Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya - 2013-02-14

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4:16 AM

@goldPseudo apart from bani israel what they were called?

as far as i know, they weren't. been a while since i've read the pentateuch, so i can't be sure.

the covenant with Israel was highly national - the Mosaic Law was the law of the children of Israel.

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. // And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

4:37 AM

I had read somewhere that the armaic version of gospel contains word "mushalam"

i don't know that word.

its similar to =Muslim =Mu+SLM

Shin-Lamedh-Mem is the triconsonantal root of many Semitic words, and many of those words are used as names. The root itself translates as "whole, safe, intact". * Š-L-M * S-L-M * Š-L-M * Salam "Peace" Arabic ' (), Maltese Sliem, Hebrew Shalom (), Ge'ez sälam (ሰላም), Syriac šlama (pronounced Shlama, or Shlomo in the Western Syriac dialect) () are cognate Semitic terms for "peace", deriving from a Proto-Semitic '. The word salām is used in a variety of expressions and contexts in Arabic and Islamic speech and writing. "Al-Salam" is one of the 99 names of God in Islam, and also a mal...

I am sure its there but cant find the exact location

i don't have an aramaic copy of the gospels handy, unfortunately.

Internet

Its a fact that its present in gospel , jesus calls his disciples that in armaic

but i guess it may be in torah too

but armaic\hebrew torah needs to be scanned for that

do hebrew and/or aramaic even create form iv participles the same way as arabic?

just because two words sound the same doesn't mean they're related.

9 hours later…

2:10 PM

@A.Hakim Asalam Alaikum Welcome to chat

how are you doing today?

2:26 PM

@El'endiaStarman The Greek letterforms you use in maths are a thousand years or so out of date, though. The second letter of the Greek alphabet is Veeta. If you want the B sound, you write mu pi.

Actually, probably closer to two-and-a-half thousand years out of date. They're based on Classical Greek.

3 hours later…

5:45 PM

assalamalaikum

@goldPseudo similarity and etymology of words tell a lot about how words evolve and can also solve many tracing problems in history

@Ali true, but tracing etymology is more complex than simply comparing the phonetics of two words.

False friends are pairs of words or phrases in two languages or dialects (or letters in two alphabets) that look or sound similar, but differ significantly in meaning. An example is the English embarrassed and the Spanish embarazado, which does not in fact mean "embarrassed" but rather "pregnant". Often, there is a partial overlap in meanings, which creates additional complications: e.g. Spanish lima, meaning "lime" (the fruit) and "lime" (the calcium-based material), but also "file" (the tool). Only when lima is used to mean a file does it become a false friend to the English "lime"....

and words should not be viewed as just group of characters but should be viewed by the meanings it expose

e.g Islam

The root of the word "Islam" itself is generations older than prophet muhammad pbuh

the s-l-m root is ancient. can you say the same for this particular construct?

So what my hypothesis is that the word "Mushalam" had to be present in previous scriptures as it gives an idea about "One who Submits to Allah(Al-Salam)" and we know this idea existed since Adam

Muslim= Mu+SLM

MUSHALAM= Mu+SLM

AND jESUS said: Not my will but only God's Will shall be done (John)

which is nothing but submitting your will to God ALONE

what does the mu- prefix even mean in Aramaic? does it work the same as the mu- prefix in Arabic?

5:55 PM

EVEN jesus said that his own will does not matter but only ALLAH(THY) will matters and should be followed

@El'endiaStarman what is your view?

@goldPseudo most probably

@Ali based on what?

distributional similarity

a word is known by the company(context) it keeps

similarly we can extend this to: group of characters

have you ever taken a course in linguistics?

ya

NLP

neuro-linguistic programming?

5:58 PM

NATURAL LANG proceess

..

like computaional linguistics

and I am doing PhD in allied areas though

do you know armaic or hebrew

?

I just want to find out any variants of "mushalam"\ "muslim" occurs there or not

-1

Q: What Did Moshe (Moses) and his followers call themselves in the torah?

Wanted to know how the word "Jew" or "Yehudim" came to be used for people following prophet Moshe in the Torah, did he coin the term and does it bear a geographic relevance? And if Moshe did not call himself a Jew then what he described himself and his followers in the Torah? Update(On why it is...

history names moshe-rabbeinu am-yisrael-jewish-nation pentateuch-chumash

i don't know either; i learned the hebrew alphabet so i could read, but i'm hardly fluent.

don't know aramaic from a hole in the ground.

please read carefully the above question i am not intrstd in bani israel

"but this name itself does not signify the lofty status of the followers of Moshe during biblical times" did the followers of Moses even have a lofty status?

of course i guess there has to be at least a small subset who were much devoted?

as i said, the Mosaic Law was the law of Israel.

