Japanese Language

Schoko

2:46 AM

@snailboat あら・・・

なんか残念

（あまり参加しなかったけど）

@snailboat 戻りましたね・・・

私とスネイルさんとレレさんが

嫌われていましたね・・ｗｗ

私とレレはんは、コメントで反論したので、恨まれたんだろうけど・・

スネイルさんはなんでだったのか・・

Anonymous

Maybe because I pointed out they put "sensei" in their own name

Anonymous

I don't know :-)

Schoko

@Flaw 覚えてるかどうかわからないけど

最近、気づきました。

(照)

がいいかな、って。

Flaw

なに?

Schoko

「恥ずかしい」「照れる」

ちょっと違う？

You asked me:

If (泣) is used to express crying, (笑) for laugh, then is (恥) used for blushing?

in May 2013

二年半前！？

Flaw

3:01 AM

hmmm

I think I did

Schoko

(〃∇〃)

（照れた顔）

(///▽///)

(＃∇＃)ゞ

Flaw

I'm surprised you remember

I can't find the chat history for that question haha

Schoko

(＃´∇｀＃)

Flaw

ah found it!

@Schoko (⁄ ⁄•⁄ω⁄•⁄ ⁄)⁄

Schoko

3:19 AM

あっ

間違って自分のコメントにpinしてしまった

外せないｗｗ

できたかな？

焦った

二年半前じゃない、二年前だったわ

Anonymous

4:33 AM

Thanks to snailboat's book recommendation, I now understand that Japanese has a double nominative structure, so I think I get what you mean now about "not the subject", abstractly. Concretely, though, do you agree with @naruto that dare-wa hanbaaga-ga hoshii ka? would also be an option for asking "Who wants a burger? (who is the wanter?)"? — Owen_R 1 min ago

Anonymous

Isn't that 誰は ungrammatical?

Anonymous

I know native speakers use は with question words under a few very limited circumstances, but this doesn't look like one of them to me . . . ?

Anonymous

4:48 AM

I can't wrap my head about the は that naruto is saying is okay

Yang Muye

Not the first time I saw native speakers use 疑問詞は.

Anonymous

Me either, but this sentence isn't like the ones where I've seen it . . .

Anonymous

> 誰はもらって誰はもらわないというのはよくない

Anonymous

> 「兄さん、じゃもう一つ聞きたいんですがね、人間は誰でも、他人を見て、 誰は生きる資格があって、誰は資格がない、 などとそれを決める権利を持ってるものでしょうか？」

Yang Muye

I saw people use 疑問詞は in direct questions.

Just like the one in that answer.

Anonymous

4:50 AM

I've seen examples like the ones I quoted, which I've been told are grammatical when a group of people is being divided 100% into two groups

Anonymous

Dec 13 '14 at 4:08, by broccoli forest

何は良くて何はダメかちゃんと教えてください

Anonymous

@YangMuye Did you write down any examples when you heard them?

Yang Muye

5:33 AM

books.google.com/…

生成文法がわかる本: 生成文法をできるかぎりやさしく解說　町田健 - 2000

> 「誰はどこに来たって?」なんて文だったら、「誰」の後だったら「が」に決まってるじやないか、こんな文間違いだよ、とする人もいれぱ、でも、恕まには言うかもしれないか‌ら正しいんじやないの、とする人もいるんじゃないでしょうか。

だそうです。

Anonymous

5:45 AM

Oh, there are some little OCR errors there . . .

Anonymous

> 「誰はどこに来たって？」「なんて文だったら、「誰」の後だったら「が」に決まってるじゃないか、こんな文間違いだよ、とする人もいれば、でも、たまには言うかも‌しれないから正しいんじゃないの、とする人もいるんじゃないでしょうか。

Anonymous

Interesting that た with a ＊ turned into 怒!

Yang Muye

Really. That た turned into 怒 is nothing special. Its failing to recognize じゃ, which is a extremely frequent pattern, surprised me.

Schoko

恕=怒?

Anonymous

Oops!

Anonymous

5:58 AM

My meager kanji-reading skills didn't even notice it was 口 and not 又 :-)

まあ細かいことは気にするな

恕　←　知らない・・・

I didn't either.

読めない

ゆるす？

5:59 AM

へえ！

Yang Muye

I can't find it in the dictionary...

Schoko

おこるのと、ゆるすのとでは、意味がすごく違うのにねえ。

Yang Muye

kotobank.jp/word/%E6%81%95%E3%81%99-295901

Anonymous

It's in 新漢語林

Yang Muye

「じょす」

Anonymous

6:01 AM

As ジョ or ゆるす

Schoko

意味は反対で、漢字が似てるなんて

おもしろい

Yang Muye

左右

Schoko

あはは、確かに

Anonymous

It doesn't look like very a common character

Yang Muye

I believe many foreigners may get them wrong...

