V'dibarta Bam

2:17 AM

@IsaacMoses This should be pinned

@HodofHod Thanks.

Ohh, I'm not there yet . Cool beans, thanks! — Seth J 2 hours ago

@SethJ, nor am I. I've never learned AZ. Here's how I found it: [cont'd]

Corollary FTR: "other religions," above, also applies to other belief systems that are nominally classified as part of the same religion.

@IsaacMoses So perhaps a simpler phrasing might just be "other beliefs".

@HodofHod fair enough

2:22 AM

[cont'd] I figured that any source that discusses the issue would compare a woman to a נולד מהול. So I Googled "נולדה מהולה" and got precisely three results. The snippet shown for the third was"הגם שכתוב ש'אשה כמאן דמהילא דמיא', היא נולדה מהולה, בפשט אינה מקיימת מצות ברית מילה. אבל שבת – האש וההתלהבות של שבת – בעיקר שייכת לאשה, החל מכך שהיא מכניסה" which looked promising in that it included a quote -- and in Aramaic, no less, so probably not from a modern source, [cont'd]

[cont'd] indeed probably from g'mara. So I Googled that phrase, "אשה כמאן דמהילא דמיא", and got what I wanted.

@msh210 Y"K sheyaga'ta umatzata

The moral of that story is (less important than the moral of @IsaacMoses's, but is) that sometimes it takes just a little Googling to find an answer. Anyone who has studied Bavli for any length of time could have found that one. (I'm no baki.)

@msh210 No less important. Yours comes up more often

@IsaacMoses Well, how to respect others' beliefs is intrinsically more important than how to Google, though you're right that its lesser frequency drops it down the practical-importance scale. Doubtless Randall Munroe could come up with some function that takes intrinsic importance and frequency as parameters and returns practical importance.

@msh210 Second moral of my story above and also rejoinder to you: IMO, learning more about the details of your own religious heritage is far more important than learning about others' (esp. if yours happens to be Torat H' Temima :)

Call me a parochialist dinosaur.

2:36 AM

@IsaacMoses Can't argue with that.

@IsaacMoses Or with that. :-)

@msh210 Takes one to know one. 8P

@IsaacMoses :-)

Q: Are kosher foods considered to be halal?

5

If kosher foods contain no alcohol within them, is it safe for a Muslim to consume kosher?

@DoubleAA OP's original grammar was perfectly fine, as far as I'm concerned.

@DoubleAA ... Perhaps I should make an account there and jump into the edit/comment fray.

2:52 AM

@IsaacMoses That was exactly what I was pointing out. I agree with you.

@IsaacMoses Patriarch Isaac's account on Islam.SE :)

If you do make your account name Ishmael Muhammed

@DoubleAA See chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8319874#8319874

@DoubleAA What's wrong with Isaq Musa?

@IsaacMoses Different parallels.

@IsaacMoses Was my comment offensive?

@DoubleAA No. Just sayin that, call me a parochialist dinosaur, I'm don't feel a strong need to create accounts on other religion.SEs

@IsaacMoses I've asked a few questions on C.

@msh210 I've posted a comment on meta there.

2:57 AM

@IsaacMoses I edited some tag wikis on Islam the other day.

@IsaacMoses Meta is not about Christianity.

@DoubleAA I know. I do creepy global chat searches for "jew OR judaism OR yodeya" on a regular basis. :) </creepy>

@IsaacMoses lol

@IsaacMoses You don't know how much we talk about Jews, Judaisms, and Yodeyas in the mod rooms.

@DoubleAA Rub it in, why don't you?

@msh210 Agreed. I haven't caught myself in a lie.

@IsaacMoses I recently created an account on Islam just so I could bookmark some meta posts that were mentioned in meta. (Nothing immediately relevant for us, but could be relevant for BH.) I don't have or particularly want one at C.SE; I accidentally had one once and asked them to delete it, so I'm not even sure if I could create one again. (Do they issue a new user number each time, or am I locked out? If I ever get curious enough I'll answer that empirically.)

