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1:32 AM
Do you think it would be appropriate to add this as an answer to tex.stackexchange.com/q/129439?
 
1:56 AM
(newer version with more examples: jsfiddle.net/1ajLmavj/1)
 
 
4 hours later…
6:48 AM
Good MAEN ;-)
 
6:59 AM
A nice rep value
 
7:11 AM
Hi, we have possible duplicate:
4
Q: How to see dependencies between theorems

NorbertI have a paper that uses \label for naming theorems, propositions and etc. We say that a theorem, proposition and etc X depends on the theorem, proposition and etc Y if Y is mentioned in the closest proof environment that goes right after X. I wonder if there exists a tool that takes my .tex s...

19
Q: Show graph of references inside a document

C-OttoI have quite a lot of labels and references (around 250 labels, 600 references to those) in my document. As I need to re-arrange parts of the document, I'd like to know which labels are referenced from which parts (and, transitively, which are referenced by the referenced label etc.). In other wo...

 
@michal.h21: I see, you have done a solution already. I tried it too, but had no time, also with exporting a extern file and then use dot program.
 
@ChristianHupfer yes, it was a good reason to relearn how my rdfref (github.com/michal-h21/rdfref) package works, it is quite powerful for such problems
 
@michal.h21: Is it on TeXLive? If not, you should do so!
 
@ChristianHupfer You are using the black top bar? WOW
 
@Johannes_B: Yes? What's so particular about that?
 
7:25 AM
@ChristianHupfer The top bar was grey a while back and when the change came ...
@ChristianHupfer desperate cries to get the old top bar back.
 
@Johannes_B: I am that old, I can't remember the grey top bar :D
 
198
Q: The new top bar is out on meta. Consider it a beta

Jeremy TEDIT Dec 4 - We're doing it live! Please post bugs or concerns as questions tagged [top-bar] We have rolled out our 95% completed top bar for feedback. Note: We are still adding a few final features, so if you have a request for a feature that is not there you might hold off on that for a da...

Dec 5 '13 at 7:40, by Johannes_B
I don't want to nag, but can one at least change the color of the status bar?
 
@Johannes_B: I started in June 2013 here on TeX.SX and I was online for some weeks until my move, after that, I returned in January, so I noted no difference :D
 
@ChristianHupfer you lucky you
 
@Johannes_B: Perhaps the whole site (I mean all of SX) lacks a certain configurability, e.g. visuals of the site
 
7:31 AM
@ChristianHupfer I don't care much about looks, it's the change thats bugging me.
;-)
 
@tohecz You beat me to it trying to remove all of those random lines in the \l@... question :-)
 
@Johannes_B: You could... hm,... ignore it ;-)
 
@ChristianHupfer You i am no good at ignoring ;-)
 
@Johannes_B.... come on... give it a try... forgive and forget... ;-)
I am off, driving 50km to my parental home and renovating it (somehow...) `\begin{renovate}.... error.... error... no \end{renovate} for next 10^10 lines ;-)
See you later on
 
@ChristianHupfer See you :-)
 
7:45 AM
@JosephWright regex FTW :D Just I can't copy-paste large codes into TeXworks, for whatever reason :(
 
@tohecz :-)
@tohecz I've invited the guy to a chat room to try to explain why his approach to understanding the code is really not that great a plan
 
@JosephWright well, I'm already in the room :)
 
@tohecz Saw that: he's not (yet)!
 
@JosephWright I know
 
@ChristianHupfer I need to write documentation first, it is also not finished yet
 
7:50 AM
is Wright here
 
@poplar Hello
 
I am poplar
 
@poplar I can see that
 
you are too kind
thank you for you attention
your
sorry
could you give me some suggestions of learning model development
 
@poplar I think you mean for writing class files
 
7:52 AM
@poplar Model development?
 
exactly!
 
@poplar Don't try to reinvent the wheel: there are lots of good packages that add interfaces to LaTeX for making design changes
 
92
Q: Where do I start LaTeX programming?

sorush-rI'm interested in writing packages for TeX/LaTeX/XeLaTeX. I googled around, but all I found was guides or tutorials about how to prepare documents using LaTeX. I want to know how LaTeX works and how to change it or add new things to it. Which book/guide/tutorial is the most useful source to lea...

