It seems my question has struck a chord.

But I agree with the answer. It really is impossible.

And discipline really is something meant to be done in private...

@LCIII - I would be happy to discuss this with you here. If it's not too contentious, we can start with the example of your wife hitting you for bad behavior, telling you how she expects you to behave in the future, then giving you a hug and a kiss. What is your honest gut reaction to such a scenario?

@LCIII - and please don't think everyone is against you. Lots of questions here strike a chord, sometimes quite surprisingly.

@anongoodnurse Thanks! I don't want to be contentious either. I like hearing every point of view.

@LCIII Hi, I'm here. :-)

Please let me start out by saying I don't think every instance of corporal punishment is abusive.

@LCIII What I find more disturbing is not respecting the valid feelings of others.

@anongoodnurse Regarding this, I think the situation is fundamentally different. Neither my wife nor I believe we are in positions to discipline one another (this would be in contrast to, say, Saudi Arabia). And I think the situation is different with us and our kids. I think by virtue of having children I have a responsibility to train them up and discipline them and that I have authority over them.

@LCIII I understand that fully, but say it were to happen. What would your reaction be?

Furthermore, I think that the physical discipline from a parent is itself not moral or immoral. It's just a tool like time-outs or whatever. A spanking can be a beat down or flick on the hand.

@anongoodnurse I'd be hurt and I'd wonder why she did that. So I'd probably yell "Why did you do that!?"

I'm not so much discussing physical as emotional abuse.

I think I know where you're going here.

@anongoodnurse I see

You would be angry, then.

@anongoodnurse More hurt than angry, but yeah. Angry, too.

And justifiably, correct?

I guess

OK, hurt and angry is even better.

Even better?

I know where you're taking this

I think I know anyway

Now suppose your wife then wanted to give you a hug and a kiss right after, without apologizing.

would you welcome that?

No I wouldn't. I'd want an explanation.

Or would you shy away from her "loving" touch.

Right. And that is normal.

I'd want to know why she did that and why she would think it was OK.

my question to you is why do you think children feel any differently?

Do you think children aren't hurt and angry when they are hit?

Do you think they can't feel that betrayal yet at their age?

I'm not here to "trick" you. I'm hoping to share my experience with you.

@LCIII You can feel comfortable being honest. I won't use it against you.

No, I appreciate it. It's good to have beliefs challenged. I'm not against being wrong.

neither am I, truly.

None of us have all the answers.

For starters, let me frame all this by saying that I think my son is crazy about me, and I'm crazy about him. I come home and he runs to me and yells DADDY and that makes me so happy. I would never intentionally do something that I thought was psychologically messing him up. In fact, I think the very consistent discipline we give him has been tantamount to why he is such a wonderful little and why him and I have such a great relationship.

I believe you. I really do. But the question stands. Can children, young children, feel betrayed by their parents?

I always get scared talking about physical punishment to people I don't know because I always think that they think I'm beating my kids and they live in constant fear of me. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Now to answer your question

@anongoodnurse I think my son feels differently because, in his little eyes, I'm the invincible, all-powerful, law-giving, super-dad. That's how kids see their parents. That's how our kids see mommy and I. I tell them that they're getting a consequence (we don't use the word "spanking") and I tell them why. Then I deal it out. 90% of the time, my son initiates the hug. He knows I don't enjoy causing him pain but he has also learned that I "have" to. So in his eyes, justice is being served.

I never force a hug on him.

This is a fundamentally different relationship than i have with my wife. This is also why I don't expect to be spanking my son past age 8 or 9 because by then he's old enough to have his actions explained.

I'm glad to hear that your son is the initiator of the hug. It changes the situation significantly.

But you still haven't addressed my question. It seems like your answer is fundamentally "no" because you can't, in his eyes, make a mistake.

"Consequence" is a label. It doesn't change the fact of the matter. I believe in consequences. I also believe most people don't want a real consequence to bad behavior.