@IsaacMoses So next time maybe you'll run. :-)

3:05 AM

@MonicaCellio It's all good. I never said that my particular expression if incuriosity is for everyone :)

@MonicaCellio Platform: I want to be able to creepily search more chatrooms.

3

@IsaacMoses thank you for sharing that story (and the comments that followed). My alma mater just this academic year got a kosher dining option and the articles I read about it said that they were trying to work with the Muslim students so it would help them too. In the end some said yes and some said no -- but also a few Jews said it wasn't kosher enough. Oh well.

@MonicaCellio Can't please everyone.

@IsaacMoses I'm just glad there's an option now. Especially if the dorm-cooking rules are still as draconian as when I was there.

@MonicaCellio I'm sure it's a boon to current Kosher-eating students (and prospective students)

@MonicaCellio My alma mater had a kosher dining option (kosher enough for orthodox Jews -- or at least for most of them, including me) when I was there in the late '90s. But, then, it was in NYC.

3:10 AM

@IsaacMoses and it's even good food, based on the one sample I've had. (My alma mater is just down the street a couple miles.)

@msh210 that's probably easier in NYC than in Pittsburgh. :-)

@MonicaCellio Doubtless.

I just learned a new word, incidentally, @MonicaCellio: Pittsburgh rare.

@msh210 I don't actually know anybody who likes steak that way, but the term does show up. I don't know if it's a joke or if I just run in the wrong circles. :-) Another Pittsburgh dining oddity: french fries on salad.

From what I understand, the new kosher place at CMU is acceptable to many Orthodox, but not all. I'm not sure of the details.

@MonicaCellio Sounds good (fries on salad). I think many Israelis put fries, salad, tahini, and falafel on lafa, though I'm not sure.

@msh210 When I was in Jerusalem last summer I got "pita with everything including fries" a couple times.

@MonicaCellio There you go, then.

It's #falafelday! Humus, salad, lettuce, onions, techina, #falafel and CHIPS in a Lafa! How do you like your http://instagr.am/p/LxnumSEp21/

Tweeted by MrJNowlin on June 12, 2012 at 1:26 PM

3:18 AM

@msh210 :-) I got my first one two weeks later. :-) I wonder, does "chips" there mean fries (British English) or thin fried slices (American English)?

@MonicaCellio The picture shows neither AFAICT. However, I believe "chips" in Israel means both -- but in bread with falafel means fries. Again, I'm not sure. Someone more familiar with Israel culture/cuisine could speak to all this better than I. Maybe you.

A propos of nothing:

@MonicaCellio thetartan.org/2013/2/4/news/jewishculture I can see why some are disappointed

@msh210 I couldn't see either in the picture but I wasn't sure that meant they weren't there. :-) My Israeli-born husband doesn't remember (fooey).

@IsaacMoses Ah, @MonicaCellio, I see: the food is prepared under the auspices of a rabbi whom many of the Orthodox folks don't consider reliable for this. (Thanks for the link, Isaac.)

@msh210 ... though it looks like there is a Va'ad-certified option to some degree: cmu.edu/dining/locations/kosherkorner.html

3:25 AM

@IsaacMoses ah yes, thanks for the reminder. I'd forgotten about whose kitchen they used. I was confused because some orthodox don't have a problem with it.

Earlier process story: thejewishchronicle.net/view/full_story/20730851/…

@IsaacMoses cold foods yes. Options for heating a meal if you live on campus aren't really there (and if you live off campus you don't need the service).

@MonicaCellio I see.

@IsaacMoses I remember reading that. Thanks.

@IsaacMoses Things could have changed; Kosher Korner wasn't there when I was a student, so maybe it is accompanied by better options for heating food? The dorm I lived in didn't allow cooking in rooms; the daring among us had "hot pots" (remember those?).

At MIT, at least, many dorm suites had kitchens, and the school accommodated a couple of "Kosher suites" in which everyone agreed to keep the kitchen kosher.

3:29 AM

(Not like a crock pot; more like a pint-sized kettle with a wide top, useful for soup/stew/oatmeal/etc.)

