@DoubleAA The repetition of בקרב שנים with the second verb makes me favour the latter.

@msh210 I think that's the answer. The Keter has the note on פעלך all the way on the side, so I think it's a Pashta. I think that's the difference.

To think such a subtlety was devised and carefully implemented throughout Tanakh to clarify but a handful of ambiguities.

@msh210 @DoubleAA Are kadma and pashta supposed to be read differently? I learned them as the same sound.

@Scimonster I suppose it depends on your tradition. Do you sing the kadma part of kadma ve-azla the same as pashta? My understanding is that all kadmas are to be sung like that kadma - two notes, with the second just a bit higher than the first, while pashtas are also two notes with the same cadence, but with a greater rise for the second.

I do kadma like the kadma here and pashta like the kadma here (not like the three-note pashta here).

@Scimonster I mean, they are very different notes. I can't tell you what the "original" sounds were, or prove that different notes need different sounds, but it's certainly highly reasonable that they get distinct sounds. Otherwise how can anyone tell if there was a pause there or not?

That would be like saying "comma" and "hyphen" are read with the same intonation in an English sentence. I can't prove to you that it can't be so, but it certainly seems ridiculous and ineffective for communication of the idea.

Same goes for Telisha Gedola and Ketana, btw.

I'll bet that trup implementation is a type of minhag that experiences more divergence than most, as people transmit, deliberately or not, slightly different versions.

@IsaacMoses I do Kadma like your Kadma, and Pashta like their "three-note-pashta" Pashta.

@IsaacMoses Certainly. I've even met someone (a quite talented Ba'al Keriah) who does Kadma before Azla like our Kadma, other Kadmas like my Pashta, and Pashta like their other Kadma. Go figure. As long as you are consistent I can't complain.

@DoubleAA My B"M teacher, unfortunately, told me he's always heard those done the same, and that I should do them the same. My brother, subsequently, learned two different sounds from his teacher, and I tried to adopt that, but it's never stuck. I should practice.

@DoubleAA That sounds strange. The three-note sounds, to me, much more fitting for a pause than either two-note.

@IsaacMoses @DoubleAA I learned to start and end a telisha gedola on the tonic, emphasising its pausal nature, whereas my telisha ketana starts on the tonic and ends on the dominant, ready to lead into the tonic for a kadma.

@magicker72 That's how I do it too.

@DoubleAA Well, it also happens to be that when i learned to lein, it was without a distinct kadma (outside of kadma-v'azla), so now i have to relearn to separate the two notes.

Tlisha g'dola and k'tana i've never had trouble with though. I learned completely different sounds for them.

In fact, i learned practically the reverse of what learntrope.com has for them.

@ephraimhelfgot I've always assumed "yesterday".

@IsaacMoses I do kadma something like your kadma, and pashta something like their the first two notes of their three-note pashta. I think.

@magicker72 Now I want some gin. (In other words: what you said is Greek to me.) I learned the t'lisha as sounding the same except in their respective last notes: for one the last note is the lowest of all, and for the other it's highest. But both of those sound like pauses to me and therefore I never even remember which is which. So I tend to read them the same, or however comes to mind on the spot.

@msh210 Tlisha ktana is conjunctive and the sign goes upwards. Therefore it has a rising sound, leading into the kadma v'azla. Tlisha gdola is disjunctive and the sign goes downwards. Therefore it has a descending sound, with pauses.

I learned to read trop from Rabbi Joshua Silbermintz. I wanted to link to his Wikipedia page in this chat message and am surprised to find that he doesn't have one.

@msh210 I, too, don't remember which is which, which is a shame for our instant comprehension when reading Tanach. It goes to show the value of trup. (Similarly, I'm pretty sure that I'm more likely to know whether a word is spelled with an 'ayin or an aleph than someone who pronounces them the same. Similarly, I've heard that Russians, who have different basic words for light blue and dark blue (like we do for "red" and "pink"), can literally perceive more gradations of shades of blue ...

... than English speakers.)

@Scimonster I don't know what you mean by "the sign goes". In any event, both the one that ends on a high note and the one that ends on a low -- the way I learned them -- sound pausal to me.

@IsaacMoses I don't know about perceiving more, but certainly perceiving faster. That is, on a quick-reaction test "are these identical colors?" they react faster to light blue vs dark blue than anglophones. IIRC.

@msh210 The ktana has the line leading to the circle, going up. The gdola has the line coming out from the circle, going down.

@msh210 OK.

@IsaacMoses I read a book on this once... I'm trying to remember the title/author.

@Scimonster Ah.

@msh210 Think of the tonic as your base-line note. If you sing a song, you'll often start on the base-line note (modulo a before-the-beat lead-in) and end on the same note. This feels comfortable. The dominant is a few notes below (modulo octaves) the base-line note, and it doesn't feel comfortable to end on this note (think: the opening three notes of the Addams Family theme song start on the dominant and end on the tonic).

@Scimonster ... reading right to left?

(without direction, those two descriptions describe the same glyph)

@IsaacMoses That's the only reasonable way to read trop. ;)

@magicker72 In a scale, which is the dominant that you're referring to? The 5th?