@anongoodnurse The more I think about, the more I'm convinced I can't really answer your question without inviting you into my world and seeing exactly how I give out punishment. All the little nuances is what makes what I'm describing to you either psychological abuse or not.

A "consequence" can be legitimate (a fine for illegal parking) or not legitimate (sriracha sauce in the mouth for using a curse word). "Consequence" is the label used by the person in the position of power.

@LCIII OK, I'm up for that.

I never give a consequence when I'm mad. My wife and I are good about holding each accountable to this. I never spank harder for "big" offenses. It's consistent, and my son knows that once the consequence is over then the issue is over.

@LCIII Or, maybe you don't want me to invade your world; I understand that too.

Honestly, I think the way that some parents do time outs can be WAY more relationally detrimental to kids because the kids never really know when the parent stopped being mad

That's an interesting point, and a pretty good one.

If I do something bad and my parent says "Go to your room!" I have a theatre in my mind just imagining how mad my parent is.

I think I agree with you.

I agree with you.

I think "consequences" given without consideration are wrong.

When I give a consequence, I strive to make it clear that the issue is over and done and Daddy isn't mad at all. i think that's my main motiviation behind making sure I give them a hug/kiss afterwards.

OK. Still...

@anongoodnurse Totally. Especially around bed time and stuff like that. It just riles them up more.

yep.

@LCIII Still... do you think a child can feel hurt and angry at you. Plain and simple.

And I think my kids like it. For sure my son, if I gave him a consequence and didn't hug him afterwards I know he would think I'm still mad or something.

Fair enough, and a good point.

And see, this is one of those things that I don't expect anyone to believe unless they are in my house and see my family

No, LCIII, You're not correct about that. I'm sorry, but I do not agree with you there.

bout what

You certainly know your child, while I do not.

do you think a child can feel hurt and angry at you? Plain and simple.

(I don't agree that I can't have any knowledge about something I am not a direct witness to.)

There are all kinds of fallacies. One is "Argument from Age" meaning someone with more experience has a more valuable point of view simply because they are "older and wiser" than you are. If this feels like where I'm leading you, call out that fallacy; It's a valid fallacy to keep in mind.

@anongoodnurse Absolutely. Sorry, you asked this earlier and I missed it.

I am not saying my opinion is valuable because I'm older and more experienced.

There is also a fallacy called "Argument from Authority". I won't pull that on you, either, even though I've been working with people for decades.

@anongoodnurse No problem. I like being asked questions. I didn't know you were older, either.

lol, yeah, lots. :-)

I think, though, that you might have gotten the impression that after I give a consequence I force a hug on my kid no matter what even if he's mad at me or something. I don't do that ☺

In fact, the whole "hug after a consequence" thing was never really planned at the start but is just sort of happened and now it's routine.

I will believe you for the moment. But you have not answered my basic question.

@anongoodnurse Sorry, I'm all over the place. What Q was that?

Do you think a child has the capacity and the presence of mind to feel hurt, angry, or betrayed by/with/by you?

@anongoodnurse I think my son, who is 3, does have that ability, yes. And I'm sure he's felt that way before.

OK.

I believe it as well.

The question, for me, is: do you respect the child's right to feel this way?

@anongoodnurse Uh, yes? I can't say I've thought a lot about it (maybe I'm overly insensitive) but for the sake of your question: Yes, I respect the child's right to feel that way.

OK. That is, I believe, one of the most important parts of trust. The trust of your child is paramount, as is the trust between your wife and yourself. It didn't sound, from your question, that you were taking your child's feelings into consideration when giving consequences.

That was the issue I was reacting to.

The breach of trust that occurs when one's feelings are not recognized.

Trust is something that once it's been damaged is very, very hard to reconstruct. All I'm saying is that children have feelings that they will not always share with you because:

@anongoodnurse I totally understand. I obviously didn't give a deep explanation of every little nuance that is involved in how consequences happen in my house, and just settled for "...I give him a consequence, then I hug him..." That leaves a lot to the imagination.