Anonymous

6:03 AM

@YangMuye I forget which way to write the first two strokes in each character :-) But I don't think I mix them up

Anonymous

Some people have trouble remembering which directions left and right are

Anonymous

Anonymous

I remember because growing up, I had a friend who couldn't remember left and right (and he was otherwise fairly intelligent), and he showed me the trick: if you put your fingers together and stick your thumbs out, your left hand makes an "L", but your right hand doesn't :-)

Yang Muye

I write --- first. But It seems that wring / first is more smooth when wring fast.

Anonymous

Ohh. I love writing Chinese characters, and I practice, but I'm not very good at it :-)

Schoko

6:05 AM

@snailboat なるへそ

Anonymous

18

Q: Stroke order for left and right

Why are the stroke orders for 右 and 左 different? 右 starts with the vertical stroke, and 左 starts with the horizontal one.

Anonymous

That's a very strange question. Can you find the source that shows different stroke orders? (YOU doesn't say where the images come from either). I've personally learned: 1st horizontal then vertical strokes. My old kanji book shows a same stroke order (horizontal first) and my 3 Chinese dictionaries show the same order as well for both characters. — repecmps Jun 11 '11 at 7:27

Yang Muye

@snailboat Me too. Because I write with my right hand, every time when I'm not sure, I try to write something, then I know which side is left, which is right.

Anonymous

@YangMuye Oh! That's a good trick! I'll remember that one, too :-)

Anonymous

1

Q: Usage of ～を好き outside of embedded clauses

日本語文法の初心者です :D In general, を is not used with 好き because 好き is a na-adjective: 彼は猫が好きです。 — correct 彼が猫を好きです。 — incorrect If this part is "embedded" as a clause, を is also acceptable, and this phenomenon is asked and answered in other questions in this site: Why is を used in this ...

grammar particle-wo

Anonymous

6:14 AM

I read in a linguistics paper that with inchoative expressions like 好きになる, using を instead of が is considered acceptable by more speakers than with 好きだ

Anonymous

But I don't have a "rule" or "explanation" for that, it's just something I read . . .

Anonymous

Oh! @Schoko, are you still here? :-)

Anonymous

Or @l'électeur

Anonymous

"dare-[ga/wa] hanbaaga-ga hosii?"; both correct but there is a difference in nuance. I would say "dare-ga" form is far more common. I also think "dare-ga hanbaaga-wo hosii?" is also natural, but for now I can't find the explanation why wo is suddenly acceptable here. (At least this question is related) — naruto 2 hours ago

Anonymous

Does this use of 誰は sound good to you . . . ?

Yang Muye

6:18 AM

左, 右, 有 You see, whether to wring --- first or / first depends on the direction of the next stroke. But nowadays, everybody just copies the printed font, so this stroke order does not make sense anymore.

Anonymous

@YangMuye Oh, I see! That would never have occurred to me . . . I can't see your links

Yang Muye

oops..

Anonymous

It makes sense now that you explained

Yang Muye

shufa.com/zd

Anonymous

Thank you :-)

Yang Muye

6:19 AM

Try searching by yourself, check 草书, and click 提交查询

istrasci already mentioned it.

Anonymous

Oh, I missed that

Anonymous

I must have read it before and forgot, since it's right at the top of the answer!

Anonymous

Well, sometimes my brain doesn't work very well :-)

Yang Muye

There are a lot of dictionary stroke orders that do not make sense if you just stare at 楷書 or 明朝体 not knowing anything about calligraphy.

Anonymous

I always wondered why 辶 was written last

Anonymous

8:33 AM

{1-2, Sorry, let me retract what I've previously said. "dare-wa" is virtually never used except in some rare idioms. Edited my answer.}{3 Finally I found this question. So i-adjective hosii is from the transitive verb hossuru, and that's probably why X wo hosii is sometimes acceptable.} — naruto 14 mins ago

Anonymous

Retracted!

Anonymous

But the quote Yang Muye found does say 「たまには言うかも‌しれない」・・・

Anonymous

Well, I know there are some rare constructions where it's possible.

Anonymous

Martin gives several examples, but they all seem restricted to very specific uses.

Anonymous

Since I'm just learning, I try to keep my mind open to the idea that I might have something very fundamentally wrong all the time :-)

Daniel

9:36 AM

Hi, I found this exxpression in shin chan: かんぴょうする. His mother is ill, and he says he's going to do that. But when I look up かんぴょう it appears as strips of dried gourd. Is it maybe some kind of soup or something?

