Board and Card Games

4:00 PM

Actually what prompted me to get certified is that my LGS told me they gave two boxes of Khans to a judge from Dallas so that they could hold a Grand Prix Trial

I don't care about boxes, so if I get certified, I can just judge for free

And maybe they'll toss me a foil every now and then for my modern deck

Magic is an expensive hobby, but judging is free, so this way I can participate without having to pay

Waterseas

Tis true, although most LGS's will give judges compensation for their time.

Rainbolt

Yea, but imagine if there was on in house that would just judge for free

I could speedster my way to L2 by volunteering

I'll happily take compensation from large tournaments like SCG once I reach L2

Waterseas

4:16 PM

Mmm, honestly don't think offering to judge for free will help such, unless your LGS hosts competitive REL tourneys.

Rainbolt

They do host competitive tournies

The problem is, we don't have a local judge

Or rather, a local certified judge

One store in town has a judge, but their player base is small

Plus, I live 300 yards away from this place

Of course they are trying to move into another larger building which is even closer to me, so by judging for free I am helping them move closer to me

They have a kickstarter fundraiser going

Waterseas

The judge only works one store?

Rainbolt

Pretty much. The customers at each store are mostly loyal

We all play at various stores but there's always the one we call home base

Plus, you can't judge at two FNMs that occur at the same time

Oh, and this judge is a store employee lol

Waterseas

True

Ahhh

well that makes more sense

Rainbolt

He did just certify a regular at our store, and then the regular pretty much left

He spends every weekend judging at larger events

@Waterseas So what motivated you to become a judge?

Waterseas

4:27 PM

Ahh, so he's an L2 at least?

Hmm, a number of things, primarily my interest in rules interactions in MTG

Rainbolt

He must be if he can certify

Waterseas

Secondarily, given my major, tis actually a rather relevant thing to put on my resume XD

Our area is not even close to short of judges, so tis not really a need I'm seeking to fill like you are.

Our LGS regularly cycles through 5 different judges for events.

With even a few others cycling through for special events like prereleases and such.

Rainbolt

4:52 PM

@Waterseas What is your major? I'm having trouble thinking of a major where complex rules knowledge would be relevant

Waterseas

@Rainbolt Game Design and Development

Rainbolt

Non digital?

Typically in games you are only allowed to do what the game allows you to do

Waterseas

Tis relevant in regards to the design aspect of both digital and non-digital.

Rainbolt

I see

I took an introduction to game design class, and got a lot out of it

Waterseas

Am gonna assume you had a good teacher then?

Rainbolt

4:54 PM

She was good, yes

Now when I wander through levels, I know that the hills and walls exist to make me think the level is larger than it really is

Waterseas

Mmhmm

Psychology + Game design go hand in hnd

Rainbolt

I also notice series of battles leading up to bosses that make it impossible for me to arrive underleveled

Waterseas

Generally measured that way.

Rainbolt

And I really enjoy games that make me not notice these things

Waterseas

Though tis a lot harder to do in games like Tales of Symphonia

Tis near impossible for me to not notice these things in games XD

Rainbolt

4:56 PM

I really liked Gran Pulse in FF XIII

Waterseas

Although, makes me appreciate good games even more.

'has played essentially zero final fantasy games'

Rainbolt

Instead of scripted battles, the monsters you can't beat are just really big

Waterseas

Hmm, makes sense

Rainbolt

They'll step on you and you die

Waterseas

That's less good

Rainbolt

4:59 PM

My final exam was my professor trying to play my Neverwinter Knights mod

Waterseas

That sounds amusing XD

Rainbolt

I made a scary place (the left road) with hordes of undead that could only be beaten with some holy item that you get by taking the right road.

She went straight to the left road, died, then took the right road

Waterseas

Haven't worked with Neverwinter Nights' modding engine, but have heard good things about it.

Rainbolt

I lost points for not warning her that she was surely going to die

Waterseas

Mmm, that's fair actually. Should generally give some indicator to the player on which path is correct to go down first, even if its small.

