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12:37 AM
morning
 
good morning
 
is it morning where you are?
it's 9:30 here
 
I'm in Australia, so it's like an hour ahead of Japan ATM
 
ah!
I can't fix the timezone on chat room. can you
 
don't know. the display time for messages looks to be local time here (so your message displays as 10:37 for example)
 
12:42 AM
Ewwww...
 
???
 
Haha, nvm... I don't know anything about how things work online yet
 
:) most of Stack Exchange displays as UTC, it surprises me it's local time
 
へ~そ~なんだ~
 
12:55 AM
@ChrisHarris this probably doesn't add much, but I wonder why "big-mouthed" isn't the antonym of "small-mouthed" in English?
there's probably some etymological reason, I don't know what
Wiktionary says that the expression "slack-jawed" used to refer to a person who talks a lot (en.wiktionary.org/wiki/slack-jawed)
and the expression "tight-lipped" seems to me to be close to 口が堅い
 
1:16 AM
I dunno, there's Big-Mouth Bass and Small-Mouth Bass
 
The 軽い in 口が軽い is more like 軽率, 軽はずみ, 軽々しい, right? One of my J-E dictionaries says 口が軽い means "talkative" but one of my E-J dictionaries says "talkative" is お喋りな。お喋りな is different from 口が軽い。
 
although, I have to admit I don't know if they're exactly opposite kinds of fish...They're both bass...
 
@silvermaple sry, I was talking about "small-mouthed" not being the opposite of "big-mouthed" (as in overly talkative)
 
Oh, duh
That's what I get for not reading the whole thing
So anyway, how's everyone doing?
 
Contemplating this redd.it/x2woh
 
1:25 AM
I can say from my personal experience, that if you stick to it every day, Anki helps so much
I took a JLPT practice tests some months ago, and got 40%ish on the vocab/kanji section...Took one again a couple weeks ago and got 60%
and I've been doing my Anki vocab on a more-or-less regular basis
 
I have something like 15000+ words in my vocab list which I could never hope to review them all...
 
Oh that is a lot
 
I'm almost tempted to nuke them all and start again
 
Is that the total number?
My N1 Vocab list is 2694 total
the hard part is that it takes a while to see an improvment
It seemed to me I wasn't learning anything for a real long time
 
Wow, lots of people in chat. Hi all
 
1:32 AM
Hey Flaw :)
 
hey :P
just calculated then: 22,489 cards in total
all of my words are in separate tags from the books I read, like say "Elfen Lied" etc, every time I see a word I don't know I tag it
 
@silvermaple I haven't been doing anything measurable either. So a couple of days ago I bought a N3 excercise book for 読解 and 語彙
 
wow! Where'd you get that deck?
How are they working out for you?
 
I made them myself
I don't use Anki though
 
I've only managed a couple of questions before slumping into bed. I've been sooo lazy recently.
 
1:36 AM
Oh, I hear you on that
 
I've been reading through an English grammar book written in Japanese I picked up for $1
 
Nice :)
 
it's amazing how much you don't realize about English until you read about English grammar
 
Agreed.
 
I've learned more about English, my native language, from Spanish and Japanese classes then anywhere else
 
1:39 AM
same :D
 
But anyway, I think I would recommend starting over, or making several, smaller decks, @cypher
 
20k+ seems a little intimidating haha
 
well, it seemed like a good idea to tag them at the time...
 
I'm actually finding that just re-reading the same manga/book etc over again can be more effective than using flashcards, cause it forces you to look at it in context
 
1:43 AM
I try to do both, really
not a manga, a shyousetsu
but it's fun and for shyounen, so yay!
 
I learnt a large amount of the Japanese I know from Manga
 
It's easier to remember things that are linked to some experience than simply just a card.
2
Not limited to your own experiences, but vicarious experiences of stories too.
 
You get a gold star :) You're absolutely right
Unfortunately for sheer volume, it's hard to beat flashcards.
 
Flashcards: More haste, less speed.
 
I find that I do my flashcards, and if I ever see one of my words in an actual context, it's eaiser to recall and after that point it's pretty much rock solid in my mind
If I hadn't seen them in flashcards, I would look it up, go "oh, ok" then keep reading and most of the time forget it
@Flaw Hmm? What's the difference between haste and speed?
 