 
@poplar For example, I'd use titlesec to customise the appearance of section/chapter/... headings
 
My meaning if customizing it
not start from scratch
 
7:53 AM
Or use a 'rich' class such as KOMA-script
 
is
sorry
 
@poplar well, how complex macros have you ever written? As @Johannes_B says, you can't really build a house if you don't know how to build a wardrobe.
 
@poplar If using a class like memoir or one of the KOMA classes, you don't need titlesec as there are built-in mechanisms.
 
oh, I am a beginner of customizing cls
although I have used latex 5 years
using and developing are two different things.
 
@Johannes_B Also true, although I'm of the 'start with article' school of thought :-)
 
7:56 AM
just a start
a pupil indeed
starter
sorry for missing letter.
 
@JosephWright Comparing book.cls and scrbook.cls (as i did yesterday) i totally agree with you. Having a look at the standard classes is easier for a novice.
 
by all means
the process is hard
where I could find the cls with comments aside.
 
@poplar You'd be much better asking about what you want to achieve than the code that the kernel uses: you can get a long way customising stuff using existing packages without needing to understand everything
 
could you tell me Wright?
 
@poplar Do you mind writing a sentence and then press enter? Reading just two words is hard.
 
7:59 AM
I want to know how other than just grab and use it
 
@poplar The standard classes (article, report, etc.) are documented in a file called classes.dtx, which you can find on your system using kpsewhich classes.dtx at the Command Line/Terminal
 
@poplar Or use texdoc book on the command line to get a nice pdf.
 
@poplar The code comments are meant for people who have some idea of what is going on: they assume a knowledge of The TeXbook and how TeX works at a low level
 
copy and paste is useless for learning, I want to learn the essence.
 
@poplar Why?
 
8:01 AM
@poplar then you have to start with simpler things than modifying the core macros, which are written in a very strange way to be optimized
 
@poplar More precisely, unless you want to get into serious TeX development you probably have outcomes you need rather than understanding every line
 
I only want to see its function, no others. maybe the method is not correct
 
@poplar Like I said, there are a lot of good packages where a developer has worked on one area and understood it: keeping a track of all of LaTeX in one go is pretty tricky (I'm on the LaTeX team and I'd use a package to alter section formatting)
 
i can't search out classes.dtx on my computer
 
@poplar Using an existing hook (a package like titlesec) also helps keeping track of changes and ensures consistency.
 
8:04 AM
@poplar If you really want to learn who it all works, start by learning some TeX primitives: I'd read TeX by Topic then The TeXbook
@poplar The texdoc route really should work: does texdoc book at the Command Line work?
 
shortcut is based on some understanding, maybe I have a poor basis
the book of Knuth?
 
@poplar The TeXbook, yes
@poplar For the 'primitives' alone TeX by Topic is I think more useful
 
got it, tell me how could I search out kpsewhich classes.dtx
 
btw: Why has this discussion moved from the other room to here?
 
@Johannes_B I invited @poplar to chat, he appeared here :-)
 
8:08 AM
@poplar You need to type that into a terminal and hit enter
 
@poplar Open a terminal/command prompt, type kpsewhich classes.dtx, hit enter.
 
wait, I try it
 
@poplar This file alone has almost 4.5k lines.
 
no response
 
@poplar Are you using MiKTeX?
 
8:11 AM
how could I send the fig
sorry, Ctex
 
@poplar What fig?
And what the smurf is Ctex?
 
The snapshot
 
@poplar ctex is a package, not a distribution? Or am i missing something?
 
baffled
 
@poplar I think you are using MiKTeX: it doesn't install all of the source files 'unpacked' so you might not have easy access to classes.dtx. Luckily, you can get it on CTAN: mirrors.ctan.org/macros/latex/base/classes.dtx
@poplar Or read the typeset version online: texdoc.net/pkg/book
 
8:17 AM
@Johannes_B It is also a MikTeX based distro, as far as I can tell. (translate.google.com/…)
 
@poplar As you are interested in \l@..., I guess what you are trying to do is some form of customisation of the appearance of the TOC
 
are they the same version?
 