Rainbolt

5:02 PM

Of course. But I thought it was perfectly obvious because I made it lol

It wasn't until I got a second opinion that I realized someone could possibly make that mistake in my perfectly designed mod

I should have teamed up with a classmate

I get skewered in their mod, they get skewered in mine, and we both make adjustments

Waterseas

Play testing is a thing for a reason XD

Am heading off, nice talking with you

Rainbolt

5:14 PM

Later

Rainbolt

9:17 PM

@murgatroid99 Need a trigger that would give creatures -1/-1

Dryad Militant on the field

The question to the judge is something to do with a graveyard trigger

But it won't happen if Dryad Militant causes it to be exiled

So if you remembered your -1/-1 trigger, the Dryad Militant would be dead

And the graveyard trigger would happen

If you forgot it, the Dryad Militant would be alive

murgatroid99

Something with Flanking would do that. But couldn't the judge just ask "Is the Dryad Millitant alive?"? That's public information, right?

Rainbolt

@murgatroid99 Of course

That's kind of what I was going for actually with this question

I want to know what kinds of questions I can ask without giving away information that I am not supposedto give away

I thought I'd dip my toes in the water with this one

murgatroid99

Can't you just look at the board, and see if the Dryad Millitant is still alive?

Rainbolt

Sure

So.... you assume that the trigger was missed then?

I.e., don't ask, just assume that if it's on the board that the trigger must have been missed?

murgatroid99

The rules define what a missed trigger is

Rainbolt

9:22 PM

I don't understand what you are getting at

murgatroid99

If you're passed the point where it would matter, it's missed

Rainbolt

Are you trying to help me come up with an example

Or are you trying to convince me that my question is pointless

I could write a self answer to this if I wanted to

I thought you wanted to see an example

murgatroid99

I'm saying that I don't think that example is an instance of "The judge can't tell whether the trigger was missed"

Rainbolt

Okay, then write an answer like "There is no need to assume. The trigger was either missed or it wasn't."

murgatroid99

I only said that I don't think your particular example fits. I don't know if there is no possible example. I suspect that's the case, but I'm really not sure

Rainbolt

9:25 PM

How about Prowess?

You have to ask about the P/T in order to determine if the trigger was missed

So should you assume it didn't happen, or should you ask and therefore give a hint to the player?

murgatroid99

OK, that's a good starting point as an example. Continuous effects are generally not visible

Rainbolt

What is a three powered prowess creature?

gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/…

That plus Stubborn Denial

Hmm actually

I think that will work

murgatroid99

OK, so now we just need a question about that interaction that one of the players would ask the judge

That wouldn't reveal whether they knew about the prowess trigger

Rainbolt

So here is the situation: Nathan forgets to announce that he had one remaining mana in his pool

Alice casts Stubborn Denial and Nathan tries to pay for it with his one remaining mana

Alice calls for a judge

Sound good?

murgatroid99

Yeah, I think so

Rainbolt

9:32 PM

@murgatroid99 Added an example

murgatroid99

OK, I'm not trying to make this harder on purpose, but it seems like at the end of that example, the trigger is kind of unambiguously missed

Rainbolt

Are you saying that Alice said something that gave away the fact that she missed her trigger?

murgatroid99

@Rainbolt She asked a question with the assumption that Stubborn Denial's self-replacement effect did not apply

Rainbolt

I suppose she could have just called the judge to point out a game play error

Even if it was actually not relevant

murgatroid99

I guess

Rainbolt

9:37 PM

I mean, you do have to announce the mana in your pool whether or not you can use it

Well, I'll keep thinking of a better example

murgatroid99

I guess that's actually a valid point: she could have called the judge when she was first made aware that the mana was in Nathan's mana pool, whether or not it was actually important at that very moment

Rainbolt

Alright, I guess I'll leave it alone then

I can't think of a stronger example

I need the trigger to be less closely tied to the judge call

murgatroid99

@Rainbolt but still closely enough that it matters

I think that's just going to be tricky

Rainbolt

If I had just asked what questions a judge is allowed to ask about the game, would that have been closed as too broad you think?

murgatroid99

I don't know if it's too broad, but I think the rules actually specify that

The thing is, there isn't actually anything in the rules that says that judges shouldn't help players remember mandatory triggers

I'm not a judge, but if I was I would prioritize getting all relevant information much higher over possibly revealing non-private information

I think "(How many times) Has [triggered ability] triggered?" counts as free information, if it affects the current game state (which it should in all valid examples).

Actually, I think I can make an answer out of that

Rainbolt

9:53 PM

I was under the impression that a judge shouldn't help players remember triggers, but I can't find anything about it

Found this from a forum:
However, if the trigger is not "generally detrimental", the Judge cannot and will not intervene. It is the player's responsibility to remember his or her own triggers. If that player remembers later, tough luck. But if that player's opponent notices within a turn, that player will have the option of calling a Judge in order to have that trigger go off on the spot. They may also choose not to notify a Judge, and let the trigger pass away.

