Board and Card Games

Feedback from a group testing draft including some local pros: Dampening Pulse, Brood Monitor, and Roil Spout are insane, as are most of that gold cycle, 3 mana green fight card is meh, don't first pick ulamog, unless nothing else is pick worthy, evolving wilds should be higher pick in this format than usual, 19 and even 20 land decks are definitely viable.

Blue retreat is terrible, white retreat is great, black retreat is terrible unless playing the lifegain synergy deck, green and red retreat currently are very mixed opinion-wise.

murgatroid99

What gold cycle?

Rainbolt

Gold cards are multicolored cards

murgatroid99

Oh, right, I was thinking "rare"

Waterseas

The uncommon gold cycle I believe is what was referenced

That's a fair interpretation though XD

murgatroid99

I can't tell what cards are in that cycle

Waterseas

9:37 PM

Roil Spout, Grove Rumbler, Grovetender Druids, Drana Emissary, Resolute Blademaster, Skyrider Elf.

murgatroid99

I'm not sure what makes those a "cycle", but OK

Waterseas

So argumentative

Rainbolt

I was scratching my head too, but I didn't feel like saying something

Guess I did now...

Sorcery with Awaken, creature, creature....

murgatroid99

There's 6 cards, they're not all the same type, they're not all allied colors or all enemy colors, and they're half of all of the multicolored non-eldrazi cards in the set.

Waterseas

Jesus hell, love how much you enjoy arguing semantics

Don't even know why I bothered offering the free info.

Rainbolt

9:41 PM

I think you need to calm down

Waterseas

Ehh, tired of the numerous times semantics are argued in this chat.

murgatroid99

If you're going to use a word that has an established meaning to mean something else, don't be surprised if people don't understand what you're talking about

Waterseas

Not understanding is one thing

Rainbolt

When asked what you think makes up a cycle, you kind of just got angry. You still haven't actually said what you think a cycle is.

Waterseas

Me explaining what I meant afterwords, then you for some reason continuing on about the misuse of the word cycle is another thing.

I know what a cycle traditionally is

I thought there were only 5 multicolor uncommons.

Mistakes are things that exist.

murgatroid99

9:43 PM

OK, I'll admit, I didn't actually notice that all of the listed cards had the same rarity until just now

Rainbolt

Is this guy part of the cyclabobthingy? gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/…

Waterseas

Ahh, its possible there's 10, let me check

Rainbolt

I think he's uncommon, but the Gatherer doesn't have him listed from BFZ yet

murgatroid99

He listed the 6 non-Eldrazi multicolored uncommons

Waterseas

Yep

It's actually all 10

Forgot that mythicspoiler seperates them.

It is actually a cycle.

Rainbolt

9:45 PM

I'm hoping for 5 creatures, 5 non

That would make more sense

Waterseas

Unnecessary.

murgatroid99

all but 1 are creatures

Waterseas

10 Uncommons, all color pairs.

Rainbolt

That blows my theory

Waterseas

Makes a cycle

murgatroid99

9:45 PM

That's kind of a loose cycle

Waterseas

Not really

murgatroid99

A cycle generally has a theme, not just representation of the color pie. Like the spell lands, or the Retreats

Rainbolt

Maybe we are spoiled from the previous sets

Waterseas

Nope, this is pretty common definition of a cycle. If you said multicolored uncommon cycle, no one would normally question it.

murgatroid99

> A cycle is a collection of cards that have one or more relationships with one another, or share a common theme

That's the definition MTGSalvation wiki has

Waterseas

9:49 PM

Indeed

Rainbolt

A common theme meaning something like the uncommon charms that were all modal and did things related to the guild, or the guildmages that were also uncommon and did guild related stuff

Waterseas

Two relationships.

note the "OR" before "Share a common theme"

murgatroid99

Rarity isn't a relationship or a theme

Waterseas

Not a theme

But it is a relationship

murgatroid99

So if I just pick a common creature from each color, that's a cycle?

Rainbolt

9:50 PM

They are all MTG cards. Everything is a cycle. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is real.

This discussion is subjective and pointless

Waterseas

God I love when people open an article, read a sentence that they think confirms their theory, then tries to quote it.