@poplar What?
 
@poplar You need to be more precise and give more more one or two words if you want us to understand you.
 
My English is limited. :(
 
8:19 AM
@poplar We understand that: we are trying to help, but sometimes a bit of context is needed
 
you are really too warmhearted and sincere. thank you so much.
 
Seems i need to stop talking to others while writing -> chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/17366370#17366370
 
you suggestion is I should learn ftp.leg.uct.ac.za/pub/packages/ctan/macros/latex/base/… first. Am I right?
you are awesome!
 
@poplar Well, you probably should take a look at this if you want to see some commented code for \l@...
 
@poplar You need to read and understand it.
 
8:25 AM
@poplar You should find that \l@part and \l@chapter are very similar: you don't need to learn them separately
@poplar In your question, the only change from the standard definitions seems to be to add leaders (dots) to the TOC for part and chapter
 
sounds good
 
@poplar I'd use tocloft for this:
\documentclass{report}
\usepackage{tocloft}
\renewcommand*\cftpartleader{\cftdotfill{\cftdotsep}}
\renewcommand*\cftchapleader{\cftdotfill{\cftdotsep}}
\begin{document}

\tableofcontents

\part{Amphibians}

\chapter{Frogs}

\section{Tree frogs}

\chapter{Toads}

\chapter{Newts}

\part{Mammals}

\chapter{Apes}

\section{Orang-utans}

\end{document}
 
As you posted on the question page?
I solve the problem of modifying the distance between the part label and the content in the section of table of content like as
\def\@pardis{9em}%
\def\@part[#1]#2{%
\ifnum \c@secnumdepth >-2\relax
\refstepcounter{part}%
\addcontentsline{toc}{part}{\CTEXthepart\hspace{\@pardis}#1}%
\else
\addcontentsline{toc}{part}{#1}%
\fi
\@endpart}
give it a new define, \def\@pardis{9em}% you could set the whatever value you want, then it works
new definition
By the way,Wright, could you do me the favor of telling me the meaning or the function of the last five rows
\begingroup
\parindent \z@ \rightskip \@pnumwidth
\parfillskip -\@pnumwidth
{\leavevmode
\large \bfseries #1
\leaders\hbox{$\m@th\mkern 1.5mu\cdot\mkern 1.5mu$}
\hfil \hb@xt@\@pnumwidth{\hss #2}}\par
\nobreak
\global\@nobreaktrue
\everypar{\global\@nobreakfalse\everypar{}}%
\endgroup
\fi}
 
8:41 AM
@poplar You should mark your code. You can do this by clicking on fixed font on the right.
 
@poplar You meant the \nobreak business?
@poplar As you probably know, \nobreak stops a break happening between the current material and the 'next' stuff
 
from there to the end, total five rows
 
@poplar LaTeX has some commands that should stay 'glued together', most obviously \label (there are others)
@poplar The flag` \if@nobreak` is set true by \@nobreaktrue, and is used to keep any of these 'things' attached to the line we are currently working on. That's always set globally.
 
why set \@nobreaktrue first before it enter the \everypar environmen, and reset it false after entering it?
 
@poplar The \everypar hook is used as a reset: it turns off the flag after some material has begun to be typeset (it is inserted at the start of every paragraph)
@poplar Sequence is : set flag true, set up \everypar to reset it 'later'. After the \l@part command is finished, the next command or text that starts a paragraph will insert \everypar and turn off the no-break flag
@poplar \everypar is a TeX primitive (build-in command)
@poplar A 'good' question for the site might be focussed just on this: 'What is LaTeX's \if@nobreak mechanism for and how does it work?' or similar
 
8:47 AM
@JosephWright Oh oh
@JosephWright I think i am seriously upvoted. Just had 180+ rep within a few minutes
Now i know how egreg feels
 
@Johannes_B Indeed: I can see a pattern and would not be surprised if the auto-reversal mechanism kicks in over night
 
@JosephWright I hope it does.
 
@Johannes_B it quite certainly will
 
let me think a while.
 
@Johannes_B No way to know in advance, but I suspect it will (as I say, I think there is a clear source for these votes)
@Johannes_B Should I post the question? Seems better if @poplar does.
 