@Scimonster Yup.

@magicker72 Still Greek, sorry. By "the opening three notes of the Addams Family theme song" you mean the three quick notes before the first emphasized note in the chorus?

(Obviously I don't know music.)

@msh210 That's right.

(Strange that the note you start and end the song on isn't called "dominant".)

@msh210 It's a tonic in that it relieves you to hear it. I think.

@magicker72 So what's the tonic of Ashk'nazi Chumash reading, please? (I'm not looking for an answer like "C sharp": that'll mean nothing to me. I'm looking for something like "the nth note of a gershayim in this recording".)

@Scimonster Makes sense.

@msh210 I guess it's the note you start most connective trup with.

@IsaacMoses Hm... thinking about it, I guess several of them do start on the same note. I never realized that before.

@msh210 Recorded this for you. Transcription: mapach pashta zakef, tonic dominant tonic tonic dominant la la la tonic, or with all the names, tonic dominant tonic tonic dominant mediant supertonic mediant tonic.

@magicker72 Thank you! But the first and third notes of your mahpach aren't identical. (Right?)

The third sounds higher than the first.

@msh210 And telisha

:29490823 My secret identity ain't so secret with a small bit of work. Also, those notes should be the same, although they might sound different for two reasons: (1) I'm not a great singer, and (2) ascending notes tend to sound higher to us.

@magicker72 Oh, okay.

@magicker72 I see. My low-ending t'lisha ends, I think, higher than yours... it sounds more black-key-ish? to me. Perhaps I can record it today, but not now.

@msh210 If you look at this virtual piano, the keys twttouyut should play the right keys (CGCCGEDEC) for my first recording, and the keys tuyt (CEDC) and tuyw (CEDG) are my telisha gedola and ketana respectively.

My tlisha ktana is CDEDC (keys tyuyt) and my gdola is CBDC (tryt).

@magicker72 My mahpach pashta is twi (with w lasting longest in a long phrase)... maybe. I'm not sure I got any of those right, especially the i.

Maybe it's twu.

@msh210 @IsaacMoses Easy way to distinguish: the conjunctive one leans into the next word (ie on the last letter), and the disjunctive one leans back (ie on the first letter). Think of it like a horse.

@msh210 You're mahpach or pashta?

@DoubleAA Yeah, but [continued]

Shabbat shalom everyone. I'll have to catch up tomorrow night...

@IsaacMoses when I said "But both of those sound like pauses to me and therefore I never even remember which is which." I meant not the symbols (I know the left-hand one is connective and the other is not) but the sounds.

@Scimonster Good Shabas!

@Scimonster mahpach pashta

@msh210 ... and also the names. I can never remember which is "big" and which is "small".

@msh210 The smaller one is the servant (Meshareit).

(that's a mnemonic, not just a statement)

@DoubleAA Yeah, got it, thanks.

Maybe I should record a few p'sukim for your listening pleasure.

(Plural "your".)

I'm not sure which p'sukim to use.

@DoubleAA That doesn't work for zakef of course. (But I have no trouble remembering which is which there.) :-)

@msh210 Might I suggest sefaria.org/Genesis.13.1 which has both Telishas near each other?

@DoubleAA Go right ahead. :-P

@DoubleAA @Scimonster @magicker72 @IsaacMoses Gen. 12:19-13:4. It's the last few p'sukim of an aliya, which is why my final tip'cha and sof pasuk sound different (to me) from the rest.

@msh210 That, incidentally, was in third grade.

This question is significantly different now. I recommend a second look to anyone who saw its previous version.

@IsaacMoses I haven't read the long comment thread. Is everything there obsolete now or was this edit just about one part of it?

@IsaacMoses Now that that question asks why the spoon et al., it's kind-of a duplicate of

@MonicaCellio Looking to answer your question, I came across a link to ^ that question in a comment.

@MonicaCellio I just flagged the ones I think are clearly obsolete as such.

@msh210 Partial. The feather (, bag,) and candle aren't dealt with there.

Finally!

judaism.stackexchange.com/help/badges/84/marshal?userid=2

@IsaacMoses Right. But all of that one is covered here, plus the names issue -- it seems a shame to leave it like that -- a better split would be the names question in one post and the origins/reasons question in another. However, the answers there address only the spoon, so I guess it's okay...

Thanks for actioning those obsoletes. :)

@IsaacMoses Y'yasher kochacha.

@msh210 Baruch Tihyeh

Oh, actually, the older question asks for a reason, and this one asks for a source. So they're not exact dupes even w.r.t. the spoon alone.

@IsaacMoses thank you for your diligence!

@MonicaCellio Always happy to pass work along to good people. ;)

@IsaacMoses You should go mei-chayil el chayil

I am finding the rules of sheva vary from book to book, even within the same pronunciation tradition. How does one know which one to follow?

@Argon ask your [grammatically inclined] rabbi

@IsaacMoses My Rabbi isn't so keen on it, I think, but I can try. He also uses Ashkenazi pronunciation (which often glosses over shevas), while I use Sephardi.

שׁבָּתֿ שָׁלוֹם לְכֻלָּם

What do people think of merging the old q into the newer one?

@Argon To you too!