1:49 AM
It's an idiom, meaning that you rush, but get nowhere.
Actions are hasty, but not actually covering any distance.
 
Ah, yes, but are you talking about flashcards in general, or spaced repetition decks like Anki and the like
 
flashcards in general.
 
but spaced repetition works really great
 
Ah, yeah, cramming flashcards doesn't do any good, except for the shortterm
 
1:51 AM
it forces the information to enter procedural memory
 
I love my Anki decks, they're helping me so much :)
Exactly
 
Anki is great for me, since I can do it at work
 
Yeah, that too
 
I started making an addon for anki in python
but, I havent been working on it lately..
 
Oh that's cool though
 
1:58 AM
wow, I think we might have a record for the number of people in the chat room at once, 7 people :D
@ChrisHarris what sort of addon?
 
Well, I was experimenting with a hotkey that opens up a widget showing the stroke order for a kanji
at the same time it greys out the answer buttons so you must select again
but, its not flexible enough, so I stopped working on it
 
What does that mean in this context?
I barely know the first thing about coding
 
what data do you use for the stroke orders? (or does it call something which shows the strokes?)
 
@cypher I was having a really hard time with that.
Its dirty, but I opened a webpage in a widget to yamasa dictionary and selected only the kanji stroke order area
It would be nice if there was a database somewhere that held stroke counts and orders that could be called easily..
 
I use the Tomoe/KanjiVG data in my projects
I talked about them a bit on the resources thread (meta.japanese.stackexchange.com/a/773/796)
 
2:05 AM
I will check that out!
@silvermaple basically, if you hit a key it opens another window which shows some additional information about the kanji or word
 
oh neat
:)
But why isn't it flexible?
 
if it is a single kanji, it parses it to open a window with stroke order and such
if it is a word it opens a space alc kind of list with word usage
 
Oh, that's super useful
I'm always switching over to JED to look up different kanji or whatnot
 
it isnt flexible because it is limited on parsing specific kinds of cards.
Yeah! So, thats why I thought I should do something so I didnt have to do that either
I dont like switching windows all the time
Maybe I'll start working again on it. I'll let you know how it goes if you're interested
 
Oh, I see
And yeah, it can get kind of cumbersome, that's true
 
2:27 AM
Hey, so I just watched an episode of a drama, and I couldn't find the English for the name of some kind of drug
it sounded like マイヤク but I can't find it anywhere...I thought it looked like cocaine, but I'm not an expert
This evil cult dude was spiking the water with it to induce a sort of trance...
does anyone know what that might be?
 
Is it just a general term for drug?
 
Myヤク?
 
I think まやく?
 
Not まやく?
 
oh, that could be it
 
2:32 AM
麻薬
 
It sounded like an "i" noise, but I've been wrong before :)
 
What the heck? 9 people?
 
マイ薬www
 
麻薬 is no cocaine
ww
 
but could it be? if it's just generic?
 
2:33 AM
I thought it could be cocaine if its generic
 
麻薬 is 大麻, マリファナ
 
oh yup, they're saying まやく
 
hemp, marijuana...
 
oh really? a table got knocked over and there were what looked like bricks of white powder
I'm not doubting what you're saying though :)
 
narcotic, drug...
So cocaine is normally white power?
 
2:41 AM
I think so
I've never done it, but on TV and stuff that's what it is
 
cocaine is a kind of narcotic?
 
of course!
 
Haha I've never done it either
Then 麻薬 is narcotic, and
the thing you saw on TV is cocaine
 
Ok, awesome :) Well, not awesome, but still
and we usually say "drug"
 
I confused 大麻 and 麻薬
I thought they were the same thing
 
2:44 AM
from my understanding a narcotic is a strong kind of drug, but even if X-drug is a narcotic, we usually just call it a drug
 
Yeah I think we often call it ヤク
Shortened form for 麻薬 or 薬物 I think
 
I thought 大麻 only referred to pot, or marijuana (which is the same thing...also "weed" "dope" and a looot of others too)
do you ever call it just 薬?
 
Yes your're right 大麻 is marijuana
 
or is that just what you take when you're sick?
 
くすり?
 
2:46 AM
yes?
Oh, rikai-chan is telling me that is just for legal drugs
 
薬[くすり] refers to medications, 薬[
薬[やく] is drug
 
oh, well, that I did not know
 
Isn't medication a subset of drugs?
 
yes
 
I think we normally write it as ヤク
 
2:48 AM
oooh
Well, that's really interesting
 
... when we refer to illegal things
薬[くすり] includes cough drops, ointments, tablets...
 