8:52 AM
@tohecz @JosephWright A rep of 200+ a day looks strange. I want to go back to nil or 10+ :-)
@JosephWright What question?
 
@Johannes_B About \if@nobreak
 
very necessarily!
 
@JosephWright I think it's better if @poplar does it.
@JosephWright my previous »Oh oh« was related to my upvotes.
 
@Johannes_B Ah
@Johannes_B All clear now
 
OK, I will do it, by the way, I need a confirmation
 
8:56 AM
@Johannes_B I think you'll be OK
 
@JosephWright Of course ;-) I managed other things in my life.
@poplar Confirmation on what?
 
your meaning is, we set flag \@nobreak true for the sake of prohibiting page splitting. they after the \lpart, we should let the page could break, therefore we reset \@nobreak false. Am I right?
your meaning is, we set flag \@nobreak true for the sake of prohibiting page splitting. After the \lpart, we let the page could break recover, therefore we reset \@nobreak false. Am I right?
 
@JosephWright I think the four badges will also be lost :-)
 
the aim of these statements are like this: the \@nobreak true in only confined to \l@part. Once it runs out of \l@part, then, \@nobreak should be reset to false.???
 
@poplar No
 
9:06 AM
@poplar It would be best to post a question concerning \@nobreak on the main page, as it is of interest for other users as well.
 
@poplar As @Johannes_B says, this is a broader question, but basically the idea is that there are some following things where you still want to prevent a break
 
I have posted it
0
Q: 'What is LaTeX's \if@nobreak mechanism for and how does it work?

poplarTaking the following example for the sake of explanation; \begingroup \parindent \z@ \rightskip \@pnumwidth \parfillskip -\@pnumwidth {\leavevmode \large \bfseries #1 \leaders\hbox{$\m@th\mkern 1.5mu\cdot\mkern 1.5mu$} \hfil \hb@xt@\@pnumwidth{\hss #2}}\par \nobreak \global\@nobr...

 
@poplar You should add code markup to your question
 
how to do it
I have no idea of how to mark the code
could you tell me how to use the tool
seems to me very complex :(
 
9:22 AM
@poplar I have done so, as you've probably seen. For more information about formatting posts, see tex.stackexchange.com/help/formatting
 
yes, I have seen it, thank you.
 
10:04 AM
Temporarily back ;-)
@PauloCereda: Welcome back to the LaTeX thingy ;-)
 
@ChristianHupfer Danke! :)
 
@JosephWright:: Thanks for that edit... I missed it somehow!
@PauloCereda: I am off for an hour or something like that... have nice time!
 
@ChristianHupfer You too! :)
 
10:50 AM
@PauloCereda there?
\nobreak %does it means no breaking here?
\global\@nobreaktrue %set the flag \@nobreak true? since, there are somethings next stilled needed to be attached to the current line?
\everypar{\global\@nobreakfalse\everypar{}}% why set the \@nobreak false after %coming into \everpar
\endgroup
\fi}
In fact, I am still can catch Wright's explanation.
Is David Carlisle here?
@JosephWright Hi
 
11:06 AM
@poplar Hello
 
    \nobreak %means no breaking here?
    \global\@nobreaktrue %set the flag \@nobreak true? since, there are somethings           stilled needed to be attached to the current line?
    \everypar{\global\@nobreakfalse\everypar{}}% why set the \@nobreak false        after %coming into \everpar
    \endgroup
    \fi}
right?
 
@poplar Broadly
 
means prohibiting page splitting before a new paragraph?
once you enter the paragraph page splitting are permitted.
means prohibiting page splitting before a new paragraph?
to tell you the truth, I am still unclear about it.
 
@poplar That's about right
 
really, why it set this requirement for the table of content of part?
means a part could be layed out at the bottom of a page, then the first chapter of this part could be layed out at a new page?
 
11:21 AM
There's a kitten in the surroundings!
I should bring my cricketeer duck back. :)
 
@PauloCereda means what?
 
@Sonia: Hello, welcome to the chatroom! :)
@poplar There's a person in here with a kitten avatar, that's all.
 