6:09 PM

even Quran says that Allah had chosen them

In Islam we have different labels like: MUSLIM, Mumin, Muhajir , Ansar

at the time of prophet pbuh

the Qur'an was revealed to all mankind. the Torah was revealed to the people of Moses (i.e. the children of Israel) explicitly.

Ya even the Injeel

El'endia Starman

@Ali My view with regards to what?

Allah had chosen them , Now they are not but now only Islam remains the only perfected, and complete religion for entire mankind

My hypothesis quoted earlier @El'endiaStarman

So what my hypothesis is that the word "Mushalam" had to be present in previous scriptures as it gives an idea about "One who Submits to Allah(Al-Salam)" and we know this idea existed since Adam
Muslim= Mu+SLM
MUSHALAM= Mu+SLM
AND jESUS said: Not my will but only God's Will shall be done (John)
which is nothing but submitting your will to God ALONE

25 mins ago, by Ali

EVEN jesus said that his own will does not matter but only ALLAH(THY) will matters and should be followed

Do you know armaic \ hebrew?

@El'endiaStarman

El'endia Starman

Ah, I see. Well, linguistically, I know very, very little about ancient Biblical languages, so I can't speak to that effect. Theologically, do remember that I don't believe that Islam existed until the sixth to seventh century, so the idea that Islam predates Christianity, let alone Judaism, seems silly to me.

6:23 PM

Jesus using the word "Muslim" from Armaic bible in Luke 6:40:

Let us look at Luke 6:40 from my N.I.V. Bible "A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher."

Now taken from Aramaic Bible here it is in the language:

"Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo."

Now Arabic translation of Luke 6:40 will be Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."

Muslim means obedient to one god, o when Jesus said if you are a good MUSHLAM, means if you are obedient to god then you can be above your teacher.

El'endia Starman

> A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher. (Luke 6:40, ESV)

Prophet Muhammad was NOT a founder, but a MESSENGER of Islam

The founder of Islam is actually Allah Almighty. Allah chose Muhammad (pbuh) to be the final Prophet sent to this world to give both a warning and glad tidings.

@El'endiaStarman The word "islam" can be translated as "surrender/submission" (to God). A "muslim" can be translated as "one who surrenders/submits" (to God).

According to The Quran, everything in the universe, willingly or unwillingly has ultimately surrendered to God, thus the basic concept of islam/surrender/submission is as old as the universe itself:

Do they seek other than the system of God, when all things in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly have surrendered to Him, and to Him they will be returned. [3:83]

Say: "We believe in God and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. [3:84]

And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to God in the least and God will reward the grateful. [3:144]

A very important point here @El'endiaStarman @goldPseudo , The Quran specifically mentions the term "muslim" for those before prophet Muhammad, including: Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Jacob, and the companions of Jesus. [see 2:128, 2:131, 3:67, 3:52, 5:111, 10:72]. Thus, the prophet Muhammad was not the founder of islam/submission, but simply continued this universal message as one of many messengers of God.

El'endia Starman

The Quran was written several centuries at minimum after all those people. Why shouldn't I believe that Muhammad just retconned the story?

"Islam" in its literal sense just means "submission [to God]".

Firstly Quran was and is present in the Heavens in Lauh Al Mahfuz even before the creation. It was revealed in piece wise fashion. And Muhamad pbuh was an illiterate shepherd who couldnt have the ability to retconn

6:36 PM

the argument is that the concept of Islam (meaning submission to God) has been around a lot longer than (for lack of a better term) Muhammadan Islam.

2

Muhammad pbuh is just the last prophet in a long chain of prophets..

The Quran specifically mentions the term "muslim" for those before prophet Muhammad, including: Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Jacob, and the companions of Jesus. [see 2:128, 2:131, 3:67, 3:52, 5:111, 10:72].

@El'endiaStarman the Quran was written even in the time of the Prophet

Fi Amanallah

El'endia Starman

@AlUmmat I mean the story of the Torah and Injeel.

@El'endiaStarman oh ok

that is interesting, how can their authenticity be trusted?