@IsaacMoses Oh, that's nice.

I've heard Yeshiva U has some good options for kosher dining. But they, too, are in NYC, so I guess that's to be expected.

@msh210 All OU-certified, IINM :)

@IsaacMoses Nice of them to accommodate the religious students so.

At CMU students are (or at least were, but I think still are) required to live on campus for the first year, and then they can move off. There are a lot of apartments and houses nearby, so like-minded students can band together to rent them. But you still have to get through that first year.

@msh210 :)

3:33 AM

@MonicaCellio Washington U in St. Louis has the same rule (freshmen must dorm). I don't understand it -- but that may because I was a commuter student.

@MonicaCellio That policy became the case while I was at MIT, thanks to a stupid kid who drank himself to death at frat parties. Bad policy, IMO, since it lowers the avg age in the dorms significantly

... thus making it harder for frosh to have mature role models

@msh210 when I was a student it was explained as an acclimation thing; they wanted the people trying to figure out how to be college students (having been tops of their high-school classes) to be in proximity. I don't really buy it, but that was the claim.

@IsaacMoses oh yeah, that too. We had one of those when I was a student even with the policy in place. He died in his dorm room instead of in an off-campus apartment; how did that help?

Oh, man. Hot-blooded, indignant, self-righteous student Isaac is reemerging after a decade of hiding!

@IsaacMoses :-)

@MonicaCellio Maybe that explains why my alma mater didn't have the rule: we weren't tops of our classes. :-)

3:37 AM

So I did your creep search, @IsaacMoses, clicked to see the context of the first result, and I see this:

in Root Access, Mar 21 '12 at 23:46, by studiohack

about Judiasm, there are two kinds of Jews, those still waiting for the Messiah and those who believe the Messiah (Jesus) has already come. Those are "completed Jews"

@msh210 I realized after I wrote it just how arrogant that sounded. I didn't mean to. My own experience was that I was top of a mediocre high-school class, got into CMU on that basis (and alumni parents), and crashed and burned my first semester because I'd never had to study before.

@MonicaCellio In loco parentis. You millenials really crave our authority. Grrr

Gotta love the plurality of SE.

@HodofHod eww. I've heard that term before. Whose room is that?

@HodofHod Gotta sort by newest

3:38 AM

@HodofHod <rolls eyes>

@IsaacMoses who you calling a millenial? When I was at CMU I used the ARPAnet. :-)

@MonicaCellio Super User's main room

@HodofHod thanks. Not what I would have guessed.

@MonicaCellio :) Just suffering flashbacks.

@MonicaCellio Nor I! But then, even here we get to some pretty off-topic discussions.

3:40 AM

@HodofHod True! Which reminds me, my Israeli husband is good for culinary info after all @msh210: he Googled it. Chips are fries.

@MonicaCellio In context, you mean? Because I believe potato chips (crisps) are marketed as "chips" (also).

1 hour ago, by msh210

The moral of that story is (less important than the moral of @IsaacMoses's, but is) that sometimes it takes just a little Googling to find an answer. Anyone who has studied Bavli for any length of time could have found that one. (I'm no baki.)

@msh210 I asked him about ordering in restaurants. So broader context is possible.

@MonicaCellio Okay. And when I said "marketed" I meant that that's written on bags found in supermarkets IIRC.

Anyway, gtg. Have a good night, folks.

(None of that "timezone" nonsense. As far as I can tell, you're all North Americans.)

@msh210 Good night!

@msh210 Timezone Mabrouk

Shmuel Brin

4:19 AM

@msh210 Are you allowed to reveal this?

@MonicaCellio What happens to one who leaks classified information (to SE chat, wikileaks, etc.) :))))

@ShmuelBrin BURNINATE THEM!!!!

You can request it here meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/burninate-request

Shmuel Brin

@DoubleAA Sraifa? What is it, a tolda of znus?

@ShmuelBrin They'd have to be a bat kohein for that.