I see :)
Sonia
@PauloCereda could you give me a confirmation of what I just typed
 
@poplar Possibly one for @DavidCarlisle: I'm not quite sure what the danger is for a break in the TOC
 
@poplar What Joseph said. ^^
 
11:27 AM
@DavidCarlisle is not online for the moment.
 
@JosephWright: In other news, do you have a couple of minutes to spare in the afternoon? I have some news about stuff. :)
 
share it, please
maybe I have catch the meaning of break in the TOC after a several experiments.
does everyone want to know?
 
11:44 AM
@poplar I'm always online:-)
 
The actual experiment shows that: when using the above settings, the next paragraph(usually the first chapter corresponding to the current Part) should not be separated from the part(current) when the page splitting occurs. the following paragraph(all the following Chapters, Sections, subsections...etc.) , however, could be laid out on the new page. That's it, Am I right? Wright? of course the context is in the Toc.
@DavidCarlisle Hi, thank you in person David, :) could you give me a confirmation?
Above statement is based on my experiment I just performed.
 
@poplar As I commented on your initial question, asking questions like this seems a bizarre (and ineffective) way to learn latex. Why are you asking about this stuff, if you are trying to change a table of contents to get some different layout, why not ask about that ?
 
@DavidCarlisle Only customizing, therefore unknowing their function is necessary.
customizing is based on knowing.
 
@poplar I have no idea why the toc code you have shown fragments of is using the afterheading and nobreak code. the standard definitions do not. The code looks suspiciously meaningless, but without looking at the full class(which I don't intend to do) I can't say for sure.
 
@poplar Knowledge based on trial and error might lead to wrong assumptions. :)
2
 
11:57 AM
@DavidCarlisle Thank you David, in fact, I have understood almost all the contents except this question and could do the customizing work. Everyone has its own learning ways. Since you are master now, maybe you it seems ineffective to you.
@DavidCarlisle of course, I could not master it without you help(your explanation give me much confidence). I really appreciate your great help, David :)
@DavidCarlisle DavidCarlisle of course, I could not master it without your help(your explanations give me much confidence). I really appreciate your great help, David :)
@PauloCereda sometimes
 
@poplar but you can say what do you want.
@poplar do you want examples of bad code based on trail and error? I have a good number of these.
 
@tohecz what I need is the confirmation. the statement is based on the understanding of JosephWright's explanation and my understanding. I am, however, are not sure? That's ll
 
@poplar this thing (part on the bottom of a ToC and its first chapter on the next page of ToC) would basically be wrong.
 
This case should be prohibited as \nobreak is true
 
@poplar well as I say the code doesn't do anything: it sets the nobreak flag to true then sets it to false at the start of the next paragraph. On its own that does nothing, unless there is some other code that is used before the start of the paragraph that checks the value of this flag.
 
12:09 PM
@DavidCarlisle this. Because as we try to convince you, LaTeX is not a clever box that interprets things the way you believe it should interpret them, rather it does so in the way Knuth made it, and it's not an easy stuff.
 
how could I post a figure?
 
@poplar here? the "upload" button to the right of the text box
 
does the chat room support figure posting?
 
@poplar yep
 
@tohecz only the send button appears on the right of the text box.
 
12:12 PM
@poplar \@nobreaktrue is not some primitive that affects the built in page breaker it just a macro that does \let\if@nobreak=\iftrue ie it defines one command name to be the same as \iftrue that is all it does. You haven't shown any code checking if@nobreak so most likely setting it to true or false has no effect at all.
 
@poplar ah there's a 100 rep limit :-/
 
@tohecz could you snapshot a figure and show where the button of upload lies? thank you
 
@poplar it's not there for you because you don't have enough rep points
(which is really ridiculously stupid, btw)
 
oh, I see :(
when change @nobreaktrue to @nobreakfalse, the lay out of the TOC are totally different.
when changing @nobreaktrue to @nobreakfalse, the lay out of the TOC are totally different.
@DavidCarlisle the whole code is
\renewcommand*\l@part[2]{%
\ifnum \c@tocdepth >-2\relax
\addpenalty{-\@highpenalty}%
\addvspace{2.25em \@plus\p@}%
\begingroup
\parindent \z@ \rightskip \@pnumwidth
\parfillskip -\@pnumwidth
{\leavevmode
\large \bfseries #1
\leaders\hbox{$\m@th\mkern 1.5mu\cdot\mkern 1.5mu$}
\hfil \hb@xt@\@pnumwidth{\hss #2}}\par
\nobreak
\global\@nobreaktrue
\everypar{\global\@nobreakfalse\everypar{}}%
\endgroup
\fi}
 