@anongoodnurse ...listening

Right! That's what I thought, too.

1) children don't have the vocabulary to express their feelings adequately. It does not mean the feelings aren't there.

2) The power imbalance is overwhelming. A child is frightened to incur the disapproval of the parent, meaning they will often not tell the parent they are hurt, angry, etc.

3) Parents don't often allow their children to express such "opinions".

There are other reasons as well. But please, believe me, children can and do feel a multitude of things about their treatment that they do not articulate.

I just think it's really important to consider these possibilities when giving consequences; really, just in general, every day situations as well.

That's all.

@anongoodnurse I agree with all of that.

Then I have no real issue with your parenting, and apologize for any antagonism I may have engendered.

@anongoodnurse No antagonism felt. I'm glad I could hear your point of view. I had a feeling that we would end finding more things to agree on than on which to disagree.

When I was six, I loved my parents so much that I told them I never wanted to get married because I couldn't imagine not living with them! :D

So I think that's an indication that I loved them.

Yet my father believed in corporal punishment.

I still couldn't imagine anything coming between us.

:)

That is great. I like encountering level-headedness.

But, but... I grew to hate my father...

oh

yea, bummer, right?

Why?

Because he had no respect for me or my feelings, many of which were quite legitimate.

It became apparent as I grew older.

That's what I mean about trust and its irreperability.

That's not the ideal.

I prayed long and hard to forgive my father

but I did not.

I honored him because I'm called to.

But I did not love him at all any more.

What called you to it?

And he felt that, though I tried to keep it to myself.

Called me to what?

OH, I'm sorry.

I'm a Christian.

I am called to honor my Father and my Mother.

But, if you read Scripture, I am not called to honor them because they deserve it.

I'm called to honor them so that I may prosper in the land that God has given to me.

In other words, the honoring is better for my well being than the bitterness.

Would that I could have forgiven him as well.

But I did not.

And that will probably always be there, though it's lessening as I get older.

I see. That was my guess. I supposed I was trying to draw it out.

I'm not too quiet about my Christianity. I acknowledge it, though many people on SE sites are atheists.

If I can prevent a few parents from feeling the hostility of a broken child, or a few children from feeling the lack of respect of their parents, I will have done something worthwhile.

You might be thinking, I'm not like her father. And you are completely justified in saying that.

I don't imagine you are anything like him.

I sure hope not

He gave us horsey rides, and piggy-back rides. He let us make him up with my mother's make up. He let us (girls) roll his hair in bobby pins, and tickled us, and sang us songs. He was really a lot of fun.

He took us camping, and fishing. He taught me to fish.

He told us endless stories about all the wonderful jobs he's had, which really were adventures.

He was a forest ranger, and a trainer for boxers. He was a logging camp cook. He was a sargant in WWII and landed in Normandy. He had a few choice words to say about Patton.

He told jokes, as often as we asked for them.

But he also punished us severely with a belt when he believed we had misbehaved. Even when we hadn't.

And he did it... calmly.

Anyway, it's water under the bridge now.

I'm sure you're not like him, and I mean that.

One time, he told me not to play with the landlord's kids because he had had a fight with the landlord.

I was about five, and they were playing in the yard, and asked me if I wanted to play nurse (they were soldiers fighting a war, of course). And I forgot. And when my father found out, I got the belt.

Again, long story short, kids can feel betrayed. Just please know that kids have feelings as strong but more delicate than your own.

I remember last year my dad asked me if I could think of any time growing up when he spanked me when I didn't deserve it. I replied "Hmmm. None come to mind, but you probably did." Then we both laughed.

:-)

That's interesting, because I was planning on asking my kids this weekend to tell me about some transgressions they might remember! :D

@CreationEdge I agree. When time-outs were over, it was over.