Shmuel Brin

@DoubleAA Mod = Kohen?

but then you don't give a kohen sraifa, just the daughter

4:38 AM

@ShmuelBrin hmmm צ"ע

(Too tired for Purim Torah now :( )

4:49 AM

@DoubleAA Lekayeim minhag Esther Hamalka ulehavi et hageula:

►

@ShmuelBrin watching the wikileaks thing play out will probably be informative. :-) (Truth to tell, I have never actually received classified info, but I've had the training so if I need to go into the lab for some reason,I can.)

5:14 AM

@MonicaCellio shouldnt we haave moderators at chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/7700/… @IsaacMoses

@Ali I'm not a mod.

@Ali ... @DoubleAA, who created that room, is.

okl

6:23 AM

@ShmuelBrin I gleaned it from publicly-available information.

... I think.

7:02 AM

I'm pretty sure I remember everyone here saying at one time or another that they are/were in North America. Maybe not you @ShmuelBrin.

9:32 AM

@HodofHod How many people from Israel?

10:11 AM

@IsaacMoses Are you here, or just your gravatar?

@IsaacMoses I take it it's just your gravatar.

They say when you are alone in a room, your inner self comes out, because you're not conforming to anyone watching you.

10:34 AM

@DoubleAA Never trust a man who, when left alone in a room with a tea cosy, does not try it on his head.

@TRiG I can't say I've ever been in that situation, but I'd like to think if I was I'd be deemed trustworthy.

3:02 PM

@msh210 There isn't much of that on @DoubleAA, and some of what there is is contradictory.

@DoubleAA What's my gravatar, chopped liver?

3:22 PM

@IsaacMoses Of all the gravatars often in this room, yes, yours most resembles chopped liver.

@DoubleAA "Contemplate three things, and you will not come to the hands of transgression: Know what is above from you: a seeing eye, a listening ear, and all your deeds being inscribed in a book." - Avot 2:1

@IsaacMoses And what does God have against wearing tea cozy's on our heads?

@IsaacMoses He wasn't in the room when I wished everyone a good night.

6:07 PM

@MonicaCellio, and anyone, what's your take on the "Also..." sentence here?:

−1: a glance at a bible concordance will answer this, especially the second part. (Also I'm not fond of "Biblical characters" (they're not fictional, and "Biblical personalities" would be much better), but that may just be my own idiosyncratic preference.) — msh210 11 mins ago

@msh210 and @DoubleAA, I'm of the opinion that the mods should not get snarky or take a passive-aggressive approach to questions and answers posted by users of the site who refuse (or cannot seem to grasp the right way) to conform to MY/SE standards.

@msh210 I understand your dislike, but I think the actual propriety of this phrase boils down to an ELU question: can one use "characters" in the context of a non-fiction work?

@IsaacMoses I suppose so. (Note that I would not have downvoted it for that!)

A: July 2012 Moderator Election - Town Hall Chat Digest

@msh210, @DoubleAA (cont.) I have been personally uncomfortable with your reactions of late to Ali.

(end)

1

Grace Note asked: With a diamond after your name, everything you say and do on the site will be perceived in a different way. How do you plan to handle this, especially when having discussions about site policy and scope decisions? Adam Mosheh answered: I will have to be aware that others a...

@SethJ I hope to reply to you quite soon but must dash, temporarily, now. But giving me a coupla specific examples of my improper reactions would help me understand the issue. brb

6:15 PM

@msh210 really?

"It's a name. As a name, it means just "Ishmael". That is, suppose someone's surname is Smith. Smith also means "someone who works with material". But when you say "Mr. Smith has left the building" you don't mean "Mr. who works with material has left the building". You mean "That guy right outside with the cleft chin and the limp has left the building". So Mr. Smith in your sentence means only "that guy" and Smith is just a name with no further meaning."