@poplar so some code is checking \if@nobreak and doing something different depending if it's true or not: but without seeing the code it coudl do anything it does not have to be related to page breaking \if@nobreak hello\else goodbye\fi is perfectly good code. You might hope the original programmer used variable names as a hint rather than to obfuscate, but teh system doesn't care either way
 
12:21 PM
@DavidCarlisle The \@nobreak stuff is in the base classes :-)
 
@poplar That's the code you posted before, it just shows if@nobreak being set to true then to false, it doesn't show anything testing the value
 
E.g. report:
 
yep
 
\newcommand*\l@part[2]{%
  \ifnum \c@tocdepth >-2\relax
    \addpenalty{-\@highpenalty}%
    \addvspace{2.25em \@plus\p@}%
    \setlength\@tempdima{3em}%
    \begingroup
      \parindent \z@ \rightskip \@pnumwidth
      \parfillskip -\@pnumwidth
      {\leavevmode
       \large \bfseries #1\hfil \hb@xt@\@pnumwidth{\hss #2}}\par
       \nobreak
         \global\@nobreaktrue
         \everypar{\global\@nobreakfalse\everypar{}}%
    \endgroup
  \fi}
 
@DavidCarlisle The context is in the l@part command \renewcommand*\l@part[2]
if I have the privilege, I could show the effect to all of you
 
12:22 PM
@JosephWright: can I poke you later on? :)
 
@PauloCereda Yes
 
@JosephWright /pokes, /runs
:)
@Joseph: I'll finish a couple of tasks, then officially poke you. :)
 
@DavidCarlisle it of course belongs to a whole thesis cls.
 
@poplar OK I thought your original question said chapter, it's in reports l@part, ok so if@nobreak is tested in various places in latex.ltx eg \markboth
 
@tohecz: Tom! <3
 
12:25 PM
@PauloCereda Hi! I hope you feel better! :)
 
@tohecz Now I do. :) I slept a lot better. :)
 
@PauloCereda good to hear :)
 
@DavidCarlisle it belongs to a whole Thesis. And in effect it works when change \@nobreak from true to false.
 
@poplar Why change it then?
@poplar I now know what's going on here :-)
 
@JosephWright Check and mate. :P
 
12:27 PM
Small expl3 question: f expansion vs x expansion. Could you explain why are different, and then give a useful example showing the advantages of one vs the other?
 
of course the part, chapter, section, subsection are all set deliberately.
 
And, extra, what does V do exactly.
 
@JosephWright since you will never know all the kinds of cases of all the useers
 
@Manuel x-type expansion expands everything while f-type stops at teh first unexpandable token
@Manuel x-type expansion is not itself expandable, f-type is
 
@JosephWright just like debug, you know.
 
12:29 PM
@Manuel V-type expansion recovers the value of a variable (when we still used toks this was even more handy than it is now)
 
@JosephWright in case of the worst,just like debug, you know.
 
@poplar I'll write up an answer soon
 
@JosephWright am I right or wrong?
 
@JosephWright I meant the usefulness of stoping expansion in the first unexpandable token. @DavidCarlisle I know, but I'm too new to TeX, so that's not really “old engine” for me :)
 
@Manuel It's the difference between \romannumeral and \edef (new names, but it's the same old engine underneath:-)
 
12:31 PM
@Manuel Which one?
@DavidCarlisle Indeed
 
@JosephWright The actual experiment shows that: when using the above settings, the next paragraph(usually the first chapter corresponding to the current Part) should not be separated from the part(current) when the page splitting occurs. the following paragraph(all the following Chapters, Sections, subsections...etc.) , however, could be laid out on the new page. That's it
 
@DavidCarlisle Well \romannumeral-`q or whatever but yes
@poplar Yes, i know: I'll explain in a few minutes (writing an answer now)
 
@JosephWright Do you ever use rommannumeral for anything else? surely not for making roman numbers:-) Next you'll be telling me that \lowercase is for lowercasing text.
 