I remember not knowing any word but くすり, and I was watching a drama with my little host sister, and the mom on the drama was an addict, and I asked if what she had was くすり. She said yes, but I had a feeling there was a better word for it
 
Ah~~ yes we sometimes use くすり to mean illegal drugs too
 
Oh, well that makes me feel a little better
 
When it causes no condusion
*confusion
 
2:52 AM
Oh, I see
 
ヤク is more like a slang
which is more used by the police, mafia, gangsters ...
 
Huh, interesting :)
 
More correctly, it's called 薬物[やくぶつ]
 
As an aside, you can edit your chat messages if you need to (up to five minutes after you've posted). This system is different from most chat systems.
It's in the pop-up when you click on the arrow on the left.
 
So you'll hear やくぶつ, not ヤク, on TV news
 
2:55 AM
Oh yeah!
 
arrow... I got it -- thank you --- :)
 
Oh, it's one of those things, I see :)
 
3:06 AM
well, it's been a long one, time for me to turn in
Goodnight everyone :) zzzzz
 
( ゚o゚ )オ(゚▽゚)ヤ( ゚・゚ )ス(゚━゚)/~ミー
 
おやすみ~^^
 
'nite silvermaple
 
'morning~ =P
 
That LearnJapanese subreddit is interesting... if you want to see what JLU could be like if we allowed every learning/resource/tech-support question, it's a great example
Hell... I'm half tempted to add that (a link to the subreddit) to the header in my FAQ about disallowed questions on JLU meta
 
3:10 AM
I'm looking at memrise (from the Tae Kim blog post mentioned earlier)
 
@Troyen how's it look?
 
it's...interesting, bit early to judge its effectiveness
I also need to look at one of the more difficult sets
 
I have trust issues... I really don't like letting anyone else make flashcards for me
and, actually... this "Japanese Intermediate Grammar" sortof demonstrates why: 満足(まんぞく)する - satisfaction
one side of that flashcard is a verb, the other is a noun... sure it's a quibble, but I see that sort of thing constantly even in published material
 
I have a hard time maintaining my own set. I made about 230ish for the Heisig book and then ran out of index cards, and the stack is too unwieldy.
 
If you're going to do RTK, kanji.koohii.com is really the way to do it
 
3:15 AM
You can edit it, I think, it's community-driven (then again, that means for words you don't know, you won't know how reliable it is)
RTK?
 
RTK - Remembering the Kanji (Heisig's book)
 
I sort of gave up on that when I ran into base words that I had no idea what they meant in English
 
I think the heisig method is great, but the book isn't
You do have to actually look up the kanji, since sometimes the keywords he chooses are a bit deceptive
 
He says not to, but I can sometimes use it on kanji that I just struggle to memorize - or pairs of kanji that I mix up a lot (like 営 vs 堂)
 
so, for each new kanji, the process is: Look at the kanji, examine the keyword, look it up on jisho.org (you can search by Heisig# there), look at all words containing that kanji, filter by common... verify that the keyword makes sense for some of them... proceed with the method
 
3:20 AM
I'm currently using KanjiBox to give me a study set, and a general test. It groups kanji by JLPT level, which is good and bad. The downside is, there isn't much of an example system, so I can't learn vocabulary in a lot of contexts.
And also it pulls the definitions from Jim Breen's dictionary, which means all the uncommon readings are listed first. :/
Do you know a good digital flashcard program?
Like if I run across some words I have to look up as I'm reading something?
And want to remember them later (because they might show up later in the story)
 
Hmm... what do you mean?
so... not like an anki import script, more like a short term list?
 
Where I can store a word, a definition, maybe an example sentence (or better, have it find some automatically), and review words later on
 
Hmm... I generally just use anki for that
(make a 2 column text file while reading something, and use the import mechanism)
I have noticed that there's not really a good program out there for doing more serious translations though.
 
"This list contains every kanji from the game "ゼルダの伝説 時のオカリナ"." -_-
 
haha
 
4:14 AM
Do you guys really use RTK? I've never been able to "get it to work" for me..
 
I went through it at one point... and promptly took a complete break from Japanese for 4 years
I'm surprised how much I still remember
 
Did you create your own mnemonics? Or use someone else's?
 