I also found 寒気するのよかぜひいたみたい where I don't get the のよ (everything else yes)

Anonymous

10:17 AM

Maybe you should double check whether it says かんびょう or かんぴょう :-)

Daniel

it's ぴ, for sure

the circle is very clear

Anonymous

Is he very young?

Daniel

a kid, yes

Anonymous

Maybe you could post it as a question on the main site

Anonymous

I wonder if he was pronouncing 看病 funny, given that it might be a harder word for a small child...?

Daniel

10:26 AM

it would make sense

The thing is, I got those 2 questions plus another more complicated one, so I'm going to post the complicated one

Anonymous

Okay! :-)

Daniel

I wouldn't want to saturate the page with 3 consecutive posts of mine

Anonymous

Would you understand the のよ if it had a comma afterwards?

Anonymous

Or some kind of break anyway

Anonymous

I guess it's better explained on the site than by me in chat anyway :-)

Anonymous

10:38 AM

Oh, the て question is great! :-)

Earthliŋ

11:59 AM

@snailboat I seem not to have flagged the question on main as duplicate when answering the duplicate question on meta. Sorry!

0

Q: Resources for slang and dialect differences

Is there a website where one might find a list or dictionary of different dialects (not just Kansai dialect) or "slang" of certain regions or prefectures?

discussion resources

Yang Muye

1:20 PM

7 hours ago, by Schoko

@snailboat なるへそ

I didn't notice it's not なるほど

7 hours ago, by Yang Muye

I write --- first. But It seems that wring / first is more smooth when wring fast.

And I don't know why I wrote “wring” twice.

Maybe because I've been reading too much about “wiring” recently...

@snailboat Ancient Chinese people wrote top to bottom, so they hated to move their pen up and down. 辶 is often sometimes written like ㄘ without the horizontal bar in cursive script, so that it can be joined to the next character.

Darius Jahandarie

8:50 PM

Is there an actually decent guide on when it makes sense to use 御? 「公⽤⽂における漢字使⽤等について」 says that you should always use it with words written with 漢字 (御案内, etc.), but that seems like an extremely uncommon choice. As far as I can tell, お／ご are pretty much always written in 平仮名... unless you're going for the "my text is a giant block over super formal kanji" look, which one almost never is since it feels suffocating.

Anonymous

I think it's very often in kana but I see kanji sometimes too. If nothing else, kana has the advantage of telling you whether it's ご or お :-)

Anonymous

Of course, there are other readings . . . like in 御御御付

Anonymous

In words like 制御 or 防御 (note: here it represents a different morpheme, a sound-based substitution for 防禦) it's normally written

Anonymous

I think it might be a little more common in words where the honorific prefix has been incorporated into the word, like in 御飯, but even then, ご飯 is more common

Anonymous

Here's what the NHK漢字表記辞典 says:

Anonymous

9:05 PM

Wait, this is long. It'll take me a minute to type it up :-)

Anonymous

> 接頭語
> 　「御」について
> 　●「お」は表外音訓なので、かな書きとする。
> 　　〈例〉お礼〔▲御〕　お酒〔▲御〕　お菓子〔▲御〕
> 　●「ゴ」はひらがな優先とするが、漢字で書いてもよい。(注1)
> 　　〈例〉①ご案内　②御案内　①ご無沙汰　２御無沙汰
> 　●「ギョ」「オン」は漢字で書ける。
> 　　〈例〉「御物(ギョブツ)」「満員御礼(オンレイ)」
> 　●「み」は、表外音訓なので、原則としてかな書きにする。
> 　　〈例〉み心〔▲御〕　み霊〔▲御〕
> 　　〈例外〉錦の御旗
> 　　「み」の前に助詞の「の」などひらがながあると誤読のおそれがあるので要注意。
> 　　〈例〉「神のみ心」「先祖のみ霊」
>
> 　(注1)「御所」「御陵」のように、「御」を除いては一言とならない語は原則として漢字で書く。

Anonymous

So that's interesting, I didn't realize out of お and ゴ that only the latter was included on the 常用漢字表.

Anonymous

I see that only three of the five readings are listed: ギョ・ゴ・おん

Anonymous

Which is of course in agreement with what the NHK dictionary says :-)

Anonymous

But even though it says that, in actual practice, I think writing み in kanji is much more common.

Anonymous

9:14 PM

> み霊 2911
> 御霊 198913
> み心 4345
> 御心 115147

Anonymous

Part of the choice with ご might simply be up to the aesthetics of the writer.

Darius Jahandarie

Thanks for typing that in (as always)! That seems like a much more realistic description of things.

By the way, you mentioned some time ago that most of all you're doing lately wrt Japanese is reading things... I was wondering, how much time do you spend reading Japanese stuff on average?