@Ali, if you say what's wrong with it or how you think it can be improved, I'd love to improve it. — msh210 13 mins ago

@SethJ I appreciate the feedback. I know you are aware, or course, that there can be details of Ali's behavior (flags, mod messages) of which you are unaware, but I agree generally wholeheartedly that snarkiness is not the right approach. (Incidentally, the same can be said for non-moderators.) None of us are very happy with the current situation, and we should all try our best to make a kiddush hashem in whatever way we can.

in Discussion about Islam's view of Judaism and assorted extended discussions, 7 hours ago, by TRiG

@AviD. I'd say that performing any form of elective surgery or body modifications on an infant is just morally wrong. I'm also very uncomfortable with inducting babies into a religion (I'm not a fan of infant baptism, for example). Circumcision combines two ethically dodgy practices in one easy bundle. I'm not impressed. — TRiG Jul 19 '12 at 17:43

I can't deny that this reminds me of some very scary times for Jews.

But maybe I'm just being overly... whatever.

@HodofHod The less from that room spills into this room, the better, IMO.

2

@IsaacMoses It's a comment from the site that was quoted there.

@HodofHod It's a classic להעבירו על הדת vs. לתאבון distinction.

6:29 PM

@HodofHod Oh. Didn't catch that. Never mind my complaint.

@DoubleAA I'm unfamiliar.

@HodofHod mechon-mamre.org/i/1105.htm#3

No time to chat today though.

@HodofHod One would not have to be anti-Semitic to consider these objections reasonable. I have every reason to believe that this user, in particular, is not expressing anti-Semitism.

@IsaacMoses Agreed entirely, and I do not suspect him of such.

But then again, the banning of circumcision and teaching of religion in say, the Soviet Union, was not by definition anti-semitic in intent either. (Though perhaps its instituters were.) The same moral objections could be used, to much the same effect.

@DoubleAA I admit guilt in that area. But remember, you are the ones entrusted and empowered to moderate and police the behavior of the rest of us.

6:48 PM

@HodofHod It all depends on context.

@SethJ ?? I thought that was a good answer.I did not mean it snarkily at all. I was being a little curt in order to more strongly make the point that names don't mean anything (whcih I think is anin-this-context important point and one that many people don't get) but I didn't mean to be snarky.

@SethJ, I can think of one time I was snarky w.r.t. this user -- but I deleted that (and regret it).

I naming my son "Mr smith" is maybe meaningless but God giving a name to my son? , then that name is not meaningless

@HodofHod It was anti-religion qua religion (להעבירו על הדת). This is not.

Just because Bris Milah has been used in the past against Jews doesn't mean it always is. It's in fact quite a reasonable thing to complain about as it affects other people and is a chok which looks pretty barbaric. We do it because God said so. That doesn't convince anyone else. If someone complained about lulav for instance which affects no one, then you have much more basis for worries of antisemitism.

@Ali If God reveals himself to all mankind and says "This newborn baby here shall be, and is hereby, named 'Zuul', because 'zuul' means 'love' and I love this baby", then the kid's name is 'Zuul' but 'Zuul' (when used to refer to that kid) doesn't mean 'love'. Only 'zuul' means love. (It's easier to explain this in English, which has capital letters, than in Hebrew.) 'Zuul' (when used to refer to that kid) just means that kid.

@DoubleAA And I do not expect it to. I do hope that they recognize that others may have a different moral system and that it will not always conform to theirs. Nor should it be forced to. I assume this is the case with @TRiG.

7:02 PM

@DoubleAA There are also rational arguments to be made against each of these objections that do not depend on the chok (except in that the parents believe that they ought to follow it).

:8329042 Accidentally pinged you when I meant DoubleAA

sorry :)

@HodofHod no problem

@HodofHod That's coming pretty close to extreme moral relativism. What if my moral system involves killing men whose height is exactly 5'8.5"?

@msh210 In that case, 'Zuul' would certainly connote love, and "mean" can include "connote" if we're willing to excuse a little imprecision.

@HodofHod Ethically dodgy !== should be illegal (necessarily)

7:04 PM

@HodofHod Incidentally, I don't know that Milah is moral. We do it because God said so.

@TRiG To be clear, I did not suspect you of believing this. :)

@DoubleAA I would argue that Jews believe whatever G-d says is moral.

