I want to check something: Deadeye Navigator can soulbond to any creature when that creature enters the battlefield (even if it already has a bond, even if that creature is the opponent's), right? And it can blink any arbitrary creature for 2UU, right? (1U to blink Deadeye so as to pick a new bond, and another 1U to blink the newly bonded creature.)

@doppelgreener Soulbond only works on creatures you control

Must be unpaired

702.94a Soulbond is a keyword that represents two triggered abilities. “Soulbond” means “When this creature enters the battlefield, if you control both this creature and another creature and both are unpaired, you may pair this creature with another unpaired creature you control for as long as both remain creatures on the battlefield under your control”

and “Whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, if you control both that creature and this one and both are unpaired, you may pair that creature with this creature for as long as both remain creatures on the battlefield under your control.”

Okay, so if I cast creature A, and bond Deadeye with it, I cannot then cast creature B, and bond Deadeye with that because Deadeye already has a bond.

Correct

You could however blink Deadeye and when it returns bond with Creature B

Right, so I can at least still blink any creature I control for 2UU (or 1U if it's already paired to Deadeye, of course).

Yes, as long as that creature isn't paired with Silverblade Paladin (for example)

Ok. I've been trying to figure out recently why some treat it as a scourge of EDH, but at least it is not quite as powerful as I'd read it. If it could soulbond with enemy creature, it would be a card that says "{1}{U}: no, that opponent doesn't get to have that enormous token they just created."

Oh, wait, the blink ability would be under the opponent's control anyway. You can't blink their creature for them. Duh.

@doppelgreener It is annoying because it is a part of many infinite combos, which unless you have instant speed removal you can't do anything about.

And even without going infinite you can still get a lot of good ETB triggers for a very low cost. Imagine 4 Diluvian Primordial triggers the turn after it is played. (And that isn't even that bad, it was just the first thing to come to mind)

@diego oh dear.

or four Combustible Gearhulk triggers for explosive fun.

@diego Wait, doesn't "for as long as you control both of them" in the soulbond text imply that once you blink the bonded creature it loses the bond - do you "control" a creature in exile?

But when it re-enters, you can re-bond it

If it doesn't itself have soulbond, why would anything happen when it re-enters?

@Air From the rule I quotes earlier: “Whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, if you control both that creature and this one and both are unpaired, you may pair that creature with this creature for as long as both remain creatures on the battlefield under your control.”

In other words, Soulbond triggers when any creature enters the battlefield under your control, as long as the creature with Soulbond isn't already paired with anything.

Ahh. I didn't realize (never played that format).

Now I see the "either" in the text on the card.

Hm... now I've come to a potential crossroads in making this Surrak Dragonclaw Temur EDH deck. I *could* make it an RG goodstuff beatdown deck, but with cards like Taurean Mauler and Deepglow Skate and Rubblebelt Raiders and Ridgescale Tusker plus all the Simic goodstuff, I could orient it toward +1/+1 counters and growth.

which could be weird and fun.

@doppelgreener You mentioned you were also planning an Abzan deck, was that going to have a +1/+1 counter theme? If so I would personally not make a second deck with the exact same theme

@diego I've decided not to go ahead with that one since the Atraxa deck is so similar.

@doppelgreener Do you have a specific sort of counter you focus on with Atraxa?

@diego Atraxa is primarily about huge creatures via +1/+1 counters.

@doppelgreener Then I would not make Surrak focus on +1/+1 counters as well.

That's a fair point. :)

You can keep a minor +1/+1 theme if you're going wide. (Psuedo-)anthem effects are always nice

I would maybe go for some sort of creature based control deck. With creatures with Flash and good ETB effects. Mostly because when you pull out Surrak that is probably not going to be the deck people expect to see.

That *would* be kind of fun for both me and my fellow players to be genuinely surprised by that. I *might* even be able to talk myself into putting Kheru Spellsnatcher into that deck. (Still, that mana cost.)

Kheru Spellsnatcher + Willbender + Jeering Instigator + Den Protector = "I don't know what that face-down creature is but maybe I'd better get rid of it. Unless it's either of those blue ones."

@doppelgreener That's what ramp is for. (You'd want ramp anyway because creatures with ETB are usually going to cost more than if the ETB were on an instant or sorcery)

If it's Temur creature based control, I could use Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Circle of Elders, Somberwald Sage and Rattleclaw Mystic as a start for ramp.

Depending on your color balance Karametra's Acolyte would also be a good option

Oh, good point. So might Gyre Sage.

(it's not a +1/+1 counter-themed deck, but that's a card that will net me 4-5 mana if it can survive long enough.)

I'll trial Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in there.

Nykthos seems probably suboptimal in a 3-color deck.

@murgatroid99 I agree it could wind up that way.

This will probably be a permanent heavy deck, so it might be ok. How well it does will probably depend on how prevalent removal is in your meta

It'll vary. We've got someone who sometimes plays with a Sheoldred, Whispering One deck which is fairly oppressive.