Anonymous

I dunno, probably several hours a day usually

Anonymous

If I spend too much time reading my mind starts to zonk out

Anonymous

My poor brain :-(

Anonymous

9:26 PM

I've noticed that as time passes, the amount I can read before my brain turns off increases, though :-)

Anonymous

Sometimes I read more anyway if I'm being obsessive!

Anonymous

Which . . . I tend to be, more than I should :-)

Darius Jahandarie

Oh wow, that's a lot of time!

Any reading material recommendations?

I kind of haphazardly picked some stuff out of 紀伊国屋, along with one or two recommendations from friends.

Should probably do something a little more principled than that.

Anonymous

9:54 PM

Well, it depends on what you like to read :-) I actually started out picking out random books and I had trouble getting into them, so then I decided to read some translations of novels I liked in English. I know that translations tend to be a bit different stylistically, but that was really helpful for me.

Anonymous

I read lots of things, though. Like, if you're interested in reading about Japanese grammar, there's a lot of writing on Japanese done in Japanese :-)

Anonymous

And there's a never-ending supply of linguistics papers online.

Anonymous

I know you watch anime, and a lot of anime is based on light novels or the like.

Anonymous

響け！ユーフォニアム is interesting because in the original books, everyone speaks 関西弁, but in the anime, they changed it all to 標準語!

Anonymous

Reading translations of novels from English is something that has pros and cons. I found it really helpful at first because I never got totally lost if I misunderstood something, because I already knew the general plot from reading it in English.

Anonymous

10:01 PM

Also, I've always found translation really interesting, regardless of the language pair and direction.

Anonymous

I like reading things in multiple languages :-)

Anonymous

As for novels written in Japanese, I suppose it depends on what sorts of books you like . . . How about 宮部みゆき? :-)

Anonymous

By the way, you can get a lot of Japanese books pretty cheap. The other day I quoted Kuno's 日本文法研究, which I got for $5 used

Anonymous

That's one book about grammar you could read from cover to cover if you were interested in it. A lot of the books I have about Japanese grammar are more reference-like and reading them cover-to-cover is a lot harder on the brain . . .

Anonymous

10:21 PM

2

Q: Is へ and に interchangeable in these cases?

I'm just starting to learn Japanese. I am not quite understand about one of the uses of the captioned particles. I've learned that に refers to the location of destination, and へ refers to the direction of the destination. But my friend told me they are interchangeable and に is colloquial and へ is...

grammar particles particle-ni particle-e

Anonymous

Kaori Kabata wrote a paper titled Interchangeability of so-called interchangeable particles: Corpus analysis of spatial markers, Ni and E

Anonymous

Besides grammatical differences like ×にの being ungrammatical and への being grammatical . . .

Anonymous

And に in general being more common when both can be used . . .

Anonymous

They didn't really find that there was a correlation between the type of verb semantically and the choice of へ or に

Anonymous

They did find collocations with certain nouns, like, そこへ is quite common

Anonymous

10:27 PM

Hmm, I should re-read this

Anonymous

> Compared to the native speaker judgment data, に's dominance over へ as a spatial goal marker was much more robust in the spoken and written corpus data, with the frequency ratios of へ to に at roughly 1 to 8 and 1 to 5 respectively. While native speaker ratings in the judgment test indicated a higher acceptability of へ in sentences with a focus on the source, へ was not found any more frequently than に with source-/path-focused verbs in neither the spoken nor the written corpus.

Anonymous

> On the other hand, there was a strong preference for に in contexts with a focus on the endpoint of a movement, both in the experimental data and in the corpus data. Although noun type exhibited interaction with particle choice with verbs with a meaning related to 'enter' in the native speaker judgment test, the corpus data indicated that に is preferred in such contexts regardless the size of the location.

Anonymous

It does look like there are differences between spoken and written usage

Anonymous

But I don't think it's as simple as the OP's friend said it was

Anonymous

They're both used in both writing and speech

Anonymous

10:32 PM

Although both への and especially へと are found much more often in writing

Anonymous

> For the grammar point in discussion, 「に」 targets the destination and 「へ」 refers to the direction of the destination.

Anonymous

I've read this a lot, but へ developed a similar usage to に in the Heian era . . .

Anonymous

So I think there's more overlap between the two than that statement suggests

Anonymous

11:24 PM

Shibatani's Non-canonical constructions in Japanese (2000) is freely available online: lib.kobe-u.ac.jp/repository/81001551.pdf

Anonymous

The revised version, published as a chapter in Non-canonical Marking of Subjects and Objects (2001), is really formatted much more nicely, though!

Anonymous

I didn't really realize until I was looking at it yesterday that it was different from the version online.

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