When I was doing it before, I used Heisigs... then when I picked up Japanese again, I discovered that many of those mnemonics were "less than perfect", which has caused me to take up the process I describe above
I change... probably 10% or so of his mnemonics this time around
 
I see, well I can probably relate with you on the "less than perfect" part
Currently, I just throw new words into Anki, and I don't really care about the kanji at all
 
I basically only use anki for kanji...
well... sortof... my vocabulary lists in anki are mostly kanji-focused
There's the occasional random word I come across... but I find that I rarely need to bother adding it
 
4:25 AM
oh I see, I guess I would call mine "compound focused"
jukugo focused(?)
Thats cool that so many people use Anki
I always find myself promoting it unintentionally
 
One problem with anki is that alot of people confuse "getting my flashcards done" with "studying Japanese"
 
you mean, stop studying after finishing what their allotment is for the day?
 
yeah
or even... just defining "doing flashcards" as studying Japanese... that's sortof true, but it's really only handling the "solidify my vocabulary" part
 
yeah, that is a shame (>.<)
I'm trying to kind of do like an AJATT method I guess
That way I can keep studying enjoyable and get other things done.
@jkerian: Did you take Japanese classes? ..Or are you living in Japan?
 
I took some classes years ago, and then did a 6-7 month stay in Japan... then stopped studying entirely
Several years later I picked it up again, along with a few other decent hobbies... then started working at a large company with a fair sized Japanese branch
Since then I've been sent over there for short term business trips, and am hoping for a 2 year assignment in Yokohama... probably next summer
The odd gap there has produced some pretty funny durations on cards... I need to go through my anki deck and cull any cards that won't expire for another 10 years.
Frankly... if I still need a flashcard to check if I know what 電車 is... I've probably given up the language
but, when I'm not going to see it for 10 years, how much do I really care about that card?
 
4:44 AM
That makes sense. I don't think I've ever had a card get to even one year old though. Then again, I haven't studied for that long.
Do you keep just one deck then?
 
I remember a handful of words from RTK
 
I used to have a couple of decks... folded them all into one about a year ago
Note that I did RTK the first time with physical cards... and now do it only on kanji.koohii.com, if I was doing RTK in anki, I'd definitely put that in it's own deck
 
I feel like I'm missing out since I didn't really use rtk..
 
Do you put compounds in your deck or just straight kanji?
 
only words, phrases, and sentences
 
4:51 AM
so you don't study kanji alone?
 
only on kanji.koohii
But I study kanji in a book... and then add common words that involve that kanji and other kanji that I know to anki (unless the meaning/reading is so obvious that I can't imagine getting it wrong)
 
@jkerian: what book are you using? If you don't mind me asking?
 
OH! I used that book
 
I didn't find the two basic books all that special... but the Intermediate ones are quite nice
There's nothing wrong with BKB I and II... but I imagine other publishers have pretty similar offerings that would work just as well
 
4:56 AM
You're probably right. BKB I and II, I used those exclusively for about a year
but then I had to do some extra work in order to get to the level of the intermediate ones
 
Yeah... there's a gap there
hmm... I'm feeling the need to have a moscow mule... afk a moment
 
I don't quite understand why you'd want a Russian donkey, but w/e...
 
ginger beer, juice of a lime, and vodka :)
One of the best things ever brought to us by conniving businessmen :)
The story is that someone was trying to introduce vodka to the american market. Someone else was trying to sell copper mugs, and someone else was trying to sell... probably the ginger beer or whatever. Anyways, the three of them got together to promote their products, and the "Moscow Mule" was one of the major things they were advertising. (traditionally served in a large copper mug, of course)
 
 
3 hours later…
8:06 AM
Anybody knows how to force an increase in frames per second for games like touhou?
 