@El'endiaStarman ok I see what you mean now

El'endia Starman

6:45 PM

@AlUmmat Very good question because the same objection has been leveled against both, especially the Injeel. I have seen arguments that details like Jesus' death and resurrection were retconned into the story some time after His death. The main counter is that the Injeel was written within a century of Jesus' death, and there were still many surviving witnesses to confirm or deny the claims.

@El'endiaStarman I see

El'endia Starman

Alright, I gotta head to class. Talk to you all later!

@El'endiaStarman ok

:)

7:08 PM

@ali you may have better luck explaining what you're looking for in that question; as written, i don't think you're going to get any answer better than "Bani Israel"

Hi

@goldPseudo Do you know much about Forex?

Online Forex.

@Noah hello

Hey, @AlUmmat

How are you doing?

@Noah Alhamdulillah

5

Q: Is buying or selling forex, commodities and stock indices halal in Islam?

Websites like eToro offer services where you can buy and sell currencies, commodities(gold, silver, oil, etc.) and indices(SPX500, NSDQ100, DJ30, UK100, FRA40, GER30, etc). It's basically an online trading platform. The way it works is that, for example, you buy gold or euro at a price from the...

islamic-rules trading

Do you know much about online forex? LOL

Didnt get any answer for that.

7:19 PM

@Noah no, I am not familiar

I thought you asked goldPsudo that question before?

Yeah, have got new ones.

ok

@Noah i've been sorta skimming info on the halalitude of various investment platforms, but i've not really looked into forex in particular.

So here's the scenario.

i think it's fundamentally okay under the silver for gold rules, as long as transactions are immediate.

7:21 PM

But what about margins?

margin selling is where it gets tricky, since that's a lot more like gambling.

Umm. I have sift through a lot of Google pages about this. I didnt get a definite answer. Some say it's okay, some say it's not.

"There is nothing wrong with selling silver for gold, hand to hand, giving more silver than gold, but no credit is allowed"

But nearly all the systems available in the market have margin builtin.

yeah, it's a surprisingly complex issue when you look into it.

"silver for gold" is a fair analog for any disparate currencies though, which is fundamental to the forex market.

7:27 PM

So I dont know what to do. Advice?

i've not really looked into the mechanics of forex, but fundamentally there's nothing wrong with trading an amount of one currency for an amount of another currency (and then trading it back later for a profit).

But it has this large sum of leverages.

margin trading encroaches on a different issue, namely selling things that you don't actually have.

Which makes it?

either discouraged or forbidden; i can't remember offhand how strong the evidences are against it.

7:32 PM

But it also has this small fee attached to it. It's just a one time fee.

If I want to open a trade I have to pay a small sum of money to the company. Now if my leverages are high, the fee is also high.

"I saw the people buy foodstuff randomly (i.e. blindly without measuring it) in the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and they were punished (by beating), if they tried to sell it before carrying it to their own houses."

Now, here nothing is random. I read news, do some analysis and then place an order.

that's why i've refrained from saying it's clearly haram.

there's some open question as to what even counts as "taking posession of it" when dealing with online trading.

since it rarely if ever involves actual transfer of physical goods.

Could you look into it a little more.

to be safe, it's probably better to avoid margin trading at all.

7:38 PM

You can actually open a free demo account on eToro.

@goldPseudo I cannot. They dont give you that option.

It's more like predefined in the system.

aren't there other platforms?

Assalamoalekum

I have a question.

@devWaleed Wa Alaikum salam

@devWaleed how can I help?

How can I answer a person who believe that there is no God, and this universe came out itself

@goldPseudo Could be. But they dont seem to offer the same kind of features. Here you can learn stuff from other traders. You can even copy a trade someone else has opened.

7:42 PM

@devWaleed that would be diffrent, because you won't be answering the question there, but then be debating, so there are different answers and stuff

And I am not sure if other platforms have leverage free trading support.

@devWaleed you can say, how can things come into existence, with so much detail to there not be a God?

I check this on the website of an Islamic bank, some where in the middle east, and they seem to offer the same kind of leverages.

:o ok

that was just a random question actually

but

They claimed thier banking system was Islamic.

7:44 PM

@devWaleed to back that up you can say, how can a computer come into existence, with all of it's complexity, without a human being? though we are not likning God to Human or the other way round

Is there any verse in Quran that says that We cannot produce Earthquakes ?