@IsaacMoses It would have an etymology in which 'love' appears. It would remind people of love. Are those what you mean by "connote"?

@HodofHod Indeed, that can be taken as a definition of "moral".

@HodofHod Actually, I do have a very very large amount of sympathy for the idea that children's rights are more important than religious rights, and that freedom of conscience does not entail the right to do things to other people. On the other hand, I accept that (a) this is an area which is rather fraught for historical reasons, and (b) most circumcised children do not grow up to regret the fact.

In other words, it's complicated.

And I would be rather suspicious of anyone who didn't see it as complicated, actually.

@msh210 The latter, primarily, as a result of the former.

@TRiG Every parent has to do things to his kids. You can't get around that. Either you vaccinate him against mumps, incurring whatever risk that entails, or you don't, incurring whatever risk that entails. Either you circumcise him, incurring whatever risk that entails, or you don't, incurring whatever risk that entails.

7:07 PM

(Actually, the rights of parents in general, whether or not related to religion, is a complicated subject.)

@DoubleAA Good point. I don't actually know. Gut reaction is to say that one's personal morals should not infringe on another's, but that doesn't really work with religion in general.

@msh210 Jinx.

@HodofHod I don't see why it doesn't work with religion.

@HodofHod I would rather argue it's a semantic game. If moral means what you need to do, then yes. But if moral is some abstract general goodness which helps guide us in questionable situations, then maybe not. In the latter case, God knows when to tell us to be moral and when not to, and we keep by God's command the general goodness as our general goal when deciding questionable situations.

@TRiG And because that's so necessary -- I mean almost logically necessary, it's intrinsic to being a parent/guardian -- I don't see how someone can single out circumcision for condemnation.

3 mins ago, by msh210

@HodofHod Indeed, that can be taken as a definition of "moral".

@TRiG And this is easily understandable.

7:11 PM

Euthyphro dilemma

The Euthyphro dilemma is found in Plato's dialogue Euthyphro, in which Socrates asks Euthyphro, "Is the pious (τὸ ὅσιον) loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" (10a) The dilemma has had a major effect on the philosophical theism of the monotheistic religions, but in a modified form: "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?" Ever since Plato's original discussion, this question has presented a problem for some theists, though others have thought it a false dil...

@DoubleAA No. I would argue that for (most) religious people (at least the ones I've come into contact with) "moral" is not a relative term. What G-d says is good is moral, and what G-d says is not good, is immoral.

@TRiG memories of freshman-year philosphy...

@msh210 I wouldn't, generally, single out circumcision. There are worse abuses, such as those Christian sects which eschew any form of medicine.

@msh210 :)

@HodofHod I didn't say it was relative. There is an abstract general absolute good which God put into the world. By his command, we use it to guide our judgment. God, who supersedes it, can always tells us to violate it if He wants.

(Did you know that if you refuse your child medical treatment for religious reasons, and your child therefore died, in some US States you are immune from prosecution?)

7:12 PM

@TRiG that was Mary Baker Eddy's thing right? (I forget her group's name, going to look it up...)

@msh210 Christian Science, yes. But also others.

@TRiG Well, circumcision for one. (I meant it doesn't work for the religious.)

@TRiG I don't think giving a youth a "fro" haircut, in particular, should be that big a deal. It's reversible. </bad pun, so bad I felt it needed a tag ab initio to prevent confusion>

@HodofHod The Talmud in Eruvin says without the Torah we would have learned Zerizut from ants, and sharing from some other animal...I forget the whole list. But we see there is a background value system. We have no obligation to follow it except that God told us to. And he can just as easily tell us not to.

@IsaacMoses Aye. And my hair is currently a lot shorter than what's shown in that avatar.

7:16 PM

@IsaacMoses Okay, then I agree. But that's "means" is as in "my locket pendant means Joan is my best friend", not what one usually intends by "mean" when referring to a word (I don't think).

@DoubleAA At which point his new command becomes what is moral.

@HodofHod Depends on what you mean by that word!

@DoubleAA Does it say there that z'rizus is good? Or just that we'd learn it from ants?