@JosephWright take you time, thank you.
 
@JosephWright Sorry, edited the message :)
 
12:34 PM
@DavidCarlisle No, don't think I do
@DavidCarlisle expl3 does real roman numerals by hand
 
And V type… but how is it more intelligent than x or f?
 
@Manuel Two uses: it's expandable and it doesn't choke on non-expandable stuff
 
@Manuel consider something line \multicolumn that needs to be expanded (f style) to check that it starts with \omit to have its magic table properties but you don't want to edef expand it and all its arguments (actually that expansion happens automatically in tabular but f expansion allows you to force it by hand, which is useful sometimes
 
@Manuel f-type expansion is like typesetting, so is handy for picking up some places where TeX would do expansion if 'left alone' (see l3galley)
@Manuel We use f-type expansion to pre-evaluate numbers in a lot of the expandable int code, for example.
@DavidCarlisle Yes, l3galley does that for the '\par trick'
 
@DavidCarlisle Over my limit of knowledge :)
 
12:38 PM
@Manuel Essentially checks if a \the is needed before the argument to get TeX to expand it
 
@JosephWright Okey. I guess this is a little over my limit, so I will rethink about it in some time, with some more ideas about how all of this works :)
 
@Manuel We've tried to describe things in our own terms: we know we need a better f-type example
 
@Manuel think what happens with a normal macro like \textbf or \section the macro is expanded then tex looks at the first token, if that is a macro, (just) that is expanded, then look at the first token if that is a macro ... then finally the first token is a non expandable token so tex does that (typesets a letter or changes font or whatever) f type expansion is like this except it stops at the first non expandable token and you get the expanded token list.
 
@JosephWright there?
 
Quick English question: Can I say that an algorithm is clumsy if it's complicated, possibly slow, etc.?
 
12:47 PM
@DavidCarlisle The idea is there, but since I haven't thought ever about it, I don't make any conclusion from that. If all the content is expandable… then it expands it like x but being itself expandable inside another f expansion, is that right? What I don't see clearly is the case where there are <expandable things><non expandable things><expandable things> inside a macro. In that case f expands the first part and it stops… so f might not be expected to be used in those cases.
 
@tohecz o.O
 
@poplar See my answer
 
I love it. :)
 
@PauloCereda what? A clumsy algorithm?
 
@tohecz Yep. :)
 
12:48 PM
@Manuel See for example
\cs_new:Npn \int_case:nnTF #1
  {
    \tex_romannumeral:D
    \exp_args:Nf \@@_case:nnTF { \int_eval:n {#1} }
  }
 
@PauloCereda but you're not a native speaker :P
 
Notice that the idea here is to force evaluation of #1 before doing the case test, but that as \int_case:nnTF is expandable we can't use x-type expansion
 
@tohecz That's the beauty of it, I can call an algorithm clumsy and no one will blame me. :P
 
@PauloCereda well, I call my own algorithm clumsy
 
@tohecz What happened?
I can think of some common words.
 
12:51 PM
@PauloCereda it's WIP, therefore it's not really something I want to present
 
@tohecz :)
Perhaps if you describe it in terms of big O notation. :)
 
yet I should report that something was done in that direction during my PhD midterm
 
@JosephWright I'm not sure abot what you wanted there… \int_case:nnTF should be \int_case:fnTF? and then using \tex_romannumeral:D and \exp_args:Nf… uff… Don't worry, I will revisit this in the future. Thank you for the help.
 
@Manuel Most of the examples are quite low-level, I'm afraid
 
@JosephWright very detailed, let me comprehend it. :) thank you!
 