I recently lost to a RG landfall deck. Was one of 3 players off'd by an X burn spell

(in separate turns)

Here's the prototype Temur Surrak Control deck. It's got a mixture of hard control, pressure & havoc to break up a stalled board & encourage opponents to beat each other up (e.g. Grenzo or Goblin Spymaster), some removal, and some aggression for just punching people in the face.

I could probably go harder on control, & cut some non-creatures for ETB creatures.

it's at 96 cards yet.

It may have too much ramp, Fevered Visions and Assault Suit and Stormbreath Dragon might be totally unnecessary.

Ah, so you are either in the early phases of building, or you have diverged from your usual "gather 150 cards, then trim it down"

You probably want Mystic Snake and Draining Whelk if you are trying for control. Also probably more creatures with Flash.

@Rainbolt I'm in the early phases of building and a bit more disciplined than before. I've also got an unusual focus that doesn't already have 99 cards I want to put in, and I've already got most of these actually sitting right here in a box behind me, this time!

@diego In they go.

I've never seen Draining Whelk before. I like that one.

@doppelgreener I agree that Visions and the Suit are probably not useful in this deck, the Dragon could be good however. It is good at dealing damage, and its Monstrous ability is good against other control decks

@diego On the back of my mind is that I may use Praetor's Counsel then have someone steal my Stormbreath Dragon and turn it monstrous, but if they do that, they earned destroying me that way. :)

Yeah, I was thinking you'd have more counterspells attached to creatures, like Stratus Dancer

@doppelgreener That is what you have counter spells for :)

Thanks. [add add]

Venser, Shaper Savant is also good as a 'counter'.

I might use Brutal Expulsion as a version of him that costs me much less (and can deal a couple of points of damage to something worrying)

Void Winnower effectively says "you can't cast your commander if its CMC is even", I just noticed.

I probably already told this story here but I'll retell it again anyway: my fiance and I are playing 2HG. I control Akroan Conscriptor and opponent controls Stormbreath Dragon. We lose if opponent does nothing at all. Then we start building a stack. 1. I target Conscriptor with God's Willing to take control of stormbreath. 2. Opponent responds by attempting to make stormbreath monstrous. 3. I target Conscriptor again with some other instant to take control of stormbreath again. Now imagine what happens next

(Gods Willing*)

I think the mtg card tagger is breaking my lines

@Rainbolt Yes. It breaks markdown parsing used in the same post and that seems to include newlines.

I also lagged and double posted. Whoops.

@Rainbolt You gain control of Stormbreath and then it becomes monstrous? :D

Exactly, using mana our opponent's spent

Hahaha, I love it.

And deals a bunch of damage because it's better in 2HG

Our opponents got really pissed off. If something like that ever happens to me I will be smiling from ear to ear, because there is no better way to lose

Oh, I have an opportunity to use Dominus of Fealty!

Those mana symbols!

In a tri color deck, can you afford a five symbol dual color card?

<- No idea how easy the mana is in EDH

@Rainbolt I think so. I have 10 ramp cards at the moment, and 5 are quite capable of adding red or blue.

Did you play Standard in Theros block at all? I ask because Nightveil Spectre was a hassle to play on turn three in a mono blue deck, solely because of Mutavault.

Actually, 8 of the 10 I have flagged as Ramp can add 1-3 red or blue under most circumstances.

@Rainbolt I did. I also played an archetypal Theros Master of Waves deck with a single Mutavault in it, and just delayed putting down that Mutavault until turn 4 or later.

I ran four Mutavaults and it was the bane of my existence lol

oh dear

Anyway I'm sure I won't get Dominus of Fealty out realiably on turn 5, but I'll have other things to play at that point, and I'm confident I could get it out reliably on turn 8 or later.

Are any of you going to Grand Prix San Antonio? It's team modern format

I have one teammate, and have a lead on a third

I have actually never played (tournament-level) Modern

(hmm. Selvala's Stampede might be unwise for a deck with a lot of primarily-reactive creatures.)

@murgatroid99 I encourage you to try it out sometime. Once you get over the initial frustration, it can be pretty exhilarating to beat someone who is doing everything they can, including a few underhanded tactics, to beat you. You don't get much of that playing locally (at least in my experience). I enjoy local games too, but the biggest thrill for me is winning competitively.

And honestly the second biggest thrill for me is losing competitively. Either way it's a thrill.

I do play Legacy. I just haven't played other competitive formats

Oh, right. I forgot about that

Have you been to a Legacy Grand Prix?

I haven't, but I'm considering going to Vegas

That might actually be the only one this year

I'll be in Vegas. You'll easily be able to find me because of my unusual last name

Guarantee you I'm the only Rainbolt that plays Magic

My last name is "Lumish". I'm pretty sure almost everyone in the country with that name is related to me, and I don't think any of them play Magic either.