@DoubleAA Just what I've said up until now.

@HodofHod His only command is what we do.

7:17 PM

Circumcision is, of course, a coming-of-age ritual. And, like most coming-of-age rituals, it contains pain, being forced to do something stupid just to see whether you're obedient, and a certain amount of sexual abuse. (Compare hazing.) Then the ritual somehow became unmoored from its original purpose, pushed back in time, and is nowadays a test of the parents, not of the child.

@msh210 I'll have to get the exact quote

@msh210 Eh. "Oh! Such a pretty name! What does it mean?" (A: "It's a reference to this child."?)

@IsaacMoses Fair enough.

@IsaacMoses (If I have another kid I'll be sure to use that response. :-))

@HodofHod There was no old command or new command. There is only one command. That command is to follow the Torah and be generally moral (in the latter sense).

@msh210 You'd better, for consistency's sake.

7:19 PM

@IsaacMoses I see Dan agrees with me (roughly).

@DoubleAA And when a prophet comes and temporarily suspends/changes a commandment?

@msh210 Even if it doesn't use the word good, it shows that we would learn it's an important value. 'good' is somewhat as vague as 'moral'.

(Yes, that is already part of Torah, I know)

@HodofHod Built in to the system. God told us from the beginning follow the prophet in that instance.

@DoubleAA That always confused me. Animals have negative traits, too, don't they? (Or at least traits that would be negative if applied to humans.)

7:22 PM

@HodofHod We'd learn cannibalism from the mantis....

3

@DoubleAA Correct, as I noted. But the fact remains that something that was immoral up to five minutes ago just became moral because G-d decided it should be.

@msh210 Or spiders....

By the way, was this comment of mine really so obscure? I didn't thin, writing it, that it would be difficult to understand.

@HodofHod You're insisting on using moral to mean: what I am obligated to do right now. It is trivial to define in that case.

@TRiG I didn't know it was sarcastic until I read your second comment there. And without sarcasm it makes no sense (to me).

Poe's law

Poe's law, named after its author Nathan Poe, is an Internet adage reflecting the idea that without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism. The law and its meaning Poe's law states: The core of Poe's law is that a parody of something extreme by nature becomes impossible to differentiate from sincere extremism. A corollary of Poe's law is the reverse phenomenon: sincere fundamentalist beliefs being mistaken for a parody of that belief. History The statement called Poe...

7:25 PM

@IsaacMoses Fairy nuff.

@DoubleAA @HodofHod Then there's the issue of naval birshus hatora (bad things not forbidden) and latzes y'de shamayim (good things not required).

@DoubleAA Yes. I am insisting that moral means whatever G-d has allowed me to do.

@msh210 Kadesh es atzmo b'mutar lo.

would seem to apply to both.

@msh210 Reminds me of a great pirush from the Slonimer Rebbe (don't ask which. Also helps if you know Yiddish.)

> "וואס איז דער טייטש פון "איש אמו ואביו תיראו"?
> "אַ מענטש דאַרף מורא האָבן פאַר "פטור" און "מותר

@msh210 You were being evasive and dismissive. He asked a question that anyone might have asked, using the language anyone might have used, but (I assume) because you have grown tired of his behavior, you got all stuck up about proper English usage instead of answering the question you "suspect" he meant.

@HodofHod "פאַר" = "before"?

@msh210 "for" (or "towards" might be the better translation here)

7:30 PM

@HodofHod I don't get the vort. :-/

@msh210 The last two quoted words are Hebrew but sound like words in English (or Yiddish, I guess)

@IsaacMoses ahhh! thanks

@msh210 Its a pun. "One has to fear the patur and the mutar". In Yiddish father and mother are pronounced "foter" and "muter".

@SethJ I think "evasive and dismissive" is unwarranted considering that I answered the question in the next two paragraphs. You contend my first paragraph is unnecessary and therefore mean. I agree if it were unnecessary it'd be mean: but I don't think it was unnecessary.