12:56 PM
@Manuel \int_case:nnTF has two n-type arguments as they are not expanded before passing to some base function. In the same way, \int_eval:n has an n-type argument even though it's expanded as part of the 'use'.
\int_eval:n = \number\numexpr#1\relax
 
does any one know if listings packages allows frame around the listing to fit automatically tight around the listing? i.e. the frame width will automatically adjust the the longest line in the listing? This option is only available with fancybox it seems. I am looking at listing document now and do not see such an option: frame=<none,leftline,topline,bottomline,lines,single,shadowbox> thought to check
I do not want to set the width explicitly myself like here tex.stackexchange.com/questions/83614/… since I do not know what it the right value is each time.
 
1:33 PM
@JosephWright I have looked through your answer, very helpful and detailed. To put it in simple sentenes. the first \nobreak prohibits page splitting before the part and the first chapter(in context or our question); \global\@nobreaktrue works with the command \nobreak to achieve this function, therefore the flage \@nobreak must be needed and be set true. \everypar{\global\@nobreakfalse\everypar{}}% breaks are allowed for the following Chapter/Section/Subsection....etc, yes or no?
 
@poplar Yes
 
@JosephWright thank you indeed! You are always so nice. :)
 
2:19 PM
Classicthesis, always fun.
 
2:57 PM
Hello, for anyone interested in, some days before, I had the question about my document
I went to printer guy, giving him very precise information about how he should do it (regarding your input)
and he said: "yes, yes, sure sure"
managed to print the low-cost cheap ones properly
(2x)
for the expensive ones (bookstyle), he failed it and did initial printing on 2 pages, so the numbering of pages was interior
= I received 2 free book printings :D
because of his failure
hehe
The result itself was pretty satisfying then
 
@Jens Everybody wins. :)
 
yep! :)
 
3:23 PM
@PauloCereda @Jens :)
 
@cgnieder: having fun with the tool? :)
 
3:57 PM
@JosephWright: Know anything about what might be going on with:
0
Q: Recent (one year) change in the handout mode of Beamer?

Micha HofriHelp requested for the handout mode of the beamer class. I have been using it fairly minimally for a few years. About a year ago the handout mode stopped producing all the pages. The presentation mode works fine. This is my preamble for the handout: \documentclass[xcolor=pst,dvips,11pt,hando...

 
@Werner Probably pgf
 
@JosephWright Yup.
 
@Werner I'd really need version numbers to try tracking it down in beamer
 
@JosephWright True...
 
@Werner I use some pretty similar settings myself for my handouts (which I'm doing now in preparation for a new term). For me, in pdfmode, all is fine.
@Werner For my handouts I have
  \pgfpageslogicalpageoptions{1}{border code=\pgfstroke}
  \pgfpageslogicalpageoptions{2}{border code=\pgfstroke}
  \pgfpageslogicalpageoptions{3}{border code=\pgfstroke}
  \pgfpageslogicalpageoptions{4}{border code=\pgfstroke}
  \pgfpagesuselayout{4 on 1}[a4paper, border shrink = 5 mm, landscape]
 
 
1 hour later…
5:32 PM
@JosephWright should I make this an answer, or close as something (off topic?) tex.stackexchange.com/questions/198161/…
 
@DavidCarlisle well, was it his mistake that it happened or is it some general strange behaviour?
 
@tohecz his mistake that he used lyx, perhaps:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle well, then it's not offtopic :p
 
@tohecz I have never even seen lyx so I have no idea if it was a lyx configuration error initially.
 
@DavidCarlisle yep, I see
wel, I would zap it
 
5:45 PM
@tohecz I wish there was a sensible close reason that doesn't imply to a new user that they did something wrong in asking the question
 
do you say "useful to future visitors" or "useful to further visitors"?
 
@tohecz future
 
@DavidCarlisle This question appears to be off-topic because the problem is too localized: it is too specific to be useful to any future visitors. Sounds good?
 
@tohecz I guess so (voted)
 
@tohecz The offtopicness of this question reflects on it's localization matter. No near future usage of such affairs. :P
 
5:47 PM
@DavidCarlisle The template he mentions (which is part of a LyX installation) sets dvips as the graphics driver.
 
@PauloCereda that's what I tried to express :)
 
now excuse me, I have to go home. It's almost 8pm. However, I'll continue working there, the deadline is tomorrow and I need to print it and bind it
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh no!
 
@PauloCereda Not enough rain
 
5:54 PM
padla
I mean, gotta go, see you later
 
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