Intelligence.

mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Cycle#Horizontal_cycles

murgatroid99

Note that every example they give is thematically linked, and is more than just a representational selection of the color pie

Waterseas

Please learn to read: "Most horizontal cycles consist of cards which are very similar (same rarity, mana cost, types, abilities and eventual power and toughness), but it is not necessary. "

Note that this has same rarity.

murgatroid99

And then the example they give of one that doesn't have that quality is still thematically linked

Maybe you should read the parts of the article besides the one sentence that superficially supports your interpretation

Waterseas

Okay? So now we're just going to ignore the sentence you quoted prior that states that theme is not necessary?

Holy hell, talk about cherry-picking.

Quote a thing, then ignore the thing they quoted because they realize it conflicts with their point.

murgatroid99

9:56 PM

If you're just going to make accusations, instead of paying attention to the points I made, I see no reason to bother with this conversation any more.

Waterseas

I pointed out why your point was wrong, then made accusations.

This conversation was unnecessary in the first place, so don't even start that.

murgatroid99

6 mins ago, by Waterseas

God I love when people open an article, read a sentence that they think confirms their theory, then tries to quote it.

5 mins ago, by Waterseas

Please learn to read: "Most horizontal cycles consist of cards which are very similar (same rarity, mana cost, types, abilities and eventual power and toughness), but it is not necessary. "

I rest my case

Waterseas

The fuck does that prove?

You quoted a sentence without reading the rest of the article.

I did not.

Rainbolt

@Waterseas You read the entire article?

Waterseas

@Rainbolt Yep, not exactly long

Rainbolt

10:01 PM

Did you read the external links and references? Context is key you know.

murgatroid99

@Waterseas How do you know that?

Waterseas

Nope

@murgatroid99 Because you would've seen that this was clearly a horizontal, athematic cycle if you had.

murgatroid99

It's not a cycle. It's just a collection of cards that happen to be different colors

Waterseas

Sure, keep thinking that if you wish, have shown proof through your own quoted article otherwise

murgatroid99

I disagree with your conclusion. That doesn't mean I didn't read the article

Rainbolt

10:03 PM

I still think "loose" is a good descriptor for this cycle

Waterseas

Given that a loose cycle has a definition of being thematic by that article, tis not the case

Rainbolt

You realize that the definition of tight is taken from MaRo's Tumblr?

Waterseas

But perhaps a synonym of loose not already being used as a cycle descriptor.

And okayz?

murgatroid99

@Waterseas Since loose cycles are thematic, and tight cycles also share additional characteristics, we should therefore conclude that it is neither type of cycle

Rainbolt

So once we get past the fact that most of the information in the article is probably BS taken from Tumblr, we can get over the article and go back to the good old English definition of "loose" which, in this case, is subjective.

Waterseas

10:05 PM

@murgatroid99 Cycles don't have to be loose or tight. Otherwise, this entire article conflicts with itself, and thus isn't actually valid as evidence to either side, putting us back to square one.

murgatroid99

@Waterseas Or maybe your interpretation is wrong

Waterseas

Given that you're a programmer, I would hope you know what "Or" means.

@murgatroid99 As you quoted before ^

murgatroid99

I don't think we disagree on the meaning of "or". I think we disagree on the meaning of "relationship"

Waterseas

Then what does that mean to you?

murgatroid99

Actually, it's hard to tell. Since exactly zero of the given examples don't share a theme, as defined at the top of the page, it's hard to tell what a cycle that doesn't share a theme would even look like

Waterseas

10:10 PM

I agree that that is an issue in the page, and should show one of the examples without a theme.

Also does the chat keep bugging out for anyone else?

murgatroid99

Actually, that parenthetical might apply to "relationship or theme"

In which case, the answer is "relationship or theme" collectively refers to shared mechanics, types, mana cost (modulo color), and such

Waterseas

I think its defining what it means by theme.

Otherwise the sentence makes no sense structurally.

murgatroid99

OK, I think we've reduced this to an irreducible difference of opinion, so we should just agree to disagree

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Board and Card Games