 
4 hours later…
11:55 AM
Same for me, but it was Latin!
But a book called "The Fight for English" suggested that people tried to impose on English rules that didn't belong to it, that instead belonged to other languages. It made me question a lot of grammar rules I had grown up with. http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Fight-English-language-pundits/dp/019920764X
I'm currently learning the kanji by typing a word using romaji into my IME (google translate in my case), seeing what the first option is, and checking if that word has the same meaning as what I was trying to type in. Talk about "write only code"!
I'm not sure if it's a good or bad way to learn. Depends on whether I want to be able to write kanji by hand at some stage, and how much Japanese I want to learn, I guess.
It's frustrating when native English speakers use "it's" as a genitive when providing "corrections" in lang-8.com . lang-8.com/217290/journals/1595793/Kitty-%2526-Kiss lang-8.com/217290/journals/1569754
Let's see if chat automatically expands links to "the oatmeal":
@Flaw today's lesson talked about -たい form today. It triggered memories of an episode of 古代少女ドグちゃん where ドグちゃん is saying 行きたい!行きたい!
that I had watched a few days before.
@Chocolate I used to wonder whether Kyoto is a major city, or mainly a tourist destination. Finding out that it's the former has made me more likely to visit it. A place just being a tourist destination would make it feel less "real" to me.
 
12:23 PM
Ah~~ I thought you were in Japan now so I thought you'd been to Kyoto at least once
 
@Chocolate I would like to ask you a question (I might post the question on the main site).
 
@AndrewGrimm If you are visiting Kyoto, you should come here in spring or fall. Maybe winter. But not in Summer...
 
For 五段 verbs (e.g. 会う), the potential form of 会う is different from its passive form i.e. 会える/会われる. But for 一段 verbs it is always られる.
 
@Chocolate I'll next be coming to Japan in September, for Sapporo RubyKaigi.
 
Is it possible to interpret 会われる as a not-ら抜き potential form?
 
12:28 PM
会える=can meet, 会われる=honorific, ・・・
Hmmmmm
 
The itinerary for my September trip has a grand total of four bullet points so far. gist.github.com/3154209
 
開けられる = can open, 開けれる = ら抜き = can open
 
食べる、食べられる、食べれる
 
Can ら抜き be "reversed" from 会える to give you 会われる = can meet?
 
会える+れ=会われる?
 
12:30 PM
Morning all :)
 
No~
 
@AndrewGrimm AH, is that where we get the "no split infinitives" rule
 
Hi silvermaple.
@AndrewGrimm I'm not familiar with that show sorry =(
 
There's no ら抜きform for "can meet"
食べれる+ら=食べられる、
開けれる+ら=開けられる、
会える+ら=??
 
or rather +わ
 
12:33 PM
会われる??わ抜き言葉?
 
do they go through X抜き ?
 
Hmm I've only heard of ら抜き
 
わ抜き, か抜き, た抜き etc. is there such a thing?
 
たぬき??
聞いたことないですね~
 
ぶつ → ぶたれる + た抜き → ぶてる ?
 
12:35 PM
Oh, ぶたれる=passive,
ぶてる=potential,
I think.
 
Because 開けれる +(らぬき reversed) = 開けられる
 
Yes~~
 
Does it mean ぶてる +(た抜き reversed) = ぶたれる ?
 
ぶてる is different from ぶたれる、
So it's not たぬき言葉。
 
I guess ぶたれる can never be interpreted as a potential form
 
12:38 PM
狸て・・・ww
 
ら抜き should apply only to 一段 verbs and there is no similar concept for 五段 I think.
 
Right
 
I was thinking of 狸 too haha
 
ww
I think when ら抜き happens, られ becomes れ
because られ is めんどくさい to pronounce
 
But can the ら抜き forms be passive forms? They can only be potential forms right?
 
12:44 PM
Ah! ほんとだ・・・
食べられる can be "can eat" and "be eaten"
but 食べれる can only be "can eat"
 
Thanks for your insight in this matter
 
No I think I'm not teaching but I'm learning from you
I think Japanese learners know more about Japanese grammar than I do
 
But I don't instinctively know if something is correct or not.
I can only guess based on rules
And sometimes rules are not followed for languages
 
Right~~ I feel the same way when I learn English
 
So I'm grateful for having native speakers around to say "sometimes the rules don't apply, this may be an exception case"
 
12:52 PM
Naruhodo~
 
Another question, what is the difference between とにかく and それより?
They both change the topic of the conversation.
 
Ah~ like "anyway"
とにかく sounds to me like you're summing up
 
= つまり ?
 
あ、似てるかも・・・
 
does それより change the topic with even greater strength than とにかく ?
 
12:56 PM
but つまり is like "in short," "in other words"..
それより can be used to change topics, yes
それより can be used to suggest something else, something better,
How about going to karaoke?--それよりさ~クラブ行かない?
 
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