases

Anonymous

The rule "you must always have する after 〜たり〜たり" doesn't seem to always be true!

Tokyo Nagoya

You are confused because you are already seeing "meanings" in the phrases that are not there by the native speakers' standards.

ちょこれーと

「もう～たり～たりはなしだ」は「もう～たり～たりするのはなしだ」とも言えるかと・・

Anonymous

@TokyoNagoya When I read rintaun's comment, I thought his confusion was: "How come it's wrong in examples A and B, but it's okay in example C? What makes these examples different from one another?"

Anonymous

A = 「立ったり座ったり働く」 (wrong)
B =「話したり笑ったり食べる」 (wrong)
C =「のんびりしたりうろついたり食べる」 (right)

Anonymous

1:43 PM

What makes C right but A+B wrong?

rintaun

@snailboat That is exactly what my confusion is.

Tokyo Nagoya

C ends with 食べるのが好きです, not 食べる. That is the difference.

Anonymous

Oh, so my problem here is that I didn't quote C in its entirety

Tokyo Nagoya

Besides, I did say " makes sense in informal speech" about C.

Anonymous

That makes me wonder if 「話したり笑ったり食べるのが好きです」 is okay (if not strictly grammatical)

Tokyo Nagoya

1:46 PM

informally ok.

rintaun

"acceptable in informal speech" is "grammatical" to linguists, just for the record

Anonymous

Well, it's okay to use "grammatical" to mean "grammatical in the standard language", if there is a grammatical difference between standard and non-standard language

Anonymous

I think

Anonymous

But yeah, the grammar of informal language is interesting too

Anonymous

(It's usually more complex than the grammar of formal language...)

rintaun

1:47 PM

informal language and standard language are not mutually exclusive

Anonymous

That's true, too

Anonymous

Although we're getting into murky waters, where things are not defined really well. I think the idea of "standard but informal" is relatively recent

rintaun

for example, "wanna" is standard english, and grammatical, if "informal" english

(in regard to american english. I am not an expert on other major varieties)

Anonymous

Well, in theory terms like that are neutral with respect to language

Anonymous

But 標準語 doesn't seem to mean quite the same thing linguists mean when they say "standard language"

rintaun

1:51 PM

essentially no native speaker of standard american english would ever bat an eye when someone says "wanna". it is perfectly natural. that is "grammatical"

Anonymous

Although I'm not even going to attempt to describe the difference. Too confusing for me. :-)

Tokyo Nagoya

I never said anything was grammatical or otherwise. I even stated that I did not like bringing grammar into a discussion of informal speech. All I pointed out was which ones sounded Ok or not ok to me, a native speaker.

rintaun

yeah, sorry, that was definitely a tangent

I wasn't asking about whether those phrases were acceptable as standalone sentences, though.

I was asking whether those were grammatically (i.e. even colloquially or informally) possible constructions. So saying that 話したり笑ったり食べるのが好きです is acceptable but that 話したり笑ったり食べる seems like nonsense to me

for example, 切りて is not acceptable in modern japanese, even if that phrase is put somewhere else

Anonymous

By the way, see The Morpholexical Nature of English to-Contraction for the grammar of wanna, especially section 7.8 for discussion of variability: some speakers accept %"Who do you wanna drive the car?" and others do not

Anonymous

(Since you brought it up :-)

rintaun

1:59 PM

yeah, I don't

lol

Anonymous

Me neither!

rintaun

I wasn't aware that it was acceptable in that instance

Anonymous

It's not to all speakers, but to some (a minority) it is

rintaun

neat!

Anonymous

That's a pretty funny paper, by the way

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