@devWaleed "Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire? Then would you be responsible for him?"

:( what?

Is there any verse in Quran that says that We cannot produce Earthquakes ?

etoro.com/why-etoro/islamic-account.aspx

@goldPseudo etoro.com/why-etoro/islamic-account.aspx

@devWaleed We can do almost anything if God wills it, just like a Mosquito can harm a whole nation by God's will

7:45 PM

Could you skim through this quickly.

@AlUmmat but now adays my friends(Muslim) are creating a negative impact regarding science

@devWaleed yes, because it is God's will

They says its impossible, I say its possible according to current science...

thats why I asked

Is there a verse in Quran about these natural effects?

controlled only by Allah ?

@devWaleed You can take the Story of the people of Loot (لوط) as example, they were destroyed because they refused to take women, in other words they were homosexual, hence they were destroyed because of this

@Noah that page pretty much confirms what i said; "Immediate buying and selling without delay" (i.e. no margin trading). the "Islamic online trading" account only appears to eliminate interest, it's still your own responsibility to make sure any individual transaction is valid.

if the mecahnics of margin trading involves an actual transfer of currencies to your account before selling them, then it's valid as far as I know (which it looks like they do)

7:52 PM

@devWaleed today people and things, the earth, the atmosphere, is being destroyed because People (scientists) think they are God, hence they start meddling in things without knowledge or considering the consequences. that isn't the only reasons why destruction is spreading, but just one

because at that point, it's clearly a loan of currency; you're borrowing x dollars of a currency, and you repay x dollars of that same currency later (regardless of how much the value of the currency fluctuates in the interim)

@devWaleed but this all goes back to God's/Allah's will

it looks like the Islamic trading platform covers that as well, but it may be worth looking into deeper.

But dont I pay something for that loan, like extra money?

@goldPseudo

@devWaleed do you understand?

7:55 PM

@Noah "We do not charge any commissions or fees for account management"; again, exactly what they mean by that is vague, and would need deeper looking into.

@goldPseudo And if it doesnt, does it make it haram?

@AlUmmat What do you mean? When did Science claim to be God?

@devWaleed I didn't say science, I said scientists, and I do not mean all, and this also may be subconsciously, and it is also how it is viewed by others because of how they act and their actions

What do you understand by the word Kianat (universe) ? You know there are multiverses?

@Noah as i read it, they're making their profit on the actual transaction (i.e. when you use the loaned currency to buy the new currency), not on the loan itself.

7:58 PM

Can't we create a planet?

@goldPseudo Which is not Riba, right?

@devWaleed If you mean many worlds then yes, I know

@Noah as long as it's not for the same currency and transacted immediately, i know nothing against it.

@devWaleed only if God allows and wills it.

@goldPseudo You can't buy or sell the same currency. Do you think i would be okay using thier platform?

8:01 PM

People in the beginning thought that Lunar Eclipse occurs due to some dark devil and started to worship Moon, But the science proved that its just a Lunar Eclipse, Similarly, If we think creating a planet is impossible, its just because we don't have enough data, in future we might be able to create a planet or Galaxy! and Yes of course on Allah's will!

@Noah from the page you showed me, it looks legit.

@noah you may want to compile some of the questions you asked into Q&A for the site; more specific (and thus more easily answerable) than the general "is forex halal" question you linked earlier.

(you can even self-answer them if you think my rambling was helpful :) )

@devWaleed see this verse from the Quran "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! if it be ye can pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, pass ye! Not without authority shall ye be able to pass!" Surat Arrahman Ayah 33

@goldPseudo But they dont charge a fix amount on the transaction. If the margin is high, you pay a little extra.

@Noah do you actually mean margin? or are you talking about the spread?

@goldPseudo What's the difference? sorry.

8:09 PM

the spread would be the difference between the bid/ask price.

so, for example, if the market is buying at $25, and selling at $30, the spread would be $5.

The spread for x100 is one amount and the spread for x200 is another, and so on.

I dont know if am explaining this correctly.

margin trading, on the other hand, involves credit; that's borrowing currency in order to sell it high and hoping to buy it back when prices go down (or vice versa)

Here's what happens.

In the first picture I try to buy EURO with a risk level of 100, int the second I change that to 200. At the bottom you can see the spread, etc.

user image

user image

user image

@goldPseudo

this is the first time i've ever heard of "risk level" for forex. is that just an eToro thing?

