I see recently a great number of posts about christianism, pseudo innocent questions as if they ask about legitimity of one missionar religious sect or so what about י"ש"ו. I feel that mi Yodeya is too friendly and we are in duty to protect people who are frail. Why moderators do not clean up a l...
@Scimonster I suppose it depends on your tradition. Do you sing the kadma part of kadma ve-azla the same as pashta? My understanding is that all kadmas are to be sung like that kadma - two notes, with the second just a bit higher than the first, while pashtas are also two notes with the same cadence, but with a greater rise for the second.
@Scimonster I mean, they are very different notes. I can't tell you what the "original" sounds were, or prove that different notes need different sounds, but it's certainly highly reasonable that they get distinct sounds. Otherwise how can anyone tell if there was a pause there or not?
That would be like saying "comma" and "hyphen" are read with the same intonation in an English sentence. I can't prove to you that it can't be so, but it certainly seems ridiculous and ineffective for communication of the idea.
I'll bet that trup implementation is a type of minhag that experiences more divergence than most, as people transmit, deliberately or not, slightly different versions.
@IsaacMoses I do Kadma like your Kadma, and Pashta like their "three-note-pashta" Pashta.
@IsaacMoses Certainly. I've even met someone (a quite talented Ba'al Keriah) who does Kadma before Azla like our Kadma, other Kadmas like my Pashta, and Pashta like their other Kadma. Go figure. As long as you are consistent I can't complain.
@DoubleAA My B"M teacher, unfortunately, told me he's always heard those done the same, and that I should do them the same. My brother, subsequently, learned two different sounds from his teacher, and I tried to adopt that, but it's never stuck. I should practice.
@DoubleAA That sounds strange. The three-note sounds, to me, much more fitting for a pause than either two-note.
@IsaacMoses @DoubleAA I learned to start and end a telisha gedola on the tonic, emphasising its pausal nature, whereas my telisha ketana starts on the tonic and ends on the dominant, ready to lead into the tonic for a kadma.
@DoubleAA Well, it also happens to be that when i learned to lein, it was without a distinct kadma (outside of kadma-v'azla), so now i have to relearn to separate the two notes.
Tlisha g'dola and k'tana i've never had trouble with though. I learned completely different sounds for them.
In fact, i learned practically the reverse of what learntrope.com has for them.
@IsaacMoses I do kadma something like your kadma, and pashta something like their the first two notes of their three-note pashta. I think.
@magicker72 Now I want some gin. (In other words: what you said is Greek to me.) I learned the t'lisha as sounding the same except in their respective last notes: for one the last note is the lowest of all, and for the other it's highest. But both of those sound like pauses to me and therefore I never even remember which is which. So I tend to read them the same, or however comes to mind on the spot.
@msh210 Tlisha ktana is conjunctive and the sign goes upwards. Therefore it has a rising sound, leading into the kadma v'azla. Tlisha gdola is disjunctive and the sign goes downwards. Therefore it has a descending sound, with pauses.
I learned to read trop from Rabbi Joshua Silbermintz. I wanted to link to his Wikipedia page in this chat message and am surprised to find that he doesn't have one.
@msh210 I, too, don't remember which is which, which is a shame for our instant comprehension when reading Tanach. It goes to show the value of trup. (Similarly, I'm pretty sure that I'm more likely to know whether a word is spelled with an 'ayin or an aleph than someone who pronounces them the same. Similarly, I've heard that Russians, who have different basic words for light blue and dark blue (like we do for "red" and "pink"), can literally perceive more gradations of shades of blue ...
@Scimonster I don't know what you mean by "the sign goes". In any event, both the one that ends on a high note and the one that ends on a low -- the way I learned them -- sound pausal to me.
@IsaacMoses I don't know about perceiving more, but certainly perceiving faster. That is, on a quick-reaction test "are these identical colors?" they react faster to light blue vs dark blue than anglophones. IIRC.
@msh210 Think of the tonic as your base-line note. If you sing a song, you'll often start on the base-line note (modulo a before-the-beat lead-in) and end on the same note. This feels comfortable. The dominant is a few notes below (modulo octaves) the base-line note, and it doesn't feel comfortable to end on this note (think: the opening three notes of the Addams Family theme song start on the dominant and end on the tonic).
@magicker72 Still Greek, sorry. By "the opening three notes of the Addams Family theme song" you mean the three quick notes before the first emphasized note in the chorus?
@magicker72 So what's the tonic of Ashk'nazi Chumash reading, please? (I'm not looking for an answer like "C sharp": that'll mean nothing to me. I'm looking for something like "the nth note of a gershayim in this recording".)
@msh210 Recorded this for you. Transcription: mapach pashta zakef, tonic dominant tonic tonic dominant la la la tonic, or with all the names, tonic dominant tonic tonic dominant mediant supertonic mediant tonic.
:29490823 My secret identity ain't so secret with a small bit of work. Also, those notes should be the same, although they might sound different for two reasons: (1) I'm not a great singer, and (2) ascending notes tend to sound higher to us.
@magicker72 I see. My low-ending t'lisha ends, I think, higher than yours... it sounds more black-key-ish? to me. Perhaps I can record it today, but not now.
@msh210 If you look at this virtual piano, the keys twttouyut should play the right keys (CGCCGEDEC) for my first recording, and the keys tuyt (CEDC) and tuyw (CEDG) are my telisha gedola and ketana respectively.
@msh210 @IsaacMoses Easy way to distinguish: the conjunctive one leans into the next word (ie on the last letter), and the disjunctive one leans back (ie on the first letter). Think of it like a horse.
@IsaacMoses when I said "But both of those sound like pauses to me and therefore I never even remember which is which." I meant not the symbols (I know the left-hand one is connective and the other is not) but the sounds.
@Scimonster Good Shabas!
@Scimonster mahpach pashta
@msh210 ... and also the names. I can never remember which is "big" and which is "small".
@DoubleAA @Scimonster @magicker72 @IsaacMoses Gen. 12:19-13:4. It's the last few p'sukim of an aliya, which is why my final tip'cha and sof pasuk sound different (to me) from the rest.
@SAH, thanks for the update. I added your popular source back in as documentation of the fact that people call this a tradition. +1 — Isaac Moses29 secs ago
This question is significantly different now. I recommend a second look to anyone who saw its previous version.
@IsaacMoses Right. But all of that one is covered here, plus the names issue -- it seems a shame to leave it like that -- a better split would be the names question in one post and the origins/reasons question in another. However, the answers there address only the spoon, so I guess it's okay...
@IsaacMoses My Rabbi isn't so keen on it, I think, but I can try. He also uses Ashkenazi pronunciation (which often glosses over shevas), while I use Sephardi.
I wear a kippa and tzitzis everday. The source for tzitzit is easy, we say it in shma and it's mentioned in the Gemara in brachot.
The source for the kippa is wholly unknown to me, yet it is such an essential part of my daily life and I'd like to be more informed.
Where is it discussed in Rab...