NOTE, however, that it is illegal for a player to "forget" their own mandatory triggers. It is completely legal for them to since…

Source: mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/…

Two years old btw

"But if that player's opponent notices within a turn" no longer applies

murgatroid99

That's talking about active intervention, though

It's not really the same logic as trying to not let it slip once the players have asked the judge to interact with the game

Rainbolt

You're right, but I have a feeling there are rules I can't find right now

I only say this because judges I have interacted with have been generally sidesteppish about answering my questions directly

murgatroid99

I am going to write up how I think this works as a complete answer

But first, do you agree with me that "What triggered abilities have triggered this turn that affect the current game state" is free information?

Rainbolt

Let me look

murgatroid99

I'm specifically thinking of the first bullet

Rainbolt

9:58 PM

Yes, because of "Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state. "

murgatroid99

I wasn't exactly sure about "game actions"

Rainbolt

So here's an odd thing: I can find "Judging at Regular" but I cannot find anything like "Judging at Competitive"

I don't think I understand this well enough to write a self answer, mostly because I can't understand why all the judges I have interacted with in the past have been so skittish

By my reading of the rules, your understanding seems correct

You just ask "Hey did you remember this trigger?" and I don't see anything actually wrong with that

But it just seems wrong, ya know?

murgatroid99

The way I see it, if Alice says yes and Nathan says "She never said anything about it", the judge can rule that the trigger was missed, even if she now remembers it

Rainbolt

Why ask Alice the question if her answer doesn't matter?

murgatroid99

27 mins ago, by murgatroid99

I guess that's actually a valid point: she could have called the judge when she was first made aware that the mana was in Nathan's mana pool, whether or not it was actually important at that very moment

Rainbolt

10:06 PM

Okay let me backtrack. The question is "Did you remember your trigger?"

right?

And Alice says "Yes" and Nathan says "She never said anything about it"

So we ignore what Alice said and rule it missed?

murgatroid99

I said "can". I don't actually know how missed trigger rulings are supposed to go in a "he said/she said" case

Rainbolt

Well neither of them lied, so it's not a he said she said case

She remembered it, but she didn't announce that she remember it until now

And Stubborn Denial hasn't really resolved yet

murgatroid99

I don't know if the trigger would/might count as missed

My point is that I think that's actually orthogonal to the answer to your question

I don't think the questions the judge can/should ask should at all depend on whether the trigger might actually be ruled as missed

Rainbolt

Sure. I guess this was also orthogonal "the judge can rule that the trigger was missed"

I was just responding to that

murgatroid99

What I was trying to say there was just that revealing the trigger doesn't matter because the judge can still choose whether to rule it as missed. I guess that wasn't very clear

Rainbolt

10:11 PM

Oh I see

You have given away information, but it doesn't matter because it cannot affect your ruling

I think there might be quite a few pieces to this answer, depending on what you decide to include, so I'm glad that I didn't ask the larger one "What questions are okay to ask?"

I just hope the example doesn't mess it all up

murgatroid99

I don't see anything in the rules that indicates that there is any type of question that a judge is discouraged from asking

murgatroid99

10:47 PM

So, on a completely different topic, I just want to say that Dead Ringers is one of my favorite cards ever, just because of how convoluted the wording is to do something relatively simple.

murgatroid99

11:04 PM

So, after seeing all of the recent Magic Origins spoilers, I think I want to build a White/Green token-based EDH deck, with The Great Aurora as a kind of finisher.

But I realized that it may lead to some very difficult to keep track of board states

Like Rhys the Redeemed + Avenger of Zendikar + Cathar's Crusade

+ Enduring Scalelord, because that could get ridiculous quickly

doppelgreener

11:25 PM

@murgatroid99 better yet, find a way to give your opponent 100 tokens, then play the great aurora

murgatroid99

I don't want the deck to depend on that card. And giving my opponent a ton of tokens and then sitting around waiting to draw it sounds like a bad idea

doppelgreener

yeah, having a commander deck that depends on any one particular non-commander card seems to be against the point

murgatroid99

The idea is that the commander would be Rhys, and then I'd have a bunch of different cards that make tokens or pump all of my creatures

It turns out that I already have copies of Elesh Norn and Mikaeus, the Lunarch, which would both go nicely with hordes of tokens

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