8:25 PM

No it's a general thing. This is actually the margin thing, I guess. If you see with x200 I get 8000 units with the same 40 dollars.

i have no idea what that number is even supposed to represent.

it's completely outside of any understanding i have of forex, i can't really help you there.

Okay, let me explain the risk level to you.

@goldPseudo etoro.com/trade/leverage-and-margin.aspx

This page explains the different parts. Risk Level is I think the leverage.

@goldPseudo I really appreciate your help. I think we are getting there.

that's only used for margin trading.

I think so.

"our revenues come strictly from spreads"

8:35 PM

Does it posses a problem acorrding to Sharia Law?

margin and spread are not the same thing; where in the Islamic account are they even charging for leverage?

I dont know.

then what's the problem?

So there's no problem.

?

I mean why the amount of spread changes in the second picture?

hard to tell from just those images; does the spread change because of the change to the risk level, or is it just changing because you're trying to buy twice as much?

spread can change depending on the amount transacted; if selling is done in lots, you might get a better deal on a single lot of x1000 than you would on two lots of x500.

alternatively, if there's a lot of currency offered at a higher price, but only a small amount offered at a low price, the price would go up if you buy more.

8:42 PM

Becuase I am buying twice the amount, which is related with the Risk Level.

I mean if I change the risk level, the money increases, so I can get more units. And hence the spread changes.

that's just because you're borrowing more money, so you can buy more units.

Okay. So you think I would okay using thier system?

i think so. i'm having trouble understanding what those numbers are supposed to mean on your screenshots.

I'll need to compile this into a few hundred questions and post them on the website. :)

Which ones?

the risk level ones.

8:48 PM

That's the leverage.

but buying more, or less, units of any lot-based stock, it makes sense that it would affect the spread.

sorry, my bad; i meant the risk level screenshots. i'm just having trouble parsing what the rest of the numbers are supposed to mean.

"amount" is odd

Okay.

i don't know much at all about margin trading, so i'm just having trouble figuring out what exactly setting each amount is supposed to represent.

Amount is what goes from your account. Your own real money.

So in the screenshot, I am investing 40. The rest comes from eToro.

is there a risk level of x1?

8:51 PM

No, there's a risk level of x2.

That's the lowest risk level they have.

odd.

If there was a risk level of x1, there would be no need for margin trading. Right?

that's how i'm understanding it, yeah.

Asalam Alaikum @Ali , please read this to here Concerning about your question , judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/26263/… , on Judaism.SE

i really don't think i can help you any further without really knowing the eToro system in-depth.

8:54 PM

@goldPseudo Okay. But you think I would be fine using thier system, assuming all the information is correct.

I know I took many hours of your precious time.

i'm glad to help.

as i said, islamic investment can be a rather complex topic. i've barely scratched the surface.

Based on your understanding you think there's no Riba in their margin trading, right.

from their description on the Islamic account page, it looks like they have that covered. not sure how, because it doesn't go in-depth.

for all i know, it could just be that "islamic trading account" grays out the leverage button preventing you from ever activating it.

You mean the Risk Level?

but there's nothing wrong with margin trading per se, so long as the loan of base currency is transacted immediately in full, and in equal amounts.

8:58 PM

There's no leverage button.

for all i know, they'll rename the "risk level" button to "leverage" and then gray it out then :p

i'm operating on incomplete information; pure conjecture from here on out.

@goldPseudo I know. But they do seem to be giving you the money in full.

@goldPseudo I think that's what they do right?

Why dont you open a demo account? You get like 10000 bonus.

It doesnt take you more than 2 minutes.

maybe later; i personally prefer precious metals to forex.

Is that some sort of trading platform?

Or are you talking about the real things?

i do like physical silver/gold.

there's online platforms, but i'm not invested into any of them right now.

if i do go online, my priority right now is something that offers TFSA.

which i don't think eToro does.

9:05 PM

I dont think so.

I think that's just for Canadians.

yeah. but getting money tax-free is a big selling point for me :)

:)

@goldPseudo Brother thank you for the help. May Allah reward you immensely. May Allah give you 100 kids:)

@Noah i was hoping to keep it down to an even dozen, but i appreciate the sentiment :)

Are you even close?

@goldPseudo

nope.

if i've got more than zero, i'll be not only surprised, but confused.

9:16 PM

I asked my mom to find me a wife in 2 years. And she was like what?

my mom wouldn't know the first thing to look for.

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