@anongoodnurse This is good advice for me. Growing up my family was fun but we were all super insensitive and had a love for conflict. That was normal for me. My wife comes from a family that valued peace above all else. I've had a lot to learn from her about being sensitive to feelings ☺

@CreationEdge Wow! We wouldn't have got away with that. Ours were bare-bottom! :-/

@CreationEdge I hated bare bottom. lol! clever.

I don't think my father was really much in touch with his own feelings, though.

That's not something I, or my family, suffers from.

Mine too. And his own father died when he was 12, so he had to drop out of school to support his family (as did the older brothers).

The ironic thing is is that spanking didn't work as well with me after the age of 6 or 7. I was such a sanguine I would just take the pain and forget about it and disobey again. My dad then started giving me timeouts and they were 100x worse to my spazzy brain than spankings. if he were more consistent with it I probs would have been better behaved.

@CreationEdge wow.

Spanking had no effect on me after a certain age either. But then I was the angel of the family! Haha!

Really, I was nothing compared to my older brother and my sister. What hellions they were.

We all handled things in a different way.

Mine was to fly under the radar as much as possible.

My brother's was to invite beatings.

My sister's was to sneak around, even in the middle of the night, she's climb out of the window and come back before dawn.

@CreationEdge I totally understand.

I was never able to set that limit.

But I respect those who can.

It's probably why I harp on boundaries so much now.

@CreationEdge What allowed you to invite him back into your life?

Sad. But he did pick up the ball years later?

That's good, for both of you.

That sucks.

Is it pride, do you think?

I have a hard time telling pride from bullying because of insecurity.

Borderlines are hard. I have one in my family. It's a lot like just walking on eggshells because you never know when she's going to take something personally which was never intended that way.

I do think parenting ... who spoke about parenting when my father was doing it? They just did what they learned. I'm glad it's not that way any more!

Did that go well?

Yes. It's hard to get families together now, it seems.

wow, that's really admirable!

Did your father come from a big family?

Mine had 11 children in his family!

(My mom, 13!)

Oh... that's really good of you.

Ugh.

What a burden to carry.

sad.

I could never let a child feel that way, but then, it's kind of... well, it's not a secret.

Gosh, that makes me think, I read a line recently that gave me pause:

Toxic parents make toxic siblings.

I wondered what was wrong with my family, because we did that as well.

I cut my brother out of my life, my sister cut me out, etc.

It is very sad.

My sister had cut my mother out of her life, and didn't speak to her until she was on her death bed, literally.

I had to call her and tell her our mom was dying, and if she ever wanted to talk to her, she'd have to do it now.

But... I hope I did a better job than my parents. My kids are all adults now, and they don't seem to be angry with me. :-)

They all live in the same town now as we do, too! I'm enjoying that while it lasts. :-)

@CreationEdge - Do you teach?

Good chatting!

@LCIII I'm sorry I didn't acknowledge this. Conflict is a funny thing. Some people meet it head on, others avoid it at all costs. It's tremendously valuable to learn to deal with conflict respectfully and sensitively. Both you and your wife can learn valuable things from each other, I'm sure. And modelling good (and healthy) conflict resolution for kids is really a gift to them.

@LCIII - "Growing up my family was fun but we were all super insensitive and had a love for conflict. That was normal for me." My children and I are more this way as well. We like to debate things. My childrens' spouses - all of them - are conflict avoidant, so it has been a learning experience for all of us, for us to tone ourselves down and listen quietly, and to find a balance in which it's safe and comfortable for them to address differences.

I think it's working pretty well. One of my daughters-in-law, a pretty quiet one, actually argued a point with me recently, convincing me she was completely right. I was really impressed and so grateful she felt she could disagree with me without fearing any negative consequences.

Anyway, my parenting mistakes are more obvious to me now, and my job is to try to undo some of them, and to learn how to be asupportive parent to my adult children, and a good mother-in-law.

I'm glad we chatted, and I look forward to more input from you.

@CreationEdge Good decision financially. Teachers are definitely underpaid. It will be interesting to see how you like homeschool. I hope you'll share your experiences with us.