@HodofHod yeah, thanks

@HodofHod So like I said, that is a possible understanding of the word which is trivially synonymous with Halacha. But that doesn't mean the other concepts don't exist, and they match IMO the commonly understood meaning of moral much better.

7:32 PM

@msh210 Sorry. :( I realize not everyone here is very comfortable in Yiddish. (I'm no expert by any stretch, fwiw.)

@HodofHod How do you say "before" (in time) in Yiddish?

@msh210 same way. translate.google.com/#yi/en/%D7%A4%D7%90%D6%B7%D7%A8

@HodofHod oh ok thanks

Yeah, context matters. Much as how in the Gemara "אין" could go either way. (Always bothered me)

@HodofHod No, "אין" always means "in". (They spoke Yiddish in Sura, right?)

2

7:37 PM

@HodofHod Is the position I'm describing making sense? I'm kinda jumping to and from chat as I cook so I don't guarantee my clarity.

@TRiG, I'm sorry to leave you out of the joke :(
Here's my best shot: "What lesson do we learn from the verse "A person should fear (respect) his mother and father"? One has to fear (i.e., avoid) the "exempt" and the "permitted". The words for father and mother in Yiddish are nearly the same as the hebrew words for exempt and permitted.

Hence, the lesson is to go above the letter of the law, and not always does the fact that something is permitted or unpunishable mean one should do it.

@HodofHod Oh, I took "דאַרף מורא האָבן...‏" as meaning "have awe of the permissible" -- meaning of its state as permissible: don't forbid it

@HodofHod Is this actually a bilingual pun?

...but I don't know Yiddish.

@TRiG yes. the words aren't even etymologically related.

I really should (re)learn some languages.

@msh210 Ah. The best kind of pun.

7:43 PM

Ha! Just the opposite. :) Similar to the Alter Rebbe's saying:
"וואס מען טאר ניט טאר מען ניט, און וואס מען מעג דארף מען ניט."
"What one may not, he may not. And what one may, he doesn't need to."

The Ishmael's-name question has two answers virtually identical in content but not in style, one with +1, the other with −1. I guess my style in that answer grates. :-/

@HodofHod This time Lubavitch, not Slonim, I assume?

@msh210 Right. It's a common Chassidic teaching, but I believe even Mussar teaches this, no?

@HodofHod I guess so. I don't know what's included in "mussar".

@DoubleAA I don't understand. Are you saying that for Jews, there exists morality independent of G-d's word?

I intended this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musar_movement
As well as it's ideological predecessors.

@msh210 I've edited his question for him.

@msh210 I suspect you may be right.

@msh210 Would "condescending" be better? Sorry, I should have been more careful with my choice of words, given how sensitive of a subject word choice appears to be for you.

A: Policy regarding changing questions after a period of time?

7:49 PM

7

Once a question has an answer that is considered valuable by either the community (through upvotes) or the asker (through acceptance), no one, including the asker, ought to edit the question in a way that changes its meaning sufficiently to invalidate the existing answer. If people want to get an...

@msh210 "Once a question has an answer that is considered valuable by either the community (through upvotes) or the asker (through acceptance)..." I'd say these answers fall far short of that standard.

@SethJ One answer is upvoted.

But I guess the Q edit doesn't invalidate that answer. Okay.

@HodofHod Not quite. SOrry I can't do this now in depth. We'll speak tomorrow night

@msh210 I can rectify that if you would prefer.

@SethJ haha, no

@SethJ Argh, I can't win. (Not blaming you -- maybe I'm just too literal-minded today.) Maybe it came off condescending. I didn't mean it that way.

@SethJ Anyway, since the Q edit, I'll edit my answer accordingly.

7:52 PM

@msh210 I understand you must be frustrated.

@SethJ judaism.stackexchange.com/posts/26736/revisions

@DoubleAA B'seder. G'Shabbos.

8:11 PM

@HodofHod TLDR right now.

@SethJ Come now. Nobody focused more on his words. I answered the question that IMO he possibly meant as well as the one that IMO he probably meant. Likely Dan did the same.

8:26 PM

Anyway, have a good Shabas, y'all.