Sounds like a pokemon

I don't actually think I've heard that one before

How do people normally abuse your name? In grade school I got called Rainbow (which sucked) and Chief (which was awesome)

Or was that sarcasm and I just missed it...

I just didn't really get mockery based on my name in school

v2 of that deck done. More counters & control spells, less noncreature stuff.

Link for v2?

v2 Temur Surrak Control: tappedout.net/mtg-decks/temur-surrak-control. Considering adding: Animar, Soul of Elements, Argentum Armor, Deadeye Navigator, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Venser, Shaper Servant

@doppelgreener I would add Deadeye for sure, Animar and Venser would also be good. I don't think the Armor and Edric would be good for this deck.

@doppelgreener Prophet of Kruphix?

@Rainbolt Banned in EDH.

oooh

Here's the announcement. "Casual groups haven't been able to work around it and problematic play has not dropped off in hoped-for ways. Instead, the primary approach has been to steal it, clone it, run it yourself, or get run over. Ultimately, it seems the card is too perfect - it does everything U/G Commander players want to be doing and it does it in a way that makes counterplay difficult."

Though for Edric it partially depends on how people react to him. Where I am the response is kill his controller (or at least him). If their response is to kill each other then he could be ok.

"Yes, U/G is the most popular color combination in Commander, but we've reached the point where Prophet is driving U/G deck choice, rather than vice-versa."

Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is also a good control option, and it helps your non-flash creatures get flash

And Seedborn Muse is a nice combo with him for a build-your-own Prophet

Leyline of Anticipation?

If you want some hate and card advantage, Rhystic Study is always an option

@JonTheMon "Do you pay 1?" "Do you pay 1?"...

Since you have Shaman of Forgotten Ways, Cyclonic Rift might be a good option if you don't mind "Oops I win"

@doppelgreener How about See the Unwritten instead of Rishkar's Expertise?

@diego Oooh... that's a tough one, though it's an 18 mana "oops I win".

Cyclonic is an instant, so you can cast it just before your turn begins

@Rainbolt Oh right.

[FURROWS BROW AND FURIOUSLY RUBS CHIN]

Except that you also need Shaman and creatures with total power 8 or greater to activate the "you win" ability

So you'd probably generally want to Rift in response to the ability, then play one creature with flash while the ability is still on the stack

Rift only returns creatures your opponents control, so you can have 8 power beforehand

Err, to clarify: creatures you don't control. I guess that matters in two headed giant.

I want to see the face of someone who just got rifted by his partner in 2HG pre release for Return to Ravnica.

@Rainbolt These are a really close one for me because of that draw power on Rishkar's Expertise, & the two different methods of gaining creatures are both pretty good and powerful.

Oh, oops. I was mixing it up with an effect like Coastal Breach

Wow, what a jerk card lol

I've never seen Coastal Breach before, but in a 6 player game it seems super annoying

Have you seen Primeval Protector and Stonehoof Chieftain?

@Rainbolt It's like Cyclonic Rift, except at Sorcery speed and with a significant disadvantage to the person who plays it too. Yes, it's also cheaper, but recasting your stuff is expensive

@murgatroid99 Unless you've got a deck full of sweet, delicious ETB effects.

I've worked in See the Unwritten, Teferi, Animar, Deadeye, and Venser.

Cyclonic Rift, Rishkar's Expertise, Seedborn Muse and Yasova Dragonclaw sit on the sideboard. Perplexing Chimera is also there --- it's having an effect on my opponents but then it'll have an effect on me when I use it, so I'm not sure.

@doppelgreener I think being unsure is kind of the idea with Perplexing Chimera...

@Jefromi It's quite perplexing

I think I should add Beastmaster Ascension in there, since it's so creature-heavy.

Perplexing Chimera is interesting because it basically just stops some spells from ever being cast

@murgatroid99 Because nobody ever wants to see them stolen?

Well, nobody will ever play an overloaded Cyclonic Rift while an opponent controls a Perplexing Chimera

@murgatroid99 Ha! Good point.

If you target some other creature with a kill spell, they can usually just kill the Chimera instead, making it sort of like a Spellskite for some removal

Sideboard's currently just: Beastmaster Ascension, Cyclonic Rift, Perplexing Chimera. I'll leave out Seedborn Muse for now and avoid having a Prophet of Kruphix engine going.

@doppelgreener I think Seedborn Muse is powerful but acceptable in EDH. The problem with Prophet is that it's Seedborn plus another powerful ability that syngergizes with the first one, for basically the same cost

@murgatroid99 I agree, though I'm not sure what to swap out for it, and at this point I'm content the deck's going to be decently powerful.

(every time, I look at that land column and go "gosh if only I could remove some of those.")

Though I probably could go down to 36, maybe 35 lands, given the ramp I have & the fact almost all my spells are in the 2-6 mana range.

... I'll swap out Xenagos for Beastmaster Ascension, at least. They fill pretty similar roles.

no, wait, they do something similar but not the same and one can't be countered. i'll approach this another day and figure it out then. :D